At first glance it seems perfectly suited to our trucks. Top mount the core, similar to this one

http://www.ircfabrication.com/images/airwaterintercooler.jpg

with 2 90* elebows. (probably more in reality) The rest would be cake as far as a coolant pump an heat exchange. It just seems to be much less intrusive than having to run all the piping for a front mount. Thoughts?

WhiteK2500 I believe was working on something like this, don't know how far he's got on it though. I think it could be made to look very clean installed, that's for sure.

I thought Heath was working on one as well???

chrisk1500 Had/has a WTA IC on his truck from a ricer, it's a bit on the small side though, but it worked well.

Mine may be a bit on the overkill side. The inlet and outlet are 3" each, with -10AN water fittings. It's on my speaker beside the TV right now with a GM-8 sitting on top of it.

I've yet to do anything with it, Gotta work on gauges first, then I'll intercool and play with boost.

how do you cool the hot water?? another raidiator?

I was thinking about using a core like the one in this kit:

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=216&products_id=1034&osCsid=c9376cbef612cd2ab310b31a89b29b4a

That one looks like it's 9" wide overall. From measuring it looks like I could hack a 8" wide gap between the turbo and intake, get a couple 90* 2.5" elebows and be set.

Then getting mustang cobra coolant pump and using a honda goldwing (or most any liquid cooled motorcycle?) radiator and fan for the heat exchange. Still all in the planning stages in my head..

so how hot is the pre intake air temp??

how much will the intercooler take off of that?

the amount the intercooler will take off depends on the difference between the IAT and ICWT(intercooler water temp)

thermal transfer isn't immediate, nor is it ever easy to figure out.

if you have IAT's of say 55C. and the water in the intercooler is at say 20C, your likely to see IAT's of 35-45C....now i've discussed this with justin, and technicians who build race cars...and in my opinion the way to go for race power, is with a chill box(chills the water to around 5C using ice or in more expensive set ups an AC unit) the next best option is a second rad in FRONT of all the other rads, with a pusher fan, this will provide decent cooling. i've heard people say well i'll tap into the coolant system, it's cold right?...no, thats now a heated air intake.

ATA is quick and easy...WTA is more effective....but also more expensive and theres a bit of design and engineering involved, you'll also need a water pump for it.



that all being said, i can't wait to see justin's rig all together

FWIW, ChrisK1500 replaced his WTA setup with a hanging ATA - and says the new one works MUCH better than the WTA he had before. Quantifiable, before-and-after. Search for it.

Or change your turbo to one that doesn't require intercooling, I was ATA when I was GM-8 equipped, dropped it when I went to a more efficent turbo, though if you decide to stay with a GM turbo, less is more IMO, with WTA you have a 2nd cooling system to maintain (water/cooling medium for WTA needs a place/system to reject the heat it grabs off the turbos air charge), ATA is KISS air in thru exchanger from turbo, with lots of free available air to be the cooling medium.

What I found when I went to other turbo that my ATA sacrificed some flow performance out of my turbo, so I got rid of the ATA, if I encounter a need (haven't found it yet) to reduce IAT I will be shedding the heat with a Heath WMI rig, which in my setup is best setup. When I compare price of a IC and maintenance to what a better turbo costs, to me it made more sense to just get the better turbo and don't worry about it.

Now if you aren't towing much or spending a lot of time at high boost, then Heath WMI also better way to go than IC, Bill & I have often discussed virtues of it for all trucks, and we agree to disagree that refilling a water tank often, is superior to the KISS (IMO) of ATA in a frequent hi boost/heavy tow rig that you don't have to carry water to fill WMI spray tank.

So to me choice is WMI & better turbo all situations;

GM turbo/WMI if not going to often hi boost/tow heavy;

GM turbo/ATA if high boost often/tow often;

Lastly GM/WTA if you can find somebody to sell it to you for almost free ot gives you one.

FWIW, ChrisK1500 replaced his WTA setup with a hanging ATA - and says the new one works MUCH better than the WTA he had before. Quantifiable, before-and-after. Search for it.

FYI for those recent joiners of the site;

In addition to search as my fellow enthusiast suggests; the FAQ stickies has some discussions in it as well, lot of good stuff in FAQ mite want to spend some time there, some good folks put a lot of hard work into putting it there, and was at one time required reading assignment for all 6.5ers :D new to the forum. Another sticky is the welcome member post tells you how to get best use of the site.

FWIW, ChrisK1500 replaced his WTA setup with a hanging ATA - and says the new one works MUCH better than the WTA he had before. Quantifiable, before-and-after. Search for it.

His inlet and outlet was also 2.25" on the WTA IC IIRC, I think that would also have had an effect on his ATA being more efficent then his WTA.

Drag racers like to use WTA ICs, you can dump ice in an icebox, and get your WTA coolant as cold as possiable, and do a few runs, and it'll cool much better then an ATA, from start to finish, because an ATA needs airflow over it, and at the lights under throttle, you're only heating the ATA up as the heated intake air travels through it, where when a coolant pump is circulating cold coolant through the system, even stopped, the IC continues to cool.

Not sure how well it would work for towing though.

The ideal setup on a WTA IC if that the secondary heat exchanger (WTA radiator) can remove as much heat from the coolant as the coolant absorbs heat from the intake air.

Hi Justin
Yep, and that was the big issue he faced, iirc... the coolant warmed up, which is natural. He would have needed a much larger WTA rad and a much larger coolant volume to keep that temp from climbing. Thermodynamics 101... actually, as I recall, Engineering 417.

Very good experiment, though... and worked much better than stock, from his reported data. Chris does good work, and was very thorough and accurate in his measurements, which is why I tend to like his data more than some of the reported 'seat-of-the-pants' reports we get on the forum.

Perceptions are nice too, but data rules.

As for towing, lower speeds, continued high temp scavenging and accumulation... probably not so good. The other issue is ambients... water picks up heat better than air, but it also holds it better...

For Average Joe 6.5er who won't be carrying around a ice bucket a bit impractical, notice world's fastest 6.5 The Heath Land Racer was WMI equipped, not IC'd that is data you can take to the bank, plus as it turns out some IAT for economy is preferred about 150F or so charge air is ideal from what I've been told, the turbo I run now runs about 130F IAT, at cruising speeds, and max I've seen at "warp speed" :D running empty not towing has been 198F and no defuel.

Hi Justin
The other issue is ambients... water picks up heat better than air, but it also holds it better...

Chris' project was the drive behind wanting to do my own, plus, I just like to be different.

That is THE biggest issue with a WTA IC, not removing heat from the intake air, but getting rid of the heat from the coolant.

I'm hoping a WTA rad the same width and height (1" thick) as the stock engine rad and a Dmax fan will help keep things frosty.

If I had my time back, I'd go WMI Tim.

But the intercooler was 80$ on ebay, and I can source everything else. Plus.... I like when people look at my engine and go "What in god's name is THAT?"

look at a Derale or similar trans cooler electric fan kit, one on my trans is compact and rated for 25K heat load in trans, your WTA should not be generating a whole lot of heat in lower boost modes. I don't understand your larger rad idea, you plan to run WTA coolant through the rad ???

look at a Derale or similar trans cooler electric fan kit, one on my trans is compact and rated for 25K heat load in trans, your WTA should not be generating a whole lot of heat in lower boost modes. I don't understand your larger rad idea, you plan to run WTA coolant through the rad ???

Through a second dedicated WTA rad.
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/images/product/radiator_24x12x1_picture.jpg

Measurements are 14" high, 2' wide, and 1" thick.
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/images/product/radiator_24x12x1_specsheet.gif

That's the one I was lookin at anywho...

Okay now I get it

That's what I was thinking, a puller fan mounted behind the "heat exchanger" for the WTA inter cooler, with an adjustable thermal switch that keeps your IAT at optimum.

mounted in front of existing rad & a/c cond ??? not sure I'd do that as flow challenged as current set up is.

That's what I was thinking, a puller fan mounted behind the "heat exchanger" for the WTA inter cooler, with an adjustable thermal switch that keeps your IAT at optimum.
X2 and probably get away with smaller one than you propose in your pic K25, you have the IC, know the flow requirements to make it cool properly, you'll need to also do flow calcs for pump sizing and flow loss thru the plumbing; flow thu coolant side will be just as critical to amount of air over the rad fins for maintaining temp

Ever thought of relisting the WTA, as it seems to me mite be cheaper in long run to go WMI

That's what I was thinking, a puller fan mounted behind the "heat exchanger" for the WTA inter cooler, with an adjustable thermal switch that keeps your IAT at optimum.

Do you really think a puller/pusher fan would be needed in addition to the engine driven one if I were to switch over to a 21" Dmax fan?

I mean... Hell... The engine fan, and ram air.... And I'm not in Cali or Texas....

Here is another one, 2" thick 10" tall and 13" wide
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/images/product/radiator_30rowsilver_picture.jpg

Well I've never experienced a Duramax fan, except on a Duramax, so I don't really know how it flows. But I know that at lower RPM's, electric fans work great, as fan speed is separate from engine speed.

So I don't think you would NEED it. If I were you, I would set it up to leave room for improvement, that way if you're not satisfied with how it cools, you could add an electric fan relatively easily.

Do you really think a puller/pusher fan would be needed in addition to the engine driven one if I were to switch over to a 21" Dmax fan?

I mean... Hell... The engine fan, and ram air.... And I'm not in Cali or Texas....

Looks like you plan to stack in front of rad, not sure I'd do that as off hiway you'll have reduced flow to WTA exchanger, but worse off less flow to ac and engines rad cores, sort of like snow cover flow reduction to keep engine warm in winter, flow restriction could make engine run hotter in summer, Not nixing idea in total, just making aware of things you may have not considered.

I have Dmax fan on mine doesn't pull more air than my factory steel did, but less mass composite vs steel so slight hp/tq gain with lighter blade doing the work

OR just move all your lights to the bumper, and then you have the whole front of the truck to cool it... but that may be a lot of work.

Looks like you plan to stack in front of rad, not sure I'd do that as off hiway you'll have reduced flow to WTA exchanger, but worse off less flow to ac and engines rad cores, sort of like snow cover flow reduction to keep engien warm in wineter, flow restriction could make engine run hotter in summer, Not nixing idea in total, just making aware of things you may have not considered

Even in the summer my truck is lucky to have the temp needle anywhere near the 1/4 mark when tooling around, and even at WOT in 1st playin in the mud for hours, I can't get the needle past halfway, and it's not a tow mule.

Although, I have thought about this, and that's why I was thinking about adding the Dmax fan.

My thinking is, the dmax fan would cool things even further, then you "block" or restrict the front end flow, and one SHOULD offset the other depending on how much heat comes off the Rad and how much airflow it restricts.

Guys use ATA IC's front mounted with no issue :confuzeld

Besides, if I'm lowering IAT's wouldn't that also help reduce engine coolant temps?

OR just move all your lights to the bumper, and then you have the whole front of the truck to cool it... but that may be a lot of work.

Or just move the WTA rad into the bumper itself, they have one that looks like it would fit... Only issue is taking a front end hit to the bumper.

Even in the summer my truck is lucky to have the temp needle anywhere near the 1/4 mark when tooling around, and even at WOT in 1st playin in the mud for hours, I can't get the needle past halfway, and it's not a tow mule.

Although, I have thought about this, and that's why I was thinking about adding the Dmax fan.

My thinking is, the dmax fan would cool things even further, then you "block" or restrict the front end flow, and one SHOULD offset the other depending on how much heat comes off the Rad and how much airflow it restricts.

Guys use ATA IC's front mounted with no issue :confuzeld

Besides, if I'm lowering IAT's wouldn't that also help reduce engine coolant temps?

A designed ATA core set up for being in front of other cores, designed to flow with less restriction, not same as small fin spacing you see in those cores, you've shown, unless you are running high boost 12+ IAT won't be much anyway; not trying to convince you out of it; looks like you have your mind made, good luck with the project, multiple ways to skin the power cat.

Back to the original queston posted, has anybody tried WTA, yes, have the attempts thus far been worthwhile over the current other options, IMO no, but maybe Justin will figure it out, *** wasn't supposed to work either, yet it does, necessity mother of invention and all that jazz.

Or just move the WTA rad into the bumper itself, they have one that looks like it would fit... Only issue is taking a front end hit to the bumper.

I'm also considering adding WTA charge cooler this summer; adding the minimum of intake tract volume, high efficiency, & very low pressure drop appeals to me.

What about locating the larger 24" x 14" heat exchanger in the same location as the hanging ATA's?

Seems like the bulk of experience w/ WTA's is in performance car apps where high boost & charge air temps typically don't last much longer than a run up thru the gears.

So some successful IC's in drag racing show charge air cooling benefits that are partially from the IC acting like a short-term heat sink. The setup may not be able to exchange heat out of the IC system at a rate close to the rate the high boost/hot charge air is adding heat. Such a system would "heat-soak" and loose efficiency the longer high boost conditions last.

My guess is WTA IC that performs as good or better than the hanging ATA's is gonna need plenty of heat exchanger capacity.

In searching, I haven't been able to find enough about ChrisK1500's setup to get a sense of how much water mass it held?

I would guess a number of folks on the forum have read Corky Bell's book - Maximum Boost. It's a solid source of information without a lot of product marketing driven bias.

Corky Bell is associated with Bell Intercoolers. Their website has good FAQ's regarding IC's regardless of type. Granted the site is intended to promote IC's - multiple types. The FAQ's cover the relative merits of ATA's, WTA's, etc., and which type fits which applications best.

The info appears to be solid scientifically as well as reflects knowledge from a good deal of practical experience. If you're interested in this subject - search Bell Intercoolers & check out the info.