There have been some questions and confusion as to which fluid to use in the Allison transmissions. The confusion stems from GM’s ability to keep us all in the dark when it comes to what fluids they recommend. Questions have come from many customers asking why Amsoil is recommending Universal ATF for the Allison transmission instead of Torque Drive which is the TES-295 clone of what Allison recommends which is Transynd and used to be the top recommendation from Amsoil for the Allison Transmission.

I made a call to the head of the drivetrain department at Amsoil and found out the following information. GM and Allison are partners or parent & child if you will, we all know that. Where the confusion is coming from is GM of course. When the Allison transmission is in a light duty truck (Duramax 2500/3500) GM warranties the transmission NOT Allison.

GM‘s fluid is DEX VI as the fluid for the Allison and that is what is installed in the Allison for the light duty market. When an Allison is installed in an industrial application such as a box van or small passenger bus that might service an airport, retirement facility or supplement a metropolitan area’s mass transit fleet, it is warrantied by Allison. Allison still recommends the TES-295 fluid especially where an Allison extended warranty is purchased by the end user.

Because GM has flip flopped back and forth between the two fluids. They said either or then said DEX VI only and that is the last official stance from GM is DEX VI. Amsoil must satisfy the OEM specs for warranty purposes when they recommend what fluid to use in the product lookup guides and on the phone. This is why you see and are being told to use Universal ATF because it meets the DEX VI requirements set forth by GM for DEX VI. Will any harm result in using Torque Drive? No not at all its still the TES-295 rated fluid that is for use in the Allison.

I was also told the he has seen a new manual that says DEX VI or TES-295 rated fluid. So GM may be changing their “official stance” once again in the near future and Amsoil will again recommend the Torque Drive when that happens. He told me he was in the process of getting in touch with the proper people at GM to confirm the either or so Amsoil could go back to recommending Torque Drive. I hope this helps clear up some of the muddy water in respect to what fluid to use and why Amsoil took Torque Drive off the product lookup guide recommendation.

Good post, thanks for the clarification the other day. I am confident that the TorqueD Drive is sufficient and GM will recommend it.

Good post, thanks for the clarification the other day. I am confident that the TorqueD Drive is sufficient and GM will recommend it.

Seeking clarification — last I knew, GM uses DEX VI in LT applications and the heavier GM applications with the 1000/2000 Allison use Transynd. Transynd is Allison's TES 295 fluid (along with several others, such as Mobil Delvac ATF). As far as I am aware, no Amsoil fluid is TES 295 rated by Allison or recommended by GM. Has that changed?

Seeking clarification — last I knew, GM uses DEX VI in LT applications and the heavier GM applications with the 1000/2000 Allison use Transynd. Transynd is Allison's TES 295 fluid (along with several others, such as Mobil Delvac ATF). As far as I am aware, no Amsoil fluid is TES 295 rated by Allison or recommended by GM. Has that changed?


I don't think he meant that GM or Allison would have it on their list recommended fluids. That doesn't happen unless there is money involved. I think what he meant was that GM would state that a TES-295 rated fluid or DEX VI are both acceptable fluids to run rather than just allowing DEX VI and not a TES-295 rated fluid (Transynd and others) as recommended fluids. It seems weird that even though they are parners or parent child to each other that GM would even accept Transynd as an acceptable fluid for warranty even though Allison put it in other applications of the same tranmission and is the only fluid accepted by the Allison extended warranty. Typical GM just like the whole thread on T-Case fluid and automatic t-case vs electonic t-case. Its not real clear to Joe public or even some dealers what to use.

Go to www.allisontransmission.com for fluid recomendations.
Also suspect that Amsoil would rather sell their non-synthetic than have anyone buy the Dexron or TranSynd. They will sell whatever.

Go to www.allisontransmission.com (http://www.allisontransmission.com) for fluid recomendations.
Also suspect that Amsoil would rather sell their non-synthetic than have anyone buy the Dexron or TranSynd. They will sell whatever.

Can you clarify that statement? What non-synthetic are you talking about?

My manual is not confusing at all...says use Dextron VI.

My manual is very clear: Dex VI, unless operated at temps of -40 F or colder. Then, you guessed it: Transynd/TES-295!

I have to assume that GM wouldn't expect the end user to change out xmsn fluid if temps warm up, so TES-295 must be OK. And, yes, I know what "assume" means.

The manual is pretty clear on trans fluid. But the manual also doesn't talk about Tes-295 fluid at all even though its what Allison recommends. The Amsoil website used to recommend The Torque Drive but now doesn't. After fielding some questions about it I decided to research and write the above article to help answer some of the questions. The other mention about the manual and it being not clear is where the transfer case is concerned.

Sorry to disagree, but the last time (about a month ago) that I read my manual it stated what I said: below -40, TES-295.

To make sure it wasn't my memory, I just scanned my owner's manual:

As for the xfer case:

I was having problems with the thumbnails, but it shows TES-295 for trans, DEX VI for the xfer case.

Ok I stand corrected your 2008 manual says TES_295 fliuds. Thank you. I never get to look at the newer manuals because I have a 2005.

I suppose we both could look at each other's year and that would probably explain alot!

In other words, on my behalf, oops!

Can you clarify that statement? What non-synthetic are you talking about?

What I am saying is- Amsoil would rather sell Amsoil's non-synthetic than to have someone buy a TES-295 flluid, or a Dexron IV/VI from another producer other than Amsoil.
I see no flip-flop at GM or Allison.
Dexron has always been acceptable in Allison on-highway products.
Dexron has had an orderly progression- Dexron to Dexron II, to Dexron III to Dexron IV, and now to Dexron VI. (Don't know what happened to V)
Dexron VI is good for Allison Transmissions past a certain S/N.
Good discusion is available at allisontransmission.com where you can download a Mechanic's Tips book free.
I just looked at Allison web site and don't see an Amsoil product qualified to the Allisoon TES-295 spec.; there others producers listed.

A few corrections, guys.

First, AFAIK, all Amsoil's products are "synthetic". They are mostly PAOs, but they do have a few group IIIs (not many). But they don't have any "non-synthetic" that I'm aware of. Amsoil wants to sell product for the very same reason as everyone else; survival and growth. I don't hold them in dis-regard for that; you shouldn't either.

Also, there is no Dexron IV. It went right from Dexron III(h) to Dexron VI. You can't just say "Dexron" without some grade classification, because "Dexron" is a brand line that is licensed from GM.

Dexron III(h) is no longer licensed, so it's techically no longer available. Many companies make fluids that are basically the same, because they have some ethical and morale principles. But other companies don't, so you could be cheated by getting a "D/M" or "Dex/Merc" fluid if you're not careful. Not ALL "D/M" fluids are bad; that is not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that once the licenses were no longer issued from GM and Ford, then the market is now open to "interpretation" of the fluids, rather that strict conformity.

Allison has created a new spec, TES-389, that basically covers what would have been considered DEX III products. Some manufactures, such as Mobil, have products that meet this spec, such as it's "ATF D/M".

Unfortunately, because GM no longer owns Allison (although it does still make the 1000 series tranny for use in it's light duty trucks), there's a big beef about what's "OK" to use. You'll see the TES-295 in current and future manuals, because in extreme cold (below -40 degF) the DEX VI doesn't flow as well as TES-295, and when in the elevated idle mode, the tranny can actually overheat! I'm not sure of all the particulars, but Crafty1 could enlighten us. But I do know that this is why you see that reference.

If you have a vehicle that calls for DEX VI, and you satisfy the cutoff criteria, then I'd use DEX VI until the warranty runs out. For me, with a 2006, that isn't really very long (36k miles). But for you guys with light duty trucks of '07 and up, you get a 100k mile powertrain warranty! I'd sure be using the fluids that GM specs, because they are the ones that will warrant the tranny, t-case, diff and engine!

How many of you operate in (-40 degF) temps anyway? Not very many. Be honest.

Dex VI is a very good fluid. It is not as good as TES-295, but nothing is, in reality. However, Dex VI is 2x as good as the old DEX III stuff.

I understand why Amsoil has to be careful with their fluid recommendations. But the reality is that either their ATF or the Torq-Drive will work. It's just that one has the legal backing of their warranty, and the other does not, for just a couple of years for the trucks, because of the wording in the owner's manuals. GM is known for some confusing and poorly written manuals, upon occasion. Amsoil was just trying to follow the recommendations per the manaul, depending upon year.

I don't use Amsoil products. But they do have very good quality products for a large variety of applictions. Use what they recommend, and you'll be covered by their warranty!

You Write a shit load ! but i like it :)

diarrhea of the keyboard ...

Okay, everyone, boil this down for me.
I have the "old" 2004.5 LLY with the Allison. Back then the recommendation was Dexron III.
I don't want to change over to a synthetic, so is Dexron VI what I should be using? I'm getting ready to change the external filter and do the pan dump of the fluid at 50K miles.

Please advise.

Okay, everyone, boil this down for me.
I have the "old" 2004.5 LLY with the Allison. Back then the recommendation was Dexron III.
I don't want to change over to a synthetic, so is Dexron VI what I should be using? I'm getting ready to change the external filter and do the pan dump of the fluid at 50K miles.

Please advise.

Just curious why don't you want to switch to Synthetic?

Transynd and the clone I sell are the best fluid you could want in your transmission. If you could get synthetic for nearly the same price as DEX VI you wouldn't want it in your trans?

A few corrections, guys.

Dexron III(h) is no longer licensed, so it's techically no longer available. Many companies make fluids that are basically the same, because they have some ethical and morale principles. But other companies don't, so you could be cheated by getting a "D/M" or "Dex/Merc" fluid if you're not careful. Not ALL "D/M" fluids are bad; that is not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that once the licenses were no longer issued from GM and Ford, then the market is now open to "interpretation" of the fluids, rather that strict conformity.



Just to back up a little bit of what DNewton said I put in bold from his quote - there is a statement from Allison's website that is noteworthy. I know this quote is in regards to TES 295 - but I think could apply to other fluids as well.

Quote from Allison website:
When seeking a fluid for your Allison transmission that is TES 295 approved do not fall to the claims of some companies that claim that their product is TES 295 approved. The statements infer that these products "are designed to meet", "are equivalent to", "meet or exceed", etc. When determining whether or not a fluid is TES 295 approved, look and/or ask for one of two things:

The Allison TES 295 approval number
The Allison Approved logo

Okay, everyone, boil this down for me.
I have the "old" 2004.5 LLY with the Allison. Back then the recommendation was Dexron III.
I don't want to change over to a synthetic, so is Dexron VI what I should be using? I'm getting ready to change the external filter and do the pan dump of the fluid at 50K miles.

Please advise.

NO! 04.5's are below the SN break that is compatible with Dex VI. Allison claims there is seal incompatability with Dex VI in earlier allisons.

NO! 04.5's are below the SN break that is compatible with Dex VI. Allison claims there is seal incompatability with Dex VI in earlier allisons.

Thanks. After doing a bit more research, that is what I found to be true.

NO! 04.5's are below the SN break that is compatible with Dex VI. Allison claims there is seal incompatability with Dex VI in earlier allisons.


What about the 2005 LLY Allison Tranny. The new synthetic compatible and is the Dex VI?

What about the 2005 LLY Allison Tranny. The new synthetic compatible and is the Dex VI?

check your transmission SN against the break point on the allison website. IIRC not all (maybe not any) 05 xmissions are above the SN break point.

check your transmission SN against the break point on the allison website. IIRC not all (maybe not any) 05 xmissions are above the SN break point.

Thanks for the info. Just checked the SN and the transmission is above the breakpoint. Guess I am OK with the Dex VI. Still having trouble digesting all the info regarding the new 295 spec and whether or not I can run it.

Perhaps someting has changed, but Allison has always recommended TES 295 fluids for any Allison 1000/2000 transmission — that has always been the safe alternative (and an advanced synthetic). As far as the Allison is concerned, the only changes along the way have been those by GM in moving through the DEX fluids.

For those who are interested, here is a link to a good article on the history and why of DEX VI. At least I was interested in it - even though it is an old article.

I think it worth a read.

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000384801.cfm?x=b11,0,w

Here are two excerpts from it below:

"General Motors has unveiled Dexron-VI, a new automatic transmission fluid for 2006 model year cars and trucks equipped with Hydra-Matic transmissions."

And:

"GM introduced the Dexron-III(H) spec just two years ago, but decided it needed to upgrade again to accommodate the Hydra-Matic 6L80, its first six-speed automatic transmission. As far as the transmission fluid is concerned, the biggest change with the 6L80 is that it puts clutch interfaces in direct contact with each other, rather than using a buffer such as a freewheeler between them. Having direct contact improves the speed and efficiency of power handoffs between clutches, but it also requires greater precision to keep those interactions consistent."

Also, this is a good PDF from Allison's website as well I think is a good read.
http://www.allisontransmission.com/servlet/DownloadFile?Dir=publications/pubs&FileToGet=SA5429EN.pdf

Thanks for the info. Just checked the SN and the transmission is above the breakpoint. Guess I am OK with the Dex VI. Still having trouble digesting all the info regarding the new 295 spec and whether or not I can run it.

If you have an Allison transmission you can run it period. It is the fluid Allison uses and recommends in their transmissions.

NO! 04.5's are below the SN break that is compatible with Dex VI. Allison claims there is seal incompatability with Dex VI in earlier allisons.

Then what Dex is recommended for the 03 Allison?

Then what Dex is recommended for the 03 Allison?

Use a TES-295 rated fluid and don't worry about what Dex to use. I can get the Amsoil Torque Drive for you at wholesale.

great great information from dirtbikindad, thanks for info, really appreciated here, i will PM shortly



Diego

I bought a new 03 3500 duelly and put 3000 miles on it and went to an Allison dealer and had the Dex dropped and transynd installed along with a deep pan and appropriate internal filter. That thing ran so good- smoothest trans I ever drove. One important thing to remember is that some fluids are not compatible. Allison did a complete flush when they switched fluids. If you have dex III don't mix it with synthetic. Do the flush. I'm not sure that dex VI is synthetic. Be sure to check compatibility.
Max

There is no logic to saying don't mix them.

It's clear a lot of people don't understand the difference between base stocks and performance design characteristics. Dex III fluids (those that were formerly licensed) and those that now meet TES-389, as well as those that pose to be (some of the newer D/M, D3/M, etc) can all be either "conventional", "Synthetic", or a blend of the two.

There is no fear whatsoever in mixing a traditional ATF with a "synthetic" ATF, as long as the design criteria and such are similar/same, including viscosities, film strength, NOACK volatility performance, etc. Specific examples include all TES-295 fluids, all TES-295 clones, and many (former) DEX III fluids like Mobil 1 ATF, just to name a few. They will all mix and perform perfectly well with "dino" ATF.

What you can't do is mix ATF that is designed with different performance criteria in mind, such as the old Ford type "F" fluid, the Chrysler ATF+4, some of the import vehicle ATF, ATF made for CVT transmissions. Those are all unique unto themselves, and they don't play well with others. But the good ol' fluids from GM and Ford (DEX III and Mercon) were so similar, and so prominant in the market, that they were interchangeable and many, many lube companies made products that met the criteria (back when they were licensed). Some companies such as Mobil, Chevron, Shell, Texaco still make these same basic fluids; they meet Allison spec TES-389.

It's not much different than mixing "synthetic" engine oil with conventional engine oil, conceptually.

Further, Allison does not recommend a "flush". Their recommended procedure is a drain/fill cycle.

Some DEX VI products are "synthetic" just as some DEX III products are synthetic. Some are not. But the design performance criteria in DEX VI is different than those of DEX III. When comparing a basic (former) DEX III or TES-389, DEX VI has much better viscosity retention, and much better oxidation resistance. In fact, it is about 2x better!

You've got to compare apples to apples to make reasonable conclusions.

Use a TES-295 rated fluid and don't worry about what Dex to use. I can get the Amsoil Torque Drive for you at wholesale.

I'm embarassed to say that my '03 Duramax/Allison w/95k miles is way over due for transmission maintenance. I'm thinking of changing the fluid/filter using the Hoot method. What Amsoil fluid should I use and where can I get it?

I'm embarassed to say that my '03 Duramax/Allison w/95k miles is way over due for transmission maintenance. I'm thinking of changing the fluid/filter using the Hoot method. What Amsoil fluid should I use and where can I get it?

I can help you get that. I will send you a PM. I recommend you use the Amsoil Torque Drive. That is the TES-295 Rated Fluid that we sell.

Dane

I have the 04.5 LLY motor and allision trans whats the correct fluid to use in this trans.

I have the 04.5 LLY motor and allision trans whats the correct fluid to use in this trans.

In the Amsoil line of synthetics you could use the Amsoil "ATF" which is rated for DEX/Merc Applications for normal changes or if you would like to extend the change intervals I would recomemnd the Amsoil Torque Drive "ATD" which is the TES-295 rated offering from Amsoil. Its the clone of Transynd.

how much does the torque drive run roughly?? i'm just about to replace my trans and t-case and was thinking about transynd for the allison but if this is pratically the same thing but cheaper i'll go with that.

how much does the torque drive run roughly?? i'm just about to replace my trans and t-case and was thinking about transynd for the allison but if this is pratically the same thing but cheaper i'll go with that.


PM coming your way.