hey ya'll
Is anyone here running the van aaken tow tune module? the 50-70 hp version.
If so, are you happy with it? I am not looking for sprint race results or top end speed or power, only what is usable during towing.
also, this may be a dumb question. Has anyone with the van aaken tuner also had any injector failures or replacements? I ask that not knowing if that would be the cause or not.
thanks a lot

I'm guessing that stock or otherwise, injector failures are more of a random event, at least from the info that's been posted here. Probably more likely to occur from diry fuel/poor filtration than anything else. JMHO.

maxtotow,

We have sold a zillion of the LB7 and LLY van Aaken modules and get the same response almost each and every time if the customer has used any other HP product. Much smoother progressive power band, lower EGT's and better MPG gains. It won't effect the potential for injector failure, if you have one that is going to fail it'll fail with or withput the van Akken. It might fail a little sooner as all the modules increase pressures etc and such. If you are looking for HP to tow and to use the truck liek a truck it's great, then again we have programs that get into the 200 HP range if you want to drag race it too! Give us a call if you have any questions etc.

Mark @ DPPI

The VA is a nice box, and the tow tunes are nice and progressive if you want a very mild unit to tow with. It does lack the "shoulders" in the lower tunes that the Edge units have simply because the lower level is a cutback of the upper level and not a unique tune with it's own traits. Basically, the EGT's are lower because there's less power there. Personally, I tow with the upper levels, but that really takes a beefed up transmission.

I don't know where some get the BS about all units increasing pressure.:rolleyes:

thanks for the replies
Are there any recent link references to current dyno plots for the VA box and the Edge products? I found a jpg at vanaaken.com of the VA Smartbox-E 50-70bhp tow tune box, it is dated 12/07/03, not sure if that is still applicable to what is for sale out there now, but it is detailed and easy to read. The Edge products site has a chart for the regular Juice with the 4 levels, but it is hard to read accurately and does not show anything below 1800 rpm.
John, what did you mean exactly by "shoulders"? do you mean lack of power at the lower rpms of the weaker tunes? or did you mean less abrupt transitions of power?

When you tow, you are often at the 1700-1800 range which is where it counts. UIf the box does not respond well down there, you will lose ground on hills. This is the area I refer to as "shoulder" A strong towing box will put its shoulder into the load and you will see the boost come up strong. The shape of the TQ curve is what I am talking about here.

That's why you should always tow at 85mph, more power up there! :D

I did notice that when stacking the VA with a PCM tune, the EGT's drop 50 deg. And you can pull like a freight train! :eek:

Maxtotow, I have been wondering the same thing. The TT I will towing will be pushing 8000# +. I have been looking at the Van Aaken 70-110 tune.

John, are you saying that Van Aaken in general does not have "shoulders" down low, or just the 50-70 tune? Currently my truck is stock except for a swiss cheese air box. I like the reports of the VA being very smooth on the power. I don't want to have a "touchy" throttle.

If you are looking for a mild towing box, the VA lower tunes will suffice. The higher tunes have a very strong TQ curve. The lower tunes are a pared down version of the top tune. Unfortunately, the entire curve is pared down so the curve takes on a much less aggressive shape. VA starts with a pretty light fueling curve in the 1600-2000rpm range to begin with. Then the low tune cuts this back some more.

Again, horses for courses, a lot like a very mild tow tune. I tow with the 200+ and injectors and it works well for me, but it will smoke below 1800rpm. The low tune on the 200+ smokes less, but is not as responsive.

I do not understand the need to have power/torque at 1700-1800 rpm, at least with an Allison. Cruising at 60 down the highway I'm at 1800, but when my right foot asks for more I'll get a downshift long before I'm foot to the floor. Same thing in lower gears.

Maybe I'm missing something here. Is there a way to keep the Allison from downshifting?

More power w/less pedal = less downshifting. I like towing with the big VA and injectors, BUT I seldom step deep into it...

So is there still quite a bit of shift "business" with the 125 tune as its not necessarily considered a "big" tune??

Kennedy -- Less downshifting with when towing with a box, I see that too with my Juice (bought from you). Still, at 1800 rpm it will downshift long before I ask for full power. I still don't understand why high torque there is important.

A 125 tune is a very potent tune. With all the big numbers flying around, understand that a 125 horse tune increases the power 50%. Like if you had a 345HP SS Silverado and suddenly it makes over 500HP. A "400HP" Dmax is about 500HP at the crank.

I think your asking for trouble by towing with a 125 HP tune. You might be able to get away with this in Wisconsin (which is relatively flat), but try this out west with a load and you will have issues.

Maxtotow - I think you have the right idea, look for a relatively mild tow program (don't know about the VA stuff), but the Juice on level 1 works just fine.

i have the 0-70-125 smart e box. and it tows much better with the
70.

I guess I kinda got this one going around in circles a bit here. The VA LLY has too much power for the stock trans on the high level. That leaves 1 level.

Edge has a more responsive low RPM curve that the VA when comparing lesser HP levels, PLUS the ability to adjust things to a much greater degree. Both work well depending what you are looking for.

Motovet towed from WA to MT and back with a variety of tunes including the VA 200+ as well as 125 without issues. He also ran the DP Pull Off with the 125HP VA and respectable EGT's falt on the boards...

Now he did have a beefed transmission to harness the power.

Biggest concern I would have using a HIGH HP tune would be the 5 - 4 downshift (allison issue), especially if one were pushing the envelope and there is no defueling (as some of these bigger VA boxes have ).

The above is from towing in the real world perspective, not a drag racing or hill climbing event (those events seldom see a 5-4 downshift, usually just upshifts).

Again, thanks for all the comments and information. I would still like to see an accurate dyno of the Juice at levels 1 and 2, but I am sure it is very good for that lower level of power. And that is really all I want, just a little "edge" to make towing easier and to bring my truck up to what the current trucks are doing on power or a little better. I don't mind the truck downshifting if it really needs to get more rpm for power, but in the bigger hills I certainly don't want to have to be in 3rd to make 50mph or more. I want to get rid of the downshifts that happen when it is windy, and hot, and a little hilly and the truck wants to go to 4th to maintain 65 mph. This is not a something that i see a lot, but it happens on long trips around the country. It seems that when the fan is engaged and roaring it takes a few hp away.
so, the milder tunes are really probably all i need anyway. I think this would also stress the truck engine and drivetrain less.
As far as ease of use, the Juice and Van Aaken both appear simple and quick to install or remove. I like the switch on the VA to just turn off or switch modes without doing anything else, but that of course requires a little more install, especially if you put it in the cab. I could just put it under the hood i suppose.

Edge EZ has 3 useable power levels that tow well...

Maxtotow,

I cannot speak about the VA (no experience with it - others will have to add their opinion). The Edge Juice running level 1 will do exactly what you want it to do. Most of down shifting due to small hills and wind will disappear.


Kennedy,

You sell these devices. I think there is a large segment of users like Maxtotow out there (and I include myself among them) that want a very small upgrade in power. Posts on these forums seem to concentrate on the 5% who want to add 200HP, mod the tranny etc. A thought, how about putting together a comparative post for the 45% of the people who maybe want to boost their outputs a little bit (my assumption is the other 50% want to leave it stock). You have the dyno capability,,,, test a few of the lower end tunes and post the detailed dyno reports. It seems like a segment of the community here is being overlooked by vendors like yourself (and others). Just a thought,,,,,

OC_DMAX, I like that idea!!! I am in the same boat. Trailer in sig weighs about 8000+ when on the road and I have been looking for something to make the truck stronger. I know the edge is very populer with folks but I really don't want 5 levels of power. I would really like to get about another 80 and just leave it at that.

John, I don't imagine you are the only vendor with a dyno. Maybe some of our supporting vendors could work on something like OC suggested??

i have the 0-70-125 smart e box. and it tows much better with the
70.
Can you elaborate more on this statement. What about the 125 tune makes it less desirable?

Maxtotow, Edge does post dyno curves with lower levels. http://www.edgeproducts.com/chevy_duramax.html#


I don't see the connection between dyno shoulders and part-throttle shifting or the importance of huge torque at 1800rpm, but that's ok. It is off topic. :)

I'm with you 0C_DMAX. There isn't much out there for us 45%. But I'd like to see more than just foot to the floor dyno curves. Edge, and Banks and maybe others, do publish those.

I pull a 14k RV trailer all across the country with my 2002 D/A, and I'm very happy with my Juice/Attitude. Good controllable power, reduced downshifting, cockpit adjustable (including power levels), engine & trans protection, etc. Don't know how to compare it to other boxes or programmers.

I see the dyno charts for the EZ and the Juice. It appears they are near identical for the 3 tunes the EZ has. anyone know if that is the case? The EZ is has 3 levels 30/120, 50/150, 65,180 , but the curves look the same to me and the Juice starts at +60 to +150hp. The charts must not be accurate? however based on the description the EZ looks like the kind of low to mid power box i am looking for.
if so, how smooth and progessive are the first two levels (1 & 2) of the Juice and likewise the EZ? I do notice that the EZ must have a switch to put in the cab and the selection is 1, 2 or 3 with no apparent way to turn off, unless i just uplug the modue. I found a pdf installation manual for the EZ http://www.edgeproducts.com/pdf/instructions/EZC1000_EZ_Duramax_LB7_032105.pdf
and it says it also moniters the transmission for slipppage and will reduce power. Would you necessarily get slippage with this module at the level 3 of +65hp and +180tq? It also describes the first level as fuel economy level, any experience with that? The manual also says only use level 2 for light towing.
with the EZ though I know you wont have the Attitude to monitor EGT, i would have to rely on watching the guage for that.

I forget the exact numbers, but I seem to recall that the top tune did 85, 65 on mid, and 45 or 55 on low. Low and mid were pretty close. I'm presently not networked to the dyno computer.

Maxtotow -

Not sure on the exact pricing of these devices, but if you can afford a couple hundred extra dollars, I would recommend the Attitude monitor with the Juice. You end up with a lot more flexibility in how the Juice is set-up using the Attitude. Also, the Attitude/Juice combo has a level 0 (no fueling added - so truck runs almost stock - just injection timing added). The Edge website add is slightly misleading (or wrong), the standard Juice/Attitude has levels 0 - 5 (stock, 40, 60, 75, 90 & 125 HP or something very close). I have towed extensively with level 1 (40 HP) and it works great. You have plenty of additional torque in the 1800 rpm area to prevent the constant downshifting.

If you decide to go down the Edge path, the last question you need to ask a vendor is: How stable is the current Juice/Attitude combo (HW & SW) for the LB7. What are the outstanding issues with the device?

well, i am going to beat this to death! :blahblah:
I am leaning to the Edge EZ. It is not about the price difference either. There are other factors involved as I went on about what I need. ..and the VA box still looks good too.
I see that according to Edge the EZ for LB7 makes 30hp/120Tq and the Juice/attitude is 40hp/100Tq both at level 1. That is an interesting comparison. I wonder how the curves compare to get 20 ft.lb more Tq from the EZ box. Likewise there is a difference in level 2 also, EZ at 50/150 and Juice at 60/120.
Both come with a warning not to tow anything heavy in level 2. Interesting how conservative Edge is. Over 14,000 GVW trailers and 6% grade, it is recommended to go back to stock levels. Seems to defeat the purpose? The entire reason for me to increase power is for the grades and other things that require a little more power.
Something else that seems interesting. Is there not anyone that has the Edge EZ? I have searched forums for any reference to that and only get hits for Dodge on the EZ, everyone got the Juice! .... I know, I know, but I don't need those levels or want. And if the number mean anything it appears the EZ is actually the better choice for unmodified safe towing.
Next week, I order. the wife has given the go ahead. Know what i mean?
oh yeh, thanks for listening. and if anyone has more information on the EZ put it out there. by the way. how is the quality of the connectors and wire harness on the Edge products?

Beating it more. I don't understand that EZ is the better choice for towing. It lacks the shift defueling, EGT gauge, and EGT limiting of Juice/Attitude. All worthwhile features. Power appears the same as the first 3 levels of J/A - 640 max torque. It is easier to install (no EGT probe) and less $.

I'm very comfortable towing my heavy trailer with J/A in Level 2, shift defueling, and a 1325 degrees EGT limit. Done that for 2 years over the passes of the Sierras and Cascades without problems. Hope to go to the Rockies this year.

I don't think the shift defueling goes away with the EZ as it is default with the stock allison. The Attitude monitor lets you mess with it with the juice to turn it off as well as add low boost fueling. My understanding of the EZ and a VA box is that all of the safety features that exist in a stock truck like the defueling between shifts are still there. You can flat out overwhelm the ally with a VA box just like you can with a Juice but thats it.

What about the Predator on the 40 HP tow setting? They claim you can tow up to the Manufacturers limits on that setting.........

The following quote is from the Allison website FAQ's


<TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>Q. Increasing Engine Power - If I install a kit to increase the engine power, what effect will that have on the transmission? </TD></TR><TR><TD width="5%"></TD><TD width="95%">A. The transmission controls have been highly integrated with the LB7 and LLY Duramax diesels and L18 gas engines in GM pickups. Part of this integration is that the TCM has a 'map' of each engine's torque output throughout its operating RPM. The TCM uses 'Shift Energy Management' (SEM). During most range shifts, there is more power available than necessary to maintain acceleration. The unused engine power traditionally goes into slipping clutches, and results in additional heat without adding to vehicle performance. Through engine/transmission communication, SEM is the electronic control process that reduces torque during range upshifts to a level resulting in consistent transmission output torque before and after the shift. The net result is optimized shift quality as well as reduced clutch energy. Needless to say, when engine torque is increased significantly via various after-market methods, these features are greatly compromised. As with any mechanical system, there is a limit to the level of torque/power that the transmission can handle. Pumping excessive amounts of torque into the transmission will result in excessive heat, gear and bearing loads, and clutch energy absorption.



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I think I still want Juice's defueling

I have compared the HP,TQ of the Juice LB7 and Juice Lilly and there is a difference. Some have posted different numbers than Edge does. All I will say is go to Edge's site and compare. IMHO get the Edge Juice/Attitude.
:grd:

EMSi...

What do you mean by overwhelm? Are you talking about putting it into limp mode?

EMSi...

What do you mean by overwhelm? Are you talking about putting it into limp mode?Exactly. Depending on the box you can limp the ally with the VA. My understanding is that the 70-110 version is fine. The 125 tune is right on the line and anything over that forget about it if the tranny is stock. It may hold for a while but over time it will take its toll and you're looking for an upgraded tranny. Those with more hands on knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong.

Exactly. Depending on the box you can limp the ally with the VA. My understanding is that the 70-110 version is fine. The 125 tune is right on the line and anything over that forget about it if the tranny is stock. It may hold for a while but over time it will take its toll and you're looking for an upgraded tranny. Those with more hands on knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, depending on how you drive it. If you run it hard, the 125 is too much, BUT the light pedal response is improved as the tunes go up which is why I prefer the big tune and injectors as a daily driver...