I was told by a certified diesel mechanic that the diesel fuel these days are lacking certain lubricants and thats why the truck needed a replacement injection pump. Granted the 91' Dodge had 120k + miles on her. Is there any validity to this. Is it safe to use on Duramax diesels? Any info would be much appreciated since I'm new to the Duramax family. Have been a Ram head for the last 7 trucks or 7 years and decided to come to the "Dark Side".

Simplisticly

All fuels have had the sulfur content removed from them over the past 10 or so years. The sulfur had acted as a lubricant. Using the additives puts other types of lubricants into the system, along with increasing the cetane levels.

You might want to try asking this in one of the appropriate forums. This is for forum questions and suggestions, in regards to the website. :)

Most people round here seem to run an additive. Can't hurt, seems to be the thinking behind it.
I have run Standyne Performance Formula and currently Powewr Service Diesel Kleen.

You might want to try asking this in one of the appropriate forums. This is for forum questions and suggestions, in regards to the website. :)are you sue?

We usually see a mod post with thi has been moved notated to it?

However I could be losing it...:confused:

Regarding supplemental fuel additization.. With respect to lubrication enhancement with fuel additization, it is a no-brainer; i.e. anything that helps in improving lubrication in our fuel system is a positive. Secondly, cetane boost is also a no-brainer.. (I can hear the firestorm beginning!) Here goes 'the rest of the story' with cetane boost..
A diesel fuel can have a cetane rating of 40 (federal minimum), which is adequate for our Duramax (and Ford, Cummins, etc.) So why bother raising the cetane index/number to a 45 or even 50 (with base 46 cetane)? In a gasoline engine ignition occurs once the spark plug initiates combustion. In a diesel, the ignition process is purely puressure, heat, self ignition.. Now, given that diesel fuel is a plethora of chemistries, SOME of that fuel has a cetane number of 20, some a cetane of 30 but indeed the majority of the mix is 40+ cetane. The diesel fuel is injected into the cylinder before the piston reaches top dead center. With untreated diesel fuel, the 20 and 30 cetane number diesel will begin ignition almost immediately, before the piston has reached top dead center, defeating some of the work being done by another cylinder on its down/power stroke. Certainly inefficient and actually robbing horsepower. On the other hand, cetane boost treated diesel fuel provides for consistent cetane number, with 99.999% of the fuel now at 40+ cetane number. When the injector inputs the fuel prior to top dead center, the fuel goes through a complete compression cycle and now explodes at the optimum point/timing to enable more complete recovery of all of the diesel fuel energy.. Results: a minimum of 5% or more increase in fuel effiency, more power, and resultant total fuel cost reduction...
So, to finally answer the question of "why spend money on cetane boost when our engines were only designed for a 40+ (well, our Duramax are optimum with 44-45 cetane) cetane; waste of money!"
This is one more reason why regular use of a quality fuel additive that contains cetane boost, lubricity enhancement, rust preventive, water emulsifier, and detergency to keep injector tips optimally clean is a win/win in that it very simply provides increase in fuel mileage/efficiency which more than offsets the cost of fuel additization.... Everything else included is free.......
If the cost of diesel fuel is $2.20/gallon and we save 5% in fuel used, that yields a gross savings of 11 cents/gallon. Subtracting the cost of diesel fuel treatment of 6 cents a gallon (Example: Primrose 405 @$6.00/12 ounce bottle, $0.50/ounce@.12ounce/gallon treat rate= $0.06/gallon treat cost) yields a net savings of $0.05 cents per gallon purchased.. Not bad especially considering all the other benefits that come along free...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
AV Lubricants Inc.
Columbus, Ohio
614-492-2000

So I guess Stanadyne is not what the doctor ordered then eh?

are you sue?

We usually see a mod post with thi has been moved notated to it?

However I could be losing it...:confused:
Yeah, it was in the forum questions and suggestions. They have moved a few others without leaving a shadow topic. It keeps the forums cleaner. We never us it on the forum I'm a mod on. We just PM telling the person the topic was moved.

Thanks George .... Centane boost makes sense, except I have not noticed improvement in fuel economy when using an additive with centane boost.

I have a 200 mile run that I do a regular basis and have detailed fuel records with consisent results. Sometimes I use Stanadyne Performance formula and sometimes no additive. At best, the fuel mileage improved up to .2 of a gallon on one trip, but this could be due to other variables. At around 20 mpg and a 5% improvement economy, I would expect to see a noticable 1 mpg improvement.

Does the fact that I do not see any material difference mean I am getting good quality fuel, performance wise?

(Note for JJ: Hand calculated mpg, filled to the rim, level ground, etc every time.)

Rearding your comment "Sometimes I use Stanadyne Performance formula and sometimes no additive. At best, the fuel mileage improved up to .2 of a gallon on one trip, but this could be due to other variables."
I did not say all cetane boosters provide the same level of performance increase I delineated....
The Primrose example I gave is a real world example. I do not mean to indicate that all diesel fuel additives provide this level of performance increase/fuel savings of my Primrose example...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Is there an independant test on which addititve is best?

We've had lots of opinions of what is best. An actual study, done?

There are no independent tests for diesel fuel additives that I am aware of. There are so many variations of diesel fuel additives (varying cetane improvement level, emulsify/not to emulsify, some with detergency, some without, etc.) that it would be quite an undertaking + variabilities of test vehicles, conditions would pose significant doubt in the ability to derive good data.. Add to this that there are no API or other governing bodies regularing/testing/setting standareds for fuel additives and one is left having to rely on data provided by either manufacturers or personal end user experiences... That said, some manufacters of diesel fuel additives *will* guaratantee their products will provide performance increase/cost savings in excess of the cost of the diesel fuel treatment. Some diesel fuel treatment manufacturers have been around for many years, sell fuel treatment by the tank cars to commercial/government/military end users who have spent serious time and energy to confirm the additives cost justification and performance advantages; unfortunately they won't share their data, their competetive 'edge' with John Q public!
George Morrison, STLE CLS

I also use Power Service Diesel Kleen primarily it quietens the diesel knock considerably but also because Wal-mart carries it for only $11.96 for a 3 quart bottle. That's half the cost of Stanadyne.

P.S. Diesel Kleen will boost cetane by either 3 or 6 depending on the mixture ratio you choose to use.

Thanx George. Maybe someday......

- Cetane improvers also destabilize the fuel. If overdone, this can lead to rough running and excessive generation of asphaltines. Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel is more susceptible to destabilization than current low sulfer diesel blends.

- The duramax engine is about 97% efficient. There are only so many btu's in the fuel and the engine extracts nearly all of them. Given this, you will not see a great improvement in fuel mileage with any additive. You may see a slight bump in mileage initially if your fuel injectors are dirty - after that, you probably won't notice any gain in fuel efficiency (with any additive)

- The only additive that you need to run in the summertime is a lubricity additive (in the winter you may also need a winter additive to lower gel point, etc.) There is a new fuel standard that was supposed to kick in jan 2005 - but lubricity additives co-mingled with jet fuel in the pipelines so that they banned adding of lubricity additives at the refineries. Net is that some distribution points have the ability to additize and some don't - so they get a "kitchen pass" for a while (and the injector replacements are skyrocketing...) This probably won't get straightened out until jan 2006.

- jeff

dmax lover:
If I use 8 oz of FPPF Total Power And Cetane boost for every 25 gallons of gas, all year round, am I leaning toward a " overdone " amount?
I believe that this is what Kennedy has been doing since he started selling it, and that's why I bouoght a case of 4 bottles of Total power and 4 bottles of cetane boost, I mix 1 bottle of each into a 1 gallon container, and use in a measurable bottle. My 2002 runs great, good fuel econmy, runs great in winter, so far anyway....

If it works great for you now, that's good. When your area switches over to ultra low sulfur diesel - I would definitely shy away from using it.

A couple of points to consider...

1. The FPPF has no test results showing it improves lubricity to the levels required by our truck. (and neither does primrose.) Kennedy also runs 2 stroke oil and marvel mystery oil in his "mix".

2. The cetane improver will do nothing to improve your fuel economy. The fuel only has so much energy in it (btu's) - the cetane improver doesn't add energy and the truck extracts 97% of the energy in the fuel. You do the math - no way that the cetane improver will improve your mileage by 5% or more.

- jeff

Regarding the statement "The duramax engine is about 97% efficient. There are only so many btu's in the fuel and the engine extracts nearly all of them." The Duramax engine IS very efficient, however, as my previous post indicates, some of the diesel fuel we purchase is NOT as efficient as our engines. There is simply no way for the engine to compensate for the small sub 40 cetane fuel component of diesel fuel. Thus my lengthy description of the "pre-ignition" which occurs with some diesel fuel component; not all, just a small percentage of that fuel can be sub-par 40 cetane.. Increasing the cetane of THAT portion enables our super efficient Duramax engine to indeed derive ALL (well, okay, 99.99997%) of the energy from the fuel. Along with providing elevated lubricity, elimination of free water, fuel filter life extension, rust prevention, constant injector cleaning and smoother running.
In other words, the cetane boost, increased efficiency, improved fuel mileage is like a freebie! Why not???
George Morrison, STLE CLS

I just received some excellent information regarding cetane boost and its positive affect on state of the art diesel engines.
I have shared dyno data for the Ford Powerstroke 6 liter diesel engine which reflected a 6% increase in horsepower by simply going from a 36 cetane number to 40 cetane diesel. Correspondingly, going from a 40 cetane to 46.5 cetane increased horsepower 8% or 11 HP. Again, the net effect is the minimization of premature burn prior to TDC. It would be reasonable to expect similar advantages with our Duramax engine.
And frankly there are some pretty marginal fuels out there; certainly some fuel does not even meet minimum federal standards of cetane 40 which will not only cause poor fuel mileage but possible engine/component life shortening. Cetane boost (containing detergency, water emulsifying capability, and rust preventive) can be very inexpensive insurance especially considering it doesn't cost a net cent when one computes the increase in fuel mileage vs treat cost.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

What about those that are not emulsifiers?

Thanks for the info George Morrison. With all that said, which of all the products cover your statement? Not just listing one (being fair) but all the products that meet your standards.

FYI, I just got finished use a bottle from RollingBigPower (RBP), High Performance Diesel Additive (http://rollingbigpower.com/products/?sfID1=12&productID=5) which states the following:

"5% Cetane Gain, Increases Horse Power, cleans diesel fuel build-up off your injectors and lubricates them. This will also increase your fuel mileage. If your fuel mileage is low; It is most likely due to your injectors.
Water is welcome almost everywhere-except in your diesel engine. Water in diesel fuel damages injectors, corrodes tanks and fosters the growth of bacteria. Our highly-concentrated Diesel Power Additive removes unwanted water to protect your engine and keep it running smooth. Diesel Power is also an all in one package which contains lubricity. Increase your engine's performance by giving Diesel Power a place in your engine today."




THANKS!

anybody know where u can get a good price on a case of 3qt. jugs?

A quote from Chevron's website...


Combustion catalysts may be the most vigorously promoted diesel fuel aftermarket additive (see Chapter 7). However, the Southwest Research Institute, under the auspices of the U.S. Transportation Research Board, ran back-to-back tests of fuels with and without a variety of combustion catalysts. These tests showed that a catalyst usually made "almost no change in either fuel economy or exhaust soot levels."2 While some combustion catalysts can reduce emissions, it is not surprising that they don't have a measurable impact on fuel economy. To be effective in improving fuel economy, a catalyst must cause the engine to burn fuel more completely. But there is not much room for improvement. With unadditized3 fuel, diesel engine combustion efficiency is typically greater than 98%. And they also say...

Some are aggressively marketed with testimonials and bold performance claims that seem "too good to be true." So, as with any purchase, it is wise to remember the advice, caveat emptor – let the buyer beware.

It may be helpful to regard additives as medicine for fuel. Like medicine, they should be prescribed by an expert who has made an effort to diagnose the problem. And they should be used in accordance with the recommendations of the engine manufacturer and the instructions of the additive supplier. Sometimes indiscriminant use of additives can do more harm than good because of unexpected interactions.
Look here...
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel

Get educated and figure out how to seperate the wheat from the chaff...

Examples of doing more harm than good...

1. Adding too much cetane improver destabilizing the fuel - gums up the injectors and the fuel filter.
2. Adding too much lubricity additive actually yields less lubricity, not more!!

- jeff

Since I'm not smart enough to absorb all the scientific stuff........

What are some of the better additives out there? Its almost implied that there aren't any good additive out there.................?

Regarding the statements of Chevron/Southwest Research and a perfect world. Unfortunately, the diesel fuel we are currently using is not the Chevron fuels tested at SWRI... There is a significant amount of diesel fuel in the market place that does not meet current (low) cetane level Federal fuel standards.

Regarding: "1. Adding too much cetane improver destabilizing the fuel - gums up the injectors and the fuel filter."
Could you please elaborate on this? I work with end user companies that treat millions of gallons of diesel fuel a year with cetane improver/lubricity enhancer/detergency/dispercancy and we have not seen anything like what is described; actually, just the opposite: clean injectors and significantly extended fuel filter life by minimizing asphaltine clumping and constant detergent throughput to keep surfaces free of varnish/buildup.

"2. Adding too much lubricity additive actually yields less lubricity, not more"
Again, please elaborate; since our current diesel fuel has minimal lubricity and soon to have less, I would like to know the chemistry behind this statement.. Field experience has indicated a significant life extension of all wear components with lubricity enhancement. That said, proper treat rates are utilized but even in cases where we have known that "two asperins good, four must be better syndrome" is taking place, diminished return for cost to treat exists but no negative effects on fuel system component life or operation.
George Morrison, STLE CLS