Need to change the fluid in the tranny of my '03 2500HD, and figured I'd do it myself this time, along with switching to synthetic ATF. Talked with a mechanic, and he told me that I might have a spin on external filter, or an interior filter, or both, which could be determined by the manufacturing date of the truck. I checked the door sticker and it says my manufacture date is January '03 (get any earlier than that?), so can someone tell me for certain what type and combinations of filters I might have?

And am I also correct to assume, given the manufacturing date, that I'll need to get the white vent cap, or should I physically check that first?

the allison does have both. when i went to get filters at an allison dealer they recommended only changing the external filter. and doing the internal pan filter with a major overhaul to the tranny. but if your going to drop the pan and switch to synthetics might as well do both while your in there IMO.

x2

x3

Do you change the oil filter when you change oil?? This is no different.. Why they dont recommend it is beyond me.. There is no bypass for the transmission, if the filter gets plugged some part is not going to get what it needs as far as oil. I replace mine every time i do a flush, both of them.

Why not crawl under there and see?

Do you change the oil filter when you change oil?? This is no different.. Why they dont recommend it is beyond me.. There is no bypass for the transmission, if the filter gets plugged some part is not going to get what it needs as far as oil. I replace mine every time i do a flush, both of them.

i was told the pan filter does not have as fine of a micron rating as the spin on and thats why they let it go i geuss? its just suppose to catch the big stuff

Yeah the internal filter is more of a screen than a filter.

The internal filter looks like every other filter i've replaced on other transmissions, the felt/paper looking material.. I dunno, i wouldnt hesitate to replace it.. Its not hard, with the reuseable gasket its down right too easy..

Why not crawl under there and see?

'Cause I can't see without dropping the pan, and that's what I wasn't sure I needed to do.

Thanks for all the responses guys. I'll go ahead and replace both.

Lots of people do the spin-on with every other engine oil change. Definitely do the internal every time you change fluid - if that thing plugs you'd kick yourself pretty hard for having to buy a tranny because you skimped on a filter

Lots of people do the spin-on with every other engine oil change. Definitely do the internal every time you change fluid - if that thing plugs you'd kick yourself pretty hard for having to buy a tranny because you skimped on a filter

Dam good point.

Allison specifically says that the internal filter is changed only if the transmission is rebuilt. If you change from the shallow to deep pan, then the deep pan internal filter would have to be used. Otherwise, it is a waste of time and money to change the internal filter. Take the advice of those who built it or anyone you prefer. Here's the Allison service manual (by Allison) — check it yourself; there's no conflict about it. Of course, you can spend your money and help the economy (or save it and help yourself). http://www.allisontransmission.com/servlet/DownloadFile?Dir=publications/pubs&FileToGet=OM3757EN.pdf As for Mobil Delvac, it's a superb TES 295 fluid (Allison approved like Transynd, only more recent). You can't do any better, though you may not need it. I use it because of heavy towing in hot weather. Those in very cold weather must use it. Note, the larger vehicles by GM using Allison 1000 transmissions, just like the pickups, come with Transynd (now, perhaps Mobil Delvac). The TES 295 fluids were recommended to me by Chevy and Allison. There are fluids that claim to be just as good as a TES 295 fluid. But they cost no less and they are NOT Allison approved. BTW, if the internal filter ever plugs, it will be because you have big transmisson problems that had absolutely nothing to do with the internal filter! The link should now work.

Seems like there is too much conflict over when and why to change the internal filter. I asked a question about changing to mobil delvac synthetic atf and got one response that was as smart a** as most of these responses. I though we were supposed to help one another here. Not make them feel stupid for asking questions.

i would not change the internal filter unless you are putting on a deep pan. The whole reason for allison putting on an external filter is so its quick and easy to change and you do not have to drop the pan. Just unscrew old filter, take off magnet, install on new filter, screw new filter on and you are good to go. If everybody's going to change the internal filter all the time, why have an external one?

The internal filter has a much larger micron rating, meaning it lets bigger size particles through than the spin-on. You're looking at 80-100 micron in the sump compared to 20-25 micron in the spin-on. The sump filter keeps the really big particles from getting recirculated while the spin-on is really doing the finer cleaning on the side. That's why the sump filter only gets changed at overhaul, but the spin-on has a regular service interval.

i would not change the internal filter unless you are putting on a deep pan. The whole reason for allison putting on an external filter is so its quick and easy to change and you do not have to drop the pan. Just unscrew old filter, take off magnet, install on new filter, screw new filter on and you are good to go. If everybody's going to change the internal filter all the time, why have an external one?

You need to read more and post less about transmissions.:rolleyes:
The spin on filter filters fluid going to the solenoids and valve body. It is critical to have this filter working especialy with what we do with our trucks. We shed a lot more friction material than what Allison designed this filter to absorb.
The sump filter is much less restrictive because it feeds the pump directly and does not restrict suction but it still can get restricted ocassionaly. The only way to find out what the paper element looks like is to cut it open, which I do on a regular basis.
Observing trans filters for over 40 years I see that there is a flow pattern. When the pump sucks, the fluid wants to follow a certain path through the filter and that path is small. When that path gets slightly restricted, the fluid slows down through the new path. It doesn't seem to matter to the fluid that there is 80% free flow through the rest of the filter. It sometimes does not like it.
Sump filters for the Alli cost about 2 beers in a bar. That doesn't seem to bother anyone and the result is;pissed away. How about buying your Alli a couple of beers? It won't be pissed away.:cool::D

You need to read more and post less about transmissions.:rolleyes:
The spin on filter filters fluid going to the solenoids and valve body. It is critical to have this filter working especialy with what we do with our trucks. We shed a lot more friction material than what Allison designed this filter to absorb.
The sump filter is much less restrictive because it feeds the pump directly and does not restrict suction but it still can get restricted ocassionaly. The only way to find out what the paper element looks like is to cut it open, which I do on a regular basis.
Observing trans filters for over 40 years I see that there is a flow pattern. When the pump sucks, the fluid wants to follow a certain path through the filter and that path is small. When that path gets slightly restricted, the fluid slows down through the new path. It doesn't seem to matter to the fluid that there is 80% free flow through the rest of the filter. It sometimes does not like it.
Sump filters for the Alli cost about 2 beers in a bar. That doesn't seem to bother anyone and the result is;pissed away. How about buying your Alli a couple of beers? It won't be pissed away.:cool::D

what about a new pressure switch manifold assy? How many beers is that gonna cost me? :D

You need to read more and post less about transmissions.:rolleyes:
The spin on filter filters fluid going to the solenoids and valve body. It is critical to have this filter working especialy with what we do with our trucks. We shed a lot more friction material than what Allison designed this filter to absorb.
The sump filter is much less restrictive because it feeds the pump directly and does not restrict suction but it still can get restricted ocassionaly. The only way to find out what the paper element looks like is to cut it open, which I do on a regular basis.
Observing trans filters for over 40 years I see that there is a flow pattern. When the pump sucks, the fluid wants to follow a certain path through the filter and that path is small. When that path gets slightly restricted, the fluid slows down through the new path. It doesn't seem to matter to the fluid that there is 80% free flow through the rest of the filter. It sometimes does not like it.
Sump filters for the Alli cost about 2 beers in a bar. That doesn't seem to bother anyone and the result is;pissed away. How about buying your Alli a couple of beers? It won't be pissed away.:cool::D


okay, i kinda understand that. But why doesn't allison know this? They also have many years experience with auto transmissions.

I've been reading. The Allison service manual, p.57, (not the manual that comes with the Duramax) says that, "The transmission sump filter is permanent and does not require replacement except at overhaul." Allison builds and warranties thousands of these things for all sorts of vehicles and service situations. They also sell filters and service. Why would they say that the sump filter is permanent if it should really be replaced as a part of normal servicing — beer or no beer? Why not sell more filters and service, while better protecting the item that they warranty (in non-GM pickup vehicles) by calling for a sump filter replacement? Of course, GM's current warranty is 100k or 5 years — and even they don't call for the sump filter to be replaced. Why not change the air in the tires and routinely dump the window washer fluid. Only a guess, but perhaps Allison knows how important a couple of beers can be — and the satisfaction of a good piss.

At 42,000 I had an Alli dealer change mine over to a deep pan and Transyend. The tech was from my hometown in NY and we had mutal friends, He has been an Alli tech for 35 yrs. When I picked up truck he gave me 5 spin on filters and 1 gal of Transend. plus the 1/2 gal left over from change over. . His words of advice: "Change spin on every 10,000,. Come back when truck has 1000,000 mi on it , I'll do pan filter and check every thing. Then your trany will OUTLAST your truck. If you don't mod it heavily". Advice I intend to take

BTW , The cost was $350 for every thing

that was my next question. I plan on changing the external every 10,000. How often should the internal filter be changed for those that think it should be? Every 50,000? every 100,000?

I've seen service manuals for cars with oil changes exceeding 7500 miles.. NO way in hell if that were my car it would be going 7500 mi, especially with some of the engines around i see tar come out of the oil pan at 5000 mi..

I've seen service manuals for cars with oil changes exceeding 7500 miles.. NO way in hell if that were my car it would be going 7500 mi, especially with some of the engines around i see tar come out of the oil pan at 5000 mi..

If you have "tar" coming out of the oil pan at 5000 miles, you have a problem that no oil change will fix. On the other hand, more than a few here on DP are running synthetic oils for 10K. And some have found that an oil analysis at that point says they can continue running it!

I've been reading. The Allison service manual, p.57, (not the manual that comes with the Duramax) says that, "The transmission sump filter is permanent and does not require replacement except at overhaul." Allison builds and warranties thousands of these things for all sorts of vehicles and service situations. They also sell filters and service. Why would they say that the sump filter is permanent if it should really be replaced as a part of normal servicing — beer or no beer? Why not sell more filters and service, while better protecting the item that they warranty (in non-GM pickup vehicles) by calling for a sump filter replacement? Of course, GM's current warranty is 100k or 5 years — and even they don't call for the sump filter to be replaced. Why not change the air in the tires and routinely dump the window washer fluid. Only a guess, but perhaps Allison knows how important a couple of beers can be — and the satisfaction of a good piss.

I am just passing on info from MY experience with these trucks. I don't really care if you ever change your filter, that's your business. :D

Being an empirical sort of person, I am especially impressed with the evidence from practical experience. I run a Mike L cooler because lots of evidence on DP gives testimony that it works — and that's been confirmed by my own experience since installing one. Allison has been in business for 93 years. Ottomatic's 35 year Alli tech gives the sump filter at least 100K, replacing it during an internal check-up. Eric Merchant gives it 90K. If you have the pan off, why not. When evidence comes along that replacing the sump filter at some interval before overhaul is demonstrated to be important to the life of the transmission, I'll be the first to listen.

Being an empirical sort of person, I am especially impressed with the evidence from practical experience. I run a Mike L cooler because lots of evidence on DP gives testimony that it works — and that's been confirmed by my own experience since installing one. Allison has been in business for 93 years. Ottomatic's 35 year Alli tech gives the sump filter at least 100K, replacing it during an internal check-up. Eric Merchant gives it 90K. If you have the pan off, why not. When evidence comes along that replacing the sump filter at some interval before overhaul is demonstrated to be important to the life of the transmission, I'll be the first to listen.

Cool.:D

I change my internal about every 1.5 years and external every other oil change, I change my oil @ 4000 miles. I figure it's cheap insurance because if you get a restriction on the pump it's going to cost a lot more.

I've seen service manuals for cars with oil changes exceeding 7500 miles.. NO way in hell if that were my car it would be going 7500 mi, especially with some of the engines around i see tar come out of the oil pan at 5000 mi..

I just changed oil in Dmax. It had 12,000 mi on it. AMsoil 15w-40. EAO 52 filter.

My thoughts were Ally tech was telling me to change internal every 50,000 mi and spin on every 10,000

Another thing he stressed was to only use Ally spin on filters. Truck had a Napa on it when I took it in and he said they were junk. .

my take is....


change the spin-on every other oil change. The internal filter should be replaced about every 25-50k depending on the trucks use. Take the extra effort to drop the pan and do a thorough cleaning.

air filters are 15,000 miles right? there is no set amount of miles an air filter can go... it varies on air conditions. All filters are the same way, if you drive hard or use the truck for it's intended purpose then you will want to stay on top of ALL fluids and filters....



Don't forget to put that external filter magnet back on your new filter !

If you have "tar" coming out of the oil pan at 5000 miles, you have a problem that no oil change will fix. On the other hand, more than a few here on DP are running synthetic oils for 10K. And some have found that an oil analysis at that point says they can continue running it!




Probably but again the real point was every vehicle from person to person is different as well... Different conditions and running life, all comes into effect. We've had a string of 5.2 dodge engines that a local food distributor runs about 4-5k miles on an oil change, not too bad right?? All the engines blew due to oil starvation because the oil sludged over time.. Im not saying the manufactures dont know their products, simply stating they are giving a baseline number not knowing what all the conditions people will run in and how the vehicle is used.. I'd gladly change my oil or transmission fluid and filters way before any scheduled date to have that piece of mind.. Sure you can run synthetics and do oil tests and everything, but for the same price i'll do 3 more oil changes with in that span and know my oil is good..


PS- Any dodge 2.7 will sludge if the oil is not change religiously at 3000 miles.. Im talking engines with less that 20k on them that do this.. Every customer we have gets the same lecture.. We've pulled valve covers off and the oil looked like a jello mold of the bottom of the vavle cover. Preventative maintainance is just that, take it for what its worth.. If you have bypass filters and synthetics and checking you oil by all means do whatever works for you. People putting up an arguement about not changing a filter while they are right there, makes no sense to me whether or not the manufacturer recommends it or not.. I hope the manufacturer pays for your transmission if it should fail... On another note, look at all the other transmissions that do not have spin on filters, they have the basic old sump filters, i think those fitlers and flushes are recommended at around 50k or so from what i recall.. Just saying, take it for what its worth, the filter is cheap and its not hard to do, why not.?

Spitz — you have provided hard evidence concerning Dodge gas engines, a pattern of problems. That's good, if we were talking about Dodge. But we weren't — and easily searched threads on DP show that oil can easily go for 10K (obviously depending on what you are doing). While I would certainly sit up and take note if I owned a Dodge, I am still waiting for someone to point out a pattern of Allison transmission failure if the sump filter is not changed. So far, no one has done that. All of us want "peace of mind". But no one wants unnecessary anxiety either. If there is such a pattern of failure, folks should be alerted to it and Allison should be notified. Careful maintenance is important — and worth spending the money on. But no one should be worried and encouraged to have maintenance done that is not necessary. For those of us who DIO, changing the internal filter is inexpensive. Clearly, if you have the pan down, change it. But for others who rely on a shop (especially the dealer), it is not cheap. Of course, transmission damage is not cheap either, but no one has pointed out a pattern of such damage due specifically to the failure to change the sump filter (recommended only at overhaul by Allison). In severe use, which Allison defines in its service manual, the fluid should be dumped every 12K. That certainly assists the life of the internal filter. And if the truck is being worked so hard as to challenge the capacity of the spin-on, then change that more frequently. But I still see no evidence to challenge what Allison recommends concerning the internal filter. Ottomatic, you are right about the 50K — though it is not obvious that the 50K is related to the filter or an internal check-up, or both. BTW, I am curious as to the basic reason for the oil sludging in those Dodge engines. I presuming your shop is not using a bad product. And no quality oil, synthetic or not, should "sludge" in 4-5K. In the final analysis, what was wrong? Toyota had an issue with coking on the rings a while back. They, too, blamed it on oil changes as I recall. But I believe it was ring clearance in the pistons. I don't know Dodge engines, but there is obviously more at issue than oil changes in what you have related.

........ Sure you can run synthetics and do oil tests and everything, but for the same price i'll do 3 more oil changes with in that span and know my oil is good..

Your exactly right. I am going back to Dino and have that piece of mind.

BTW Check out this UOA . Oil was changed every 4,000
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=68533&Number=878274#Post878274


One other note my son who does alot of towing changes his internal every 25,000 mi 0n his 03 Dmax. Oil every 5,000 (dino) ,spin on every 5,000. He considers his schedule at Severe Duty

Im not saying you have to but the way i hear about newbies tearing out their transmissions to install shift kits and what not i cant believe someone would be so uninclined to change a simple filter.. I guess the old saying you have to pay to play is correct. And if there was a pattern failure you certainly wouldnt want it to be on your truck now would you? Thats kind of the point im trying to make. You dont think it could be a problem before a manufacturer address it as so? I've seen countless problems that go unchanged in product lineups the manufacturer refuses to address months or even years down the road.. Take for example Gms famous intake gasket leaks, you dont need to reinvent the wheel but it took them how many years to update the parts, hell even the aftermarket stuck its nose in to help out (and make some money).. lol Im just saying it seems like a simple, cost effective preventative item that should be considered.. The problem lies within how do you know its necessary untill its too late? There is a reason its called preventative maintenance.. I've never seen a transmission filter get clogged either, but you have to take the pan off to clean it and the magnet and voila, the filter is right there for the changing.. You can change your filters as you wish. I usually do mine 30k or so as well as flushign the transmission, its cheap for me as everythign is at my disposal, if it werent and i were paying for it at a dealer i may wait till 60-70k before doing a good service with filters and fluid.. Just my take on it..


Im not sure what causes the issues with a few of these dodge engines, the 2.7's we've seen need clean oil anything over 4k and it starts to go downhill quick, at least with conventional oils.. Would synthetics work better? Probably, its what they are made to do right? Would i extended my drain intervals? No way, not on that car at least.. The cam tensioners are oil fed and are picky on the oil they receive as well.. These engines are also not very cheap to say the least.. I really do believe not following the service routine on that car will lead you into troubles.. The 5.2 and 5.9 on the other hand we've seen blown happened to have oil sludge or some sort of oil sulidified gabage stuck in the pickup screens restricting oil flow.. One we did was losing oil pressure when the engine got hot, we caught that one in time, removed the pan the 1/4 of sludge on the bottom of it as well as cleaning the pickup screen and all was well, told the company to stay up on their oil changes and we havnt had an issue since with them.. The other one thier driver seized pretty tightly however.. I guess the red light screaming at him didnt compute in his head... :)

. I've never seen a transmission filter get clogged either, but you have to take the pan off to clean it and the magnet and voila, the filter is right there for the changing. :)

Spitz — we are really beating this horse. But I appreciate the civil discussion. I have no disagreement that if the pan is off, change the filter. But you don't take the pan off to clean the magnet on the Allison. For most owners, that means going into a shop to change the sump filter. That is not exactly cheap these days. But it would make good sense to spend the money and do it if there were a pattern of Allison failures due to the sump filter. So far, nothing of the sort has been reported and Allison says the filter is permanent. As for the GM intake gaskets, that pattern was there for all to see. What is puzzling is that GM went for so long repairing it under warranty rather than fix it.

But you don't take the pan off to clean the magnet on the Allison .

theres more than one magnet in the allison you know.

I am always ready to learn from the DP members — where's the magnet other than the one on the spin-on? Some Allison applications had one sort of hanging in the pan or in the bottom of the pan (like the Allison 2000P 5-speed). But I don't know of any 1000s in the pickups (unless it would be early ones) with that arrangement — though it is an interesting idea as an add-on.

I am just passing on info from MY experience with these trucks. I don't really care if you ever change your filter, that's your business. :D


Why would anyone want to follow the advice of a guy that has rebuilt hundreds of these transmissions with many of them holding 2x to 3x the factory power?

Oh wait... he HAS rebuilt hundreds of them and many that are holding stupid levels of power...yeah, that might be a good reason!

jb

Cougar — you are easily persuaded. But modifying the Allison has nothing to do with this discussion. As I have noted, Allison, which has actually manufactured and warranties thousands of these transmissions says the internal filter is permanent (as Crafty, who knows this stuff very well, has also observed). Nor does GM, which also warranties these transmissions, require replacement of the internal filter. When I say that I am an empirical sort of person, I mean it; document a pattern of failure specifically due to failure to change the internal filter, and I'll say "Change it"! Now, I am more than capable of changing that filter myself (and did when I went to a deep pan). But I don't believe that it is right to leave people with the impression that it should be changed as a matter of routine maintenance — especially if they have to go into a dealer to have it done.

http://www.allisontransmission.com/servlet/DownloadOnDemand?ApplicationID=155&DownloadID=5&Preview=1

http://www.allisontransmission.com/service/faq/index.jsp?CategoryID=3

Cougar — you are easily persuaded. But modifying the Allison has nothing to do with this discussion. As I have noted, Allison, which has actually manufactured and warranties thousands of these transmissions says the internal filter is permanent (as Crafty, who knows this stuff very well, has also observed). Nor does GM, which also warranties these transmissions, require replacement of the internal filter. When I say that I am an empirical sort of person, I mean it; document a pattern of failure specifically due to failure to change the internal filter, and I'll say "Change it"! Now, I am more than capable of changing that filter myself (and did when I went to a deep pan). But I don't believe that it is right to leave people with the impression that it should be changed as a matter of routine maintenance — especially if they have to go into a dealer to have it done.


Maybe so, maybe not. I am known as a professional skeptic. One thing to keep in mind is that GM only wants the transmissions to last a certain time and number of miles. Allison is the same way, but probably has higher standards. WE want to make the transmissions last longer than either of them. I can't say from personal experience with thousands of transmissions that the internal filter has no impact on longevity. MikeL and others have that experience, so using my experience and judgment I agree that it can't hurt (other than 20 bucks and a half hour of my time) and it may help. I got the 20 bucks and once it warms up will spend the time too.

No big deal.

jb

Everyone looks at this transmission and thinks its unbreakable and immune to dirty fluid and contaminants.. We change filters on every transmission recieving service from us and will continue to do so. So you say it may not help, but im one to say it cannot hurt. I would rather be the skeptic and say allison may be right, but what if not, will they leap into my shop to remove my transmission and rebuild it for nothing, doubtful as well. You can do whatever you desire to do to your tranmission, you spent 40k on this big diesel and cannot do a primitive filter change you probably jumped in over your head, either that or you better have deep pockets.. Knowledge is definatly power, and a money saver. What you are doing is scaring the people that WANT to learn to change thier own filters and do the BASIC services.. You DONT need a 5000$ machine to do it. A very basic socket/wrench set is all thats required to do this filter change..


ps- there are a lot more warrenty claims that you never see and allison sure as hell wont tell you about... No problem has to be "widespread epidemic" to be an issue for ONE person, YOU may be that one person, 1000mi from home.. I bet you'll care then.. Then you can pay the dealer im sure 1500$ or more for the transmission and labor and the hotel and towing and time away from work and the lost vacationing time.. Im just saying it adds up quickly and to NOT do it is very ill thought out.. Its simple, basic services are the backbone of a vehicle that has longevity and reliabilty.. Ask some of our best customers that do EVERY single recommendation we give them and they'll agree with us, and we marvel at the great condition said vehicles are in, even though a lot of them are well over 150kmi and 8-10 years old.... Again do what you want, dont negate peoples interests in doing something thats only a positive thing for their vehicle, not everything is a statistical and financial equation..

One thing to keep in mind is that GM only wants the transmissions to last a certain time and number of miles. Allison is the same way, but probably has higher standards. jb

Originally posted by Spitz: What you are doing is scaring the people that WANT to learn to change thier own filters and do the BASIC services.


I give up. You guys win. Incidentally, I am the guy who created the Detailed Hoot instructions in the DIY section — just to scare folks away from doing something basic! Tomorrow I am going to change the air in my tires. There's no evidence that it's necessary, but it can't hurt. Then, if I can sell the idea to others, it will certainly help me in these difficult times. BTW Cougar, lets ask Spitz if his shop will change that internal filter for your $20. It does not take much reading in DP topics to encounter folks who are livid because a dealer or shop has pushed unneeded service work on them — quite understandable.

Upon occasion, it tickles me to see threads get so far off topic; this one has just about gone full circle.


The OP's questions could be answered if he'd just read the sticky I had placed at the top of this section (and also the maintenance and fluids section, where this topic really belongs). Further, anyone with common sense should be able to look under their truck and see if there is an external spin-on filter (which there clearly is).

If you can, and are willing to, change your engine oil, then you can change your tranny oil. It's LITERALLY that simple. Why do folks go way out of their way to over-complicate things?

I find it ironic that many people who would fiercely defend the honor of Allison as a manufacturer, are often the very same people that think they know better when it comes to maintaining the Allison 1000. Allison says, for all normal serivce, drain/fill with external filter change only. Period.

If you want to do the internal, feel free. But it's a waste of time and money. The filtration capability of the internal filter is no where near as good as the external. The internal is there to (analogy here) catch flying chunks if a catastrophe were to occur, to protect the pump as the fluid is taken in. The external is there for routine service, and does the actual filtering to a much finer level. The internal filter is a glorified piece of waffer board; you can nearly see through it! The external filter is made of tightly packed filtration media specifically designed for full flow filtration, with a beta ratio as good, or better, than many full flow engine filters.

The ONLY time I believe the internal filter is worth the effort to change is either:
a) you have the tranny out for a tear down, and replace the filter per Allison suggestion
b) you are pulling the pan off to do a deep pan upgrade; you're 90% the way at this point, you might as well do it. But only that ONE time when the pan is off for the exchange. After that, you're right back into wasted time and money.

In the old-school days, we gearheads used to curse the mess of tranny fluid/filter changes because we HAD to drop the pan to change filters. Plus, there were no drain plugs in the tranny pan, so the mess was an absolute gaurantee. Now, Allison has put a drain plug on the pan to facilitate easy drains, and an external spin-on filter for the ultimate in convenience. Yet some people STILL insist on making their lives difficult.

If you want to change the internal filter, then go for it! But there is NO NEED to do so, except as Allison states, for a tear down. It's OK to waste you money, because it's yours. If you sleep better at night, then go for it. But realize that some of us understand the mechanics of filtration and common sense, and see through the BS that others profess.

Hypochondriacs wash their hands incessantly, thinking that super-cleaning frenquently and compulsively will somehow make things better. But they often put them selves at risk by actually over-cleaning their skin, drying the skin of it's natural oils, and roughing up the dermis. Cracking open a trans pan seal, to change a filter that is a sieve compared to the external one, so that you can risk getting dirt inside the tranny or along the pan seal, doesn't make much sense either ...

There is no need to run bypass filtration and 8$qt oil either but people as well do this for piece of mind knowing they are doing something good for their vehicles.. Just because you have the pan off changing a filter does not mean thats the only thing going on.. We're cleaning the pan which never collects clutch/metal debris (although mine is always a light greyish tint), checking any internal wiring for rubbing and looking at the deposits left in the pan.. You guys are the ones making this out to be more than what it needs to be.. A lot of places drop the pan to begin with anyhow to clean the inside of it, we do this as well even if the customer does NOT want a filter on it.. A pan drop and filter change can merely cost you 100$ and you do it maybe once every 80-100k.. Do it yourself and it might cost 50$.. I dunno, im done arguing about it because it may cost me money to do it but dammnit, i bought a 40,000 truck to keep and work, im going to maintain my investment even if it is overkill to some people's thoughts..

The Allison filtration scheme is a bypass strategy. The spin-on has low, bypass flow with fine micron filtration, while the suction filter is higher flow and blocks only larger particles. The best thing to do is change the spin-on regularly and the fluid occasionally you'll be fine.

There's an internal pump filter (screen) on the oil pump for engine. Would you crack open the oil pan on your engine too, to clean the screen, so that you feel good about maintenance???

Or, do you just drain the pan using the supplied plug, change the spin-on filter, and go on about your business, like the rest of us ...

Old habits die hard.

Crafty1 - I'll ask because I'm not confident of your comment.

The filter for the Allison spin-on is a full-flow design (up to 10 GPM, depending upon brand), high pressure rated (up to almost 800 psi, again brand dependent), with reasonable, but certainly not "bypass quality" filtration specs (15um nominal; 2/20-15/25 beta).

Just where did you hear that this is a "bypass" filter for the Allison 1000 series tranny? None of the specs support such a conclusion. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I've not seen the detailed hydraulic schematics, but the filter itself is in NO WAY a bypass filter, nor would it have any hopes of being. It is a full flow filter. That's why I say the internal filter is basically a "in case of emergency" filter. The internal does NOTHING, as long as the external filter is in good shape. This is part of the reason you can find some grey matter in the bottom of the pan. However, it hurts nothing being in the bottom of the pan; once it settles, it stays there. The internal filter has no hope of catching material this fine; and because it doesn't, it also negates any reason to change it.

As a contrast, the Ford Torqshift 5R110 tranny has a true bypass filter that is in the fluid line, rather than on the tranny. It is rated at 1um (one micron). And the filter design is truly a bypass design, as it only flows around 5% of the total line flow.

Look at the fleetfilter website for the specs (which is based upon Wix). Other brands such as Baldwin and Donalson are very similar.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt at this point, but I don't see where the evidence supports your comment. Not picking on you; if you're right and I'm wrong, I'm a big boy and can fess up. But I don't see this being true, at this point.

Upon occasion, it tickles me to see threads get so far off topic; this one has just about gone full circle.


The OP's questions could be answered if he'd just read the sticky I had placed at the top of this section (and also the maintenance and fluids section, where this topic really belongs). Further, anyone with common sense should be able to look under their truck and see if there is an external spin-on filter (which there clearly is).

If you can, and are willing to, change your engine oil, then you can change your tranny oil. It's LITERALLY that simple. Why do folks go way out of their way to over-complicate things?

I find it ironic that many people who would fiercely defend the honor of Allison as a manufacturer, are often the very same people that think they know better when it comes to maintaining the Allison 1000. Allison says, for all normal serivce, drain/fill with external filter change only. Period.

If you want to do the internal, feel free. But it's a waste of time and money. The filtration capability of the internal filter is no where near as good as the external. The internal is there to (analogy here) catch flying chunks if a catastrophe were to occur, to protect the pump as the fluid is taken in. The external is there for routine service, and does the actual filtering to a much finer level. The internal filter is a glorified piece of waffer board; you can nearly see through it! The external filter is made of tightly packed filtration media specifically designed for full flow filtration, with a beta ratio as good, or better, than many full flow engine filters.

The ONLY time I believe the internal filter is worth the effort to change is either:
a) you have the tranny out for a tear down, and replace the filter per Allison suggestion
b) you are pulling the pan off to do a deep pan upgrade; you're 90% the way at this point, you might as well do it. But only that ONE time when the pan is off for the exchange. After that, you're right back into wasted time and money.

In the old-school days, we gearheads used to curse the mess of tranny fluid/filter changes because we HAD to drop the pan to change filters. Plus, there were no drain plugs in the tranny pan, so the mess was an absolute gaurantee. Now, Allison has put a drain plug on the pan to facilitate easy drains, and an external spin-on filter for the ultimate in convenience. Yet some people STILL insist on making their lives difficult.

If you want to change the internal filter, then go for it! But there is NO NEED to do so, except as Allison states, for a tear down. It's OK to waste you money, because it's yours. If you sleep better at night, then go for it. But realize that some of us understand the mechanics of filtration and common sense, and see through the BS that others profess.

Hypochondriacs wash their hands incessantly, thinking that super-cleaning frenquently and compulsively will somehow make things better. But they often put them selves at risk by actually over-cleaning their skin, drying the skin of it's natural oils, and roughing up the dermis. Cracking open a trans pan seal, to change a filter that is a sieve compared to the external one, so that you can risk getting dirt inside the tranny or along the pan seal, doesn't make much sense either ...


x2 Thank you for saying what needed to be said in this thread.

OOOOOOOOOKAAAAAAA — dnewton and Crafty, you've have made the same mistake I did: you punched the tarbaby. And dnewton even overlooked the wise admonition at the bottom of his signature. Now we've had it! Perhaps a sympathetic administrator will throw us into the briar patch! On the other hand, this is just too good an opportunity to scare people. Let's continue. Given the wide readership DP has, some folks have already been saved a few bucks. BTW, dnewton — does this thread make you feel like Dilbert?

Crafty1 - I'll ask because I'm not confident of your comment.

hahahahaha you are challenging the wrong person in regards to allison knowledge... :idiot:


The filter for the Allison spin-on is a full-flow design (up to 10 GPM, depending upon brand), high pressure rated (up to almost 800 psi, again brand dependent), with reasonable, but certainly not "bypass quality" filtration specs (15um nominal; 2/20-15/25 beta).

keep trying...

Just where did you hear that this is a "bypass" filter for the Allison 1000 series tranny? None of the specs support such a conclusion. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I've not seen the detailed hydraulic schematics, but the filter itself is in NO WAY a bypass filter, nor would it have any hopes of being. It is a full flow filter. That's why I say the internal filter is basically a "in case of emergency" filter. The internal does NOTHING, as long as the external filter is in good shape. This is part of the reason you can find some grey matter in the bottom of the pan. However, it hurts nothing being in the bottom of the pan; once it settles, it stays there. The internal filter has no hope of catching material this fine; and because it doesn't, it also negates any reason to change it.

:rolleyes:

[I'll give you the benefit of the doubt at this point, but I don't see where the evidence supports your comment. Not picking on you; if you're right and I'm wrong, I'm a big boy and can fess up. But I don't see this being true, at this point.


You are way in over your head. Back out right now.


ben

dnewton3

As Ben has stated, when it comes to the Allison A1000 transmission just take Crafty1 word on it. He knows more about this transmission and how it works than every other member on this forum, bar none!

I really don't see what needs to be argued here. You change the spin on filter every 7500 to 10k miles, you drain and add fluid at 60k or 100k with synthetic fluid. You change the internal filter at a specified interval, why does there need to be arguement?

Can't we just get along? :D

Crafty1 - I'll ask because I'm not confident of your comment.

The filter for the Allison spin-on is a full-flow design (up to 10 GPM, depending upon brand), high pressure rated (up to almost 800 psi, again brand dependent), with reasonable, but certainly not "bypass quality" filtration specs (15um nominal; 2/20-15/25 beta).

Just where did you hear that this is a "bypass" filter for the Allison 1000 series tranny? None of the specs support such a conclusion. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I've not seen the detailed hydraulic schematics, but the filter itself is in NO WAY a bypass filter, nor would it have any hopes of being. It is a full flow filter. That's why I say the internal filter is basically a "in case of emergency" filter. The internal does NOTHING, as long as the external filter is in good shape. This is part of the reason you can find some grey matter in the bottom of the pan. However, it hurts nothing being in the bottom of the pan; once it settles, it stays there. The internal filter has no hope of catching material this fine; and because it doesn't, it also negates any reason to change it.

As a contrast, the Ford Torqshift 5R110 tranny has a true bypass filter that is in the fluid line, rather than on the tranny. It is rated at 1um (one micron). And the filter design is truly a bypass design, as it only flows around 5% of the total line flow.

Look at the fleetfilter website for the specs (which is based upon Wix). Other brands such as Baldwin and Donalson are very similar.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt at this point, but I don't see where the evidence supports your comment. Not picking on you; if you're right and I'm wrong, I'm a big boy and can fess up. But I don't see this being true, at this point.


Crafty is right, sorry man. :o:

dnewton3
You are way out of your league questioning Crafty1.

Really? Well then he won't mind showing or providing his "proof" on why this is a "bypass" filter.

Clearly the design is as a full flow filter; here's my basis for my position.
http://www.fleetfilter.com/Store_ViewProducts_Diesel.asp?Cat=57
scroll down to the Dmax section and open the 57701 sub link. The beta ratio is ABSOLUTELY, CLEARLY in the realm of a "normal" filter, and not a byass filter. It says the application is "full flow". The gpm rating is high, as all full flow filters are. For comparison, on the same link, look at the Ford tranny cartridge fitler; now THAT is a bypass filter.

I fully understand that this link does not guarantee that the 57701 is NOT used as a bypass filter, but the design is such that it's certainly not what most of us would consider a filter worthy of such admonishment.

I said it, and I meant it, that I'd admit it if I'm wrong. But not because a few of you recognize him as some "expert". I like to view evidence and judge for myself. If anyone can provide clear hydrualic schematics for the 1000 series for us all to view, or some type of official Allison link that describes in detail the function of the external filter, then I'll agree that I'm wrong.

Let's consider that he is right, and I'm wrong. What does that mean about the application of this filter? I've just lost a bit of faith in Allison for using such as free-flowing, open filter for a "bypass" system. One of the most conspicuous signs that something is NOT a bypass filter, is the presence of a bypass valve, (which this filter clearly has). Bypass valves are put into filters that are used for FULL FLOW applications, not bypass applications.

Guys, I'm skeptical. It's nothing against Crafty1 personally; I don't know him. But I have yet to be convinced with hard evidence.

He said the filtration scheme has a bypass strategy. He never said the filter was a bypass filter. He also recommended the correct maintenance for the ally, change the spin on and change the fluid. The internal filter is only for overhauls.

Hey everyone is entitled to their opinion, and not even the people who designed this thing agree on everything to be sure... I just try to provide facts or observations that I have from my somewhat unique perspective. I do find it interesting how much focus there is on fluids and filtration though. Certainly, using a good fluid and keeping it clean and free of circulating debris is the name of the game.

dnewton3 you indeed have done your homework and researched facts about the filtration and micron level of the Allison spin-on. Now as to what micron level it takes to qualify for "bypass quality" I'm not here to say, however the strategy employed in the Allison 1000/2000 Series is indeed a bypass strategy. Here goes:

The bulk of fluid drawn from the sump passes through the suction filter to keep out the big chunks, more than a "rock catcher" but lets big enough particles through to stick valves, etc.. Some of the fluid gets recirculated in the front support without being filtered, and a small amount (less than 1 GPM) flows through the spin-on. This is only filtering the oil that is supplied to the solenoids and not full flow to the valve body or clutches. Over time, the fluid gets cleaned in small passes, that is unless there's a big debris generator and then you're taking it apart anyway.

Could it work (better) some other way? Sure possibly, that's been argued too. Does it work, yes. Millions of transmissions and miles driven have proved that. In fact in one instance, two trucks were driven 300,000 miles each in commercial usage, changing only the spin-on and topping off the DEX3 with no issues. I wouldn't recommend it, the fluid was in bad shape, but the transmissions were okay.

As far as the ratings of the filter, this spin-on was taken from an existing filter for the Saturn transmission. What it was originally designed for or how they used it, I don't know. The specific Allison filter is a different length and later added the pressure pop-off inside to aid in cold startup operation.

I'm also not arguing against those who want to keep it clean inside. Clean is good, you certainly can't go wrong there. But wanted to provide some useful information to help those make their own decision as to what they feel comfortable with in maintaining their own transmission.

I don't know about proof, but maybe they say it better than I do in the Allison docs.

From Allison 1000/2000 Principles of Operation:
Page 1, General Description

"vi. Transmission Fluid Filtration
Fluid filtration is provided by two filter systems.
A suction filter, located in the sump, provides
general protection to the entire hydraulic system
by filtering large particulates. A spin-on control
main filter provides full-time protection for the
control solenoids and multipass protection for the
entire system. The spin-on filter is externally
mounted on the converter housing at the lower left
front of the transmission."

Does the torque shift bypass element look like a mini roll of toilet paper to anyone else? :D

Does the torque shift bypass element look like a mini roll of toilet paper to anyone else? :D


Yep ):h

We have an Allison spin on that adapts to the Torque Shift.

Moved to Maintenance & Fluids...

Moved to Maintenance & Fluids...

I think you just killed the thread with this move. This is Allison specific and belongs in the Allison section.

I think you just killed the thread with this move. This is Allison specific and belongs in the Allison section.

X2

First thing to address; I'm the one who asked for this thread to be moved to the "maintenance and fluids section". Why? - Um - because we're discussing fluids, filters and maintenance. This is the correct sub-forum for this discussion.

Second, I want to thank Crafty1 for providing what he could find with this info. I'll say that he was more of a polite gentleman that some of you others. Perhaps you wanted to see an argument or personal attack, but luckily he didn't see it that way, and when I challenged him, he responded with a reasonable attitude, and I appreciate that. I will say now that he "proof" is a bit weak, in that it's very general, and not specific upon the filtration selection criteria, but it certainly describes the function of the system adequately.

Third, I understand the principal that Allison is using for this filter in this application. However, it is much better defined by Crafty1's subsequent explinations, rather than his first comment, (on page 5, post #46) he wrote "The Allison filtration scheme is a bypass strategy. The spin-on has low, bypass flow with fine micron filtration, while the suction filter is higher flow and blocks only larger particles. The best thing to do is change the spin-on regularly and the fluid occasionally you'll be fine." Now, I don't know how you read the english language, but I interpret the words "bypass flow with fine micron filtration" to indicate it's a bypass filter with bypass application. Anyone that's been around filters understands the differences between "full flow" and "bypass" applications. Crafty's subsequent explinations are not exactly in line with what he said in post #46.

Further, I said, in multiple areas, that while you can call anything a "bypass" filter, that doens't make it a bypass application. I fully explained that if Allison is using this filter as a bypass filter, then I've lost faith in them. But in fact, according to the way Crafty later explained it, and the way Allison describes it, the reality is that the spin-on external fitler is a full flow design for the solenoid path. But, because that path is only partial flow to the system, they then state that the filter is a "multi pass" type filter in whole. Specifically, they state "A spin-on control main filter provides full-time protection for the control solenoids and multipass protection for the entire system". What does that mean? It means that the filter is indeed a full flow filter, providing only moderate filtration, and that it serves the whole system, but only with partial flow. That is NOT, IN ANY WAY, the same thing as a bypass filter.

Further, the specs of this filter are good for nominal filtration, but in now way, in any stretch of the imagination, does this filter have "fine micron filtration" as Crafty1 first stated. To be "fine micron", let's just look at what the industry calls "fine" in regard to Amsoil, Filtration Solutions, OilGuard, Frantz, MotorGuard, GulfCoast, etc. To them, fine micron bypass filtration is typically 3um or less, absolute. Not 15um nominal, with 5/20=15/25. If you don't understand this concept, then you need to brush up on what filtration is, and study the concept of Beta ratios. Hey, I wasn't born with this knowledge; I had to read and learn too. But don't even think for a second that you're right if you say this filter is a bypass filter, or a bypass strategy. You're dead wrong if you believe that, for this application in the Allison.

What I will grant you is that, just like the word "synthetic" in how it applies to lubricants, there is a vary wide defintion upon occasion, depending upon who you talk to. That Allison chose to use this filter for a "multi-pass" application is at best, a weak attempt to provide true fine filtration; folks - it just ain't a bypass filter, no matter how you look at it. You can call it one, but that doesn't make it one. Crafty said "The spin on has low, bypass flow ..." The hell if it does! Even his subsequent Allison description shows that it's a full flow filter in the path that it is applied to!

Interestinly, those of you that would make fun of the little "toilet paper" looking filter that Ford uses as a TRUE bypass filter, have got your perspective completely ass-backwards. It's not an issue of brand wars; it's about the proper selection and application of filtration. Ford has spec'd a 1um bypass filter for use, where Allison has used a 15um full flow filter that includes a relieve valve. If anything, the Allison tranny could benefit from adding a filter similar to Ford's, into the Allison system. I realize that you shudder at the thought of Ford out-engineering Allison, but you'll just have to go cry elsewhere, because you won't get sympathy from me. There are plenty of brand-biggoted people here at DP; they will console you. But for people that truly enjoy and appreciate the free exchange of solid information, my point is clear.

So, why does Allison use this filter? Not sure. Only two possible explinations exist. One - they made a mistake. Two - the Allison 1000 design does not require bypass filtration, so it does not get one. It apparently needs full filtration at moderate beta ratings to the solenoids and such, and nothing more. If anyone thinks this little filter is a bypass filter by application in the Allison, they must also think that most engine oil filters are a bypass filter, because they function in a similar fassion and have similar filtering capabilities.

What to know the most bizarre thing? If you look at the core of my position, and the core of Crafty1's position, he and I are actually in agreement. Read back through my numerous posts over the last year regarding this topic; I have always said the fluid drains and spin-on changes are the only necessary maintenance to keep the Alli in good shape. Pan removal, power flushes, etc are overkill and unwarranted. Allison says that, too, in their statement that most of you probably haven't bothered to read. And what does your all-knowning Crafty1 have to say? (again, page #5, post #46)
"The best thing to do is change the spin-on regularly and the fluid occasionally you'll be fine." Gosh, isn't that what I've said all along?

So, do I owe Crafty1 an apology? Nope. I owe him gratitude, for being polite and forthcoming. But did he prove this filter to be a bypass filter with "fine micron filtration" as he first claimed? No way in hell. But I don't hold that against him. Crafty1 deserves my respect, because he went out and found the information I requested. I don't know what he does for a living; maybe he's an Alli tech for all I know. But I don't owe him an appology because 1) I'm not wrong; the spin-on is NOT a bypass filter, nor is it used in such in this application, and 2) he and I both agree on the proper maintenance routine for the Allison 1000 tranny.

This keeps getting better an better

And what does your all-knowning Crafty1 have to say? (again, page #5, post #46)

you are still an idiot, and everyone else in this thread thinks so, for trying to second guess him and pretend you are on the same level of knowledge. :idiot:

So, do I owe Crafty1 an apology? Nope. I owe him gratitude, for being polite and forthcoming. But did he prove this filter to be a bypass filter with "fine micron filtration" as he first claimed? No way in hell. But I don't hold that against him. Crafty1 deserves my respect, because he went out and found the information I requested. I don't know what he does for a living; maybe he's an Alli tech for all I know.)

yeah maybe. :rolleyes:

ben

dnewton, you are entitled to your opinions and while you make some valid points, Crafty1seems to be very knowledgeable about the Allison, and its workings, why are still questioning that? The torqshift is not any greater than the Allison, just because it is a bypass filter system, and the Allison is not. I mean that is what I understood from your latest post. The torqshift has problems too, the ally is top of its class in trannys. Ford guys tell me when they see my truck if it has an ally, I say hell yeah! They are jealous! Why, because they know that the Allison is a great performing, operating transmission. I have no reason or understanding why its personal, it isn't.

I think dnewton3 took it personally because some of you made personal remarks because he "questioned" Crafty1 on his information. I personally don't think dnewton3 did anything wrong or offensive to Crafty1. No matter how knowledgable someone is on a subject their is always someone with more knowledge and none of us learn without asking questions....infact many times the person being questioned may learn more having to indeed support their positions. I know Crafty1 is very knowledgable, but so is dnewton3, and in my opinion their isn't one person in this country...let alone this world that is above being questioned....imagine if our leaders were above any type of questioning or reproach...it is just silly to berate someone for this. Especially since everyone is wrong or makes mistakes once in awhile. I personally enjoy when two people who are very knowledgable on this site compare idea's because I learn more about things that I may not have even had the first idea on how they worked.

I think dnewton3 took it personally because some of you made personal remarks because he "questioned" Crafty1 on his information. I personally don't think dnewton3 did anything wrong or offensive to Crafty1. No matter how knowledgable someone is on a subject their is always someone with more knowledge and none of us learn without asking questions....infact many times the person being questioned may learn more having to indeed support their positions. I know Crafty1 is very knowledgable, but so is dnewton3, and in my opinion their isn't one person in this country...let alone this world that is above being questioned....imagine if our leaders were above any type of questioning or reproach...it is just silly to berate someone for this. Especially since everyone is wrong or makes mistakes once in awhile. I personally enjoy when two people who are very knowledgable on this site compare idea's because I learn more about things that I may not have even had the first idea on how they worked.

Sure, I don't mind a challenge based on facts, figures and observations. That's valid information that we all have gained from our experience. Understanding is putting it all together and making sense of it based on logic, physics, etc...

To quote Minn-kota's sig:"Arguing with an engineer is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig. After a few hours, you realize that he likes it."

Besides, no one can know everything or have the time to do everything. The Allison, or most any complex product, wasn't designed by one person, but a group of people each with their own area of expertise. That team, what they do and how they interact makes it what it is.

Since I too am located in Indianapolis, maybe dnewton3 and I should discuss this futher over a cold one... I'm much better at talking than typing!

Hey, Crafty1, I'd like that! (my typing sucks as well)

I threw the first volley, so I'm obligated to buy the first round of brew!

I'll PM you.

I've been in this thread — and appreciate both dnewton and Crafty1 and the information they provided. Though I am not an engineer, I have enjoyed the wrestling. As I noted earlier, a couple of beers can be very important.

Interestinly, those of you that would make fun of the little "toilet paper" looking filter that Ford uses as a TRUE bypass filter, have got your perspective completely ass-backwards. It's not an issue of brand wars; it's about the proper selection and application of filtration.



Lol, wound up for nothing.. I was asking if anyone else has seen one and found it funny it does look like a toilet paper roll! No humor allowed? :)

Lol, wound up for nothing.. I was asking if anyone else has seen one and found it funny it does look like a toilet paper roll! No humor allowed? :)

no









i do like watching the romance that just brewed though .

Sorry, Spitz. You are certainly allowed a little humor. My appologies.

BTW - cellulose based filter media (toilet paper) is an excellet element for bypass fitlers. Check out the Frantz and Motorguard websites!