From: PickupTrucks.com

GM Committed to 2010 Light-Duty Diesel Even If Buyers Aren't

GM is the last truck maker to remain committed to offering a light-duty diesel engine by 2010, even though GM's vice chairman of global product development Bob Lutz says half-ton buyers are unlikely to opt for the oil burner in the current environment.

"The whole light-duty diesel thing is fraught with problems," Lutz told PickupTrucks.com at the 2009 Detroit auto show. "To meet Tier 2 Bin 5 (50-state federal emissions regulations), the engines are getting more and more expensive. We've already hit the pain threshold with the regular (6.6-liter) Duramax diesel where the customer is saying wait a minute, an $11,000 premium for a diesel engine. I'll buy the gas."

Lutz wouldn't say if the 2010 calendar year still remained a viable date to introduce GM's new 4.5-liter Duramax V-8. However, GM powertrain spokeswoman Susan Garavaglia told PickupTrucks.com that GM is still planning to roll out the engine in its Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra half-ton pickups next year.

GM says the clean diesel is expected to be rated in excess of 310 horsepower and 520 pounds-feet of torque. Fuel efficiency is said to be improved by 25 percent, CO2 emissions cut by 13 percent, and particulate and NOx emissions cut by at least 90 percent.

But even with improved fuel economy, Lutz said, "you save 25 percent fuel use but you'll pay 25 percent more per gallon. And you pay a premium upfront for the engines. Where's the advantage?"

Other vehicle manufacturers have shelved or killed plans for light-duty diesels in cars and trucks. Chrysler has said its Cummins-source Ram won't be available until 2011 at the earliest. Ford and Toyota have both shelved their diesels indefinitely.

"Everybody's coming to the same conclusion. Explain how this makes sense to the customer," Lutz said.

We can thank the tree hugging liberals in the us government for this:mad:

If the 2010 6.6L DMax is going to cost $11K then our trucks will be worth more. The entire thing is stupid. If we built some trains in this country and shipped as much as possible with them then they wouldn't have had to add all these emmision standards to the trucks. Now our President says lets invest in roads! No dummy invest in RAILROADS!!!!

man o' man.... what a pickle

The folks down south should wonder why they pay more for diesel than gas. Up north its cheaper than regular gas, mostly because its the most inexpensive portion of a barrel of oil to refine. I realize its probably demand driven, but you guys are getting hosed.

your paying for a bunch of taxes on diesel, plus demand, plus it probably cost more to make it ultra low sulfur... which also sucks.

The folks down south should wonder why they pay more for diesel than gas. Up north its cheaper than regular gas, mostly because its the most inexpensive portion of a barrel of oil to refine. I realize its probably demand driven, but you guys are getting hosed.

What part of Canada do you live in that diesel is cheaper than gas? Diesel's been more expensive than gas in Alberta for years.

Moved to 4.5 engines...

What part of Canada do you live in that diesel is cheaper than gas? Diesel's been more expensive than gas in Alberta for years.

No it hasnt.. It was more expensive for a year because of a fire at the shell scotford refinery, the price has improved since. I live in Calgary and pay 5-10 cents less than regular at the flying J.

No it hasnt.. It was more expensive for a year because of a fire at the shell scotford refinery, the price has improved since. I live in Calgary and pay 5-10 cents less than regular at the flying J.

Well I live in the Hat and work anywhere from GP to Fort Nelson. I make that drive atleast once a month.....Its been years since Ive seen Diesel cheaper than gas.

We can thank the tree hugging liberals in the us government for this:mad:

I agree! When is open season for these people?

I agree! When is open season for these people?


Originally Posted by KEVINL http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3093237#post3093237)
We can thank the tree hugging liberals in the us government for this


:exactly: and it seems as there are more and more of them appearing. :mad:

The EPA and CARB are not helping matters either, it seems like they want to kill the diesel. Diesel engines are getting pushed back by the little 3, I'm not sure what's going to be available in 2010MY. Esp. if diesel fuel prices decide to skyrocket again. Right now there is limited resources for R & D, to meet the stringent emission level for 2010MY is going to require some bucks, and also, remember Bob Lutz has a lot of pull at GM. It's a day by day thing right now, maybe when the credit mess (which seems to be getting worse) is over, then consumer confidence goes up, maybe they will start buying new cars and trucks again, hopefully from the little 3, so they can get big again. ;)

Me, my 10 year old caddy is doing just fine, I would love a new one, but I can't, right now because I'm in the auto industry, and I don't know if I have a job from day to day. :(

But even with improved fuel economy, Lutz said, "you save 25 percent fuel use but you'll pay 25 percent more per gallon. And you pay a premium upfront for the engines. Where's the advantage?"

Guess he's never driven a tuned diesel...:rolleyes:

Lutz is right, but GM needs to give the 4.5 a try. They already have it developed and had to pay for the r&d. Thats why they can't stop it now, they are further along than ford and dodge in development, so that allowed ford and dodge to back out. What needs to happen is GM needs to be smart with how they market it and what they put it in. It definetly needs to be in subs and tahoes, also in 2500 so people can choose either the 6.6 or 4.5 depending on there demands. People are looking for options right now, and who knows where the market is going towards fuels. If GM can stay flexible in there trucks and suvs offering people options, the better off they will be when the market does turn around. Also if GM wants to try to save Hummers rep, put the 4.5 in all Hummers, making them more fuel efficient, better for enviroment, and better offroad with more torque!

your paying for a bunch of taxes on diesel, plus demand, plus it probably cost more to make it ultra low sulfur... which also sucks.

The main reason diesel prices have spiked upwards is the fact that our ULSD now meets European standards and US refinerys have started to export it, creating a shortage here.

I agree! When is open season for these people?
The best revenge is keeping our older, soot-producing, IP-turned-up diesel engines running as long as we can. Rebuild it when it wears out, and keep it going as long as possible. When you don't buy a new vehicle, you aren't putting money into the hands of the union leaders - which in turn hand money over to the Democrats election campaigns, which suck up to their liberal constitutes by enacting those laws that make the diesels more expensive... You aren't contributing the tax revenue to the government that is working against you...

Something is going to have to give sooner or later.

No it hasnt.. It was more expensive for a year because of a fire at the shell scotford refinery, the price has improved since. I live in Calgary and pay 5-10 cents less than regular at the flying J.
rarely, yesterday it was 84.9 .......same as reg at the J . everywhere else diesel is more. ;)

There you go again blaming the left wing for the EPA, and a republican trait of rewriting history. Read up on it and you will find it was Ronald Reagan. On the price of diesel I was in Aldergrove last week and regular gas and diesel were the same price, hear in Rock Creek, their is about a 15 cent premium on diesel. It was $.95 a liter last time I looked and gas was around $.80

Also if GM wants to try to save Hummers rep, put the 4.5 in all Hummers, making them more fuel efficient, better for enviroment, and better offroad with more torque!

The Hummer H3 and eventually the next gen Colorado are getting a 4cid diesel turbo by VM Motri. Unless, things take another turn for the worse.

The main reason diesel prices have spiked upwards is the fact that our ULSD now meets European standards and US refinerys have started to export it, creating a shortage here.

Yep, as well as oil speculators. They say almost 30 barrels of oil are speculated on for every 1 actual barrel of oil. The addition of recent oil exchange traded funds make anyone an oil speculator. Heck, I'm guilty of it myself.

The Hummer H3 and eventually the next gen Colorado are getting a 4cid diesel turbo by VM Motri. Unless, things take another turn for the worse.

I doubt GM thows any money at the Hummer line.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gITgan4dX96UUzlSldFuJNEqBCfAD95V4C380

Does this help or hurt the 4.5L? Certainly helps the mileage. Seems like for the 1500 a 3.0 diesel would make sense too.... Can't argue with Lutz's logic.

I doubt GM thows any money at the Hummer line.
OK, you may be right. From what I know it's still going forward. But, you might know something I don't. You won't get an argument from me.
I can also tell you the VM Motori 6 cly diesel is going in the 2009 CTS too. But it won't be sold in the states, it won't meet emissions. Regards

The way I see this: I think he's frustrated because they're so into the 4.5 already. A crystal ball would have helped, now it's a gamble...not what ANYONE wants to see automakers doing now. If Lutz doesn't publicly oppose this project (knowing full well they're in too deep to back out) he'll have a lot more back peddling to do.

Rather than stop now and throw r&d money spent away, and look stupid, he can let it fly BUT oppose it. If it's a flop, he doesn't look "so" stupid, and if it's a winner...NO blame game at all. Make sense?

The way I see this: I think he's frustrated because they're so into the 4.5 already. A crystal ball would have helped, now it's a gamble...not what ANYONE wants to see automakers doing now. If Lutz doesn't publicly oppose this project (knowing full well they're in too deep to back out) he'll have a lot more back peddling to do.

Rather than stop now and throw r&d money spent away, and look stupid, he can let it fly BUT oppose it. If it's a flop, he doesn't look "so" stupid, and if it's a winner...NO blame game at all. Make sense?

You couldn't be more right if you wanted to be, politics sucks!

Should be even more interesting now that the messiah has allowed states to make there own emission standards. Diesel's will probably be banned in 13 states

with his allowing states to make laws demanding cleaner, more mpg, gas cars will get more $$$. they had some self-professed know nothing, claimed car mfgr's had ability to get cleaner/mpg's, just didn't tell reporter that will add $2-3,000 to a $10,000 car. like that might be important to consumers. Lutz also talked to reporters last month about global warming farse. hopefully they put it to market and install cross product line. don't see the VMMotori engine meeting bin5 without large $ and R&D, emissions testing.

The railroad system is in place and the government needs to look at utilizing its full potential. Our highways are being destroyed by big trucks which is a cycle that is hard for a politican to look in any other direction because there is big money in road work. Sad part is where I live there is a railroad track threw every small town or city. But the railroad hubs only hit major cities for delivery. Surely with todays technology products could be destributed more locally at a cheaper price with the railroad. Maybe there is business oppurtunity there not yet explored. Wal-mart, Lowes, Home Depot, Kroger, a small town supporting these anchor stores you would think could justify a small train hub and delivery system.

Anybody know what Trans is going behind this diesel?

Anybody know what Trans is going behind this diesel?6L90
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2009/Photo%20Library/Transmissions/2009%20Automatics/09%206L80%20MYC%20BFL%20LoR2_n.jpg
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2009/Photo%20Library/Transmissions/2009%20Automatics/09%206L80%20MYC%20BFL%20LoR2_n.jpg
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2009/Stories/Transmissions/2009%20Auto%20Transmission/09_6L90_MYD_n.doc

The EnviroNazis are screaming the REAL emissions problem is CO2 (GlobalWarming), yet the diesel is part of the solution instead of the problem.

You'd think they would assist the diesel market instead of hampering it, but they never could get their acts together. Emissions controls on weedwackers are more important than Global Warming if you squint your eyes just right after a few martinis.

the global warming thing is really screwing the auto industry hard enough, now obama wants to make it worse?!

Sad part is where I live there is a railroad track threw every small town or city. But the railroad hubs only hit major cities for delivery. Surely with todays technology products could be destributed more locally at a cheaper price with the railroad. Maybe there is business oppurtunity there not yet explored. Wal-mart, Lowes, Home Depot, Kroger, a small town supporting these anchor stores you would think could justify a small train hub and delivery system.

It would be great to see more of our nation's goods shipped by rail. IMHO small towns would not be good candidates for hubs because of the 'anchor stores' you mention. Walmart's business plan calls for only occupying all the stores they've been building for 10 to 15 years. Lowes, Home Depot, etc. most likely have a similarly short shelf life that would not justify the capital needed to make infrastructure changes like train hubs. Their near-sided business model only looks out for them and, in the long run, will only hurt the small towns that they invade, by forcing more permanent, local merchants out of business.

Ben

Let me provide a calm, objective scientific rational for this program:

D*mmit, I want the engine!!!!

Lutz does have a point. Unfortunately Diesel enthusiasts alone can't buy enough of these engines for GM to make money on them.

Lutz is a Puttz.:p:

We need to get diesels into the smaller, lighter duty trucks and dump the archaic gasoline engine. IF GM doesn't do it - Toyota WILL.

Lutz does have a point. Unfortunately Diesel enthusiasts alone can't buy enough of these engines for GM to make money on them.

The US (don't know about Canada's attitude) needs to stop bad mouthing diesels and accept them.

In Europe, well, actually, MOST of the world, the diesel is the NORMAL engine because they have enough sense to tax the bejesus out of the gas powered vehicles.

GM puts a diesel in the Tahoe, and my gas V8 goes up for sale. I already have two diesels in the family, and Audi is planning on bringing the diesel back in to the US for replacing my A6...

I would think GM as well as others will press on with the Diesels, since IMHO diesels are a significant part of the answer for the automakers to achieve the asinine CAFE standards that B HO is proposing.

lutz is a putz...... funny and true :D

The EnviroNazis are screaming the REAL emissions problem is CO2 (GlobalWarming), yet the diesel is part of the solution instead of the problem.

You'd think they would assist the diesel market instead of hampering it, but they never could get their acts together. Emissions controls on weedwackers are more important than Global Warming if you squint your eyes just right after a few martinis.


totally agree with ya Mcrat

The real reason for the fight against the diesel engine is that the infrastructure of the future biodiesel fuel industry won't make the tree huggers, the petroleum industry, or the slugs in Congress any money.

The true battle is over the future infrastructure not the vehicles.

This battle needs to be fought on Main Street USA and won in the minds of the American consumer, not in Congress.

Convince people that diesel is the future, not the problem, and you might see a reversal from the politicals but not unless they get "their" cut.

From tomorrow's New York Times.
Feb. 10, 2009

DETROIT —Robert A. Lutz (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/robert_a_lutz/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the blunt-talking vice chairman of General Motors (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/general_motors_corporation/index.html?inline=nyt-org) who is known as the auto industry’s consummate “car guy,” will retire at the end of this year, G.M. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/general_motors_corporation/index.html?inline=nyt-org) said Monday.

Mr. Lutz, 76, who oversees product development at G.M., will become a senior adviser on April 1 before leaving the automaker in December. Thomas G. Stephens, currently the executive vice president for global powertrain and global quality, will succeed Mr. Lutz.

Mr. Lutz, a former Marine fighter pilot whose passion for jets and muscle cars earned him the nickname “Maximum Bob,” will leave G.M. at a critical time for the company, which is borrowing $13.4 billion from the federal government to avoid bankruptcy. A staunch defender of G.M., Mr. Lutz has at times been a lightning rod for its many critics — most notably last year when he called global warming (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/globalwarming/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) “a total crock.”

We can thank the tree hugging liberals in the us government for this:mad:

yep and that just got a lot worse!!!

This battle needs to be fought on Main Street USA and won in the minds of the American consumer, not in Congress.

Convince people that diesel is the future, not the problem, and you might see a reversal from the politicals but not unless they get "their" cut.

I completely agree, but the problems lies in that the average American consumer is an idiot, and will believe what Congress tell him/her. It seems no one wants to do research of their own.

Case in point. A majority of the people who voted for nObama believe the Republican party controls Congress, and believe the housing crisis is due to GWB and his administration. Had they done research, They would know the Dems control congress and the Clinton Admin pushed FannieMae to give loans to those who are unqualified. The Repubs told them we were headed for trouble but the Dems didnt want to listen.

I dont mean to be political, but in a sense, thats what this whole diesel vs electric future is. Im 100% pro Algae biodiesel and believe that is the future we should take. I hate electric cars.

Most people are stupid and believe what they hear on the news and so forth, rather than doing research themselves to find the truth.

Another re-write of history, the republicans had control of congress when the Fannie may stuff happened. About all the B.S. with the pollution control, what really gets under my craw, is any port City like Los-angeles or Vancouver they have all these rules and tests for cars, and a freighter comes into port and pumps out as much pollution as all the vehicles ever could. Never is heard any regulations or fuel restrictions on them.

Global warming is actually quite real. And the sad part is, there is nothing we can do to stop it.

Liberals should do some damned research. Why is the earth warming up? Because we are still coming out of the last ice age.

LiberAl gorefags should do some real research before selling junk science as a basis for asinine emissions standards.

Now we have the Shoe Polish messiah jus' hepin' things along.

Jeez.

Would all the white working class Americans please report to the cotton fields for orientation tomorrow at 7 AM sharp?

Thanks.

There you go again blaming the left wing for the EPA, and a republican trait of rewriting history. Read up on it and you will find it was Ronald Reagan.

Wrong,

It was Nixon that signed the EPA into law, and not only was he a criminal, he was a damn Rockefeller liberal republican anyway.

Here in manitoba, diesel at the moment is 15 cents a liter cheaper..not sure why.

Gas is currently at 91.5 Cents, I filled my tank on the duramax at Flying J for 69 cents a liter....no joke...I had to ask three times if it was real!

What part of Canada do you live in that diesel is cheaper than gas? Diesel's been more expensive than gas in Alberta for years.


I fill up with Synoco GOLD. I paid $73.2 today and regualr gas is 94.7.... Put a huge slime on me when it cost $55 to fill the truck :D

Okay...I love the fact I bought my diesel truck now. My wife paid 45 dollars for 44 litres of gas..goes about 650 kms...I paid 53.25 bucks for 75 litres of diesel,,,last tank I got 560 km...about 13.9 l/100 km. (close to 18 miles/gallon converted to US gallons).

At least my truck is meeting what the GM sticker said I would get..cool

gas (regular unleaded) = 98.5cents/litre
diesel (ultra low sulpur less than 15ppm) = 71.0 cents/liter (Flying J in Winnipeg, both locations)
Difference = 27.5 cent/liter less!!

Yes,,I said 27.5 Cents per litre LESS...I love this...I know in my heart it can't last, but damn..it cost me almost the same to drive as my wife in her little Honda!!!

Go diesel!!

diesel diesel diesel