Has anyone bought and installed one yet? I keep holding back buying one without hearing some feedback first.

I to would like to hear some feedback on the Banks Six-Gun. Somebody pull the trigger!

Click on pic
http://www.bankspower.com/product_images/SixGun-Duramax.jpg (http://www.bankspower.com/System.cfm?appid=AC08&sysid=SC16)

For those of you who already have purchased a tuner box:

SPECIAL REBATE OFFER!
If you want the incredible Six-Gun performance, safety and advanced features in your Duramax, but you’ve already bought another diesel tuner, don’t despair. Just purchase the Six-Gun and send us your brand X diesel tuner IN USEABLE CONDITION. We’ll then send you a hefty 20% rebate off the Six-Gun price!

I would say they are pretty confident in their product!

Has it been official released ?? I think unofficial one "may" be near by ....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

http://www.bankspower.com/newproducts-12-03.cfm

Banks Six-Gun™ Diesel Tuner

"The new Banks Six-Gun diesel tuner for Duramax pickups allows truck owners to select from six levels of power up to +128 hp and +345 lb-ft while they drive. Six-Gun quickly and smoothly changes the truck’s output at the twist of a dial. Banks’ Stacked for Power™ design combines all tuning elements, pulse width, timing and fuel pressure into one tuner. Six-Gun includes mission-critical safety circuit design for added protection."

"For off-road pullin’ or draggin’, Banks offers the Speed-Loader™ upgrade. Collectively, the Six-Gun and Speed-Loader provide +155 hp and +385 lb-ft and are both easy to install. Six-Gun is introductory priced at $625, and the Speed-Loader option at $99."


I can't believe Banks is finally getting away from selling a high dollar all in one upgrade and finally giving people what they want, more hp&tq in a tuner not tied to a kit.

This is a healthy power upgrade from the conservative guys at Banks. But it falls short on power for us guys dragracing and truckpulling.

Even if they gave me 100% off I wouldn't trade in my brand X tuner that adds 215/425 to the wheels or my brand X box that that adds 145/350 to the wheels. Not forgeting when my two brand X products are stacked my truck runs 12.5@105mph on diesel only in the 1/4 mile.
Edited by: mtomac

If they had them out last summer I would have bought one, but the Banks salesman I talked to about the other 73HP system said "Nothing else is in development or planned for development for the Duramax."

Their loss

Things don't jive with their HP claims/tables already...

a review will be coming soon. i was planning on picking one up when i was in the area last week but time didn't permit.

Whats odd is their apparent change of heart regarding high hp systems that can damage the drivetrain. A year or so ago I shopped them heavy and almost bought a Stinger kit because their online literature went on and on about having a system that integrated EGT reduction with a smart controller to not beat up on your engine and drivetrain for the sake of HP gains. Engineered to be a complete answer..Now they are selling a module that seems to be what the competition has been offering all along. Their literature now says the six-gun has built in circutry to prevent tranny slippage. Yet they offer a 155 hp module. Whats the point of having 155 hp if all the tuner is going to do is defuel shifts like crazy to avoid slip? I guess if you see enough sales pass you by, anyone can have a change of mind.. Edited by: VFRRider

I have never, and probably will never buy anything from them.


When a company claims hp and torque gains from an exhaust system, I suspect all of their ad copy.


I have seen numerous posts on TDR and dieselstop.com that proves time and again, their marketing dept, engineers and salespeople are all in different depts. and not in communication with each other. Chances are, if you call and ask for more info, you'll get a kid with no experience with the product who is reading a sales pamphlet to you over the phone.


And that pamphlet was written by a "marketing type" who knows nothing other than his ad copy better move some units. There was a time when they had a coherent design philosophy. But now that they're seeing Edge, Quadzilla, Predator, TTS, Van Aaken and others with phenomenal sales and great performance, they're trying to catch up by spreading FUD about high hp tuners until *theirs* is ready, then suddenly it's no problem for your engine... rrriiiiight. OK, Gotcha....

One key difference is where the numbers are taken. Typically, Edge foe example will take the gain in PEAK numbers just like we do when we go to a dyno shootout. Others take the maximum gain at a given RPM.





An example at 2400RPM is this:


Stock 196HP 429TQ Juice 40HP 265, and 579. Not bad for a program claimed at 40 HP. 69HP and 150lb/ft rear wheel gain!





Oh yeah, at 3,000 RPM it went from 250HP to 292HP for a 42 HP gain.





Now you see why I don't get all wound up over Superchips or Hypertech's claims. All you have to do is hook a trailer on and the difference is even more apparent...

This being my first post on the Diesel Place website, I would like to take the chance to introduce myself. My name is Colin Banks and I work for Gale Banks Eng. I have visited the Diesel Place numerous times and have enjoyed the debates. Since I enjoy debate and diesel discussion I decided to join the site.


Mackin: The Six-Gun Tuners are officially released and will be available to ship at the end of the week.


Kennedy: What did you find about our hp claims/tables that didn't jive?


Socaldmax: We do gain hp and torque from our exhaust sytems. Exhaust systems might not net you a 100 hp gain, but a 15-25 hp gain is quite common. There has been instances such as the 94-97 powerstrokes, where the factory muffler was so good we didn't produce much of a gain at all out of our aftermarket muffler. Therefore we never sold a muffler for those trucks. Your right, our marketing, sales and engineering are different depts. That does not mean they are not connected through meeting, training and daily interaction. The pamphlet your referring to was written by our Director of Communications Peter Treydte. He is extremely well respected by the TDR and Diesel-Stop members. He is also one hell of an engineer. I respect the fact that you question a new product, but it's best to get the facts before you make your post.


The Six-Gun is the first of many race/off-road products we are making for the Duramax and other diesels. We recognize the diesel racers and are excited about the prospect of providing them products.

So is the 155/385 peak to peak or the best gain at any rpm?

Colin,


Welcome and thanks for joining us!


Glad to see you post like some of the other vendors, it's usually better to get it right "from the horses mouth."

If you look at Banks' dyno charts (http://www.torqueandchrome.com/sixgun120203/sixgun120203.pdf) for the Six-Gun, you'll see thier claim of 155HP and 385TQ are not peak gains vs. stock, but max gains achieved early in the powerband.
<UL>
<LI>The 155HP gain is achieved at approx. 2100rpm where Banks' dyno chart shows the stock Duramax producing about 175HP vs. 325HP with the Six-gun + Speedloader.</LI>
<LI>The 385TQ gain is achieved at approx 1900rpm where Banks' dyno chart shows the stock Duramax producing about 450 ft/lbs of torque vs. 835ft. ft/lbs with the Six-gun + Speedloader.</LI>[/list]


The Six-Gun + Speedloader's peak HP gains vs. stock is about 85HP.


What is impressive is 800+ ft/lbs of torque at around 1900rpms. By comparison the Hot OJ needs to be about 2300rpms to produce the same torque. Towing heavy with this tuner might be a real treat, but you may not win many races vs. other boxes at comparable power levels.

At least they show a dyno chart! Thats more than a lot of the after-market manufactures do.


Would be nice if they showed how the other 5 levels perform (ala Edge).


Edited by: OC_DMAX

Colin,


Welcome to the Diesel Place. Its nice to have you here!

Colin,

Welcome. I think it's terrific when a manufacturer will come to an open forum like this and hang it all out for full discussion/debate. As with all the vendors who do the same, my respect for Banks just went up another notch.

Now, my question. I notice that among the factors the Six-gun adjusts is fuel pressure. A number of us here are shy about fiddling with injection pressure due to the number of reports of failures/leaks associated with that practice. What has Banks done to ensure that we don't fall prey to the same ills?

Thanks,

TC

I have a couple of questions.
I have a new 03 d/a and am thinking of making more HP. I have been reading many posts here and want to know what is the least problematic device? Which one will allow me to plug it in and have NO problems with anything. Im not going to go out and race or tow. I just want to be able to keep those pesky rice burners from cutting me off.

It would also be fun to stomp on it once in a while for the smile factor.

Do I need to run a pyro?
Do I need 4" gas pipe?
Do I need Intake?

Can I just plug it into a stock truck without hurting it?

Problemchild


What would you do if you dont have a problem. You would need to change your name to no-problemchild.

I thought it might be good to chime in here. The best horsepower gain that we measured (+155) occurred at 2000 RPM, from 163 HP stock to 318 with Six-Gun and Speed-Loader set at level 6. The best torque gain occurred at 1800 RPM, from 458 lb-ft stock to 843 lb-ft, a gain of 385 lb-ft. Peak horsepower went from 252 @ 3000 RPM stock to 336 @ 2800 RPM with Six-Gun and Speed-Loader set at level six, a gain of 84 HP. Peak torque both before and after occurred at 1800 RPM, so the numbers are the same as the best gain. We always look at the full curve and present data that shows best gains and peak to peak gains. The curves pretty much tell the full story. You can see them here http://www.bankspower.com/test_results_AC09.cfm, and more data will be posted at a later date.

Tsckey: The fuel pressure is a definite issue of concern. In stock form the Duramax produces about 23,000 PSI of fuel pressure. Based on extensive testing, we have determined that 26,000 PSI is about the point when seals are in jeopardy. We have designed the Six-Gun so that at all levels except level 6 with the Speed-Loader, the systems does not exceed about 24,000 PSI. Level 6 with the Speed-Loader approaches but does not exceed 26,000 PSI. There are a couple of devices that we have tested that exceeded 28,000 PSI, beyond our comfort level.

Problemchild: We always recommend the use of a pyro because exhaust gas temperature is the most vital statistic that you can know regarding the function of your diesel engine. We also always recommend airflow improvements anytime that you are increasing fuel delivery. For those that like the idea of an adjustable fuel calibration like the Six-Gun, we offer Monster Exhaust, air-filters and gauges, for those that never want to be concerned about the proper matching of air and fuel, we offer our Stinger system, which include a set calibration (no adjustment), 4” exhaust, filter, Big Head wastegate actuator and gauges. The Stinger offers the peace of mind of knowing that you will never overtemp your engine. There is enough margin available in a Duramax that you can probably put a Six-Gun on and run at moderate levels without ever having an overtemp problem, but if you tow, you would need to stay around level 2 or 3 on an otherwise stock truck to stay safe. If you are going to tow, I highly recommend a pyrometer.

Socaldmax:<SPAN style="mso-

Colin or Peter,

Wow, it's great to see you guys hop on the forum and lay it all out for us.

I do have a couple questions. The dyno run in queston - was THAT truck equipped with stock intake and exhaust? What other goodies did it have? I am mainly wondering because I would be interested to know the feasability of getting the Six-Gun and Speedloader with the Stinger kit, and leave out the Ottomind. Has that combo been tested? Would it work? What sort of gains could one expect to see?

Thanks!
Marc

get one to a member with a built tranny..........let some of us abuse some tires.........and some more mustangs..........time will tell.....might have to make some room in my sig.......I wonder how it stacks.....glad to see you guys post.....Im looking forward to seeing some head to head comparisons.....

tomac wrote"Even if they gave me 100% off I wouldn't trade in my brand X tuner that adds 215/425 to the wheels or my brand X box that that adds 145/350 to the wheels. Not forgeting when my two brand X products are stacked my truck runs 12.5@105mph on diesel only in the 1/4 mile."http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif good point mike but it might add well to the mix.......

Edited by: sdaver

get one to a member with a built tranny..........let some of us abuse some tires.........and some more mustangs..........time will tell.....might have to make some room in my sig.......I wonder how it stacks.....glad to see you guys post.....Im looking forward to seeing some head to head comparisons.....

tomac wrote"Even if they gave me 100% off I wouldn't trade in my brand X tuner that adds 215/425 to the wheels or my brand X box that that adds 145/350 to the wheels. Not forgeting when my two brand X products are stacked my truck runs 12.5@105mph on diesel only in the 1/4 mile."http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif good point mike but it might add well to the mix.......



You mean some Slut !!!!!

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Edited by: Mackin

I wonder how it will stack with a Predator.

Colin and Peter,


Welcome to the place, it's nice to hear directly from a mfr rep. I'm going to answer you with why I feel the way I do.


Let me start with the exhaust dyno results. I've been in contact with a vendor who used to install your products and no longer does. He owned a dyno at one time and assured a customer that he would gain power from your exhaust system (this was not on a Duramax) and was as surprised as the customer when they saw a 1hp loss. They repeated the runs and came up with the same results - same as stock or 1 hp less. He contacted someone at Banks who told them that actually another unit needed to be purchased and installed and together, there would be "X" hp gain.


The peice was installed and the gain was less than half of "X". After calling back and much conferring, the final result was: the customer was unhappy with the meager gains realized, Banks was not going to take the exhaust or unit back because it was installed and was not deemed "defective". So the customer felt that the vendor and Banks had committed fraud, essentially, since neither part performed as advertised. I don't recall if the vendor ate it on that, but you can be sure that experience soured them both.


So now let's talk about advertising. Who exactly wrote the ad copy for the six Gun? Peter? Someone else? The following is quoted from the link provided above.


"it offers the most horsepower, torque and advanced engineering of any diesel tuner on the market today. Banks gives you the most bang for the buck, period."


"...Highest Horsepower Available.


Banks Six Gun gives up to 128 extra horsepower. With the Speed-Loader upgrade, you'll add 155hp to your Duramax."


Aside from being a pretty bold claim, it's patently false.


The Edge Juice with Attitude Comp version has been independently tested on the dyno to produce 180 or 185hp.


The Quadzilla Stealth tuner 215 version makes well over 200hp, in some cases probably 215hp. (I kinda see where the number came from...)


Van Aaken makes a 200hp? box that makes way over 155hp.


TST makes a box that makes over that as well.


TTS is making way over 155hp.


So the only competing products that makes less hp than you is the Duramaximizer with 100hp, the Predator at 120hp and the old BullyDog Max Power device, which was just a variable resistor which lowered the fuel pressure signal to the computer (thus raising fuel rail pressure) and made only 40 or 50 hp.


I don't particularly like the use of the term "up to" when used to describe hp gains. It makes me suspicious that on one run, with the planets perfectly aligned, 155hp was acheived. And if a customer gets less than that, the "up to" portion of that phrase is going to be the heavily stressed portion of the conversation.


The Edge Juice produces AT LEAST the advertised numbers in every instance I've seen posted on different forums.


Now let's talk about advanced engineering.


The Quadzilla gives increased rev limiter and speedlimiter removal, as well as speedo correction. I think it can read and clear DTCs as well.


The Predator can read almost all engine parameters in real time, clear and read DTCs, and correct speedo.


The Juice monitors tranny slip and backs down, the Attitude version also backs out fuel at a user determined EGT setpoint, can display 4 out of the following 11 parameters in real time:


Boost, EGT, RPM, % Engine load, Engine temp., Gear, Speed (corrected), Throttle position %, Torque converter clutch status, Transmission clutch slippage %, Percent back down due to high EGT.</F

Ya know, I'm halfway tempted to send in my old BullyDog Max Power box to get the 20% off, but it probably doesn't fall into their definition of a "tuner" anyways.


Looking forward to seeing independent dyno charts.

Peter,


Thank you for the reply and clarifications. Any manufacturer that will bother to come in to a forum and exchange ideas and explain their products gets knocked up a peg or two in my book. Welcome.


Mike

mackin wrote "You mean some Slut !!!!!"

too much ice on the road in ct..........dry roads and 40 degree air here.....

could this be the truckhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/266_Sdaver_resize1.jpg

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Colin and Peter, does it work on the LLY or will it be upgradeable (how much $$$) later?


I'd like to put a box on my truck and my take this 04 LB7 the dealer just got in ($4250 rebate and bonus money) and then order another 04 LLY in March, but I want to PLAY now.

Kennedy: What did you find about our hp claims/tables that didn't jive?


The Six-Gun is the first of many race/off-road products we are making for the Duramax and other diesels. We recognize the diesel racers and are excited about the prospect of providing them products.











Colin,





I cannot seem to locate the data chart that accompanied the dyno plots. I do recall seeing about 187HP as a baseline though...





I haven't read beyond your post yet, but my next question would be: Is the fuel rail psi being increased?

From PeterT post with regard to Fuel Rail Pressure:

Tsckey: The fuel pressure is a definite issue of concern. In stock form the Duramax produces about 23,000 PSI of fuel pressure. Based on extensive testing, we have determined that 26,000 PSI is about the point when seals are in jeopardy. We have designed the Six-Gun so that at all levels except level 6 with the Speed-Loader, the systems does not exceed about 24,000 PSI. Level 6 with the Speed-Loader approaches but does not exceed 26,000 PSI. There are a couple of devices that we have tested that exceeded 28,000 PSI, beyond our comfort level.

Mjollnir: Both tests, stock and Six-Gun were performed with a Monster Exhaust and an air filter installed. This was done in order to achieve maximum power without temperature being a limiting factor. You can certainly purchase the parts that way, many people are opting for that.

Socaldmax: Regarding the vendor that you mentioned, you stated that he assured a customer that he would gain power just by upgrading his exhaust (I assume on a diesel) and that his dyno results showed no gain. When dealing with exhaust upgrades on diesel trucks, Banks is not in the practice of assuring power gains. In most cases, it is necessary to enhance fuel delivery to experience a power increase. Improving exhaust flow does remove backpressure from the engine, allowing reduced pumping losses, which will definitely improve engine efficiency, but may not increase power under full load (such as a dyno test). As I mentioned before, we were pleasantly surprised to find a small power increase on some Duramax’s with a Monster Exhaust upgrade. As far as that customer’s dissatisfaction with the Banks product, I don’t know all the details, but I would be happy to get involved on his behalf and see if we can determine what is not working correctly. I can be reached via e-mail, ptreydte@bankspower.com.

Regarding advertising and horsepower and torque claims, there are a couple of things that are going on here. First of all, we base our claims on our testing. To date, we have not tested a competitor’s product that exceeded the power output of the Six-Gun, while maintaining the integrity of the drivetrain in the vehicle. In other words, as we are testing, we are watching parameters like transmission slip and fuel rail pressure. In order to maintain the integrity of our test equipment (not blow up our test trucks), we will not run under certain conditions. Now it is possible that there products out there that will exceed our power numbers by using multiple devices, or that require an additional file, or that recommend a complete new upgraded transmission beyond a certain level. Our goal is to make an apples to apples comparison. You have got me thinking, though, and I am going to review that particular statement to determine if it might be more clear with a little more explanation. I always welcome people to test our product against others. If you do so though, please look at things like EGT and trans slippage while testing for a direct comparison.

Lets talk about advanced engineering. You mentioned a few competitors that have features that we do not currently offer that have nothing to do with power output. That is well and good, the Six-Gun is a device that is designed to deliver power, not diagnose the engine. The key to the adv

Thanks for your reply. I don't have time to fully reply now, but essentially my impression is that you just sidestepped some of teh issues rahter than answering them directly.


Short version: all of your competitors advertise gains over peak hp/tq numbers, ie 250 hp stock, independently dyno'd at 340hp peak, advertised hp gain is 90hp.


based on that, your ad copy should read "85hp gain, the lowest of any tuner on the market" to be completely accurate.


Also, looking at the curve on your torque graph, it doesn't look like any torque graph I've ever seen for a Dmax. Maybe it's the scale again, I'll have to look at it closer.


Again, keep in mind, I'm not attacking you or the product you represent, merely pointing out what appear to be "discrepancies" between the ad hype and the reality of what your graphs show and your competitors offer.


If any other vendor/mfr was doing the same, I'd be equally interested in discussing it.

Pete, Colin


I don't want to sound condescending, but the reality is, if a guy goes to a dyno shootout loaded for bear with this "competition off road" program capable of 155HP, he's not going to be happy with the results based on the claims made.





As for the pressure thing, the 24,000-26,000 psi thing should be safe. IMHO, the psi thing got a bad rap when stock trucks began leaking, and when the 2001 pressure sensors became unseated and leaked. To this day, fuel in oil issues continue to occur, in non pressure enhanced vehicles.





I'd be a little leery of running around the 26,000 psi mark though. Not sure if you've found what the exact system relief pressure is, but I've been told that it is around 26,000 psi. I've observed the relief valve pistons to be blue at the seating area, and while Bosch is pretty tight lipped about any details, word is this plunger is only designed to take 2-3 hits before it degrades...

Banks guys: thanks for joining this forum, as already stated it is great to have vendors participate in discussion:


SoCalDmax: interesting discussions and summary, though really I think some of your beefs should be with the Banks marketing people, not the tech people. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


I've got the Banks Stinger kit on my truck and have these comments:


- love it, the quality of the kit, packaging, increase in power, etc.


- I do find it still too loud at times, even with the newly designed Banks muffler - I bought a quiet truck, dammit!


- on the dyno it registered more than advertised HP and advertised torque, so I'm happy. HOWEVER the guys running the truck complained they had to do it a number of times do to deal with...what they thought was transmission slippage! Or maybe it was depowering...they had other trucks they had to dyno right away.


But, as like everyone else, you get a taste of more power and you want more. And I am seriously looking at the Banks Six-Pack (but after reading posts here, don't want to rule out others).


I'm not going to dyno shows to win things, though I can't resist the odd race with a Mustang!. I went to one dyno event to find out what the truck was doing. I'm either commuting (honestly, 75% of the time) or hauling heavy loads (rest of the time). When hauling, I'm over 20klbs and up and over steep mountain grades. With the Banks kit, it felt like we could feel the truck momentarily depower - a feature that I want, so that I can save my truck (transmission) because it was purchased to work and last a long time. So I'm wanting max power without hurting the truck's longevity, even when working.


Now, questions:


1.) Is there any great summary table to compare these different boxes? I just don't have the time any more to read all the threads on all the different boxes, then ask some more questions, to maybe come to a conclusion of a box that I'd like to upgrade to. And I'm sure others feel the same way. I'd envision the table to include advertised/proven dyno results, features (like depowering on trans slippage), concerns (like fuel pressure), known incompatibilities, smoothness, throttle response, pricing, etc. I remember John Kennedy doing a summary over a year ago on different ways the boxes work (but not on power outputs, etc.), but that will be really out of date by now.


2.) Is the depowering-upon-transmission-slippage actually unique to Banks? I was led to believe that this is actually the nature of the beast (the truck electronics) itself. Or are other boxes overriding this?


3.) If other boxes don't have the depower feature, what about stacking another box (which box?) with the Banks Ottomind to keep the depower feature?


--RobEdited by: ryeguy

These guys ARE the marketing people. Read the posts.


Tech people are writing code or testing hardware, not posting on this forum. I'm not telling anyone what to buy or avoid. If any of my friends asks me about the unit, I'd describe it functionally as an 85hp version of the original Juice.

Can you do a functionality summary of these different boxes, then?


Thanks,


--Rob





These guys ARE the marketing people. Read the posts.


Tech people are writing code or testing hardware, not posting on this forum. I'm not telling anyone what to buy or avoid. If any of my friends asks me about the unit, I'd describe it functionally as an 85hp version of the original Juice.

These guys ARE the marketing people. Read the posts.


Tech people are writing code or testing hardware, not posting on this forum. I'm not telling anyone what to buy or avoid. If any of my friends asks me about the unit, I'd describe it functionally as an 85hp version of the original Juice.








The pamphlet your referring to was written by our Director of Communications Peter Treydte. He is extremely well respected by the TDR and Diesel-Stop members. He is also one hell of an engineer.

These guys ARE the marketing people. Read the posts.


Tech people are writing code or testing hardware, not posting on this forum. I'm not telling anyone what to buy or avoid. If any of my friends asks me about the unit, I'd describe it functionally as an 85hp version of the original Juice.








The pamphlet your referring to was written by our Director of Communications Peter Treydte. He is extremely well respected by the TDR and Diesel-Stop members. He is also one hell of an engineer.





If he could read he would have seen the word engineer. In his defense the word is over 3 syllables!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

great first post jeff.........so whoose camp are you in? and welcome to the diesel place.......hopefully we will have a troll section soonhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

socaldmax: Your ignorance is obvious and does not contribute anything to this post. Why are you so hostile towards anything that has to do with Banks? Are you a competitor hiding behind your handle? You have a lot of doubt about a 45 year old company that holds the worlds fastest diesel pickup in it's stable. Dyno numbers are cool for bragging rights, but do you even race?


Remember, "the bullsh*t stops when the green flag drops".

COLIN, I GUESS YOU HAVENT BEEN AROUND SOCAL MUCH. HE'S A KNOW IT ALL OF NOTHINGhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Colin/Peter,

Don't mind Socaldmax. He was abducted by aliens awhile back and hasn't been the same since. Most of us really want to hear what you have to say and will debate based upon objectively verifiable information not stories retold by someone's brother-in-law's uncle's former mechanic.

Advertising is intended to persuade. Everyone gets a little latitude on that score. I've noticed that every product advertised on these pages is the best there is. But, when I can combine solid information, such as your response to my inquiry, with my own desires/needs/observations, I can come to an informed judgement pretty easily. That's how I managed to pick out my wonderful truck in the first place.

Don't get rattled. Stay on board and keep those posts flowing.

TC

Colin,
get some units out...........let us come to our own conclusions.........don't act like you have a chip on your shoulder just because someone shows skepticism.....all of the other units have had the same questions asked ........if it performs it will be hailed if its a dog then hey try again. This is a buyer beware market and we are all aware of it. Most of the time when something seems to good to be true it usually is. Me personally, I have the banks monster exhaust and I like it......so does mackin and some others. I think it compliments my truck well and does lower egts and has a great sound.......Defend yourself with the real world proven performance of your product and your ability to correct a problem should one occur. Comments like a standing behind the shield of a 45 year old company and the worlds fastest one of a kind diesel truck don't cut a lot of mustard with me, but a great real world product with good followup service does. Im glad you guys are here, just remember we are a tough crowd but we are on the same side...the side of performance...daveEdited by: sdaver

sdaver: There is a difference between skepticism and hostile intent. We have produced industry leading products with industry leading customer care for 45 years. We are not on here to defend ourselfs, sell products or knock our competitors. Were on here to answer questions about Banks that may arise and to tell the truth about Banks when other people decide to post with no regard for the truth. All of our products are real world proven otherwise we would not sell them and we probably wouldn't have lasted this long. Our double E's are not computer hacks rather well eduacated engineers that hold engine longevity, product durablity and performance close to their vest. Competition is a great thing, knocking someone from behind a screen name is not.

Read my posts. More carefully this time.


I've already stated that I have no affiliation nor greivances with any vendors or mfrs. I cannot state it any simpler than that.


How am I posting with no regard to the truth? I'm merely asking that responsible mfrs of performance equipment advertise using the truth.


Your ad claims 155hp increase. That was measured AT ONE POINT on the dyno chart. The actual peak hp attained on your dyno chart was 335hp. FACT.


The stock motor produced 250hp. FACT.


The net gain is 85hp. That's how your competitors measure it, that is how anyone who discusses hp gains would measure it, and it also happens to be how I see it.


I have drag raced my Dmax and also ran it on a dyno. It produced 247hp (peak) stock and 332hp (peak) with an Edge Juice. that box was advertised as producing 90hp and actually produced 85hp. I was very pleased with that.


Please understand that since the ad copy states 155hp gain, I'm very sure that someone will dyno it and expect to see 405hp (250hp plus 155hp) and will probably be disappointed if he actually gets 335hp.





However, if any of you gets 335hp and is satisfied with that, I'll climb back on the alien ship and once again conclude that there is no intelligent life on this planet. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

A couple of years ago I bought my brother a Banks exhaust kit and chip for his new 2001 F**d for Xmas. He was towing his 5th wheel toy box back from a trip and pulled into the Banks complex to pick up the gift. After talking with them he decided to have them do the install. They did excellent work on the install and even installed one of their Monster 5" tips which was a prototype at the time at no extra charge. My brother hooked back up his toy box and began the rest of his trip home. He called me 15 minutes later to say that he couldn't believe the difference while towing, nor could he understand why traffic was going so slow up all the hills.


This story has nothing to do with the Six Gun, a dyno or a Dmax, and everything to with the customer service we experienced. I'm sorry Socal's friend had a bad experience but am impressed with Peter's offer to sort it out.


I'm looking forward to seeing how the Six Gun stacks up. Competition between companys is good, as they drive each other to new heights and we the consumers ultimately reap the benefits.


Guy

Our double E's are not computer hacks rather well eduacated engineers that hold engine longevity, product durablity and performance close to their vest. Competition is a great thing, knocking someone from behind a screen name is not.





Colin, my name is Steve Frakes. Not that it means anything, but I didn't want you to continue thinking that I was hiding behind a screen name. Most people here use a screen name.


That's great that your EE's are well educated. I'll take your word for it. But when you mention computer hacks in the same sentence, it sounds like you're using a tactic called FUD. Essentially inferring that other tuners are computer hacks. Not an admirable tactic.


Is there someone you have in mind?

These guys ARE the marketing people. Read the posts.


Tech people are writing code or testing hardware, not posting on this forum. I'm not telling anyone what to buy or avoid. If any of my friends asks me about the unit, I'd describe it functionally as an 85hp version of the original Juice.








The pamphlet your referring to was written by our Director of Communications Peter Treydte. He is extremely well respected by the TDR and Diesel-Stop members. He is also one hell of an engineer.





If he could read he would have seen the word engineer. In his defense the word is over 3 syllables!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





Jeff, if you could read, you would notice his job title is


Director of Communications


NOT Head Engineer. Does that help any, or is it a syllable thing?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

socaldmax: Your ignorance is obvious and does not contribute anything to this post. Why are you so hostile towards anything that has to do with Banks? Are you a competitor hiding behind your handle? You have a lot of doubt about a 45 year old company that holds the worlds fastest diesel pickup in it's stable. Dyno numbers are cool for bragging rights, but do you even race?


Remember, "the bullsh*t stops when the green flag drops".





I expected better than this from you. Calling someone ignorant is not an admirable trait in anyone, much less a direct representative of such a highly regarded performance company. I sincerely appreciate the time and thought that Peter put into his response, although I was hoping for a point by point discussion of the different issues.


When I stated that I have never purchased a Banks product, it was merely a statement of fact. When I stated that I probably never would, it was based on my opinion that your ad copy is... somewhat generous with the numbers, to be polite.


I currently own 3 different power adders (Edge Juice, Powershot 2000 propane and Edge Attitude) and any one of the 3 will produce in excess of 335hp at the rear wheels.


I don't bullsh1t. Never needed to.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

I hope someone gets one soon, I like the fact that the power is lower in the RPM range which would be good for normal driving and towing.


If I could get it upgraded to the LLY later I'd get one now.


Most of the guys limping the Alli are doing it in OD at higher RPM so I would think this box could a winner for the normal person (like me) that doesn't drag race weekly or want to go Suncoast.


The 6 pack shows more power at lower RPM's than Hot juice if u compare the website dyno sheets.

<DIV>


"I expected better than this from you. Calling someone ignorant is not an admirable trait in anyone, much less a direct representative of such a highly regarded performance company. I sincerely appreciate the time and thought that Peter put into his response, although I was hoping for a point by point discussion of the different issues.


When I stated that I have never purchased a Banks product, it was merely a statement of fact. When I stated that I probably never would, it was based on my opinion that your ad copy is... somewhat generous with the numbers, to be polite.


I currently own 3 different power adders (Edge Juice, Powershot 2000 propane and Edge Attitude) and any one of the 3 will produce in excess of 335hp at the rear wheels.


I don't bullsh1t. Never needed to.http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif"





scoal" whats up man, give him a break, you really are just a sh*t desturber, the man is selling a new product you have never run, also your signature, well thats another topic, let go aliens, let gohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif</DIV>

Colin,


Perhaps the misunderstanding is rooted in the skepticism of a claim without a solid Dyno number from a MEMBER here to prove out the HP/TQ claim of the BANKS six gun.


Get a few units out to members here that have ready access to Dyno's and we will put any questions to bed on your product.


We have had "3' CT Dyno Days and king d just hosted one in NC just last weekend, or search the Forums.


All our numbers are freely posted...........


Let one of us posts the numbers......... like MACKIN, Sdaver, king d, Diesel Power that all have modded tranny's, then it will be no BS just facts to compare.


As far as boxes and tuners we have dyno'd them all and have stacked them all as well.


We are not looking for anything other that the facts.





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifNYEdited by: GMC-2002-Dmax

For every great story about a vendor there are other stories where they just did not make the grade. I have the Banks Monster exhaust on my truck and I like it very much. It has great fit and finish and bolted on with no issues at all. I like the sound of it too.


I do remember seeing the ad copy for the exhaust where IIRC they were quoting around a 30HP gain. I was pretty skeptical of that and I really doubt that you would see that gain on most trucks. It did do a nice job of reducing EGT's and promoting air flow which is why I wanted it in the first place.


About a month ago I hear about the new muffler design and the new double wall rolled edge 5-inch tip. My existing tip from Banks discolors very easily and I thought that the new double wall would help that problem. I also heard the new muffler helped with the "drone" problem, which I don't really hear on my truck but I figured it could not hurt and it was supposed to made out of 304 stainless which would look pretty nice.


So I call up the "friendly" Banks sales line. Even though I was a prior customer and I get their mailings all the time they were barely able to pull me up in the computer. I started asking questions about the update and the sales rep was less than helpful. The quoted me I think around $350.00 for the new muffler and $80.00 for the new tip! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif I said to the rep, "that is almost the cost of an entire new system!" and he pretty much could of cared less! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


I figured that since I already had the exhaust, and was a prior customer that they would be a bit more partial to keeping a customer happy. Nope, not the case. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif Even after I told them about the tip issue they would not budge on the price or offer any help.


I really wanted to tell them where they could put that 80 dollar tip but I kept my cool and said goodbye. It's sad, I would have bought from them again but the service after the fact killed the deal. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


I am willing to bet that the Six-Gun is pretty good product but I think I will stick with my hack job tuners making 500HP. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

socaldmax: Your ignorance is obvious and does not contribute anything to this post. Why are you so hostile towards anything that has to do with Banks? Are you a competitor hiding behind your handle? You have a lot of doubt about a 45 year old company that holds the worlds fastest diesel pickup in it's stable. Dyno numbers are cool for bragging rights, but do you even race?


Remember, "the bullsh*t stops when the green flag drops".











My questions of earlier post (and private message) go unanswered, but In reference to the Duramax-6 gun, AND racing, AND dyno sheets, how much time does a Duramax/Allison spend BELOW 2500 RPM???


I'd bet Tomac could run mid to low 15's with the 6 gun alone...


BTW, What was the early claimed HP for the Banks exhaust, like 37HP and 50+ LB/FT?

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/3E6_85103254yimjvA_ph.jpg









http://d21c.com/walpurgis9/happies/faces2/102.gif

Lets roll !!!!!!!!


Mac ```````````

Colin,


Perhaps the misunderstanding is rooted in the skepticism of a claim without a solid Dyno number from a MEMBER here to prove out the HP/TQ claim of the BANKS six gun.


Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifNY








Tony,


I don't think there is any misunderstanding on my part. I'm looking at THEIR dyno chart. Assuming it is correct, they are showing 250hp peak out of a stock motor. The modified motor (which has other mods not listed on the dyno chart) makes a max of 335hp. A net gain of 85hp, measured the way we've all been discussing other products.


Their ad copy states 155hp gain. I understand that this was measured at a specific point in the rpm range, but I think it is deceptive advertising compared to how the rest of the tuner or add on boxes are measured.


Go ahead and show up at a dyno run making 335hp and try to tell everyone that it's really a 155hp increase. You might get called a lot worse than ignorant.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif You've got enough time reading dyno results posted here and on the dyno rollers yourself to know for a fact that 335 peak hp does NOT make it the "highest horsepower tuner on the market".


If that claim doesn't bother anyone here, fine. If they had said "the most hp that one can safely make without damaging the trans" then great, sounds good to me. But that's not what the ad copy says. And no, I don't think that poetic license extends to hp figures in ad copy.


Steve

[QUOTE=sdaver] get one to a member with a built tranny..........let some of us abuse some tires.........and some more mustangs..........time will tell.....might have to make some room in my sig.......I wonder how it stacks.....glad to see you guys post.....Im looking forward to seeing some head to head comparisons.....


You mean some Slut !!!!!

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

LOL http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Mac Daddy..... How comes those stripes don't hit me as being yours? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

I have to agree with SoCalDmax on this one.


Based on their own dyno charts, and all the charts I have seen from the other tuners. I would consider this an 85hp tune, with more torque in the lower RPMs than the other tunes. If the focus of this tune was to make for great towing, and keeping the Allison alive, then they may have hit the mark, but the marketing department is putting a spin on it that might backfire on them.

Uhmmm...sorry to burst your bubble here, but why are you raggin' on Banks for not producing advertised HP when your box doesn't?


I stuck my DMax on the dyno. It's only got the Stinger kit, advertised at 74hp gain. It registered 344hp, torque over 600: more gain than advertised over the stock DMax that dyno'd a few runs before me, same guy behind the wheel of both trucks.


Somehow I'd expect the Six Gun to produce more power than the OttoMind...


So...how does it feel to have a box that should produce more HP than me, and NOT get advertised gain and have LESS HP than me?


--Rob





Your ad claims 155hp increase. That was measured AT ONE POINT on the dyno chart. The actual peak hp attained on your dyno chart was 335hp. FACT.


The stock motor produced 250hp. FACT.


The net gain is 85hp. That's how your competitors measure it, that is how anyone who discusses hp gains would measure it, and it also happens to be how I see it.


I have drag raced my Dmax and also ran it on a dyno. It produced 247hp (peak) stock and 332hp (peak) with an Edge Juice. that box was advertised as producing 90hp and actually produced 85hp. I was very pleased with that.

fredw you would probably make a good spokesperson for banks you both seem to think in the same direction.........steves sig is a parody of useless claims some of which taken from you..........Until the real world test prove otherwise Im with frakes also.......Fred I hear your gtech calling you.

Colin,
Im an owner in a business that was founded in 1947......We have a good reputation but in the eyes of the public we are only as good as the worst job we ever did, so we work harder every day.

dave

Colin and Peter – Banks in general:

What seems clear to me is that Banks, as you two have inferred earlier, is moving into the “performance market” instead of what I’ve always perceived as the “RV” market. As an old fart, I can remember the huge 1990 ads in RV mags touting the horsepower/torque gains with the small print caveat “up to”. Personally, I never felt the value was there and “up to” has always raised a red flag. Too many years as a test engineer dealing with the marketeers taught me that! Though I never heard an RV’er say he or she blew $3,000 on a Banks system, my intuit said they were around but nobody likes to admit they blew that much $$. After all, there was little or no competition back then and the Banks systems did, for a fact, make noticeable improvements in performance. Especially adding a turbo to a naturally aspirated Ford 7.3, for example. Was it worth the $$$? Banks wasn’t the authority there, the market was.

Today both the market and the Internet have changed the rules completely. I would NOT want to see Banks make the same mistake as WordStar. Remember WordStar? For the fairly new computer types, WordStar was the premier word processing program for almost a decade. It rested almost solely on it’s past reputation and an upstart company called Word Perfect came in and gave the market what it wanted. WordStar tried to catch up, but it was a matter of too little, too late. Eventually Word Perfect gained the attention of “The Borg” Microsoft, and what do we have today? MS Word is the standard and WordStar has long ago died, with Corel Word Perfect still around but not really viable.

Competing on the Internet is an entirely different marketplace. Buyers (like me) are quite willing to expend a few hours searching the forums and weighing the differences, be it product, customer service, price, or a combination of all three. So far, by your posts, I can see that “forum debate” is a relatively new arena for Banks.

No longer are we (the buyers) limited to believing just one source for dyno data. Dyno data is everywhere and when it’s repeatable, it’s believed. Real World experience is available. Looking back, when I was in the market for a turbo I was only able to

Wow, what a cool thread.


I think Banks should be applauded for coming here to post. They surely don't need to.


I have never purchased a banks product but I have tested many of them on my dyno. I can tell you in most cases they do not offer the peak power of the "other" brands. I can also tell you though, that in most cases they run the cleanest, lowest in EGT etc. for a given power level. In comparison they were more expensive, but also in most cases of higher quality.


I would be willing to bet IF Banks wanted to engineer the most power, they could. My guess is, this is not their market focus, but instead to offer a solid product that will ensure safe operation of an otherwise stock truck. There is nothing wrong with that as long as the price is compatible with like devices. With their marketing and visability in this field, they will sell thousands of these units so having one show up at a dyno event will be sooner than later.

As an old fart, I can remember the huge 1990 ads in RV mags touting the horsepower/torque gains with the small print caveat “up to”. Personally, I never felt the value was there and “up to” has always raised a red flag. Too many years as a test engineer dealing with the marketeers taught me that!

Colin/Peter, that question socaldmax posed regarding the horsepower difference of only 85 hp needs to be answered. Directly and unequivocally. So far it’s been evaded. Colorfully, even skillfully, but certainly avoided.






I think the ad answers the question. "Up to" means "max of" in this arena. This is no more than than one brand of stereo amplifier touting 130 peak watts over another that is 120 RMS watts. This is not the first or last time this type of marketing will be used. The Van Aaken module for my 24v Dodge was marketed as 60hp and 160 Tq. It delivers about 25hp peak but about 62 hp at it's best margin point.Edited by: DavidTD

Kennedy: During our testing, our observation of the pressure relief situation indicated that it was designed to open slightly above 26,000 PSI. As a conservative approach, we opted to keep the pressure around the 24,000 mark for most levels, and only bump up to around 26,000 at level 6 with the use of Speed-Loader. That would be considered an off-highway competition calibration. Our opinion is that running in excess of 26,000 PSI will ultimately result in fuel system degradation.

Ryeguy: I am sure many comparison test results will become available once a few Six-Guns are out there. As you mentioned, our published results are conservative, and many times we get feedback that our products perform better than advertised. What really needs to happen is we need to get feedback from people who have had on the road experience with other products and can compare the Six-Gun. Even with all our dyno and road testing, we can’t learn all the quirks and nuances of all the products out there. Customer feedback is valuable to us, and these forums tend to be a good clearing house for that type of information.

You are correct that transmission slippage derate is a built in feature on a Duramax truck, but there are a few differences between what we do and what the factory does. When the factory electronics detect 5% slippage at any point in the transmission (torque converter clutch or internal clutch packs) the vehicle will go into a derate mode and will set a check engine light. In some cases, the derate is actually a limp home mode that hinders vehicle performance until addressed. The Six-Gun detects and begins to diminish the additional fuel delivery when 3% slippage is detected. This prevents the occurrence of factory derate and trouble codes. The concept is solid, making power does you know good if it doesn’t make it to the rear wheels.

We have not experimented much with stacking at this point, but keep this in mind; there are basically only 3 ways to electronically increase power via fuel delivery- fuel pressure, injection pulse width and injection timing. You can only optimize these features so far, and if one box does that by itself, then what benefit would another device that does the same thing offer? I can imagine two possibilities, depending on the method used by each device. It would either be benign, because the function that it offers is already being done, or it could potentially cause damage by providing too much fuel pressure, too much timing advance or extending pulse width to the

Based on some of the comments already made in this thread, it is apparent that those people who have tried Banks products on their Duramax trucks have been more than satisfied.

Product yes. Keeping an existing customer happy after the sale with as something as simple as new exhaust tip! NO. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif

I can only imagine what getting an update to a purchased six-gun tuner would be like if you gave me such poor service just on the exhaust tip. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif

Kennedy: During our testing, our observation of the pressure relief situation indicated that it was designed to open slightly above 26,000 PSI. As a conservative approach, we opted to keep the pressure around the 24,000 mark for most levels, and only bump up to around 26,000 at level 6 with the use of Speed-Loader. That would be considered an off-highway competition calibration. Our opinion is that running in excess of 26,000 PSI will ultimately result in fuel system degradation.









Definitely so if the relief is activating. Curious where the 28,000 PSI came from. I'm leery of skirting the 26,000psi area as like I stated earlier, as the word is, that valve is not suited for multiple activations. The theory is, that once degraded, it will tend to leak making increasingly difficult to maintain rail pressure, AND significantly increasing return volume...

Reputable audio mfrs have all decided to measure their equipment using RMS power levels driven into a stated impedance at a specified THD % over a set frequency range, generally 20Hz to 20KHz.


The less reputable companies use PMPO (peak music power output) or RMS power at a lower impedance or at a higher THD %. This misleads those less savvy into thinking they are getting something that they are not.


Your analogy was excellent. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

This thread has sure covered some ground.


One universal fact in the diesel tuner marketplace is that the first indicator of a tuner's performance level is peak HP &amp; peak torque. THEN talk about how it works, unique features, etc.


Banks seemed to understand this back when the Stinger was released @70 PEAK horsepower. The tuner market hasn't changed - so why did Banks?


"It offers the most horsepower, torque, and advanced engineering of any diesel tuner on the market today"


Lets see, for a compound statement to be true, each part must be true (accepted rules of boolean logic - not mine!). The Six-Gun tuner does not offer the most horsepower and does not offer the most torque. Even if you accept best-to-best measurements, the Six Guns' 155/385 numbers are less than what other commercially available diesel tuners have achieved. Without even debating the engineering claim, I think we can comfortably say this statement is not accurate.


"This is engine tuning from an engine design company, not engine tuning from a computer hacking company"


You mean Quad, Edge, TTS, Diablo, &amp; others are all hacking companies? Oh my God - does anybody know if Norton makes an antivirus program for the Duramax?

Colin,


Perhaps the misunderstanding is rooted in the skepticism of a claim without a solid Dyno number from a MEMBER here to prove out the HP/TQ claim of the BANKS six gun.


Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifNY








Tony,


I don't think there is any misunderstanding on my part. I'm looking at THEIR dyno chart. Assuming it is correct, they are showing 250hp peak out of a stock motor. The modified motor (which has other mods not listed on the dyno chart) makes a max of 335hp. A net gain of 85hp, measured the way we've all been discussing other products.


Their ad copy states 155hp gain. I understand that this was measured at a specific point in the rpm range, but I think it is deceptive advertising compared to how the rest of the tuner or add on boxes are measured.


Go ahead and show up at a dyno run making 335hp and try to tell everyone that it's really a 155hp increase. You might get called a lot worse than ignorant.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif You've got enough time reading dyno results posted here and on the dyno rollers yourself to know for a fact that 335 peak hp does NOT make it the "highest horsepower tuner on the market".


If that claim doesn't bother anyone here, fine. If they had said "the most hp that one can safely make without damaging the trans" then great, sounds good to me. But that's not what the ad copy says. And no, I don't think that poetic license extends to hp figures in ad copy.


Steve





SoCal,


Those misunderstandings were directed at Colin and the fact that the skeptisism here is just that "skeptisism" ! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif Same as James got with the Predator and Superchips has gotten.


A claim of 155 hp would rival a HOT OJ with Attitude or a Quad 135 or 165 tune. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


So Just put the six gun out for a fair DYNO run or two so we can put it to bed. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


As far as you misunderstanding, I doubt it, although you are misunderstood I am sure, your humor takes some time to figure out.


I have been around long enough to read a dyno chart, we all want to see the six gun run on a few trucks, with a baseline and compare it to what has already been run.


Now , put it out and quicker than you can say Merry Christ

Merry Christmas.

Banks Tip Update.


Looks like Santa will put one under the tree for my truck after all. Many thanks to Colin and Peter for taking care of me. Now all I have to do is prove that the shiny new tip really DOES add 100HP. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


David,


Get the dyno warmed up cause I'm feeling lucky! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif

<DIV>:"fredw you would probably make a good spokesperson for banks you both seem to think in the same direction.........steves sig is a parody of useless claims some of which taken from you..........Until the real world test prove otherwise Im with frakes also.......Fred I hear your gtech calling you"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>sdaver: just "once" think before you type, if you are refering yourself in the real world, we all have a problem with that,i have never owned a banks product, as for a gtech, i bet you have never even seen one, but you can knock its accuracy, you get mad when you are refered to as the "internet whore", but dumb ass statements as that you still make, on your next reply, please stop think and listen to what your saying, http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif</DIV>

i have never owned a banks product, as for a gtech, i bet you have never even seen one,

fredw....you poor poor man.....first of all, I never said you owned a Banks product. I said you would be a good spokesperson for them because it seems you and Banks get creative when it come to your test results......HIGHLY EXAGERATED. As for your g-tech...they are like assholes, we all have them....they are not a dyno nor a track......so your numbers in your signature are pretty well useless......funny how they re-appeared after you got your tranny done. You ran a 13.6@102mph.....but BIG DIPPER ran a 13.4@98mph....AT THE TRACK......so where do you conclude your 455 hp....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif(add enough vehicle weight to the gtech parameters and you could make a 1000 horses) As for PNUT's proclaimed title of Internet Whore....I will wear that title as an honor coming from an idiot that put stickers all over his truck in a gender sensitive outfit....just to have his picture taken...
I guess I am just jealous that we have yet the same truck, but yours is soo much heavier than mine.....faster....and to top it all off.....you get 25 mpg.......One quick question before you go.....whatever happened to the mystery transmission upgrade your local tranny shop did.....full of cow dung once again I presume...

Oh yea....the part about thinking before I post......after thinking about it....your an idiot!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif dave.......

ps see you at the next dyno event......and bring that gtech Ill have mine........and several 100 dollar bills I might need some lunch moneyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif Edited by: sdaver

Even though I just registered lately, I am a friend of Nick's and have been following the posts since he called me and told me the site was up and running...I think there were under 20 registered members the first time I logged on. This is one cool thread on this Banks SixGun....I think my sales are suffering because I am spending too much time reading all this stuff!


There are some great points that people have brought up. Let's see what happens when Nick gets his kit and gets on the dyno. I'm sure that it will make atleast the numbers posted on their website (probably not the 405rwhp like Socaldmax is looking for,but some good useable hp/torque that won't smoke and have EGT's over 1350).


Let's wait and see.


Oh yeah...I think I know why Socal has his truck weight listed at 9765lbs...I think he has that manure (read bullsh*t) trailer hooked up behind his truck when he is racing it.....only kidding Socalhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


It's good to have a sense of humor...Merry Christmas!





Jeff

Tony,


I hear ya. I wouldn't be surprised if those who dyno it get results very similar or perhaps even slightly better than what is shown on the Banks dyno chart. If someone is satisfied with 335 - 340hp for that price, great I'm happy for them. I'm not being skeptical of their dyno results, just pointing out that none of us would call that a 155hp increase.


You don't even own anything that low powered any more, do you? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

Fred,


Aside from being a very shrewd businessman, Dave is just an easy goin' good ol' boy from AL. How anybody can get him riled up is beyond me. My hat's off, idiot is the worst thing I've ever seen him post.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif





Jeff, my sig is a parody of "Got Juiced??" and "fredw" 's sigs. There was some discussion here about the veracity of their sigs and it was determined that some marketing person must have written them, thus my obviously "over the top" sig. The reality is, I've got way more engine than I have tranny.


Friend of Nick's eh? You wouldn't happen to be the owner of the "stupidasso" account that Hootie deleted, would you? I still laugh whenever I think about that one... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

I kinda figured that your sig was a parody based on some of the claims that I have read...probably the best was the mysterious increase of 120hp on back to back dyno runs and the 2000plus ft/lb torque that it made and the fact that the owner thought it was true...hmmmm...


Nope that's not me..sounded like a good thread though, but never saw it. Don't own a diesel but it is pretty amazing what you can do with them these days. Did a lot a hotrodding/racing in the past...if any of the readers want any tips on drag racing, I used to be the Operations Manager at Frank Hawleys Drag Racing School,taught the engine building and alcohol car driving courses. Used to drive myself too...best time in my sighttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


Looking forward to keep reading these great posts/threads!





Jeff

<DIV>sdaver: just keep the good work up, your statments are all corect, latter </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>

fred........im sorryhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif(absence of caffiene has made me impossible)......jeff I spent several minutes trying to make a ip or telephone number out of those numbers.........303......smokin http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif Edited by: sdaver

fred........im sorryhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif(absence of caffiene has made me impossible)......jeff I spent several minutes trying to make a ip or telephone number out of those numbers.........303......smokin http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif





Sounds like it is time for a little Red Bull and vodka!





Wish my truck was as fast and made as much HP as fredw's...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Jeff, my sig is a parody of "Got Juiced??" and "fredw" 's sigs. The reality is, I've got way more engine than I have tranny.





[/QUOTE]


more like no balls and less brains....LMAO


something like the Special Olympics California Licensing DMAX

I'm probably going to put a Banks exhaust on my truck though I'm not likely to add any power boosters. If I were, since towing, not racing, is my main interest any chip that adds 155hp at towing engine speeds would be worth a close look.

I don't find the Banks dyno chart misleading and the supporting box data clearly identifies the power increases at a given rpm. I can understand, though, why a direct comparison of peak numbers is helpful. And while I suspect that if Steve hadn't been so viciously probed aboard the alien mother ship he might have have stated his case with as much tact as force, his call for an unvarnished, direct comparison of apples to apples deserves a clear and unequivocal response ... not right now, though, I need to get some popcorn ... okay, I'm ready.

TC

i have never owned a banks product, as for a gtech, i bet you have never even seen one,

fredw....you poor poor man.....first of all, I never said you owned a Banks product. I said you would be a good spokesperson for them because it seems you and Banks get creative when it come to your test results......HIGHLY EXAGERATED. As for your g-tech...they are like assholes, we all have them....they are not a dyno nor a track......so your numbers in your signature are pretty well useless......funny how they re-appeared after you got your tranny done. You ran a 13.6@102mph.....but BIG DIPPER ran a 13.4@98mph....AT THE TRACK......so where do you conclude your 455 hp....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif(add enough vehicle weight to the gtech parameters and you could make a 1000 horses) As for PNUT's proclaimed title of Internet Whore....I will wear that title as an honor coming from an idiot that put stickers all over his truck in a gender sensitive outfit....just to have his picture taken...
I guess I am just jealous that we have yet the same truck, but yours is soo much heavier than mine.....faster....and to top it all off.....you get 25 mpg.......One quick question before you go.....whatever happened to the mystery transmission upgrade your local tranny shop did.....full of cow dung once again I presume...

Oh yea....the part about thinking before I post......after thinking about it....your an idiot!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif dave.......

ps see you at the next dyno event......and bring that gtech Ill have mine........and several 100 dollar bills I might need some lunch moneyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif





AS MUCH ASS AS YOUVE GIVEN AWAY DAVER, IF YOU HAD CHARGED FOR IT YOU MIGHT COULD HAVE THE HIGHEST HP TRUCK ON THE SITEhttp://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Socal - nope, Jeff and stupidasso are seperated by about 500 miles.. Stupidasso races a 410 sprint car and BMW/Porsche is his forte.. i also keep buggin him to extend his dyno as its about 4" short for my truck.. figures the closest mustang dyno to my office (about 200 yards) won't fit anything i own 'cept my BMW... and that's for sale!

I got a great idea when I read this post.


We are releasing a module after the first of the year. This module is designed to go head to head with the Juice and Attitude, but I think we should have a 6gun shootout!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





I will release a "production beta version" for someone to dyno test. YEs that term is an oximoron, but it is a pre-production unit, but we have no plans for change right now. I think this would be a great test to find out if I am just a lowly computer hack or if I can make something to hang with the Big Guns.


As long as it is a fair test I will donate a module to the cause...monitor and all.





Nick you game? Banks are you game?





I wasn't going to post, but for Banks to call competitors computer hacks is silly. I think they mean we can't figure out how to unlock the pcm.

Dyno is in the hole, and cover plates pre fit! Need another good day's work hand fitting the covershttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif and a bit of wiring and I am operational.





Nick,


Try to find a Superflow to run on. The overlay capabilities, and take home abilities of the WinDyn software are excellent! No belts, and no fuzzy math TQ calculations! 100# of bobweight on 5' calibration arm = 500lb/ft doesn't get any more straight forward than that! Measure the torque and calculate HP...

I got a great idea when I read this post.


We are releasing a module after the first of the year. This module is designed to go head to head with the Juice and Attitude, but I think we should have a 6gun shootout!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





I will release a "production beta version" for someone to dyno test. YEs that term is an oximoron, but it is a pre-production unit, but we have no plans for change right now. I think this would be a great test to find out if I am just a lowly computer hack or if I can make something to hang with the Big Guns.


As long as it is a fair test I will donate a module to the cause...monitor and all.





Nick you game? Banks are you game?





I wasn't going to post, but for Banks to call competitors computer hacks is silly. I think they mean we can't figure out how to unlock the pcm.

Wierd, I thought somebody would have jumped at the chance to test a new module.

I don't have a Banks Six-Gun but I will run it on the magic Georgia dyno if you like Quad!

I don't have a Banks Six-Gun but I will run it on the magic Georgia dyno if you like Quad!

I'm thinking Banks maybe interested in that proposition .... Best yet get GJ to roll ....

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

I don't have a Banks Six-Gun but I will run it on the magic Georgia dyno if you like Quad!

I'm thinking Banks maybe interested in that proposition .... Best yet get GJ to roll ....

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





Sure, pick somewhere in the middle geography wise and i'm there!


If i could pry myself away for a 10 days i'd be going back to Green Bay to visit friends

Banks is finally getting the picture. I think you'll see this is good for everyone in the end. I'd be surprised if Edge and Quad have anything to worry about for the time being. Banks has the resources, the question is, do they have the will. I Collin posting says something....

"We are releasing a module after the first of the year. This module is designed to go head to head with the Juice and Attitude, but I think we should have a 6gun shootout!"-Quadzilla


Tell me more.....I have a stock tranny...I will try it out...I will even dyno with before-after-and even compare with predator 120tune. Ltrain

Quad,


I'm always game for a fair shootout. I'm still looking for a good buy on a stock ECM so i can run the boxes un-stacked for a fair comparison. My buddy was over tonight and i may use his stock 02 for some of the testing but he's got a stock tranny so i don't want to put to much power to it so i may just test all the boxes i have on 2 trucks just to make sure i get similar results (on teh same dyno of course).

I also am interested in this "new" box of Quad's. This could be a very interesting dyno run. I was considering a Juice/Attitude combo because you can change power levels on the fly and I wouldn't have to buy gauges but I was holding off because of the tire recalibration thing. From what I have been following Quad seems to make a good product.

Quad,


I'm always game for a fair shootout. I'm still looking for a good buy on a stock ECM so i can run the boxes un-stacked for a fair comparison. My buddy was over tonight and i may use his stock 02 for some of the testing but he's got a stock tranny so i don't want to put to much power to it so i may just test all the boxes i have on 2 trucks just to make sure i get similar results (on teh same dyno of course).








Preference as to new or used ECM?





My dyno is nearly operational. A good day's work with the wiring etc and it's ready, HINT HINT.

New is always better, but WORKING is the main criteria, with price being a close second.. it will be used as a spare "just in case" ECM most of the time. i don't care whats on it as Steve has my stock programming saved and i'll be sending it to him to reload..


thanks.

I have a dyno day scheduled sometime in Feb. in LosAngeles and would love to try the Banks program.


Nick, you up to another visit?

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Cover_plates_installed.jpg

Some boys get to have all the toys!!


Nice lookin installation JK!!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_2_42.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)



I wouldn't have to hold my breath like gettin on David's portable.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


Would these little semi circle pieces (the outboard side) prevent duallies from gettin on?


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Cover_plates_installed1.jpg




http://www.smileycentral.com/sigpc=ZSzeb005 (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb005)

Looks like some JK tire stripes already on the rollershttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif by the span of the 2500 marks it looks like duallies will fit just fine!

28" between (center plate removeable, and 96" outside width makes it dually accessible and then some, so long as your rear axle weight isn't over 10k#! I may make a custom center plate for running ATV's on it. I'll also be making a custom wheel chock setup for bikes, and probably some roller cover plates. One nice thing about this setup is that it hogs up VERY little floor space...





The side bands are where the knurl stops. The tire stripes in the center are where they ran and tested it. Superflow does a LOT of testing to figure parasitics etc.





Now I just need to hook up the electrical/electronics, and finish my custom pit edge frame so I can bolt the outer edge plates on... Also going to do a custom ground strap. Not sure how necessary it will be, but I've heard tell of 75VAC measured on the chassis of a truck on rollers...

Send photos after your forklift driver tests the forklift on there next time you leave town, John. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif

Quad is the new box LLY compatable?

...


Now let's talk about your dyno chart. The first thing I notice is the scale used. The bottom of the scale starts at 150hp rather than 0. Not outright deceptive, but showing the chart from 150hp to 350hp rather than 0 to 350hp radically accentuates and exaggerates the difference.


...


Steve








Looks like it is not uncommon to me





http://www.kennedydiesel.com/images/hotjuicetorque.jpg

this was supposed to be in my last post too, but didn't show for some reason:


http://www.kennedydiesel.com/images/hotjuicehorsepow.jpg

Banks Tip Update.


Looks like Santa will put one under the tree for my truck after all. Many thanks to Colin and Peter for taking care of me. Now all I have to do is prove that the shiny new tip really DOES add 100HP. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


David,


Get the dyno warmed up cause I'm feeling lucky! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif








You and I know there is no way you will see a 100 hp gain. Geez... 65hp tops. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

no fuzzy math TQ calculations! 100# of bobweight on 5' calibration arm = 500lb/ft doesn't get any more straight forward than that!


Measure the torque and calculate HP...


TQ=HPx5252 divided by RPM


HP=TQ x RPM divided by 5252


So if you measure torque does this mean the HP is fuzzy calculated?

28" between (center plate removeable, and 96" outside width makes it dually accessible and then some, so long as your rear axle weight isn't over 10k#! I may make a custom center plate for running ATV's on it. I'll also be making a custom wheel chock setup for bikes, and probably some roller cover plates. One nice thing about this setup is that it hogs up VERY little floor space...





The side bands are where the knurl stops. The tire stripes in the center are where they ran and tested it. Superflow does a LOT of testing to figure parasitics etc.





Now I just need to hook up the electrical/electronics, and finish my custom pit edge frame so I can bolt the outer edge plates on...


Also going to do a custom ground strap. Not sure how necessary it will be, but I've heard tell of 75VAC measured on the chassis of a truck on rollers...





I would think a grounding strap would be a very good idea, ask Sdaver what happened in CT........


Welding cable and clamp would be my first choice.......





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifNY

Thanks for illustrating my point.


As the Edge dyno chart clearly shows, starting the x - axis at 0 hp and showing the full scale of the stock hp curve and the added hp curve in proper relationship to each other.


The Banks dyno chart starts at 150hp and thus shows an exaggerated scale of the difference between the stock curve and 6 gun curve.


Also note that the Edge chart shows 250hp max peak for the stock engine and 340 hp max peak for the Juice (375hp for Hot), for an advertised (and true) gain of 90hp (125hp).


Using the Banks measurement method, the hp gains could have been advertised much higher, but that just wouldn't seem right, would it?











this was supposed to be in my last post too, but didn't show for some reason:


http://www.kennedydiesel.com/images/hotjuicehorsepow.jpg

<DIV> </DIV>Edited by: fredw

Edited by: BIG DIPPER

come on guys speak your mind http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Sorry guys,


If the banks actually makes the power that they say it does at the lower RPM's then it's the unit for me. I'm looking for something that will get me up the grade and hopefully give me a little more mileage to boot. I respect those that are looking for ultimate horsepower and torque but it's not what all of us are looking at. I pull a 5th wheel that makes my CGVWR at around 25,000 (Yes, I know I'm over what GM says I should be and yes I have the weight slip to prove it). The truck does excellent in stock form considering what I'm pulling, but a little more in the RPM range that I run (1600-2200) wouldn't hurt.


Colin and Peter, If you guys are looking for a test vehicle that pulls such a load, drop me a line. No, I'm not looking for a freebie and am willing to pay (funds keep me from doing that at the moment), but I'd be more than happy to give you a 'seat of the pants' report once installed (posted on the forum also of course).