http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/01/diesel-pickups-dumped-by-detroit.html

Diesel Pickups Dumped By Detroit? (http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/01/diesel-pickups-dumped-by-detroit.html)
January 15, 2009
By Bill Visnic
http://www.autoobserver.com/2010%20GM%20Duramax%204.5L%20turbodiesel%20V8.jpgR emember those diesel-engine light-duty pickups we're supposed to be seeing this year? Get ready to hear the words "back burner" in relation to those product plans.

General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC all said as long ago as 2007 they would have diesel engines, respectively, for the GMT 900 pickup line (Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra); the Ford F-150 and the Dodge Ram. GM is developing an in-house 4.5-liter V8; Ford, an in-house 4.4-liter V8 derived from a European diesel and Chrysler said it would collaborate with longstanding diesel-engine partner Cummins Inc. to produce a V6 diesel.

Each of the Big Three's light-truck diesels was to launch this year. But trade journal Automotive News (http://www.autonews.com/)reports this week that Chrysler has postponed until "at least 2011" a seperate deal to use Cummins' large inline 6-cylinder diesel in heavy-duty (commercially oriented) versions of the new Ram pickup. It represents another in a string of deals between Chrysler and major suppliers recently torn asunder. The announcement casts a distinct shadow of doubt as to whether the Cummins-made light-duty V6 diesel will ever be consummated, and injects yet another reason to question Chrysler's future as an autonomous automaker.


Also this week, Ford effectively ended a long and generally prosperous relationship with its heavy-duty diesel supplier Navistar International Corp. After heavy bickering about problems with the previously successful PowerStroke heavy-duty diesel for Ford's larger F-Series pickups, the companies swapped lawsuits centered around Ford's plan to develop and build its own light-duty diesel.


Now, the two companies' decades-long heavy-duty diesel relationship is over after this year - and although Ford has said it intends to use its own diesel V8 for the light-duty F-Series this year, the Navistar development and the ongoing savaging of the pickup segment lends a pall of uncertainty to Ford's plan. The automaker was silent at the recent Detroit auto show about the diesel-powered F-150, despite formerly insinuating the engine could be earmarked for other light trucks or SUVs as well.

The same is true of GM. Although the company has produced a ground-breaking design for its all-new diesel V8 and confirmed it would be launched for light-duty pickups for the '10 model year, little has been said about the engine since the middle of last year.

Both GM and Ford have in the past cited concerns about the cost of diesel engines and the complex exhaust aftertreatment systems they require - and whether customers of personal-use pickups would embrace such expense. This was before the meltdown of the pickup segment and the broad auto market, not to mention prior to the severe financial distress to grip the Detroit automakers.


One other factor continues to weigh on the resolve of the Detroit automakers to carry out their diesel-pickup plans: the cost of diesel fuel remains stubbornly high in relation to gasoline. Although diesels are expected to return about 25 percent better fuel economy than a comparably-powered gasoline engine, diesel fuel continues to be priced markedly more than 25 percent higher than gasoline at the retail pump. If the fuel-economy advantage of diesel is erased by the cost of the fuel, the automakers believe even fewer customers will opt to lay out the considerable extra cost for the diesel-engine option.

Doesn't look good.:(

If they don't build what we want, we'll simply go elsewhere. I think I can squeeze another 10-15 years out of our collection of trucks. Longer if I have to.

I think the last paragraph about the high price of diesel at the pump is very true for the light duty 1/2 ton crowd. If your not going to get any savings at the pump between diesel and gas then the 1/2 ton crowd really has no use for a diesel engine since the gas engine will do the same work in that truck, plus you won't have the large upfront investment of the diesel engine in the truck price.

I think fuel prices are the big killer for diesel engines in general in the light duty truck market.

My .02

DD

.

I think fuel prices are the big killer for diesel engines in general in the light duty truck market.
Most folks are completely unaware that diesel vehicles typically get 30+% better fuel economy and that a smaller turbodiesel will usually outperform and outlast a much larger gas motor. Most vehicle manufacturers have pretty clueless marketing departments - so educating the marketplace isn't going to happen. You are right, it's just too bad.

Most folks are completely unaware that diesel vehicles typically get 30+% better fuel economy and that a smaller turbodiesel will usually outperform and outlast a much larger gas motor. Most vehicle manufacturers have pretty clueless marketing departments - so educating the marketplace isn't going to happen. You are right, it's just too bad.


Hmmm, most people here maybe.

A small part of the world, like the whole rest of it buy diesel. Crap you can even get some of the diesel Audi's in Mexico, I think we need some European engine action over here.

But I guess the demand or maybe like you said people just don't know enough to make a demand.

Look at the specs on the new 335D, dude!

I agree with all that is said and my feelings are that the biggest problem with todays Diesel marketplace is, 1, price of fuel. and 2, the upcharge the big 3 charge for the Diesel option over the gas engine. We are really getting screwed big time. Have a look at BMW or Mercedes, their Diesel option is right around $700 to $1000 more than gas. Why do the big 3 charge so much? Just my 2cents.

I agree with all that is said and my feelings are that the biggest problem with todays Diesel marketplace is, 1, price of fuel. and 2, the upcharge the big 3 charge for the Diesel option over the gas engine. We are really getting screwed big time. Have a look at BMW or Mercedes, their Diesel option is right around $700 to $1000 more than gas. Why do the big 3 charge so much? Just my 2cents.

Just guessing, but i would say it's because the big 3 don't have the diesel infrastructure like most euro car makers since diesel has been the fuel of choice over there for the last 25 years or so.

The rest of the world doesn't have to fight with their own "EPA" over their diesel technology

The rest of the world doesn't have to fight with their own "EPA" over their diesel technology


THANK YOU!

Its about time someone said it!

Just guessing, but i would say it's because the big 3 don't have the diesel infrastructure like most euro car makers since diesel has been the fuel of choice over there for the last 25 years or so.
The Big 3 have lots of nice diesels that they sell everywhere else in the world, we just don't get them here. GM alone has 9 or 10 very nice little diesels running from 1.3 liters up to the 6.6 - and we only get the biggest one. The rest would be nice in smaller vehicles. Ford's got several nice ones as well. BMW's little 2.0 liter makes massive power out of a tiny engine. The Mini "D" pulls fantastic mileage - but we don't get them.

Ogre is correct. The EPA is the enemy.

I think light duty diesels are not going to make it to market. Up front cost, fuel cost, and maint. costs are just too high compared to a gas powered vehicle.

However, this new technology looks promising.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/02/ford-developing-next-gen-ethanol-boosted-engines-under-codename/

It is a known fact, the EPA hates all Diesel Engines. If it was up to them we would all run nothing but gasoline. Just look at all the stupid laws they keep coming up with. You don't see that crap with a gasoline engine.

Just look at Europe, half of all vehicles on the road are Diesel!

If, and that is a big IF, gasoline motors can be made that have power and milage similar to that of a diesel, yet cost less to purchase, fuel, and maintaine, I can't see any reason to have the diesel.

What am I not seeing that would keeps the diesel superior in some way?

If, and that is a big IF, gasoline motors can be made that have power and milage similar to that of a diesel, yet cost less to purchase, fuel, and maintaine, I can't see any reason to have the diesel.

What am I not seeing that would keeps the diesel superior in some way?
Biodiesel works well in many diesels - it is a domestically produced, renewable energy source - helping to stop the mass shipment of our money overseas to people that hate us. That's a pretty good start.

Can we assume that since you don't view gasoline motors as powerful or efficient as diesels that you don't see a reason to own a gasoline motor now? I cannot! I'd rather have the longevity, durability and efficiency of a diesel over a gasser. I'm still looking for a diesel that will fit in my motorcycle!

Huge upfront option cost of diesel . Pretty lame mpg numbers. ( thanks to the epa )Diesel fuel highest fuel at the pump. How would you convince anyone other than most on this site that need a big diesel with alot of torque to tow big weight, that a small diesel makes sense.

I'd rather have the longevity, durability and efficiency of a diesel over a gasser.

Absolutely!

The EPA needs to get a clue.

Half ton diesels would be far superior to gassers. The market may not be there right now but that could change with a little advertising.

Then all it would take is a small tweak to the diesel fuel prices (like put them back where they should be) and voila!

I have wanted the 4.5 in a half ton since I heard they were going to make it. I love my diesel truck --- however, until initial cost can be gained back over the long haul I don't see a diesel half ton as a viable option. I don't pull heavy much any more, so I really don't need the power (but it sure is fun).

If diesel fuel were the same as gasoline in cost, I would think the diesel would have a chance. But with it running at 20% to 40% more, and with the new technology gasoline engines that get almost as good on economy, its just a hard sell.

My next truck will most likely be a half ton, but unless a new diesel can significantly out perform the available gas engines, I just have a hard time paying the extra cost. I also imagine that most half ton buyers are in the same boat.

i did notice a couple of vw commercials on tv last weekend promoting diesel and diesel technology. I wish gm would actually show people what diesels are capable. I think the vw commercial said the diesel vw was named "green car of 2009"

If diesel fuel were the same as gasoline in cost, I would think the diesel would have a chance. But with it running at 20% to 40% more, and with the new technology gasoline engines that get almost as good on economy, its just a hard sell.
Not even close - my 2000, automatic-equipped VW regularly pulled 48 mpg running the A/C. A Prius won't do that. My 3/4 ton Dodge gets 20-24 mpg and will drag a gasser and all it can tow and still get better mileage then the gasser with a little load. A 6.6 Duramax can do the same. Many of GM's foreign-market-only diesels will challenge the VW engine as well. Diesel is a better way to go.

It is a known fact, the EPA hates all Diesel Engines. If it was up to them we would all run nothing but gasoline. Just look at all the stupid laws they keep coming up with. You don't see that crap with a gasoline engine.

Just look at Europe, half of all vehicles on the road are Diesel!


I think its pretty obviouse the EPA hates diesels. Why else would they overrate the real world mileage of a Prius and underrate the real world mileage of a Jetta TDI.


On a side note, im happy to see more Diesel commercials from BMW and VW. They seem to be on our side.

However, this new technology looks promising.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/02/ford-developing-next-gen-ethanol-boosted-engines-under-codename/

This isn't new technology, you ever hear of methanol/water injection? The only thing they are doing different is injecting it directly and replacing methanol with ethenol. There is no way they will get "diesel like power" out of this.

bccorvette,

There is a world of difference between the meth/water inj on a diesel and direct injection of methonal on a gasser.

On a diesel, it is used to cool the incoming air. On a gasser it is used to control detonation. On the diesel it allows for a little denser air charge which means more power. On a gasser it means much higher compression and forced induction (turbo) without the problems of predetonation, as well as much advanced spark. Pretty cool in my book, but I have yet to see if it can do all they claim.

Don't get me wrong guys... I love diesel and want it. I just can't see it as a viable option right now in light of the higher cost of fuel, maint, initial purchase price and the epa rules that hurt the efficiency of the diesel.

The deciding factor for me will be the performance factor between the two (I have to have something to justify the higher cost).

GM Committed To 2010 Light-Duty Diesel Even If Buyer's Aren't
Posted by Mike Levine | January 20, 2009

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/01/gm-committed-to-2010-lightduty-diesel.html

GM is the last truck maker to remain committed to offering a light-duty diesel engine by 2010, even though GM's vice chairman of global product development Bob Lutz says half-ton buyers are unlikely to opt for the oil burner in the current environment.

"The whole light-duty diesel thing is fraught with problems," Lutz told PickupTrucks.com at the 2009 Detroit auto show. "To meet Tier 2 Bin 5 (50-state federal emissions regulations), the engines are getting more and more expensive. We've already hit the pain threshold with the regular (6.6-liter) Duramax diesel where the customer is saying wait a minute, an $11,000 premium for a diesel engine. I'll buy the gas."

Lutz wouldn't say if the 2010 calendar year still remained a viable date to introduce GM's new 4.5-liter Duramax V-8. However, GM powertrain spokeswoman Susan Garavaglia told PickupTrucks.com that GM is still planning to roll out the engine in its Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra half-ton pickups next year.

GM says the clean diesel is expected to be rated in excess of 310 horsepower and 520 pounds-feet of torque. Fuel efficiency is said to be improved by 25 percent, CO2 emissions cut by 13 percent, and particulate and NOx emissions cut by at least 90 percent.

But even with improved fuel economy, Lutz said, "you save 25 percent fuel use but you'll pay 25 percent more per gallon. And you pay a premium upfront for the engines. Where's the advantage?"

Other vehicle manufacturers have shelved or killed plans for light-duty diesels in cars and trucks. Chrysler has said its Cummins-source Ram won't be available until 2011 at the earliest. Ford and Toyota have both shelved their diesels indefinitely.

"Everybody's coming to the same conclusion. Explain how this makes sense to the customer," Lutz said.

But even with improved fuel economy, Lutz said, "you save 25 percent fuel use but you'll pay 25 percent more per gallon. And you pay a premium upfront for the engines. Where's the advantage?"

Other vehicle manufacturers have shelved or killed plans for light-duty diesels in cars and trucks. Chrysler has said its Cummins-source Ram won't be available until 2011 at the earliest. Ford and Toyota have both shelved their diesels indefinitely.

"Everybody's coming to the same conclusion. Explain how this makes sense to the customer," Lutz said.


So I guess they do have a clue.

The only options are to lower prices for diesel fuel, which I don't think will happen, or lower the price of the engines so there is not a large up front cost, which I don't think will happen either.

So now what ??

DD

.

Whats Furd gonna do without Navistar? That it really matters!



Ford, Navistar Settle Dispute


By Light & Medium Truck

Navistar International Corp. will stop selling diesel engines to Ford Motor Co. in January 2010 as part of the settlement in a two-year-old dispute between the companies.

The engine supply contract originally was due to last until 2012.

The agreement, announced in a joint release Jan. 13, also ends all existing litigation between the companies. As part of the agreement, Ford will pay Navistar an undisclosed amount.

Navistar also will become majority shareholder in Blue Diamond, a joint venture business that includes a medium-duty truck assembly plant in Mexico and a parts distribution operation.

“Navistar and Ford benefited from a successful partnership that provided value to both companies for nearly three decades,” Dan Ustian, Navistar chairman, president and chief executive officer, said in the release. “However, it’s in our best interests to resolve our conflict and continue our relationship with each other in other areas.”

The problems between the companies became public in early 2007, when Ford sued Navistar for money to pay for warranty work Ford claimed was needed because of problems with a new engine, a 6.0-liter V-8 diesel, developed to meet the 2004 diesel emission standards.

Ford also claimed that Navistar was charging too much for the next-generation engine, a 6.4-liter V-8 developed to fix the problems in the 6.0.

Navistar countersued a few months later, claiming that Ford was violating their engine supply agreement by developing its own diesel engine.

bccorvette,

There is a world of difference between the meth/water inj on a diesel and direct injection of methonal on a gasser.

On a diesel, it is used to cool the incoming air. On a gasser it is used to control detonation. On the diesel it allows for a little denser air charge which means more power. On a gasser it means much higher compression and forced induction (turbo) without the problems of predetonation, as well as much advanced spark. Pretty cool in my book, but I have yet to see if it can do all they claim.


I was talking about Meth/water inj on gas engines. I should have made that a little more clear. In the aftermarket world and turbo charging world of gas engines it has been around for a long time, just not direct injected. My buddy has it on his ws6 TT ls1, it makes a world of difference in the power department, but you have to really spray in quite a bit to make the octane you want. I know a lot of other people using it on gas engines with supercharged/turbocharged but like I said, I really don't see it making "diesel like power" just isn't going to happen.

So I guess they do have a clue.

The only options are to lower prices for diesel fuel, which I don't think will happen, or lower the price of the engines so there is not a large up front cost, which I don't think will happen either.

So now what ??

DD

.


Well here in Central KY, gas is around $1.85 gallon, diesel is around $2.15. Much improved compared to the $2 difference just a few months ago. I do think diesel can/will be a game changer with better mpg's, and less emissions with the new regs coming in '10, but only if our gov. gets biodiesel going. Bio from algae will change everything, but we can't get sucked into the thought, well, oil is cheap now, it'll take 15 years to see a benefit, etc. This was our thinking (forever) and look at where it's gotten us now. Bio is the future! Chris

bccorvette,

You very well may be correct that it won't match the performance of a diesel ... I don't know. I'm just going by what I read.

There is still a difference between manifold injection (which is what you are referring to) and direct injection. On the direct injection, they say it uses very little ethanol to control preignition, it is not being used to create a denser air charge.

Time will tell, but in the past on of the reasons gasoline engines couldn't produce the tourque of a diesel at low rpm was the fact you couldn't run as high a compression without severe preignition issues. With this new technology, high compression and turbo charging can be used without adverse affects. More air/fuel at low rpm will equal more tourque.

I'm no expert on this stuff, just going by what I read. One article even said they were thinking of trying this for big rig applications.:eek:

If it really can have the performance of a diesel with much less cost, I'd buy one.

Whats Furd gonna do without Navistar? That it really matters!



Ford, Navistar Settle Dispute


By Light & Medium Truck

Navistar International Corp. will stop selling diesel engines to Ford Motor Co. in January 2010 as part of the settlement in a two-year-old dispute between the companies.

The engine supply contract originally was due to last until 2012.

The agreement, announced in a joint release Jan. 13, also ends all existing litigation between the companies. As part of the agreement, Ford will pay Navistar an undisclosed amount.

Navistar also will become majority shareholder in Blue Diamond, a joint venture business that includes a medium-duty truck assembly plant in Mexico and a parts distribution operation.

“Navistar and Ford benefited from a successful partnership that provided value to both companies for nearly three decades,” Dan Ustian, Navistar chairman, president and chief executive officer, said in the release. “However, it’s in our best interests to resolve our conflict and continue our relationship with each other in other areas.”

The problems between the companies became public in early 2007, when Ford sued Navistar for money to pay for warranty work Ford claimed was needed because of problems with a new engine, a 6.0-liter V-8 diesel, developed to meet the 2004 diesel emission standards.

Ford also claimed that Navistar was charging too much for the next-generation engine, a 6.4-liter V-8 developed to fix the problems in the 6.0.

Navistar countersued a few months later, claiming that Ford was violating their engine supply agreement by developing its own diesel engine.
They annouced they will be closing the Navistar Plant here in Indy (which is one of two that make the Powerstroke motors. The other in Alabama will remain for now until the contract with ford runs out.

I don't believe the negativity surrounding the diesel market, new diesel technology will be something that will be continually invested in.

Looks like Ford's ecoboost may be a nice alternative to diesel. An ecoboost F150 would be nicely capable and could get around 25mpg hwy with unleaded fuel price savings.

My opinion on why diesels are a tough sell:

1. American provincialism and resistance to change (still waiting for the metric system after 35 years).

2. Bad press from prior attempts (anyone remember the Oldsmobile cutlass where GM converted their gas 350 to diesel?).

3. Ethanol lobby ($billions for corn).

4. EPA (beholden to all of the above).

5. Most people don't care if their engine will get 300k miles. They never intend to keep a vehicle that long.

bad thing after reading what Lutz said, thought about $11,000 for 2009 Duramax. when i bought my truck, engine was $5,200, 2nd year so yo got design and start-up costs, in 8 years manufacturing block strengthened, change piston, turbo, intake, fuel injection, these costs i would associate with emissions, lets see $5,800 more than double. with state and fed epa given free reign, i expect gas engines to get higher in $$.

bad thing after reading what Lutz said, thought about $11,000 for 2009 Duramax. when i bought my truck, engine was $5,200, 2nd year so yo got design and start-up costs, in 8 years manufacturing block strengthened, change piston, turbo, intake, fuel injection, these costs i would associate with emissions, lets see $5,800 more than double. with state and fed epa given free reign, i expect gas engines to get higher in $$.


If they really mean $11K over the cost of a gas engine then no question they should stop building diesels. Go to BMW web site and price a 335 and 335D. The diesel is about $4K more. The 335 gas is no slouch with twin turbos.

The key hear is diesel fuel prices. I believe we are selling our diesel to the Europeans and they are selling us their gas. The reason that diesel is so high now is that the economics of creating diesel have changed. When most production was gas then diesel was almost a throw away and hence the smaller price. Since we insist on using stupid diesel over the road trucks to ship nearly everything we are consuming far more diesel on a percentage basis. We need to ship far more via trains and then diesel may come down in price.

My dealer here is selling 10 gas powered three quarter ton pickups to one diesel due to the diesel engine upcharge and the price of fuel. Talked to a guy the other day and he said he could tow his fifth wheel with the gasser no problem, and so what if it shifts all the time, its under warranty and like he said, its 250 a month cheaper in payments and every bit as good on fuel unloaded than his brothers lmm.

My dealer here is selling 10 gas powered three quarter ton pickups to one diesel due to the diesel engine upcharge and the price of fuel. Talked to a guy the other day and he said he could tow his fifth wheel with the gasser no problem, and so what if it shifts all the time, its under warranty and like he said, its 250 a month cheaper in payments and every bit as good on fuel unloaded than his brothers lmm.
Unless he's using that 5th wheel regularly, he might as well get a little subcompact and stay in 4 star hotels. Maybe a subcompact diesel!!!

I don't think I'd want to touch a newer diesel - I can work on my older one and I don't have to work on it as often as the newer ones require! It's paid for and can be made to do anything a newer diesel can do. If I needed something to pull a large 5th wheel, I'd rather go for a used 1 ton than anything new. I'm curious how many other people are of the same mindset.

The key hear is diesel fuel prices. I believe we are selling our diesel to the Europeans and they are selling us their gas. The reason that diesel is so high now is that the economics of creating diesel have changed. When most production was gas then diesel was almost a throw away and hence the smaller price. Since we insist on using stupid diesel over the road trucks to ship nearly everything we are consuming far more diesel on a percentage basis. We need to ship far more via trains and then diesel may come down in price.

Don't trains run on diesel??? I do have to believe that diesel prices are so high, because the oil companies want it that way. They could refine more diesel, but they don't. It means more money for them if they can keep the diesel supply down.

My dealer here is selling 10 gas powered three quarter ton pickups to one diesel due to the diesel engine upcharge and the price of fuel. Talked to a guy the other day and he said he could tow his fifth wheel with the gasser no problem, and so what if it shifts all the time, its under warranty and like he said, its 250 a month cheaper in payments and every bit as good on fuel unloaded than his brothers lmm.


I have yet to see a gas engine get better mpg than a diesel, all else being equal.

mpg isn't the only cost when running a vehicle.

Me, I'm still driving a diesel because I like the way it performs, not because the bottom line costs are less, because last I checked they are now higher for a diesel. Used to be you could make back much of the initial extra paid up front in the resale value, but diesel resale values have really dived lately also.

Bottom line, if you want to justify a diesel purchase because it will cost less in the long run, in my opinion it won't happen. Buy a diesel because currently there is nothing that can perform like they do.

I have yet to see a gas engine get better mpg than a diesel, all else being equal.

i never said it was better