I plan on getting a compression tester this afternoon, maybe get numbers later tonight, but probably tomorrow is more likely.

First question: Why is all the excess blow coming from the CDR, none from the oil filler or dipstick tube, this is with the CDR tube pulled from the turbo and just the venting from that head?

I put my stethascope everywhere, very tough call for any difference in sounds except when i stuck it in each intake runner while running and nearly blew out my eardrums. Without the stethascope there is definately some kind of woofing coming from the turbo side. Sounds more like a header leak on a gasser yet that wouldn't account for the miss too, just noise.

I had similiar sounds coming from my 6.2 and turned out to be a burnt valve. A compression test should surely tell.

Remove the cap from the filler tube, seal the CDR outlet, watch if the blow exits the filler tube.

CDR is strait thru at ambient Baro

Plugged the CDR, OK, now it blows out the filler and will build some pressure if i don't take my hand off.
I looked for a comp tester, no-one has one for diesels, can order overnight but i'm not sure i want to spend $130 up to $250 for one. Maybe i'll just pull it apart, undecided here. To cheap to buy something i'll probably only use once or twice.

common now, build a tester. go to hardware store, get a guage and an 1/8 brass pipe threaded connector and link the two together with assorted fittings. I did this since my gasser Comp tester only goes to 250.

I was going to build a tester after the run around but wasn't sure of what was needed for correct thread connection into glow plug holes so i said to hell with it.

Went home and started to rip it down.

Started on the passenger side as thats where i think the problem is.
That damn valve cover was almost welded in place, bent the hell out of it trying to pry it loose, they must be using super glue in the factory! Oh well, I've always wanted chrome anyways.
I was hoping for a bent pushrod, didn't happen... they appear fine when rolled on a flat surface.
The rockers seemed to be rather loose fitting on their shaft? Once i remove them there was alot of up/down play on the shaft, is that normal?

Here's a couple of pics of the progress so far in a couple of hours tonight.
The one pic is just to show where my pyro was located, i think i'll move it to the manifold when it goes back together. (that could be a couple of months from now)

I noticed you have a lot of red RTV on the oil drain for the turbo. That's a no, no. To much there will restrict oil draining out of the turbo and cause the turbo to blow oil.

You could use a rubber tip air nozzle and blow air in each glowplug hole to see which one is loosing compression. Hard part is getting each piston on top dead cylinder.

I might have been a little heavy on the RTV there when i did the hi-pops, i kept it well away from the oil drainage hole but i guess when i did up the bolts it squished out farther then i would have liked. The old gasket looked good so i just touched it up with RTV. Had a gasket sitting on the shelf but it didn't leak.

I don't need TDC with the rockers/pushrods removed do I, or will it want to roll over with 100 PSI?

I don't need TDC with the rockers/pushrods removed do I, or will it want to roll over with 100 PSI?

Just asking this question again?

Diesel Pro i should be able to get you those tip numbers tonight.

you don't need tdc with rockers removed but the piston will move to bdc when you apply pressure then it will stop then you can pressurize cyl and listen to intake, exhaust , other cyl, rad make sure cap is off if head gaskit is leaking you will pressurize rad it does not like 100psi and crank case but i usualy only do this test after a compression test to find out what failed to give me low compression at this point you do not know if that is the case

Well i wasn't able to find a fitting to fit the glow plug holes, go figure, pretty much all in Canada is metric and i can't find a 10mm thread to go there. Pulled the passenger exhaust manifold, down pipe & x-over. (note to self - tap for pyro & back pressure guage)

Rigged up a 1/8 npt, fits somewhat and only hand tightened in the hole. I still have all the plugs in the drivers side. I only pressured the passenger side to 25 psi just to see what happened, used the stethascope to listen at the intake runners, exhaust port etc. #6 appears to be leaking back out the intake valve but i'm not 100% certain yet and ran out of time tonight. I will redo this tomorrow @ 50 psi and listen again. Pistons didn't move with only 25 psi.

I'm assuming its normal for some air to pass the pistons into the crank case??

Sorry DP, i didn't get an injector pulled. Maybe tomorrow.

This is where a dual gauge leakdown tester is needed.

CanadianRigger
I would like to know how you got the valve covers off without taking the injector lines off first. Which means taking the intake manifold off before the injector lines.

CR,
Not necessarily the piston leaking the pressure, more likely the valve IMO. Head can be bench tested for pressure, cracks in the piston are visual.
I used a rubber hose 2" long off the comp. tester, worked fine for figuring a cylinder with 0 psi compression might not work for tiny differences.

This is where a dual gauge leakdown tester is needed.
Could you please explain this further Billman? I am a little dumb when it comes to this.

CanadianRigger
I would like to know how you got the valve covers off without taking the injector lines off first. Which means taking the intake manifold off before the injector lines.
You have to remove all the retainers holding the lines in place, i also dropped the alternator from in front of the head, yours probably has the A/C compressor there. Then you'll have to bend the lines up to slip out the valve cover out the front, wasn't fun but was do-able.

Can anyone tell me if the oil pan can be dropped without removing stuff or lifting the engine? Looks pretty tight down there.

CR,
Not necessarily the piston leaking the pressure, more likely the valve IMO. Head can be bench tested for pressure, cracks in the piston are visual.
I used a rubber hose 2" long off the comp. tester, worked fine for figuring a cylinder with 0 psi compression might not work for tiny differences.
So should no air go past the piston rings into the Crank Case, cause if thats the case every cylinder on that side leaks! I will test again tonight with more pressure but listening through the intake i only noticed 1 cylinder coming back into the intake, nothing appeared to come out any of the exhaust ports.

A dual gauge leakdown tester will help pinpoint leaks.

Filling the cylinder to a specified pressure with one gauge and note percent loss/held on second gauge. All the while listening for lost compression through Intake/Exhaust valves, rings, etc.

Try this...
http://www.tavia.com/cat8.html

Test should be conducted on warmed up engine, as close to operating temp as possible. Piston at TDC.

Interesting stuff but i'd have to put it back together now. Already have manifolds off, downpipe, x-over and a bunch of others off. Guess i'll just give her some more air and see.

Should there be no leakage past the pistons at all?

on a K series you have to lift the engine enough to justify unbolting the tranny, ect and pulling it out. :D but if you read my one piston rebuild awhile back, I just jacked the engine tranny to the physical limit and had almost enough romm, but someone saiddropping the front axle was easier.

You're going to have some leakdown. It won't/can't be perfect. At least I've never seen it.

For the record, I've never leaked down a TD before, only my Gas Race Engines.

Anything above 90-92% was acceptable. That's 8-10% leakdown.

When you say 90% is that from your starting pressure over a certain amount of time, cause my 25 PSI was gone PDQ into the CC on all of em.

Shop air is hooked to the tester(inlet), the other end goes into the cylinder(outlet).

The first gauge shows constant regulated pressure. 100psi is normally used.

The second gauge shows what the cylinder can hold.

CR,

During my recent "mishap" in Orlando, I dropped the front axle to remove the pan. Not too bad. Far easier than jackin' the engine.

I knew i should have done the 6" lift, my 95 has ooooodles of room under there!

Leak down test will always have air going into the pan. the rings are not a perfect seal. A true leak down tester uses two gauges in tandem with a small orvice in between the two gauges. You set both gauges to say 100 psi while not connected to the engine and the end plugged. You then connect to the cylinder and read the second gauge closest to the engine cylinder. Say the cylinder gauge reads 90 PSI. You have a ten percent drop when hooked to that cylinder, so it's at 90 percent. When I worked on race engines we tried to get no more than 4 percent leakge after run in. 8 percent would be considered good on a ran engine. 12 percent on a street rod. If you have air coming from a valve, hit the valve while pressurized it may have trash under the seat.
As a side note my uncle said he used to do this on his crop dusters when a seat would come loose in the aluminum head. He'd pop it real hard and it would reseat and he'd go back to flying.

Thanks DP, now i understand how its suppose to work! Not sure how wacking a valve would work, i thought it already had 400+ PSI when running, wouldn't that dislodge something foreign.

On second thought being an intake valve i could see that working if its just something stuck in there.

You wack the valve and the out going air blows the debris out from under the valve. Say you took the glowplug and spun the engine to TDC. A small amount of carbon got dislodged in the glowplug removal and stuck under the valve. The test would then show up as a bad valve. By wacking the valve you can eliminate that scenario.

Don't go around wacking your valve like Gmdieseltech or your keys will become sticky.

eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

C.R., since you have a lot of the crap out of the way on the rt side of the engine, why not dig a little further. Remove the valve cover and take off the rocker shafts. These are non adjustable so real quick to reistall. Now do your leak down test and since you will have the intake off, it will be very easy to issolate and you won't have to worry about the engine being at tdc because both valves will be closed. And crank up the air pressure to over 100 psi if possible. If you hear air leaking from a valve, smack the stem with a rubber hammer and see if it gets better. Besides this will put you one step closer to what probably needs to happen next, removal of head:( :grd: Let us know what you find.

Rockers are off the passenger side and thats how i pressured up with 25 psi. I haven't had the time yet to try 100 psi or remove the intake or drivers valve cover.

I had a question earlier about if those rockers are suppose to be able to move up/down on the shaft but didn't get an answer yet?

Mine seem excessive but the shafts are still smooth. I may just replace all the rockers/shafts/pushrods if this is excessive play but would like to find something tougher than stock to replace with.

I'm sure at the least the passenger head will come off but i'm trying to see for sure that the problem is below the head.

Yes, unfortunately that is very normal, brand new ones are sloppy like that too.

Can anyone tell me the correct procedure for removing the head bolts. eg: back them off in any particular sequence, from the middle out 1/4 turn at a time, anything??

never heard anyone taking head bolts off in sequence i just undo them with an impact gun in no particular order just use new bolts and torque in sequence when you are butting it back together

I got to pressure up each cylinder to 100 PSI, only thing i could tell was each piston hitting BDC, maybe some slight air from the back 2 holes.

Well i finally got down under the passengers head tonight, what a pain in the ass that was. I see no obvious signs the head gasket was leaking, no piston cracks, no burnt pistons, no badly cracked head, the gasket was pooched over the alignment pin but i think i did that removing the head, not sure. A couple of valves seem a little eccessive for carbon build-up around the seat, may be the problem under high pressures. Pre-cups have 1 hairline crack on each side of the opening. All cylinders still have cross hatching very visible even if it doesn't show in the pics, no ridges in the cylinders.

Question, what should i use to clean the carbon from the pistons so i can check for cracks below the carbon? Steel wire wheel, brass wheel, what?

Look at the pic with the PMD, that's done from a dealer, 1 easy to get a bolt was missing and i can wiggle it by hand!!!

Diesel Pro, i'm not sure the numbers your looking for so try these - Nozzle numbers - DN O SD 311 - 387 (902) - 1 shim above the spring.

Please my friends, feel free to give me some help/advise if you can.

Pics

Nice pictures, from what I can see, your pistons look good, cracks are usually very visible. I don't know that I would spend much time trying to remove the carbon from the pistons unless you can be reasonably sure that you can get it cleaned up real well, a vacuum while scraping works good. The small carbon particles have a way of getting down between the piston and bore and the upper compression ring then it is real hard to remove.

A power wire wheel works great on the head, looks like some build up around the valves. It might not be a bad idea to pop out a couple of the suspect valves, check for stem wear and hand lap them and see how they look. When inspecting the rest of your heads, the only concern is making sure cracks on precups do not reach the firering of the gasket. In my opinion, small cracks in between the valves with no traces of coolant(your head looks good) require no further attention. You might want to have your injectors tested since they are out. After wire wheeling the head and carfully scraping the deck of the block, I like to take a straight piece of steel and wrap it with a piece of wet dry 100 or 180 grit sand paper and flatten the head. I like to use wd 40 or similar for this process. I dont use the sand paper on the deck with the pistons in the block for the same reason I advise against removing the carbon from the piston tops. Make sure to run a tap through all of the head bolt threads to clean them for even torqueing. Fel pro offers head bolts a lot cheaper than GM, under 30.00 US for a set of 17. Since you are down this far already, may as well take a look at your lifters also. You are just looking for excessive play in the roller. So far looks good, now just to find that miss. Kind of wishing we had results of a compression test. You might want to do one on the other bank before tearing it apart. I still favor a compression test over a leak down test, because it gives you a better comparision. Good luck.

Close up on #4 valves. This may be where the problem is.

Brass wire wheel or steel?
I still have no compression tester to test the other side.

That spot does look suspect for a leaky valve alright. There is a kit available to replace the valve seats with an insert, but you'll have to take the head to a machine shop.

I spray carb cleaner on the piston carbon and wipe it out with a shop towel. wire brush will score the ceramic coating.

Arn't you happy the cracks in the heads and not the block?

Steel wire wheel works fine. That looks like a little coolant seeping to make those deposits. Head gasket could have been getting close to failing. Remove the valve, get a hand lapper(wooden rod with a suction cup) and some valve lapping compound. Lap the valve and then inspect the seat and valve. If you have good contact pattern you are good to go. Don't wire wheel the seats, just on the outside of them. good luck.

Besides the very tiny cracks in the pre-cups i see no cracks in the heads, will know more when they're cleaned up.
Arn't you happy the cracks in the heads and not the block?

Yes but do the cylinder walls ever crack? I haven't rolled it over since removing the head.

Cylinder walls do crack, but not very often. Symptoms would be much more severe than what you have. Water out the exhaust, water in oil, severe pressure in coolant. Your problem is probably minor, probably just a head gasket starting to go, maybe minor leaking between two cylinders. Would be nice to see something giving a more positive result.

Here, you'll be wanting this soon...

Coat the threads on each head bolt with TEFLON pipe thread sealant.
Follow this sequence, first just finger tight, then 20 ft/lbs, then 50, then 90 degrees.

If its hard to read it goes...

14 10 6 2 3 7 11 15
17 9 1 8 16
13 5 4 12

What do you plan on putting it back together with, TTY bolts? Both sets I've put in so far have been coated out of the box.

Thanks TDG, i needed that.
It would also be nice if someone had the intake sequence?

I'm still in the dismantaling phase. I'm a little slow at it and i'll be damned if i'll be able to figure out what came from where when its time to go back together. I'll either be sending the heads out when the other ones off or picking up a set from DSG i think. Pump is about ready to come out, timing covers off, i hope i get the gears timed right going back in or i'll really be swearing.
I'll be adding in the gear set from DSG. Probably pic up a 92mm pump from Westers if its available. All these wires need to be re-routed, what a mess in there. Fuel filter pot will get tossed as i will add in another above the intake. So far i only see 1 option for getting a decent intercooler so i hope your listening Kennedy and have one ready to go on the shelf when i call. PMD will likely find a new home but i'll need to pick up an extension harness somewhere.
I think i've sourced out felpro head gaskets, head bolts and the whole kit of gaskets for around $80. Is that good?

I'm sure this thing won't be back together for at least 2 months!

Thanks for the nozzle number. I notice a little water errosion on that one piston. I notice a lot of pistons have a shiny area around the edge of the piston. Is that from head gasket protrusion into the cylinder? I've seen that before and I wonder if all of them do that?

I prefer the totally clean method of rework - all surfaces clean, inspected, and dry, free of previous operational liquids, oil, and such.

Run each piston to the top of the cylinder, plug\cover adjacent holes in the deck with paper towels or such to keep the carbon out of the block, particularly the lifters area.

Wire brush the carbon, brush off with a 1" paint brush, blow off any excess with air - shop, or 'blow' side of a good vacuum cleaner.

Scrape or wire brush the cylinder deck - paper can be removed from the bolt holes and others with needle nose pliers.

Keep the lifter chamber clean.

Diesel fuel for the excess, then enamel-type paint thinner or varsol for final cleanup to remove the Diesel fuel oil.

Now's a good time to clean out the valley area - Diesel fuel first, then paint thinner.

Lacquer thinner can be used for really quick-dry.

Same for the valve covers, rocker arm assemblies, timing cover etc - anything with soot\blackened oil.

And, for the critics - yes, you would want to eat off it, if necessary.
Just be sure and clean up after that particular deviation, also.;)

I was just looking for the menu to order from. Sounds like a nice clean rebuild to me.
Nice job

All excellent info, i really appreciate it. I"m not 100% sure DP but i think for the most part the shiny area's of the pistons were caused by the flash. Here's some more close up pics.

Keep the comments and suggestions coming!

It looks like the carbon was building on the pistons when they were hot. The deposits are off on the side, not really an even buildup across the lower portion.

The shiny area is not on those pics. It was on the other pistons, around the edge. I have one on my desk just like it. Guess I'll have to pay a visit to my local builder and check it out. Looks like gasket was protruding into the combustion area. The above piston appears a little burnt. Like EGT's been a little high.

The shiny portion around the edge of the piston is the way they are made. The tops of the pistons are anodized to help evenly distribute heat. The anodizing doesn't go all the way to the edge, it is stopped about 1/8 inch from the edge, this is the polished area you see, it is not from piston hitting gasket.:cool:

So can i wire wheel the piston tops? Do they all look to be ok for another 100k or have the EGT's been to high on a couple of em? Please help as i really don't want to drop the pan!

Here's some more pics. The PMD bolts were hand tight, turned em out by finger. All 3 of them as the fourth seems to be MIA. Is there a special wrench for those injector lines on the back of the pump? what a PITA without it if there is.

Question: Where's the resistor and how do i get at it to see its number?

Does it even matter what the number is seeing i have a re-flash?
What is considered the heat transfer pad? I pulled off what looked to be a very skinny piece of ??, thin as paper.

TDG when i send this pump to whoever do i keep the wires off the back or send them with the pump?

the 4th pic in the post above the one you are looking in the plug of the pmd is a perfect pic of the resistor you see it around all the pins with the silver around pins 4 and 5 you should be able to read a # right there

it is a #4 i can read it in the pic

You have a #4 resistor.

Changing to the 'Famous #9' will increase your fuel delivery by 1.5mm...

Thats what i thought but didn't want to sound too stupid.
So i'm guessing here but does the whole assembly come out of the connection with say a couple of paper clips bent to fit the end holes? Just don't want to wreck a perfect PMD (soon to be FSD)

Hook the end of paper clip, grab ovals in resistor and it comes up & out, sometimes 1 side than other a little as you go, gets it out easier than trying to grab both sides

Thanks, i'm surprised its only a #4. What about the being re-flashed question?

I didn't say the piston was hitting the gasket. If it was polished around the edge wouldn't it be shiny all the way around? Never saw an anodized piston. I would pull all eight, if your planning on making some serious HP. That piece of paper is the heat pad. They say replace it everytime. They work real well. Place it up against something real hot and then touch it you'll see, oops feel what I mean.

All 6.5's have anodized piston tops from the factory. The pistons in your pictures look good. Clean them however you like, but try not to leave any scratches in the top of the piston and try not to damage the anodizing. A sharp razor could work well or a brass brush or a hard plastic scraper might even be better.:)

Thanks, i'm surprised its only a #4. What about the being re-flashed question?
Relash does not take into account FSD resistor it's blind to it put in the #9 if you want

Looked at a 6.5 piston and yes Indeed, It does appear to be anodized. Looks like the upper ring grove is also anodized. Looks to me they left extra material around the top of the piston. Dipped the upper part of the piston to be anodized then carefully machined off around the top and the side of the piston, exposing the raw aluminum underneath. I wonder why the anodizing was machined off? Or was it machined off? Thanks, Camilleri!

Question, whats the diff from head bolts vs head studs? It was brought up today while chatting with someone while i was ordering parts.

TDG, there should be an order for a 92mm pump by tomorrow, guess where its going...):h

Head bolts are torque to yield, you only get to use them once. Head studs are made out of real good stuff and cost shows it. With studs on a engine, pulling heads without pulling engine may or maynot be possible. If I ever built another hot rodder it will have studs.

As for earlier discussion on pistons, I believe the upper ring groove on the piston is a steel insert to keep the groove from getting pounded out.;)

since we are on the subject of head studs i was wondering do they get torqued the same since head bolts are torque to yield they stretch to give the correct torque the studs will not stretch so if you turn the 90* i think that they will be at a higher torque not sure though??

The 6.5 pistons have no steel in them, I checked.

Head studs have fine threads which in itself requires a different torque.

so you would go by the 6.5 torque sequence but follow the stud manufacturers torque spec??

since we are on the subject of head studs i was wondering do they get torqued the same since head bolts are torque to yield they stretch to give the correct torque the studs will not stretch so if you turn the 90* i think that they will be at a higher torque not sure though??
All bolts/studs stretch when torqued, In fact thats what torquing is designed to do, BUT I don't know the correct torque for head studs but I would think that those instructions would come with the stud kit??

OK so now i kinda understand the diff a little bit. Now its stupid question time, what i'm wondering is when installing the heads and torquing to spec whats the +90* suppose to mean on the final pass? I have a chart with four passes from GM, the final being +90 degree's. So is that suppose to be another 1/4 turn after torquing to 55 ft lbs?

That is correct CR. There is a special gauge made for doing this procedure, called a torque angle meter. The one I bought from autozone was only about 10.00 US. The meter makes torquing a lot easier. With the engine on a stand, and using a breaker bar, getting the last 90 degrees is pretty easy, but doing it in the engine bay is a lot harder. Some engineers feel that the torque angle method is a more uniform torque method than torquing the bolts with a torque wrench. The first few years that the 6.2 was out the torque for the head bolts was around 105 ft lbs then they changed to the torque to yield and also changed the bolts. The bad part about torque to yield bolts is that if you happen to get a defective bolt, unless you are real good at feeling torque, you won't know it. I usually set a torque wrench to a hair under what I think the torque is and go over all of the bolts after I am done. The reason I do this is because I have had some bad new head bolts that never would torque and I am glad I found them when I did or I would have been doing the job over again.


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<HR style="COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->Whatever 18:1s they are selling, they are not Mahle, or at least not unmodified Mahle.


I have the std Mahle units and wouldn't touch anything without a steel ring carrier.
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2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC-Long Pewter/Tan LT
13.2@101.99 #2 12.6@106.99 #2/N20 at 7800#
2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC-Long Sandstone/Tan LT
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Diesel pro, as far as the steel in the top ring groove, I was just repeating something that Kennedy stated when we were having a discussion on Mahle pistons, I never got around to checking for myselfhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/exactly.gif So maybe I misunderstood what he was saying. Maybe I will go and cut an old one in half for fun.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif

Drivers head is off, all looks good but it was late, i will have a better look later today. That head is probably worse getting off because of the inaccessible exhaust studs behind the stearing that were tighter than a nuns you know what. And what idiot decided to bolt the wire harness to the back of the head, nice time to find that out while lifting the head!

I'm heading to DSG either tonight or tomorrow a.m. Picking up new heads, bolts, gaskets, phazer kit and some other odds and ends. Anyone need anything on my way?

TDG, hows my pump coming along? :D

All bolts/studs stretch when torqued, In fact thats what torquing is designed to do, BUT I don't know the correct torque for head studs but I would think that those instructions would come with the stud kit??It has a few different ways to do it on the instructions. It says 90 ft lbs with thread lock or 130 ft lbs with 30 wt oil on the threads to lubricate them.
Torque is based on 75% yeild strength.

The whole kit.

I need some help with decifering these pics. I couldn't tell by eyeball on the pistons so i had to take close up shots. The heads are obvious.

Are these the start of or cracks in the pistons?

Is that a rod?!!

Piston tops QM. Right in the line of fire.

First one is between a couple of valves. #1 & #8 are cracked like pictured, others have minor cracks between valves.

I just don't know if these are cracks in the piston head or not. Wanted a professional opinion.

Another question what wires can i do away with on the filter canister without getting codes? I have 2 sets of wires on this one and would like to do away with them all if possible as i want to add a different set-up on the firewall.

Are you putting in new pistons? Those cracks can't be good.

Are they cracks though??? Anyone else please care to comment?

Another question what wires can i do away with on the filter canister without getting codes? I have 2 sets of wires on this one and would like to do away with them all if possible as i want to add a different set-up on the firewall.
The three wires on the side are the water sensor and the two wires on the side are for the fuel/filter heater. I would just move the stock filter and keep using it.

Carey

The pistons don't appear to be cracked, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be the start of a later crack. Pistons appear to have had some definate heat. You could get some dye check and spray pistons. It is a crack checking method that works well on aluminum. You spray on the dye and then the developer and if there is a crack it will show up. This product is available at most welding suppliers. As for your heads, those cracks are so common. The safest way is to pressure test the head, but most of those cracks never reach the water jacket and are not a big cause for concern. Many people preffer to err on the side of caution and have the repair procedure done, which inserts a special valve guide into the bore of the water jacket between the valves. Personally, I have run dozens of heads with cracks between the valves and have yet to ever have one leak. My rule of thumb is if there is no coolant discoloration at the crack, I don't worry about them. 99% of the time the traces of coolant that is seen on the pistons and around the valves is from a seeping head gasket. I used to pressure test a lot of these heads and I got bored with never finding these cracks leaking. I am sure that there are some cracks that make their way to the water jacket, but I think that many people have been sold new heads that didn't need them and many good heads have been discarded due to these minor cracks. For me those cracks are simply not a concern. On the other hand, any other crack in the combustion chamber area of the head is usually reason to discard the head.

Heads as per DSG's website.
Some other trinkets purchase while there. Now i know where they get their extension harness for the PMD.

Hey, looks like some fun toys you got there ;)

wow never seen new heads for a diesel i put all my diesels together with bubble gum and scotch tape the gear drive looks alot like the pete jackson unit in by big block

Fun toys with a heavy price tag. Now i just have to find someone to put them in...lol

hey you took it apart you put it together:D

I managed to get my fuel filter moved today, cleaned up the deck some more for re-install of the heads, chased the threads for the bolts. Pulled the timing chain and gears and added in the gear set, still some work to do.

If you can see the position of the timing chain in the 2 pics you should notice a lot of movement there, i think its excessive but haven't seen a new one before its been worn in.

I don't have a manual guys but hows the timing look, am i lined up right? Don't mind the blood on the cam gear!

I like the spot where your filter housing is, was it hard to do?

That timing chain has a lot of slop in it aswell, maybe i should do that too.

Good work keep the pics flowing

Thanks

Specs for a new chain are .500 inches of play and used max is .700.:rolleyes:

Hey CR, I don't know if there is anything to it but I have heard that a gear drive on a 6.5 is a sure fire way to snap cranks and crack blocks-:t . You might want to do a little research about it before you button it all back up. I'd hate to see all your hard work go to waste. Could all be rumors though, just wanted to mention it just in case.

Hey CR, I don't know if there is anything to it but I have heard that a gear drive on a 6.5 is a sure fire way to snap cranks and crack blocks

Well now doesn't that one suck if its true... i was planning on the stud girdle kit but for the time being i'll run the way it is. If i lift it the 6" later on i will add it then.

I like the spot where your filter housing is, was it hard to do?

Easy when its in pieces. Might be a little tougher with the heads and intake in the way.

Infinitely more 6.5 blocks and cranks have broken with timing chain sets than with the gear set - no need to worry on that myth.

Just make sure the idler pair do not bind when timing cover is torqued down, as per instructions.

Thanks GMCTD.

Is there an downloadable manual for the 6.5 somewhere. I could use the info, just wondering what, if any, bolts need thread lock or sealer for water or oil passages.

Well, that could have something to do with the fact that probably 99.95% of the 6.5's out there are running timing chains. The reason that these people had said the gear drives were causing problems in was due to a harmonic that they caused which in turn caused a much higher incidence of cracks and broken cranks. Not trying to be a jerk or anything like that, don't get me wrong. I just don't want to see someone have a problem that might have been avoided. I know I sure can't afford a new engine every couple months. Just thought that it was worth some reseach.

You are right FF - the ratio is to the chain side.

However, Pen is offering the gearset as standard on their hi-perf engines, now that a very considerable number have exceeded the hundred thousand mile mark with no problems.

The chainset also creates bad harmonics, as the chain flaps and jerks from increasing wear, but the majority of failure has been attributed to failed harmonic balancer, accessory drive pulley, and dual mass flywheel.

And, just plain old bad block castings.

In some of those cases, the crank broke without damaging the block, and\or the block broke without damaging the crank.

Go figure....

You might try ALLTEST, CR - they charge for the service, but it is complete, with all updates.

all test.com??

Could be AllTest or AllData - something like that.

It's been mentioned here, b4.

Or, you might get a Chilton manual - it's sufficient for re-assembly, most pics are verbatim to the GM Factory Service Manuals.

alldatadiy.com it's ok.. but I really prefer the Helm books.

Thanks GMCTD. Does anyone make a good aftermarket balancer? A Fluidamper would be nice):h

Fluidampr is too busy making dampers for the 5.9, 6.6 and powerstroke diesels (which apparently don't have issues with their dampers, and one diesel may even come from the factory with one). I am beginning to think the 6.5 diesel is the Rodney Dangerfield of the diesel market.

You'd think the manufacturers would pay more attention to forums like this to see what customers want and/or need. But I guess it's like the old saying:


Don't let fear and common sense hold you back!:rolleyes:

The 6.5 is the only engine that will break a crank at the second main journal, with nothing more than a faulty harmonic balancer, or faulty accessory drive pulley, which is also rubber-isolated.

I think it would be safe to say, FD is more concerned with the imbalances and harmonics that cause that failure, rather than the size of the market.

If they had a viable solution, it would be advertised as such, which would create its own market.

Again, each of those marques have a very stout forged steel crankshaft - we got a nodular cast iron piece, which required rolled fillets to survive even the original 135hp design spec.

Check the size of the rods and throws in the 360cuin Cummins six, for an idea of what is required, then compare those to the 6.5 pieces.

It just begs the question, Why hasn't somebody filled this niche? A forged crank would seem appropriate in any power build.

GMCTD,

I understand what you are saying, but I really do find that hard to believe. FD is in the business of making high performance dampers for all kinds of applications, both racing and street duty. A dampner isn't really all that complex once you get the specifications worked out. And, GM already has a design to address the application, so I would guess the operational parameters are already known. As to why FD can't make a damper using their fluid design that meets or exceeds the OEM specifications, I would guess it is a marketing issue.

Forged crank and a Fluidampr! :drool:

New question time.
How does one correctly install timing gear, cam gear and IP gear to get the correct timing to start with?

You could start a new thread on balancers/dampers you know.:)

gmctd, will know the specifics as he's put one in but I'd think you would just line up the timing marks.

Right, i did the gear drive as pictured above (is that right?). Was wonder what to do to line up the IP gear when i install the new pump. I read somewhere to rotate the crank until the dot on the cam gear is visible up to 12 o'clock (180* from where it was for the install) and line up the pump gear pointing down to it (6 o'clock), i just need some more wits on this one.

Thanks!

Correct - align the cam gear mark to the crank mark, then rotate crank 360deg cw to align cam gear mark - now at 12 o'clock - with the Inj Pump gear mark, which will be at 6 o'clock.

Watch that the idler gears do not 'walk' out of mesh

You'll notice the pump drive gear on the camshaft only connects with a small portion of the key. I loctite the gear on the keyway to prevent breakage at that point. Very weak area in the valve train.

Correct - align the cam gear mark to the crank mark, then rotate crank 360deg cw to align cam gear mark - now at 12 o'clock - with the Inj Pump gear mark, which will be at 6 o'clock.

Watch that the idler gears do not 'walk' out of mesh
Timing covers already on, idler gears better not walk out!:)

More pics. I made a goof on the passengers side head, i took 2 old head bolts and cut the heads off of them to make a couple of line up pins for installing the new heads, i cut the first bolts to short and when i installed the head i had to fight for about 20 min's to work each stud back out once the head was on as the bolt was just below the top of the hole.
I learned from my mistake, these pics show how i cut 2 more old head bolts closer to the head of the bolt and cut a groove in the bolt in case it was to low in the head to retrieve, at least that way i could use a screw driver to back it out once the head was installed. Installing the heads in the truck is a little awkward so i didn't want to be bashing the new gaskets around much, this way once the head was positioned above the deck it wouldn't move out of place and it was a simple drop onto the deck.

I know its a little late now but which side is up on the head gaskets?

Looks good CR can wait to hear the results of the BEAST!!!!

Keep the pics flowing

Good idea - and, remember to pull the rags (another good idea) outta the lifter chambers b4 the head goes on.......

head gaskets were identical (L,R) last time I put on a pair, I just lined up the brass sleeves with the holes for them in the gasket.

head gaskets were identical (L,R) last time I put on a pair, I just lined up the brass sleeves with the holes for them in the gasket.
Ummm, both the set i removed and installed had i believe brass rings on one side, the set i pulled had it facing up so thats how i installed the new ones also, appears to seal the pre-chamber on the head???

Good idea - and, remember to pull the rags (another good idea) outta the lifter chambers b4 the head goes on.......I seriously had the gasket in hand when i noticed i hadn't removed the rags yet!:o:

Ummm, both the set i removed and installed had i believe brass rings on one side, the set i pulled had it facing up so thats how i installed the new ones also, appears to seal the pre-chamber on the head???
I'm talking about the brass insert between the block and head that allows you to set the head on the block without it sliding off. Didn't see these? maybe it's an older engine thing.

You mean the line up pins that stick up about 1/2" from the head right? Yes i have those also, 2 of em on each deck.
I'm saying the head gaskets are different on each side. One side has a brass/steel ring that encompasses both the combustion chamber and the pre-chamber, the oposite side is just gasket material. Just wondered if i put it on right?

I can't remember if I had one or two but the head gasket only fit one way and was obiviously incorrect when turned over it didn't go on those line up pins.

I will have to check my old ones when i get home tonight, i was sure they would fit either way, could be wrong though.

Ok now that i'm down 2 trucks its time to finish this a little sooner than later.
I opened the bag that contained the bolts for the PMD and lookey what i find in the bag, a #9 resistor, cool.

Heres another question, this is the fitting from the water x-over, i would like to change it out for a direct hose install to the heater core, question is that there is a restrictor in the old fitting, will it matter going full flow to the heater core, will it effect engine cooling?

That resistor reminds me that all you have to do is soder the same ohm value as a #9 between the same wires and same end result. I know a #4 is ~3040 ohms, not sure about the rest but an electrical guy should be able to say just from the bands on the one pictured.

CR, I'm freakin' amazed you pulled that magnesium fitting out in one piece. Everyone I've attempted to remove has broken off instantly inside the crossover, but to answer your question, I put in brass fittings, threaded on one side and a 3/4" barb on the other, it works fine on two trucks so far.

Mine came with that setup, only steel not brass, the quick release ones are problematic and I've had to chisel a few of them out too.

That resistor reminds me that all you have to do is soder the same ohm value as a #9 between the same wires and same end result. I know a #4 is ~3040 ohms, not sure about the rest but an electrical guy should be able to say just from the bands on the one pictured.

CR, I'm freakin' amazed you pulled that magnesium fitting out in one piece. Everyone I've attempted to remove has broken off instantly inside the crossover, but to answer your question, I put in brass fittings, threaded on one side and a 3/4" barb on the other, it works fine on two trucks so far.
It came out like nothing. Magnesium? I thought it was brass, i couldn't find a 1/2" x 3/4" brass barb fitting here (we call em king nipples). All i can find to fill the gap with is a galvanized 1/2" pipe fitting, 3/4" heater hose slips on nicely but i don't know that i'll ever be able to take it out once i install it.

Fuel lines to IP question, how do they hook back up correctly? I don't think i can fudge it up but want to be sure before the IP arrives and the lines are burried below the intake again. Here's a pic with the old IP temporary in place, is this correct?

Nice color choice there CR

Scratched em up pretty good putting them in there...

Back to the question...? (just reminding not to forget the question):)

they attach the same as the firing order cast into the manifold :D

Best I can tell your allright.

Um thanks QM, now if they only marked the back of the pump with #1

#1 is 10 oclock looking at the rear. 1 8 7 2 6 5 4 3 IIRC

. 8 . 7
1 . . . 2
3 . . . 6
. 4 . 5

Well something like that....software keeps deleting my spaces.

CR, can you measure the resistance of that #9? Looks like 8k but i'm tired and my vision sucks right now

please don't tell anyone i work with about the previous post. if the colors are gray - red - orange - gold then it's an 82k ohm resitor with a tolerance of +/- 5% so approx. 78k-86k

So, why exactly does a large amount of resistance between the red wire from the fuel solenoid and the pink (IIRC) make the fuel increase slightly? never had that one explained exactly.

#9 Is 81.3K
#4 Is 13.2K That will be a fair difference from my #4, no?

Another question is how high in resistance can you go without setting a code and since resistors (of the type shown in the picture) are almost free, what is the max value resistor we can use? At what point do we stop seeing even small gains?

Another question is how high in resistance can you go without setting a code and since resistors (of the type shown in the picture) are almost free, what is the max value resistor we can use? At what point do we stop seeing even small gains?
I know higher resistance puts more wear on the PMD. You previously could buy a #10, #11, ect but there was some problem associated with resistance over #9, iirc it made the idle jump like when you've bumped it too far.

CR, I could have read it wrong, but I didn't test it's ohms to verify one way or the other.

So, why exactly does a large amount of resistance between the red wire from the fuel solenoid and the pink (IIRC) make the fuel increase slightly? never had that one explained exactly.The resistor is not a part of the FSOL circuit, the PCM will test resistance across the two wires its contacts, the resulting resistance tells the PCM what compensation value to use to get proper fuel delivery as calibrated. 0 is really a -4, 5 is a 0, and 9 is a +4. Thats how many tics on the Hi Res Track the PCM will add or subtract from whatever pulse width the PCM has determined it needs from the pump, which of course varies with load/speed/temp/app etc.

THe problem with 10, 11, 13 whatever else there is, the PCM isn't programmed to know what to do with those resistance values and you get a code for undefined resistor value.

CR, I could have read it wrong, but I didn't test it's ohms to verify one way or the other.
Not sure what you mean here, i tested in both directions i think??? Can do the #4 again, #9 is kinda inaccessable right now, i'll show you what i mean by inaccessable in an hour or so..., i think you guys will like it and want to copy it...

TDG, I'm being told the pump hasn't arrived yet and i'm sure you said it was shipped monday before last? I'm starting to wonder if he's having trouble with the programming now. Either that or you shipped it on a dogsled!

LOL, I don't know how he shipped it, UPS? But even by dogsled, it should have made it to your place by now.

I tried to get him to divulge a little about his programming plans, he just told me he's writing yours to work like a 5068 or HD '94 truck of course with his 'hot' programming. I don't know if it will work, sounds like it should, and I tested the pumps, they are mechanically capable of 93-93.5mm each. I think he would be better off using the same programming you have now, and just let me calibrate the pump with a 5068 cam ring to make it work in your 5521 app. I'm interested to see what he comes up with, hopefully for you CR, it will work like a charm ;)

Well if it isn't in by tomorrow i can't wait any longer now, i will have to put in the old pump and get it up and running for work on monday.

Everything else, as far as you can go obviously, is ready to go on your's CR?

Damn close, can't install the water pump without the gear on the new pump and i don't want to fiddle through that little hole, alternater bracket bolts through the WP, turbo can't go on without the pump to make it easier for lines to be installed without fighting ...etc.... With pump in hand should be done in a day, timing it could be tough without a scanner though.

Pics of inside of the fender well marked with PMD holes. Cut out with dremel. Front air intake with flow director installed. FSD cooler installed with the driver in the air flow so ambient air is always passing the FSD driving or idleing. Funny looking #4 Stock resitor. As you can see there is lots of room for the cooler here and it puts the FSD in the direct flow of the air intake even at idle, there is enough flow from the front of the truck bypassing between the battery and fender well for reasonable flow across the cooler even though its probably not needed with the cooler inside the fender.
And lastly what i'll be driving approx 300 km's/day if i don't get this thing running real soon!

Oop's i added another pic with the battery in place.

Yeah, could be really easy with fresh pump/timing gears, might be a little akward with reflash...hard to say, but a scanner would def help.

No friggen pump yet....... going back together with the old one now.Censored :mad: :mad:

i think that's a cool idea for the fsd location cr

Yeah and it should remain cool even at idle there.

Here's some old numbers on my timing a while back
Desired 12.1
Actual 12.2
TDC Offset 0.97
Closure time 1.9 ms
According to this where should i put the old pump at when it goes back in, i marked it when i took it out just in case this happened, right now i have it about 1mm to the passenger side from where it was, remember i changed out a sloppy timing chain for gears also. I'm ready to bolt down the intake if no one suggests a different timing setting.

I wish I had and answer for you, I watched the pumps being boxed and a delivery guy picked them up almost 2 weeks ago???

I think i'm being fed a line of BS.
Any suggestions for the pump alignment?

Oops, must have been posting at the same time....
+0.97 Is a little slow isn't it? I would advance it a touch to get atleast on the neg side. And you know I don't like seen CTIME in the 1.9 range, but the only way to fix that is with the new pump ;)

BS by who? Me or Lyndon?
I've got the calibration tapes saved on the computer, they're dated and its the only pair of 5068s I've done in a long while.

Oh ya one more thing, what do i jump and where to keep the lift pump on while i'm priming this thing. I know its in the fuse box under the hood, just need to know which one, FSOL i think and what pins to jump for constant power to the LP.

It's still under the hood after shutdown. :grd:

Take out the LP relay and jump bottom left to top right pins.
- x
x - -

In the fuse box in the engine compartment, the lid should tell you which relay runs the supply pump, you want to just the pins on opposite corners (X).

- - X
X . -

LOL, this thread is getting confusing, we need real-time! ;)

BS by who? Me or Lyndon?
Westers not you.
It's still under the hood after shutdown
Correct, but its sheilded by the fender, i will be checking its temp after shutdown.

Tell you what I'll do, if Lyndon doesn't have the new ECM figured out and in your hands Monday, I can call him and if he's having more than anticipated complications, I'll tell him to ship the pumps back and I"ll recal them to work with the flash yours has on it now, how's that?

I will wait until he's got it right but i won't be putting the pump in for awhile now. If he can't get it to pound out 92mm+ then i'll be looking for one that can. I Need the truck for work on Monday.
When you said advance a tad, so thats 1mm to passenger side right?

I've also ordered a MT-2500 used, should be here next thursday.

Wow there are days I would kill for a live version of this place http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif. Kind of like a DP yahoo chat room or something.

If he can't get it to pound out 92mm+ then i'll be looking for one that can.
When you said advance a tad, so thats 1mm to passenger side right?
I'm interested to see what he comes up with too...we'l just wait and see then.

The pump rotates CC looking at the drive end, so you want to go drivers side to advance.

By the way, I'm not 100% sure on this yet, but I think if I recalibrated that pump to work with your 83mm ECM, we could be talking about 96+mm!

The pump rotates CC looking at the drive end, so you want to go drivers side to advance.
Oop's, i went about 1mm to the passenger side.

Got her reset now?
videos soon to come I imagine ;)

1mm to drivers side now, no videos, just pics when im done and if it don't start don't expect anything...lol!
I don't expect it to run today, maybe tomorrow, still alot to do yet. I've got 1 wire so far that i have no idea where it goes, if i don't figure it out as i go here i'll post it later tonight for some thoughts.

Did you figure out how to jump the supply pump?

Lift pump was jumped and filled both fuel filters, 2 injection injection lines were cracked loose, 20 seconds of cranking and it was spitting fuel out the injector lines and it was trying to run. Left to key in the on so as not to have to glows powered up, tightened the injector lines, cranked it for 10 seconds, cycled the glows once and it fired right up, smooth baby...

Heres a few more pics. If i hadn't been paying attention i may very well have cracked the intake manifold. These pics show how the intake had been sitting on the valve covers, i ended up trimming the intake runners on all four corners to be able to slip it below the valve covers as pictured before torquing it down. All the intake bolts were also at the bottom edge of the holes on both sides making me think these heads have had a few thousands taken off when i got them. Even the turbo brace had to be machined out a bit to get it bolted up again. Maybe i'm a little higher on compression ratio now. The balancer was packed with dirt and that pic shows what i scraped out with a screwdriver.
Also a pic of the IP about 1mm to the drivers side from its stock postion. Truck seems to be running good, only went for a short snort with boost at maximum of 10 PSI, and black smoke on take-off, yup there's alot more than before. I'm glad i relocated the pyro too cause it is WAY more responsive, moves quicker and WAY more accurate, even without my foot in it hard i was hitting 1100 F in under 5 seconds.

Ahh the sweet smell of sucessful wrenching, smells like diesel burning:D

What were specific conditions resulting in 1100deg EGT in that short time period?

Specifics, let me see, engine at operating temps, road was flat, ambient temps about 0C - 32F. Boost no higher that 10 psi. Would hit 1100 from a standing start using only about 3/4 throttle and when already moving at about 30-40 mph and hitting 3/4 throttle same results, had to back down. What the heck were max pre-turbo EGT's again, 1400 F?
I don't think total cranking time went past 30 seconds before it fired up on me, i was very surprised it started that easily.

One more note i keep forgetting to mention. While i was cleaning up the intake for the new gaskets i noticed that #4 runner was very oily from top to bottom, it was the only part of the intake to be oily, the rest was clean as a whistle.
Still have to do the peddle to floor, key on thingy yet as it hasn't been done since putting it back together.

Sweet pics CR, I Like this valve covers, I painted mine black which was pretty pointless...
You don't want to go above 1200F.
I'm concerned about what you noticed on the heads. I hope they didn't raise the compression on you, they didn't advise you to use +.010" Head Gaskets I guess?
If your Pyro is showing those kinds of temps with your stock pump and reflashed ECM... are you concerned the new pump might break something?

I would have painted alot more but as you know it had to get back together in a hurry. I'm sure it'll hit 1200F and then some no problem in under 10 seconds, will know more later today as i go for a 200 km run for antifreeze and another oil change. They never said anything about shaving the heads but it appears to me that they were shaved, just don't know how much. The intake was a PITA, the brace for the turbo needed some grinding to get it installed, everything indicates the heads are sitting lower on the deck.
If i install that new pump, yes there may be parts flying with higher compression, i'm scared to turn up the boost back up to 18 again now.

Yeah, lets see how she does after you drive it for a little while...

Congrats CR! I hope it all wears in well and you get lots of life out of her!

Still concerned about the 1100deg no load EGT,,,,,,,,,

My truck weighs 8500lbs dry, I leave it in o\d continuously = 2.99 final drive equiv, 31" 2.35-16 dual rear wheels - I seldom see even near 1000deg pre- and 800deg post-turbo, both gages Isspro, and that's pulling a loaded 18' trailer up a long hill, 10-15psi Boost @ ~2400rpm @ 65-70mph, up to 83mm fuel.

Course, I do have a charge-air cooler keeping IAT @ ~100deg, but with 3.5" exhaust - still, I've never seen over 1000deg\pre, loaded.

I'm thinkin' - wha'sup wi' dat, eh?

Yeah, that is pretty stinking hot alright....
Maybe the H.O. pump ECM should be detuned a little for safety reasons, or used only with 18:1 CR.

Just tried it again, easy to hit 1000F in about 5 secs either from a standing stop or already moving and punching it? Getting a fair amount of black smoke. I'm going to head out for 200 km's and get the oil changed back to full synthetic again. Before i started it i drained the existing oil and added in 6 ltrs of regular HD 15-40, so after about 150 km's it will be back to full syn with a new filter just to make sure its clean in there. Funny on refire i had no codes or nothing. My low coolant light is on for some reason though and its full, i think all the air is out through the bleeder but the damn light won't go off.
TDG do you think the pump might be advanced to far or not far enough? What would cause the extra heat and black smoke, retarded or advanced?

Retarded timing will cause abnormally high egt's. Try to advance it. Also, tell tale sign of retarded timing is very quiet engine.:eek: :grd:

Its not too quiet, lotsa clatter, but is reflashed too?

TDG do you think the pump might be advanced to far or not far enough? What would cause the extra heat and black smoke, retarded or advanced?
Were still talking about an electronic pump here, PCM has the final say on what actual advances the pump runs, moving the pump just sets the TDC Offset so the pump can do what its told.

Excess fuel, as in blaci smoke, is high EGT fodder - don't accelerate so hard, get it out on the hiway, see what steady-speed cruising does.............

It's a good thing you have a mt-2500 coming. You can put the timing right on the money and check the egt's again.

Been on the hiway put on 250 kms today. Fresh 0-40 syn, coolant changed out, temperature gauge appears to run normal as before.
Cruising 70+ MPH - EGT's 550-600F, Floor it and we have 1200F in about 3-4 seconds.
Standing start EGT's about 400F - on the floor 5 seconds tops and its at 1000F, by the time i hit 60 MPH (13 seconds still) its at 1200 and wanting to go further but alot slower in the climbing, ECM on my shoulders kicks in and i back out of it.
Max boost at any time of 14 PSI.
Rattles pretty loud cruising on the hiway unloaded. No black smoke just cruising but a hell of a puff when i step on it and then a continuous light trail until i let off.
How much blow should there be coming from the CDR at idle? I think i have too much!!! Its the same as before the work was done...:(

You have more fuel than O2, thus the hi EGT.

Don't crank it on too often, till you get charge-air cooling, and even then you will still need to limit the action - much over 16psi is unsafe on 22:1cr.

18:1cr pistons can take 20psi or so for exhibition runs - some have run up to 26psi - but you would not want to work or tow (sustained) with that level of Boost.

You got more fuel than you can safely Boost for - gonna take a little self-discipline.

Well - better make that a lot of..................

I would give it a couple more pounds of boost and see what it does. I bet the EGTs would drop a lot.

I make the comment on timing affecting egt's based on the last 6.2 job I did. (I know it is a mechanical pump and your's is electronic) but I want to make a point. The customer that I installed this engine for bought the engine from Avant. It was a custom built drop in 6.2, complete with rebuilt injection pump and gear drive timing set. Well, after I had it all buttoned up and running, and after I had to replace the flex plate that They didn't tighten the bolts on(3 miles and bolts fell out-:t )Banks Stinger kit installed, fuel bumped up, this thing was a dog. It was also very quiet, too quiet. EGT's would hit 1300 on level ground with an empty truck. I suspected timing, I advanced the pump as far as it would go and I still wasn't happy. I turned the fuel back down, now it was really a dog. I told my customer that I felt there was something wrong with the injection pump internally. Since I didn't have a timing meter I sent him to my friends diesel repair shop. The timing was 6 degrees retarded with the pump set at max advance! He suspected the timing gears, we pulled the gears and replaced them with a stock chain. No difference. My friend finally agreed that the pump must be out of calibration. Avant sent another pump and the truck ran great, with max egt of 650 at WOT on the same flat ground that had produced 1300 before. I don't know what was wrong inside of the other pump, but it wasn't right.

Now to your situation, maybe it is just a lot of fuel, or maybe your timing needs a little advance. Just something to check out. You also might want to try a little more boost. Something else to consider is how much backpressure you have in front of the turbo. You could take out your pyro probe and rig in a temporary pressure gauge(use metal line) and run it at WOT and see how much back pressure you have. With a free flowing exhaust, the turbo housing becomes the choke point.:exactly:

As far as a lot of fuel goes, my cummins with the box set on 9, which adds 160 hp and a lotttttttt of fuel, will bury my pyro at 1800 degrees in about 15 seconds:eek: with 36 psi of boost, and a big intercooler, but at the end of 15 seconds the speed is lets just say, way to fast for the street and I really don't want to get caught on radar at that magic number.):h ):h I need a bigger turbo to handle this much fuel.

I'm tapped for EBP oposite the pyro, just need a guage/fittings to take the heat.
I went to Canadian Tire yesterday to get the timing numbers, neither the MT2500 or the Genisys unit would work with my 00. Whats up with that? I don't want to buy an old used MT2500 that won't work with this truck?

TD had to buy a "diesel" cartridge for his mt-2500 iirc.

I thought the cartridge was diesel & gas, just a different cartridge for asian and such, he thought his scanner did diesel but everytime it asked for the 13th vin i think the option wasn't there for my vin.

I did a few comparisons for TD with the Tech II and Snap-on Scanner.

TDC Offset numbers were very different from each other on same truck...

Did you look at AutoEnginuity software? It is supposed to be the closest thing to a Tech2 you can get according to some guys on TDP.

Did you look at AutoEnginuity software? It is supposed to be the closest thing to a Tech2 you can get according to some guys on TDP.Never heard of it. Is it something you can run on a laptop? Whats the pricing?

I'm not sure here but if i had to make a bet i think there's a set of rings going south on me or one of those previously pictured pistons were actually the start of a crack.

With the amount of blow coming from the CDR what else could possibly be the culprit?

She's definately getting LOTS of fuel, alot more than before as the black smoke wasn't there before i did the heads, now it almost pours out like a bad WG selonoid, must be the combo IP 1mm advance, #9 resistor and phazer gears to be getting more fuel. On second thought the only thing that should have increased fuel delivery would have been the #9 resistor, the other changes would just change when it gets burned?? Ok now i'm starting to confuse myself...:confused:

http://www.AutoEnginuity.com/
They seem to sell it on ebay a little cheaper. http://search.ebay.com/AutoEnginuity_W0QQsojsZ1QQfromZR40
You need to buy the GM enhanced interface which I think it $149 extra.

I went to Canadian Tire yesterday to get the timing numbers, neither the MT2500 or the Genisys unit would work with my 00. Whats up with that? I don't want to buy an old used MT2500 that won't work with this truck?
MT2500 will work on your '00, they just need to change the cartridge. One is for 96 and earlier, one is for 96 and up and there is a new one that just came out too, Crappy Tire probably doesn't have it yet.

Well i'm sure the MT2500 i have coming is probably a fair bit older.
Will it still work with the correct cartridge and if so how much are cartridges going to cost or can you even still get them? I've been hearing $1500 for a new cartridge and that simply won't go with me. I can spend $20 per time i go for some data alot of times to cover that.
If someone here has a better deal on one i'd be very interested!

go on ebay there is tons of cartridges for sale i bought one good upto 99 for $75

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4545886218&category=43989
here is one that will do for your truck

Is your optic sensor back to 'stock' now CR?
If you want to make minor adjustments to your timing, you can do it via the Optic, more fuel = more advance and the opposite.

IIRC the optic is just the width of the line bumped.

I have a bad feeling that this engine will blow sometime next week while i'm going to work.

do a compression test on it find out where the blow by is comming from

IIRC the optic is just the width of the line bumped.
Maybe you should put it back, just to be on the safe side, see what it does to your EGTs. I don't know what all Wester's flash changes, but if they advance your timing, the combination may be too much. You got more fuel than you can burn anyway without the bump.
Let's try not to blow it up, as cool of an excuse as that would be to put in 18:1s ;)

I'd do a comp test but have to drive it now for work, i seriously don't think its going to hold together long thats why i parked it in the first place, i thought i could cure it with rebuilt heads, phazer gears, etc...
I'm away from home now and thought after i left i should have brought the #4 resitor with me to see if it changed but didn't....DOH!

turn the boost controller all the way in, bump the optic back 1mm and step less into the pedal, ~50-60%.

Thinking about pulling the pan depending on comp test results which won't happen for a few days yet, can the pistons be changed out from the bottom in the truck?
Will be a good time to do 18:1's if thats the case.

No way unless they are in small pieces. The block webbing for the main journals are in the way.

:mad: ....Censored

Thinking about pulling the pan depending on comp test results which won't happen for a few days yet, can the pistons be changed out from the bottom in the truck?.
The pistons can easily be pulled from the bottom of the truck if you flip the motor over first. Be sure and remove the piston return springs first. I had one fall out and hit the concrete and the thing bouced up and knocked my muffler bearings out. Didn't find out till I fired it up. Some of the bearings musta have got caught in the wastegate, cus everytime I shower down on it now the wastegate slips for a second before it catches. I don't think they will last long before they burn up since they were the teflon bearings.
If you order the 18 to 1 pistons be sure and use the longer springs that go in marine engines they are stainless and won't rust, but more important they are longer for the lower deck height. They won't work with stock pistons as they will coil bind unless you relieve the piston pocket recess. Some people use rotators on the springs but I find them useless on low RPM diesels.

Informative as always DP...

It was starting to sound interesting until i got 1/2 through the first sentence.

On a side note, EGT's are running steady @ 650F @ 75 MPH (7 MPH over the speed limit) on flat ground.

That sounds normal. That's about what I run empty on flat ground going 75-80 mph ~5 psi-8 psi, 2600-2800 rpm. Hauling *** ,iirc thats about 45-55mm3 for me to maintain that speed.

It's when you push fuel delivery up tp 83mm3 that the problems start.

75 MPH = 2400 rpm for me, looks to be the stock alternator too. We're running the same gears. What i really need is one of those temp guns to point at the cylinders and see who is running a little cool, might help find the low cylinder if there is one.

QM if you were following me and i stepped on it you'd be flagging me down with a WG selonoid i hand, i'm only running 10 PSI right now, maybe crank it up to 18 tonight.

You have me pegged.

Turn the boost up and see what EGT's run. If High EGT's are mostly due to unburnt fuel I'd think it would help to add O2, the caveat is it's time to put on some form of intake air cooling since 18:1 requires getting back in the engine.

I am not sure if this will work with late style glow plugs but it did work with 9g's. With engine running, check resistance accros each glow plug from spade to ground. The more resistance the hotter that cylinder is firing. Give it a try.:cool2:

My exhaust bearings seem to be aluminum-bronze, or some such - they are, however, full-floating........

cool trick camilleri

About the laser temperture gun, you probably won't be able to find which cylinders are running cooler. I tried this on my 6.2 recently, you'll find it's hard to duplicate the exact same reading while the engine is running from cylinder to cylinder. I ran accross all 8 three times with the engine at idle for about 15 min, I got different readings each time. I really wasn't able to find anything out of the ordinary, at the most a difference of 5 degrees between some. This tool is usefull in determining a miss, there you will find a large temperature difference.

Just drive er easy.

You should be able to get fairly accurate readings on your 6.2 with a infared gun.
The problem with the 6.5 is that the back two on the pass side also pass the exhaust from all 4 on the driver's side.

I've read that GP resistance trick in my GM 6.5 manual, I think I suggested it to CR before too...

Haven't tried it. PITA to get at them when its hot, might try later.

I turned the boost up as far as i could go. Only making 13 or 14 PSI, i could spike 20 before, either the spring has stretched with heat or its going past a piston.

CR, Is the engine running smooth? If so then I highly doubt that there is a severe leak past the rings. How much blow by are you getting? Does it seem to Puff or is it a constant mist?:confused:

Very, very strong blow from the CDR with the tube off the turbo with a slight mist of oil weather its cold or hot, will build in a second or two and i'll have to take my finger off to let the pressure go so i don't blow any seals. Engine runs pretty smooth but there is what sounds like a weak miss out the exhaust thats steady. Every once in awhile it will give a short surge while idling like a fouled plug. All the hi-pops tested good when checked at DSG while picking up parts.

Steady stream could be from worn rings. How did the cylinder walls look while you had the heads off? Could you see the honing marks? Were there very many scratches? Compression test would probably tell the story.:rolleyes:

The first time I overhauled my engine was because the back cylinders on the turbo side were wore out. The blowby on it was pretty bad, it got to where it was blowing oil out of the dipstick and wasn't letting oil return from the turbo. Eventually it quit firing on two cylinders and ruined the turbo by forcing oil past the seals and ruining the bearings since all the oil ran out the exhaust and intake. I had a drop in boost as well toward the end. By looking at the cylinder walls I couldn't tell any difference from the others, but when I felt them there were humps and dips in the wall. I have a friend that had the same thing happen to the motor in his pickup. If you think that is the case I would recommend that you park it ASAP before it causes other damage. Just my .02...

There was hardly a scratch on any of the cylinder walls. Here is a pic of #8. I lightened it up a bit. X-hatching was this visible in all the cylinders, that is why i'm baffled. I'm really starting to think that the previous pics of the pistons were actually cracks completely through that were just starting and thats where the compression is going, i doubt its rings or i'd be blowing blue out the pipe and using oil at an increased rate, no?

Wow, and #7 and #8 are usually first to go on these engines, I think you can rule out a problem with the bottom end of yours....what could it be then...

If the heads were shaved down enough to make the intake not fit, could the compression be so high it is causing the blowby? ANd with the high compression you can't get as much air which might explain the smoke.

Whatnot
I don't think so, the same blowby was there before doing the heads. I think i'm an idiot now for thinking it was a combination of head gaskets and leaky valves, all of which were true as the pics showed the valves on #4 had a buildup of carbon, #4 intake runner was also black with oil the rest were clean, #8 piston showed what appeared to be coolant buildup and i think it was #1 that ring on the head gasket was pooched so the gaskets did appear to be leaking some anyways. But the bad thing here is it will all have to be done again now and i'll have to pull the engine to fix whatever the hell is wrong!!!

Bullet proof Hummer block is looking pretty sweet right now.

Changed back to #4 resitor. No diff.

This truck has the loudest diesel rattle i have ever heard, even at hiway speeds, i'd say even louder than the big rigs.

As a last resort to free up sticky/stuck rings does anyone have a recomendation for an additive to clean it out that actually works?

There is still the possibility that with the high egt's you were running, you could have taken some of the spring out of the rings and hence, they aren't sealing well. Get your compression gauge and get us some numbers. If you only have one or two low cylinders, then it could be a cracked piston, however from all of the cracked pistons I have seen, yours don't look cracked. I am guessing that you will find low compression in at least several holes and probably #7 and 8, since they tend to run the hottest. You can probably run it this way for a long time without worry, you will just have to add the oil that it is burning. With cylinders that look that good, a light hone and a re-ring would suit your engine well, when you have the time. If you are so inclined, you could also add a set of 18:1 pistons. As far as blow by goes, I had to band -aid a 6.2 for my daughter's blazer, it had weak compression and lots of blow by. I tore it down and re-ringed it, but it should have been bored, due to the taper, but she was on a budget. So, it got a heavy hone, new rings, bearings and timing set, along with a set of cracked between the valve 6.5 heads(that don't leak) and it has been running great for over 3 years. Yes it still has blow by and the oil is very dirty after 3,000 miles, but it starts and runs and has very good power. Starting it when it is cold out, below 30 F needs a little help with either long glows or the block heater, but it usually starts as long as the fuel flows through the filter. Bottom line is run your engine and don't worry about it alot. It will be fine. Just try to keep from any sustained egt's over 1200. There is also a remote possibility that your upper compression rings could be sticking due to carbon/oil, in which case you could try adding some marvel mystery oil to your crankcase and see if any thing changes. I have know people who have had good unexplained benefits from marverl:rolleyes: :grd: Good luck P.S., you might also want to try checking your blow-by right after a hard run with the engine up to temp with the pistons fully expanded. Also, are you consuming any oil and how much?

The truck would use 1 -2 ltrs of oil in 5000 km's which would include up to 8 hrs/day idling time in the winter, 4 or 5 hours/day in the summer. It appears about the same so far, maybe even using less now.
Mystery oil you say? How much in a 7 liter crank case?

I am trying to get some HP out of this thing, so if that doesn't do it then it will be a rebuild with 18:1's. Most likely the Hummer block from DSG.

I've even considered running the CC full of diesel for 15 - 30 seconds to try and clean it out. But of course not until the compression test is done.

I'm Knocking on wood at the moment. But everyone keeps talking about their engine burning oil. I do change my oil at only 2500 miles but during that time when I check the oil I don't even notice any oil being lost. The dip stick always looks the same. Just sounds like the above numbers is a lot.

5000 km's is 3100 miles. 1-2 ltrs isn't bad with all the idling, all of my diesels burnt more than this one.

Did you try putting the optic back to stock? might help tone down the detonation clatter.

No i haven't had the time for that yet, just did the resistor as it was pretty simple to do now. The clatter doesn't bother me to much but it is damn loud. Whats bothering me is the little teeny miss, no pump or flash from Westers, not even a phone call and above all, i have to take this damn thing apart again....

I will not vent my frustrations...I will not vent my frustrations...I will not vent my frustrations...
OK i'm better now...:D

5000 km's is 3100 miles. 1-2 ltrs isn't bad with all the idling, all of my diesels burnt more than this one.
My old 6.2 (100Kmiles) and my 99 6.5 (70K miles) both burn 0 oil in 3000 miles. But I think up to 1 quart per 3000 miles is probably acceptable/normal.

Super loud diesel clatter is almost as bad as to quiet. It means that your timing is too far advanced. Too much timing can cause bad things, blown head gaskets and cracked pistons are just two of them. Retard your timing a little and see what that does. Too far advanced timing creates ultra high cylinder pressures:eek: and will also cause a loss of hp. You need to tweak it to get it just right.:rolleyes:

As far as oil consuption goes, a lot of idling tends to increase oil use, and these engines don't like to be idled for long periods of time. Combustion temps are low and carbon soot build up goes up dramatically. I have seen a few engines that tend to use oil when driven on short trips or idled a lot, but when driven at speed where everything tends to be fully expanded, they hardly use a drop. Oil consumption seems to go hand in hand with blow-by.

As for the Marvel mystery oil, read the container, but I think that about a quart added to your crank case would be about right. I would also give a dose to your fuel, as I have had good luck with it lubing/cleaning the injection system. are
How about some compression #'s?:grd:

Just to try and set your mind at ease a little I inspected an old 6.5 piston and if I get bored today maybe I will cut it in half and take some pictures. My point is that the area where the notch is in the piston top is also the thickest part of the piston. The under side of the piston is thinnest in the center and gets thicker as it gets closer to the outside. Cracks usually find there way to the thinnest part, the center. To bad my remaining cracked pistons have already been turned into beer cans:rolleyes: or I would show some pictures.

I had posted a pic of how much i moved the timing to the drivers side, about 1mm. Maybe i will put it back to the original position or should i move it even further. Will the phazer gears have given me more advance or retard from the worn chain?

I would love to get some compression numbers. I'd have to purchase a tester and they're IIRC $200 and more, i was hoping to make a fitting and guage myself but haven't been able to find the correct 1.0 metric thread that i can adapt back to npt, anyone have any ideas on this? I've drilled out an old glow plug and was going to tap the inside but no one around here has any such thing as a 1/8 npt or any size for that matter to screw into the inside of it.

Thanks for the piston info, makes me feel a little better that the pisons may not be cracked then.

I'm ready to bump the pump now, any last minute suggestions?

You need a friend with a lathe. Could chuck one out pretty quick. Suggest using a bolt of the correct size and hollow drill it and braze on the desired adapter. Could also make one out of an old injector. Gut it out, grind a bigger nozzle hole, braze the return lies closed and braze on the correct adapter.

I would do a leak-down test. Put air on the cylinder and see where it's going.

The gear timing set up is supposed to have extra timing advance built in. Don't try to advance or retard the engine while it's running.

Hmmmm... I'll go out and retard it 2mm, see what happens when i fire it up right after. Should be ok to run in pieces for a couple min's anyways.

Severe knock? I don't think i've described it as that. Anyways i have moved the pump to the passengers side by about 3mm now, still seems to run the same. I will put it back together, let it warm up and do the relearn, i do seem to have excessive soot out the tail pipe?
Well at least it runs... next i'll have to check the gap in the plugs and points....