Sorry, I am just using this as a way to post pics of BD on another site.....

Ill take imput here as well though. The stuff is supposed to be virgin. Temps are around 70, maybe a tad higher.

The water I added at the bottom of the one sample is perfectly clear, no soapy layer whatsoever.........

Im thrown off by the cloudiness.................

The sticker is what I dont want to have to take off....................

Bad news........

I took out a sample, and heated it up to 250° for 2 minutes......I have now cooled that sample to well below the cloud point of the samples taken straight out of the drum.

This means WATER. And therefore BAD biodiesel.

I spent $425 on three drums of this swill. The company is on the biodiesel board, and a big time producer. Producer of CRAP. My beef is not with leoco, but biotanefuels.com.

Anyway, there it is. Dont use BD thats cloudy.

Nary of a drop of this crap did the truck, or tdi, or tractor see.........glad for it.

Anyway, ill keep you all advised....................

Oh, and naturally, I started a thread over at the big time bio forums (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/679103578/r/209105778#209105778)........

couple questions:

I assume both bottles are plastic and both are the same fuel, and cloudy?

When you heated the fuel did you hear any "snap, crackle, pop"? if not, the problem is not water.

Did you stir the fuel while heating to prevent any "pockets" from remaining in the fuel (towards the bottom).

You called it "virgin" but I assume this is B100?

How long has it sat since you added the H2O?

Since the bottle (appears) to be plastic, could this be part of the problem. Fill a glass jar and put it next to the plastic and compare.

Did you contact the seller about this?

Sorry for all the questions. I, too, am concerned since I have been comparing Blue Sun B100 to what I make from wvo.

couple questions:

I assume both bottles are plastic and both are the same fuel, and cloudy? Both bottles are the same plastic, and both are the same fuel. I did this exact same test with the last drum I got, and it was completly clear down to the high 30's.




When you heated the fuel did you hear any "snap, crackle, pop"? if not, the problem is not water.

Did you stir the fuel while heating to prevent any "pockets" from remaining in the fuel (towards the bottom). I cannot say that I heard any snapping or anything, but I was not really listening for it.......Yes, I did stir.



You called it "virgin" but I assume this is B100? It is supposed to be virgin, but I have some doubts. All the paperwork does indicate that it is virgin B99. (b99 for the tax break)

How long has it sat since you added the H2O? It has sat for about 5 days since I added water. But lets not pay attention to that sample. I added water for the sole purpose of seeing if the wash was complete or needed.

Since the bottle (appears) to be plastic, could this be part of the problem. Fill a glass jar and put it next to the plastic and compare. I attached a pic of the boiled sample here......Completly clear. Even when I open the valve to the drum, I can see that the fuel is not clear.

Did you contact the seller about this?

Sorry for all the questions. I, too, am concerned since I have been comparing Blue Sun B100 to what I make from wvo. Yes, I have been calling both the seller and the maker. The maker is going to get a sample from the extra drums of the seller. The drums were no more than 2 weeks old, stored indoors.

Even when I added 75% diesel to the mix, it did not seem to clear up at all.

Possibly a dirty drum snuck thorugh.........I have another that I could open to see, but I didnt want to open that one until I was ready to use it..........

Upon closer inspection, it seems that the BD is clearing somewhat.

I can see some fallout that swishes around when I shake the sample a bit.......This has to be water..................?

Manny, if you really think its water, why not try drying it? spread it out on a cookie sheet or two, and let it sit so the water can evaporate, and then check it.

I heated a sample up to 250° and it is a lot clearer than the non heated samples to a lot lower temps.......I think that means water, but the maker dosent think so. (Or at least he says)

the fallout may be water but if you boiled and stirred it, it is probably glycerin. You did the correct process for dehydration but if you heat it to 130*F for 15 minutes and then let it set still for a day the water will settle to the bottom. If you heat it above 140*F the remaining methanol will evaporate out. Heat over 212*F and stir for 10-15 minutes you should hear the "snap, crackle, pop" from boiling H2O.

My guess is that the problem is not water but either glycerin or some contaminate or IT WAS MADE OF WVO.

I am sure you will find out eventually from the maker. Perhaps ship them a sample?

So are we talking about the last 1 gallon of a 55 gallon barrel? How much of this 1 gallon is water. 1/2 cup. So are we talking about .045 % water?

Don't they use water to wash bio?

The sample that was heated to 250° shows no signs of anything falling out, and it is perfectly clear down to the high 30's. The fallout that I am talking about is coming from the other samples that were straight out of the drum, untouched.

The maker of the BD was going to get a sample from more drums that were from the same batch and take it to his lab. My guess is that he will find his samples to be clear because they got a chance to sit and settle out, just like my sample......Who knows where well go from there........

Finally got it swapped out..........

I havent opened the new drums, but if they arent clear Im going to sh!t myself.

Planning on B50.

It would be useful to do the same testing to this that you did to the earlier batch. Also, I would suggest keeping samples of each drum you buy with labels including dates, supplier/manuf/ and source (all soybean?) I bet that over time you will see changes and differences in color between sources. BTW, a small amount of water will not be a problem. Most petro diesel has some water, and our filters seperate it. Some additives make it drop out and others emersify it. Some guys acutally run water/meth as a fuel for competition. Over the years, many, many home brew biodiesel guys have made their's without water wash. I have been told that most professional BD processors use SVO and do water wash to remove all remaining contaminates and reduce methanol. Water wash does, however, raise the ability of BD to contain more H2O. Just food for thought. . . . . good luck.

Ive always heard that water in the fuel is bad.? Not so much with BD?

I got a few private emails from folks on the biodiesel.infopop site, and some of them had good info. I was told that the place where I buy my BD uses animal fat. It is considered "virgin" so they can do it for the taxes.

I poured some in this morning. I first took it out to have a quick look see in a plastic bottle. It was clear at ~70°. I was in a pinch for time, and the truck was empty, so I added 5g. Pry running around B50. I put the sample in the fridge, and it did have a higher cloud point. I found out that this is common with animal fats BD. I dont care, as long as it is spec.

I do have a few more tests to do on it......I ended up buying 3 drums, and I pry dont use that much diesel in 6 months...........Ill be running high blends.

Manny;

Water is not good but a small amount is not bad and has been used for years for increasing diesel power. In the old days water injection was used to increase compression in a cylinder (H2O does not compress so it reduces the remaining volumn being compressed) and to reduce temp. Now days Water/Methanol injection is used for similar purposes, but primarily for competition.

I am sure you have seen threads with pics of rusted fuel filters. #2 has water most of the time. I have never seen any seperated in the bottom of a tank or filter. Never seen any pics or heard of anyone gettin SES due to water in filter. I agree with the emulsification additive use because it shoots any H2O out of the system and there has been no records of this harming engines. As a result, a small amount of H2O in BD will be less of a problem than in the #2. lubricity will reduce/eliminate risks of rust. The CP3 and injectors are the largest rust risk areas that I am aware of. And BD should be a huge risk reduction (if there is any risk).

Animal fat is, IMHO, not virgin. My guess is they mixed uncooked animal fat with SVO before processing and so called it virgin. They would have to heat it up to liquify it befor titration and processing. Animal fat probably has more H2O in it than SVO. I am SURE it has more trash that sinks to the bottome with the glycerine. It will have a higher cloud temp for sure. I also expect it to be less clear based on my experimentations.

I have compared chinese WVO with Wendy's WVO. Huge difference since chinese has much more animal meat and is cooked more. The chin is darker, has more debrie, requires more lye (in catalyst) and has a lot more H2O. So far the Wendy's has worked and though a little darker than Blue Sun (Soybean) it is just as clear. The chin has not yet been successful due to all the contaminates, H2O, etc. . . including increased fatty acid still floating after processing (still have not found the correct catalyst for it).

You can run your barrels straight this summer with no problems. As fall and winter approach I would look for BD made from SVO. This will reduce the cloud temp so it should require less cold weather additives.

Thanks for the advice Deadeye.

I got a load of tax rebate papers from the seller of the BD, and it is interesting stuff. It is from the gov't. Heres a quote RE the definition of "virgin" oil. "Agri biodiesel (derived solely from virgin oils, including esters derived from virgin vegetable oils from corn, soybeans, sunflower seeds, cottonseeds, canola, crambe, rapeseeds, safflower seeds, ........ and from animal fats)

So somehow or another animal fats is qualifying as "virgin." But like I said earlier, it hardly matters to me as long as the BD is good.

RE water in the fuel......it just makes me nervous to pour something that is cloudy into the tank. The bad BD that I first got I cut with diesel 50/50. It was still very cloudy. It would have been interesting to know the water content in that stuff. IIRC the ASTM limit for water is .5%. I am currently doing homebrew tests with this new stuff for water content. It still seems to have a higher cloud point. This drum clouds at ~60 where as the last (bad) drums clouded at 85.

What do you think is a decent ratio for BD in the Duramax?

Tx

Tx

as usual the gov dumb. think about how/where they get animal fats and invision how virgin (clean) they are once butchered (besides, most slaughtered animals have been ******ed and are no longer virgins :joke: ).

I agree with your opinion regarding cloudy BD. Especially at 60*F :rant: .
None should cloud above 50*F even WVO-BD if processed.

If you could find a way to get it heated up substantially, H2O should settle but if gel it will not. That indicates either inaccurate titration or erronious processing. My guess, too much animal fat. If you are gonna use cloudy BD at +60*F I would agree with a 50/50 mix and try to keep the truck/fuel warm to reduce the gel so it will flow and not clog filters and injectors.

You might want to consider finding a supplier that only uses WVO or buy a gallon sample to experiment before you get the next 3 barrels. . . if it contains any animal fat.

given the cost of buying BD you have the right to demand a near perfect product. . .

I have heard that it is not at all uncommon for BD made from tallow/animal fats to have high cloud points. (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/679103578)

I took a sample, heated it, and compared it to an unheated sample. The one that was heated is clearer when compared. I dont get it. Water again?

I have heard that it is not at all uncommon for BD made from tallow/animal fats to have high cloud points. (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/679103578)

I took a sample, heated it, and compared it to an unheated sample. The one that was heated is clearer when compared. I dont get it. Water again?

I will read the link later but your statements are correct based on what I have read. That is why I like to make BD from WVO with minimal fatty acid as I can find. The more tallow/animal fat the higher temp at which it will gel. If I understand it correctly, the cloud point is the temp at which it begins to gel. BD made from WVO which includes animal fat will have a higher cloud point that the same WVO without any tallow. The heat causes the animal fat/tallow to 'de-gel' into a more liquid with less viscosity. You can go get a small sample of WVO from any fast food place, only a liter is necessary. When you look at it you will see a lot of mucky, thick gunk in it. If you drop the temp in the fridge it will become solid. If you heat it to over 100*F (maybe more depending on contents) it will turn into a very liquid bottle of oil, usually dark. Basically, the heat is just de-gelling the tallow so it will flow. Think about the bacon you have fried. When you put it in the pan it is white, solid and cold. Once it heats up it becomes a clearer color and liquid.

Yup. Youre right. I am off base when I refer to my fuel as having a cloud point, because cloud point acually means the temp where the fuel begins to gel. It pry gets visually cloudy long before this point........

After more time to observe my samples, I find that they are very close to identical as far as visual cloudiness. Good sign.

Cloud point isnt a big deal for me at all. This summer, temps will pry never even be below 50°, and even then Ill be blended. Living where I do, I can run this high melting point ester stuff just fine.

Gotta love the BD........:ro)