Took some snapshots of my fuel system doing full throttle runs with a Tech 2. Note the green line is covered by text from the legend (sorry couldn't fix that). Also some measurements and shown in both PSI & MPa, and some are shown in both mph & km/h. I was running the TTS Extreme during the test. I did about a half-dozen runs. Sometimes my fuel pressure would keep up better than others.


Sounds like I need a lift pump for big HP! Has anyone run this on their truck with a big stack and got similar results?


http://www.wackywack.com/images/dmax/fuel1.jpg


http://www.wackywack.com/images/dmax/fuel2.jpg


http://www.wackywack.com/images/dmax/fuel3.jpg


http://www.wackywack.com/images/dmax/fuel4.jpg


http://www.wackywack.com/images/dmax/fuel5.jpgEdited by: Diesel Power

very interesting.........could be the difference between mac and me in ct.........mine is a stanadyne fm100 supplying up to 7psi to the stock fuel filter

Well the HP pump does control rail pressure from the supply side. It also could be possible that the RPCV is flowing all it can while the injectors are using it faster that the RPCV can supply.... Pressurized supply might help but I would be wary of the consequences to overall pressure control.

Imagine a spike well over 23000 psi due to pressurized supply and a sudden drop in demand from the injectors. The relief valve.... your saving grace.

I would be real careful pressurizing the fuel supply. Might work but it needs to be looked at real close.

Edited by: hoot

As a point of reference, any idea what the graphs might look like on a stock engine under the same test scenario? Edited by: OC_DMAX

Hoot,


Why would suplying fuel, say at 10 to 15 psi to the suck side of the pump do anything more than ensuring a steady supply of fuel and keep the pump from loosing prime? (didn't want to use the C word and start something) Surely it couldn't increase the pump output pressure by more than 10 or 15 psi could it?

From what i've been told a stock engine will resemble mine in the beginning and then fluctuate slightly above and below the desired amount. I didn't run it that way though :)


sdaver- i'm sure you're right. one of you is running out of gas and the other isn't...


not to mention 2 extra tires dragging on the bat-truckhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I believe the RPCV (railpressurecontrolvalve) acts as and amplifier of sorts. When designing the HP pump they had to come up with a way to control 23,000 psi. They came up with a valve that works on the low pressure input side. The reason they did this is it's much easier to design a durable valve controlling low pressure than one that controls incredibly high pressures.

Now I'm no absolutely sure if pressurized fuel would do as I described but I certainly would look into it.

Nick's truck is the perfect example of what I've been telling you all for months. Feeding pressurized fuel to the inlet of a high pressure pump is nothing new and it will help the pump outlet pressure. My only reservation on the Dmax is the fuel is first feed to the EDU and I donot know how much pressure that will handle without leaking. Nick's truck dropped pressure as the graphs show and it never set a check engine light, like some would like to believe. So you don't know it's happening unless your checking it!


The stock system is fine for upto +200 RwHp give or take alittle, above that the system needs help. We have also seen several bad Hp pumps. Bosch shows a lift pump in all there common rail design books so I donot see how adding what they already show is going to cause a problem. Dodge uses one in there common rail system design but it's only good for about 500 RwHp so we need something a bit larger than there's. Once I find a good one it will be on Nick's and Big Dipper's trucks.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifEdited by: Diesel Tech

Interesting, so the recommendation for 0psi at the test valve may not be valid. And the fuel system weak link is the common rail fuel pressure and not so much a fuel injector limitation.


It would be nice to hear some input from Quad.

"Once I find a good one it will be on Nick's and Big Dipper's trucks."
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/AAF_BoostGIF.gifEdited by: sdaver

I'm sure the lift pumps aren't putting out much pressure. Maybe a lift pump is all you need. Dodge uses the same HP pump with a lift pump.

Why not just install an old pressure box? How were they able to work with no lift pump?

Um trying to feed the pump with a lift style pump on the vacum side... The rail pressure PSI is on the exit side ...Someone needs to bone up and find a EDU for research ...





Mac

sounds like a good job for a diesel boy spyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Another aspect to think about,,,, I suspect the extra acceleration of the vehicle that you are creating with these fueling changes is also affecting the ability of the stock fuel system (on the vacuum side of the fuel circuit). The dynamics of the vehicle need to be considered. The harder you accelerate, the more suction is required to move the fuel from the tank to the high pressure pump. While this effect will not be noticed on a dyno (vehicle not moving), it should be taking place on the street or track. So to make more HP requires a higher vacuum level to move more fuel (from the tank to the pump) and the greater acceleration created with this additional HP requires a higher vacuum level to move all the fuel (from the tank to the pump). Just my thougts and maybe something to think about when sizing your lift pump.Edited by: OC_DMAX

Back to the ideal IMHO would be a high volume, low pressure impeller type pump. Anybody know of one?


I still think the "bursting" my TST comp box exhibits at higher setting may be fuel starvation, but of course I may be wrong.

OC Dmax your right on track. A64 call TST they will tell you about the bursting. Extra fuel supply won't cure it.

sounds like a good job for a diesel boy spyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif

A lift pump??





Never heard of the idea...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif

Interesting, so the recommendation for 0psi at the test valve may not be valid. And the fuel system weak link is the common rail fuel pressure and not so much a fuel injector limitation.


It would be nice to hear some input from Quad.





Seems the Ford guys on Dieselstop.com would like some input from quad also.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

reread and well removing post ....


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif Edited by: Mackin

http://www.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/motorage4.JPG

Hoot


Since Bosch makes the system and you seem to be able to findout alot of specs. maybe you could help everyone and find out how much pressure you can supply to the inlet of the High Pressure pump without damaging it. We've been trying with no luck todate. Also a correction to Nick's orginal post would be these tests were not on the Xtreme tune-up, as his truck would not perform properly with that tune in place. So we made something about 1/2 way between the Race and the Xtreme to do the testing.

Hoot,


If I read this correct if we stay below 20 psi there shouldn't be a problem.

Hoot,


If I read this correct if we stay below 20 psi there shouldn't be a problem.

I think that could be a safe assumption. Two 20 psi pressure sources do not sum out to 40 psi. The concern being going over the pumps pressure regulator's ability.

Again... I'm no expert on the HP pump. I'm just pulling from what I've read and seen in the articles.

Interesting, so the recommendation for 0psi at the test valve may not be valid. And the fuel system weak link is the common rail fuel pressure and not so much a fuel injector limitation.


It would be nice to hear some input from Quad.





If you could ensure that you never went into the negative, 0 psi would probably be ideal. Problem is how do you ensure it won't go negative without a real regulator. Years ago Holley used to make one and it seemed to work well, I Don't know if it still exists, if it is Diesel compatable or even if it's max flow rate is high enough.

I actually have one of the old Holly regulators that is currently doing nothing. When I get to my lift pump install, I can try it. I have an electronic fuel pressure gauge, so I can test it on the run and I can test it in different locations. Problem is weather and the holidays and maxxed out cards.


I run a Holly 140gph Marine fuel pump as a lift pump on my John-Deere 4430, but the injection pump has its own regulator and by-pass, so the pressure (8psi) isn't a problem. It is tempting to use the Holly, but would need a by-pass. Summit Racing has a bunch of different regulators, including by-pass type, but they are pretty pricy. Also, I don't know how it would do in continuous service or if fuel could be pulled through it.


Edited by: Horse Trainer

What I used when we ran the Xtreme file on the DuraMax was a Holley pump with regulator set to 4.5 psi. It worked fine for about three weeks then started leaking from the regulator and pumphttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif! So I cannot recommend that pump and regulator unless your just looking to test for a short period of time.

Thanks for the heads up. What I don't have is a bunch of time to R&R stuff - I try to plan it and put it on and use it. I have noticed that the Holly on the J-D seeps a buch. Must be something in the diesel, as I've had a time getting all the fittings in my fuel plumbing to stop.

I don't dare get into this argument, but my fuel system is stock. No lift pump needed. We have made considerably more power than what has been seen so far on the stock fuel system.


I think there are some good ideas floating around, but I am not exactly a fuel system engineer. AS soon as the new tunes are finshed and the turbo kit is complete I am done with this motor as we are starting on the LLY right now.





MIke what do the Ford guys want? I guess I need to read every post?Edited by: Quadzilla

My reason for a lift pump is that several times, while on my aux tank, I have unported the fuel pickup and taken a slug of air. One time in a parking lot - no big deal. The other was pulling out of Jackson, WY with horses. So, I am looking for a way to not have to pop the hood and prime.


Also, since I get fuel all over the West, I need to get my filters in a logical order, and want to finish with a Cat under the hood. I have two alternators, so it needs to go under the air filter. Seems like I keep making it more complicated!

Hi,


I am new to the forum. How does the TTS Extreme increase power output? Does it add pulse width, timing, or fuel pressure? How much power does it make?





Thanks,

The Xteme program reprograms the factory PCM to operate under conditions which produce greater power. There is two things needed to make power, Fuel and Air both of which are increased due to the programming changes. We donot however change fuel pressure as it's not needed. You will need to upgrade your fuel delivery system to make use of the Xtreme program as the stock system falls short. If you look at the dyno results posted by Nick (Diesel Power) where he tested TTS, Edge and Quad. All were on the same truck, same day and same dyno. The Edge and TTS products produced the power that was advertised but the Quad fell way short of advertised claims. He is retesting on a different dyno and will post the results soon (within 24 hours), but he is also testing the 1/2 Xtreme program as he still needs to upgrade his fuel system. I think the results will speak for themselves............

Quad


My comment was not to knock you but just laughing at the Ford boys with their trans problems. Seems they are up in arms cause all you tuners gave them what they wanted (horsepower) and i tried to tell them their p/s trans would not hold. Now they are blaming all you tuners for their trans problems.


mike

Update -


Now after adding the fuel pump i think things are better. while i'm only using a predator until i get a tech2, it shows my desired and actual pressue virtually the same from 0 - 100+ MPH running TTS extreme.


Nick

What is the Fuel Rail Pressure reading you are getting with your Extreme program (out of curiousity).


The stock engine program runs at 159 MPa. Conversion factor to PSI is roughly:


PSI = (14,700,000/101,325)*(MPa)





Alan

DP


where can I get the schroeder fitting with out the hose and guage, I have a snap-on press/vacum that is for fuel but not the fitting.


next-- I have been reading about all's lift pump questions and I am running a fm100 with a internal relief valve set at 10 lbs. my brochure that came with it says you can get these pumps set at what you want but they are not adjustable. They pump 10 gpm an i have mine relieved thro a needle valve an set at 3/4 lb an it drops to almost zero at 3500 R P M . This is the pump that standyne says they are using in place of the dodge when there oem goes bad. I have the standyne reps cell phone # and the model of the pump if you think it may work. it's a neet pump 2 inlets an 2 outlets with a filter water trap on it. I run it off a o/p switch an it says it has a 10,000 hr service period.


Geno

Geno


If your pump is set at 10 psi and it drops below that at any time during your engine running than the pump is not big enough for your application. If the pump was large enough the pressure should not drop below your set point. If the pressure is dropping it means the pump cannot supply enough fuel to stay up with the demand. In the testing we have been doing we have only been running the Duramax's at 5 psi but we hold that pressure til 4000 RPM + - .5 psi. The test pumps have been rated at 140 gph or 2.33 gpm. So if your pump is really puts out 10 gpm that should be more than enough, so something is not working properly in your system.

What is bursting?


Does truck configuration have anything to do with possible supply problems? I.E. Long bed,Short bed,Crew cab, 34G tank 26G tank?

Tech


I am not looking for performance, I thought that because I had the valve open so far and I have it plumbed back to suction side of lift pump could be reason for this. I will close the bypass when I find me a fitting for my guage and check it then. Do you know where I can get a schroeder fitting only, I have a good guage just need the fitting.


Geno

Geno - haven't seen the fitting. i found a used kent-moore gauge on ebay for $40..





OC - i can't remember my max pressure, other than they read the same. i know steve doesn't alter the rail pressure so it should be the same as stock. when i get my tech 2 i will see if i can make some plots to post how the pump has helped out.


Nick

A good pump before the O.E.M. filter and a high quality regulator after the filter with a return line is what you are looking for. This will give you a supply and demand type system. Just like the one that is already on there from the factory. It sounds like it is just a little to small. Wonder if extra filters and plumbing has anything to do with the factory set up not being adequate? I wonder if there is any difference between truck configuratuion including aftermarket filtering?

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<TD class=hdrblu width="77%">Stanadyne Fuel ManagerŪ
100 Series Assemblies</TD></TR>
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<TD width=240>http://reliableindustries.com/photos/stan_2.jpg </TD>
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Stanadyne Fuel Manager 100 Series:
&gt;&gt; Up to 80 GPH flow rate (approx. 350 HP)
&gt;&gt; Wide variety of elements (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/elementinfo_fm100.php)
&gt;&gt; Mix &amp; Match optional module kits (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/optionalmodule_fm100.php)


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Stanadyne's Fuel Manager filter system offers many unique features such as a choice of media efficiency and the ability to add modules including see-through water bowls, electric heaters, hand or electric priming pump, electric lift or transfer pump etc.
We offer the Fuel Manager 100 Series in all its configurations - and maintain stock all service parts for complete product support</TD></TR>
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<TD class=text13bold colSpan=2>Complete Filter Assemblies</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>Part No.</TH>
<TH>Series</TH></TR>
<TR>
<TD>33640 (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/assyinfo.php?search_for=33640)</TD>
<TD>FM100</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>33641 (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/assyinfo.php?search_for=33641)</TD>
<TD>FM100</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>33642 (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/assyinfo.php?search_for=33642)</TD>
<TD>FM100</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>34817 (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/assyinfo.php?search_for=34817)</TD>
<TD>FM100</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>34819 (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/assyinfo.php?search_for=34819)</TD>
<TD>FM100</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>33945 (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/assyinfo.php?search_for=33945)</TD>
<TD>FM100 Lift pump</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>33644 (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/assyinfo.php?search_for=33644)</TD>
<TD>FM100 Marine</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>33645 (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/assyinfo.php?search_for=33645)</TD>
<TD>FM100 Marine</TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD>
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<TD class=text13bold colSpan=2>FM100 Head Assemblies</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>Part No.</TH>
<TH>Descrip</TH></TR>
<TR>
<TD>30837 (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/partinfo.php?search_for=30837)</TD>
<TD>1/2x20 SAE Ports </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>33260 (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/partinfo.php?search_for=33260)</TD>
<TD>1/4x18 NPTF Ports </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>33648 (http://reliableindustries.com/inv/stan/partinfo.php?search_for=33648)</TD>
<TD>3/8x18 N