i read through the entire http://www.offroad-tech.com/tech/tb401/ article, and still have not found the answer. i'm certain the answer *is* buried in this forum, but the search engine chokes on commonly used terms, and believe it or not... t-bars and green keys are a couple of them.

it seems that either green keys, or turning the adjusting bolts simply rotates the ass end of of the bar... yes? so are the green keys for when the bolt adjustment just is not far enough? and, i have read that a full bolt adjustment gets risky to the cv joints and ride quality, so why get green keys?

thanks.

oh.... if you answer just *one* question.... is there a technical difference?

theyre the same thing, green keys are just a replacement torsion key that is more offset than stock. youll still be twisting the torsion bar with green keys, with the offset u can crank even more than stock. i did it & wish i didnt, the new shocks dont feel that great with t-bars cranked. going to go with cognito a-frame leveling kit in a couple of weeks, more money, but better ride or so ive heard

Don't you have to run the green keys if you run the cognito leveling kit? That is the way I understood it. How much more crank do you get from the green keys over the purple keys?

Time to call Cognitto and get the facts...

BB

Purple to green is a difference of 10 degrees, that's alot. I went up 4 degrees on a 94 2500 and got 2.5" with half the bolt still showing thread. There is a good chart here:

http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20888

There is no difference between cranking the bolt and changing the keys except that you can get more lift from the keys, but anything over simply leveling the truck (about .5-1 inch) you are stressing front end components a little more and the ride will be pretty stiff, although it isn't as bad if you get over sized shocks as you will be limiting your down travel. The stockers will rattle you to death if you crank very much. Also make sure to get it aligned after you adjust it.

The stockers will rattle you to death if you crank very much.
this is the part i don't understand... why do you say cranking the stockers will rattle, when green keys is essentially turning the bolt super far?

Sorry, I wasn't clear, either way (cranking or more indexed keys) will stiffen the front end. Both methods simply load the torsion bars more thus stiffening the front end, therefore making it ride higher. If you tighten the bolts with the stock keys and still are not level or as high as you want, keys with more index can be used to achieve more lift.

The stock shocks (once the front is lifted in this way) are not riding in the center of their travel, they are close to fully extended (if you have lifted the truck more than an inch or so) and limit down travel therefore making the front end a little bouncy during down travel. There are some shock companies that make Shocks designed for this that are a little longer, and therefore ride more in the middle of their stroke like they should.

So if I got a congnito leveling kit, Cranking the purple keys all the way, compared to cranking the green keys just a little would be about a difference of .5 to 1" right. If there is little or no difference between cranked purples or barely cranked greens, there really no need to change, right? Either way you are putting more stress on the LCA's and the shocks. Or is there quite abit of difference between cranked purple and hardley cranked greens. I understand the indexing thing just curious of how much difference there would be, and if it was worth buying the greens and putting less crank on them. The stress will still be there whether they are purples cranked and greens barely cranked, so then you need the leveling kit to relieve the stress. YES???

upon further reading, the torsion keys are one part of 3 things that have to be done to do it right. you also need longer shocks or longer lower shock mounts to use factory length shocks. the a-frames fix the bad angle that is given when cranking up t-bars & moves the bump stop to a better place.

heres a comparison on things

leveling kit- a-frames $475 includes longer lower shock mount
torsion keys- $60-90
longer shocks- $60-80
pitman & idler supports-$200 or $250 for beefy arms

total-$735- leveling kit,keys,supports---the cheapest route
these are rough prices, look up parts to see whats your fancy

is it worth it, up to you.

in my opinion, for what we paid for these trucks, the factory should have dealt with these problems in design. maybe with an offroad package. i think gm is the only manufacturer that doesnt have an offroad package on theyre 2500 or bigger trucks.

why not?????

Well I put down the green on the leveling kit and all the goodies and some blocks for the rear and some greeen keys so once I get the kit and install it I will have some good info over just cranking the torsion bars. Some might say it is a poor mans lift kit but once I tallied it all up it might have been cheaper for a lift kit. But I didn't want 4 inches of lift so we will see. :p:

Cranking the purple keys all the way, compared to cranking the green keys just a little would be about a difference of .5 to 1" right.
I can't pin down the exact number but that sounds close the difference between prurple and green is 10 degrees. My guess is that even without cranking the greens they will still raise you over the purples slightly. I went from green to white keys on mine (4 degrees difference) and with the bolts cranked about halfway in I gained almost 2.5 inches.

I do know that a lot of guys use the green keys on new body style 2500 trucks to gain some lift. If all you want to do is level out just crank the bolts on the purples and you should be able to get close at least .5 - 1 inch or so of lift I would guess. I personally added a 2" lift in the back and went up to white keys, mine had green from the factory, and that gave me a nice overall 2 inch lift and level. Rides stiff though I have not changed my shocks yet.

What if you have a 12" Cognito lift kit and are using the factory torsion keys and want to replace the torsion keys...what is recommended to use for an aftermarket torsion key? Purple? Green? I want to get about another inch or two so when I get my bigger tires i'll have no problems....

With a 2005 2500? Probably green keys. A good way to decide is simply call the dealer with your VIN and ask what came factory, then go up from there. Purple is the lowest degree indexing, white is the highest. Earlier in this thread I posted a link to a chart of key indexes to reference.

Now here we go!!!

Adding white to the mix is really going to cumfuse alot of people!!!!!:rolleyes:

Is there a way to identify which keys are in the truck by simply sliding under there for a look???

They're named by color, but I doubt it if I'll see a green metal part under the Chevy...
All I want is 2", but $700+ for parts alone is pretty heavy $. You're talking over $1000 if you have a shop install and allign it..
Then an add a leaf for another inch out back..another $75.00.

Now here we go!!!

Adding white to the mix is really going to cumfuse alot of people!!!!!:rolleyes:Hey rolloffhill,
I wondered what would take the place of the additional fuel filter posts!

Maybe keys/filters can be color coordinated :HiHi:

$700 bucks worth of parts for doing it right. how much are new front axles, ball joints, pitman & idler arms. bet those are over $700 for parts, nevermind the labor. should have put on original list- tie rod sleeves.

Can you put the dual shock kit from Cognito on one of our trucks if you get the 2" leveling kit, or is that not a high enough lift?

Are the Bilstein's worth the extra upgrade $$$?

Upgrade, Pitman/Idler arm support kit--Is this worth purchasing?

What is the "proper" way to level our trucks? the Cognito Kit or the OffRoad Unlimited Kit in your opinion?

i think the shock hoop fits on the leveling kit, meant more for offroading than street driving. i say the cognito, have the offroad kit & just feels incomplete. im going to do do the cognito within the next month. if u can wait ill fill in on the details & ease of installing. you might consider my opinion bias, just had bad experience with the offroad kit.

if i had to do it again i would have gone with the green keys, regular length bilsteins, cognito kit with longer shick mounts. my pitman & idler were to far gone to add support brackets.

[QUOTE=Tim G.]Is there a way to identify which keys are in the truck by simply sliding under there for a look???

They're named by color, but I doubt it if I'll see a green metal part under the Chevy...
[QUOTE]

The best way to ID the keys (and possibly the only way, is to call the Dealer with the VIN (provided no one changed them before you) The Whites and greens I have have the same part number stamped in them, and it is on the top side of the keys anyway (can't see them while installed). The color is indicated on the keys by a stripe of paint, green, white, purple or whatever. As you can imagine that paint is gone within the first few miles and the key takes on a lovely rust color.

i think the shock hoop fits on the leveling kit, meant more for offroading than street driving. i say the cognito, have the offroad kit & just feels incomplete. im going to do do the cognito within the next month. if u can wait ill fill in on the details & ease of installing. you might consider my opinion bias, just had bad experience with the offroad kit.

if i had to do it again i would have gone with the green keys, regular length bilsteins, cognito kit with longer shick mounts. my pitman & idler were to far gone to add support brackets.
sounds good, im showing a total of $835 for everything,
leveling kit
2 Bilsteins
Upgrade, Pitman/Idler arm support kit


and then my local 4x4 shop wants $500 to install it, hopefully ill notice somewhat of a difference for dropping $1400 on this........

do u have any mechaincal skills? its not a major job doing this stuff. did u include torsion keys in that?

Here is a curve ball for you, I stoped at a 4x4 shop to see what they were up to. I asked about the keys and they said the ford f150 ones are indexed just right to crank the bars. He said they use them all the time.
I will install a cognito kit and try the stock keys first. I may check the price of the bars that come with the snow plow option. Den.

i think the ford keys are used in the 1500 trucks, i would imagine that they might not be heavy enough for a 2500hd.

The guy said 98 and up F150
Den

Ford keys are usually used to replace purple keys on 1500s

If you get 2.5" of lift from cranking or from replacement keys, the ride will be identical. There is NO difference in what either will do.

This will NOT make the ride stiffer, as long as the shocks are replaced with slightly longer shocks, and something is done to fix the limited up travel caused by raising the front end. You are not making the springs stiffer, you are just changing the postion of the end of the torsion bars.

If you get 2.5" of lift from cranking or from replacement keys, the ride will be identical. There is NO difference in what either will do.

This will NOT make the ride stiffer, as long as the shocks are replaced with slightly longer shocks, and something is done to fix the limited up travel caused by raising the front end. You are not making the springs stiffer, you are just changing the postion of the end of the torsion bars.
if i have my stock keys cranked all the way, should i shim the bilstein shocks? top and bottom?

what do you mean fix the limited uptravel?

ford keys are used to lift trucks with stock green keys....

green keys are used to lift trucks with stock purple keys

I'm almost certain that Green keys are the stock keys on the 1500's

This will NOT make the ride stiffer, as long as the shocks are replaced with slightly longer shocks, and something is done to fix the limited up travel caused by raising the front end. You are not making the springs stiffer, you are just changing the postion of the end of the torsion bars.
I have to beg to differ, how can you pre-load more tension on the torsion bar and not make a stiffer ride? Either way, cranking or using more indexed keys will stiffen the ride if you are putting more torsional tension on the bar (which is basically a spring) Basically what we are doing is putting more twist into the bar, which makes it want to twist back even harder, that is what supplies the lift. I do agree however that a good set of slighlty over sized shocks does help to dampen the effect, however it doesn't remove any of tension that is added to make the lift.

There's a few things that could cause a stiffer ride or no change when cranking the T-bars.

You do preload the springs more when you crank them which should induce a stiffer ride. On the otherhand the lower A arm comes off of the jounce bumper, which seems to me to be an important part of the front suspension. When the truck isn't resting on the yellow bumpers it should have a less stiff ride. Now combine these two and i suppose maybe you don't get a change in the ride until the A-arm hits the bumper?

There's a few things that could cause a stiffer ride or no change when cranking the T-bars.

You do preload the springs more when you crank them which should induce a stiffer ride. On the otherhand the lower A arm comes off of the jounce bumper, which seems to me to be an important part of the front suspension. When the truck isn't resting on the yellow bumpers it should have a less stiff ride. Now combine these two and i suppose maybe you don't get a change in the ride until the A-arm hits the bumper?
I agree that the yellow bumpers have a stiffening effect. I had a 2002 gasser with the snow plow package that was stiffer and
stood higher than my 2004.5 Dmax. It was so stiff that I removed the yellow jounce jumpers, since I don't plow snow ifigured I would have to drive off a cliff to bottom the suspension out. It worked somewhat, the ride improved. I don't know if I agree that the suspension will be that much stiffer with cranked torsion bars. The snow plow bars are stiffer and lowering them won't ,make them less stiff. It will only make the ground closer. Once the torsion bars are supporting the weight of the vehicle, what difference will it make how high they support it?
Just my opinion.

jeez i never thought about the snow plow prep package effecting the ride, installed bilsteins & didnt do much of a change. with all these dam potholes around here, i'd have to have a pretty soft suspension not to feel them.

My 01 is sitting on the bumpers at all times.It's terribly low.I would like it leveled,but the way you all make it sound a leveling kit is almost as high priced as a 4" lift.Why would you by a leveling kit then?

Get some timbrens for you front smooths out the ride..

OK. I just finished cranking my torsion bars. My goal was to level and provide clearance for bigger tires. Measuring from the side trim just behind the front wheel well, to the side trim just in front of the rear wheel well, the nose of my truck was 2.5" low. It was very obviously low. I turned the bolts 7 turns and it raised the front about 1.5". Now the nose is about 1" low and it looks about right. The ride was stiffer until I went to larger tires (which absorb some of the stiffness).

Is the 7 turns too much or does it sound OK? 7 turns sounded like a lot, but the nose is still lower, so I'm hoping I'm still good.

I just got a set of hand-me-down BFG All Terrain T/A's in 295/75/16 and they do not rub while on factory steel wheels. LOOKS FRIGGIN' SHARP!!

Thanks guys!

Where do you get the green keys?At the dealer or are they aftermarket?I see some on Ebay all the time that claim 2"-2 1/2". How hard are they to install? Thanks

green keys can be had for about $40, from gmpartsdirect.com or check Eric (dmaxallitech) first. i dont have the part numbers but a search would yield them. changing them out is not hard, but IMO you need to have the right parts available. i had only planned on a 7 ton gear puller, but ordered the torsion bar removal tool anyway for $80. glad I did as my driver side was a bear.

Measure (on a flat surface) the fender opening height relative to the floor, so you know how much you adjusted.

jack the front of the truck off the ground, apply t-bar tool to unload the weight and remove the bolt, slide tbar forward and finally the key. perform this on both sides, reverse the process with the new keys and crank no more than 2" for a decent ride. finish by tying back the e-brake cable and trimming the fender well liners. ensure both sides are level and get your alignement checked. just a note, if you over do it the ride will be very bouncy. also, replace the shocks at the same time as the stock ones are junk.

I bought some green keys, but ended up not needing them. If you want mine, you can have them for $50.00 shipped (as long as it's in the Continental US). That's what I have in them. I'll eat the shipping cost. If you're interested, send me a PM.

Thanks for the info ski1.I'm going to have to get a set very soon. I want to run some 255/85/16 BFG M/Ts I have that my trail truck has outgrown.

You got a P/N for those keys on gmparts? Thanks

Green key part # 15592573.