"Ram Heavy Duty Cummins "600" is also capable of zero-throttle launches, enabling smooth drive-offs under load with the 6-speed manual transmission."


This was in a press release under the topic Hoot started discussing the rumor of a new transmission and Cummins 600 engine.


Reading it puts lots of thoughts in my mind. The little 555ft. lb. Cummins I now have does that and more. I just never knew if it was "too much" to include that feature in my praise of this Dodge/Cummins package. Here's how mine works.


I can start out in 1st through 3rd gear without touching the throttle, even under load. When slowing down in higher gears this truck will just not stall or buck. It just gets into some kind of computer control mode that throttles the engine automatically. It won't stall.


What is great about this is you can twist around while backing up large trailers and just use your left foot on the clutch. There is no need to throttle and it's like having an automatic that you throttle with the left foot. GREAT feature. I just did not know what to call it.


"Zero Throttle Launches" also means I don't use the throttle for parking lot maneuvers in any direction. I can also start out on steep hills with no worry of drifting back by keeping my right foot on the brake until the clutch catches and starts the rig to move. It's a manual transmission 'automatic' and I have been lovin' it.


WOW! I'm no longer going to be reluctant to praise this truck. The Cummins has torque in spades, quiet operation, simplicity, economy, ease of maintainance, and a history of reliability far superior to any other light truck diesel. The Dodge truck is far more stable, rugged in suspension, comfortable under towing conditions, higher, easier to operate controls, better paint, larger tires, and is just a far superior package compared to the GM/Duramax for the experience I have had so far.


There - I said it. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

On second thought....


I'll save it for a rainy dayEdited by: Max Power

Max Power, I read your post before you deleted it. My Chevy did the same thing.


MikeyB

Maybe so, not in an arguing mood. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

That's great Mel

Hope things stay down the rosie path for you ..... If things should wilt let us know also ,as we know not everything is as purfect as it seems .... After all your truck is just a virgin ..... Wait till the rattles begin .....

How did you feel in your first few GM Duramax tows prior to any unseen issues,remember ??

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Mackin,


I loved the Duramax for 117,000 miles. My first out-west tow did have a fuel filter plug and a premature shut-down to limp mode. That was expensive as neither I nor the dealer in Kingman, AZ knew what to do. After that I loved the truck and, like the blind men and the elephant, thought it was just fine for towing.


After it became "unrepairable" I still tried to buy another one. GM loyalty is hard to rationalize. This Dodge/Cummins has really been an unexpected "eye-opener" so far. I just never had a truck that towed so effortlessly. I was so stupid that I did not even know towing could be easier than the Duramax allowed. It has been a pleasant surprise as I had, like so many on here, preconceived prejudices against the Dodge. I too wait for all these things that are 'going to happen'. And...I will be the first to tell you if they occur.

My Allison has Zero throttle takeoff http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Glad you're happy Mal although how do you figure GM went from 2% market share three years ago to 30% today in diesel? Not because of people with experiences like you.

At the same time Dodge went from #2 to #3 in diesel sales. How can that be? Give it time before jumping for joy. (been guilty in the past myself)

Happy shifting http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

Edited by: hoot

Hoot,


You da man. I knew nothing about your statistics and am quite surprised. Do not know why but have an idea.


Dodge has a bad reputation. I bought into it for years. Still kind of believe it will be bad, except for the Cummins.


GM has a great reputation. I have never heard or read of any "Consumer Reports" discussing the horrors or the Duramax fuel system failures. There are very few people on the internet - like me? - taking the time and the flack to tell people just how bad the Duramax is. People just don't know. That could be reasons why they buy the Duramax?


Most people do not tow much with their trucks. Most people do not put a lot of mileage on their trucks. For them the Duramax is a perfectly acceptable choice. For all who tow on a regular basis, and I mean towing heavy loads on a commercial scale, the Duramax is a nightmare. I am not telling you anything you don't already know. It's just that so many can't relate to the problems in the Duramax design that cause all the high mileage failures.


Forget Brokers. Remember HD90Rider? He tows all the time and did have over 250,000 on his Duramax last I heard. He also had a variation of all the troubles and expenses I had.


Truck stops are where I live at night. There I spend evenings with other commercial haulers. We share our experiences with the trucks. The Powerstrokes often go high mileage - 300,000 or more. The lose transmissions, cam sensors and an occasional injector and pump. Some of the new 6.0's DO work. Many have been major dissapointments and the owners switched to Cummins.


The Cummins lose automatic 47RE's around 150,000 miles and lift pumps about the same time. The rest of the package often runs upwards of a million miles.


The Duramax is always spoken of as a real mess. Simple as that. Those that have tried, like me, bailed out. Others we talk with just love their Druamax's but always they are recreational haulers with their own trailers on vacation and have low mileage.


The Cummins is the standard to measure commercial pickup hauling against. It's that way for a reason. Maybe the truck does suck? But remember, the motor sure does pull day after year after 100's of thousands of miles. Broken down along the road time after time with no real prospect of repair is far from fun and reduculously expensive.


Then there is the issue of mechanics at GM dealerships all over the country and clueless on how to fix them. Labor and parts prices are outrageous while they fool around hoping to stumble on the solutions. We don't all have the luxury of breaking down near Eric Merchant.

Just to add to Capt. If a Dodge dealer can't fix the motor, if you have problem, you can take it to Cummins. They are located all across the country along major highways.


Capt. you must be able to read my mind. Like you said, the GM's maybe nice for weekend recreation haulers, or people that don't keep their trucks long, but if you are going to be using your truck for a living and hauling heavy loads day in and day out the Cummins/Dodge is the bench mark that others are compared with. (If only Dodge would make a crew cab or 4500-5500!!!!)


I know most here think Dodge is a POS, to bad you are missing out on a good product if you need a heavy duty high milage hauler. They are not perfect, but they have proven that they can go the distance.


My personal take: GM was not going after that focuss group but more for the rec. hauler/leasing person that trades up every 36-48 months or 50-70K miles. Makes more sense (larger group/high vehicle turn over=more sales) then going after the people that keeps their trucks for 300K-1 million miles.

Mal,

I don't think there are that many out there using the DMax for hard commercial hauling. I would more like to hear from fleet owners than single individuals about their experiences.

I ran into a guy a couple of weeks ago at a filling station. He had a nice black Chevy dually 6.5TD. Asked me how I liked my truck. Said he was thinking about getting one but some buddy of his up in NY that does commercial told him to stay away, they're having major problems with the aluminum heads. I said "Really, I've been exposed to a lot of information on the status of the Dmax over the years and head problems has so far not been a major issue". He insisted.

He hauls with his 6.5 TD and loves it. After an extended conversation, I walked away with a strong impression that he know absolutely nothing about diesels.

I found that to be true of many commercial truck drivers too. Half of them don't even know what engine is in their truck. I don't say that to draw negativism toward truck drivers.... they just don't seem to care what's under the hood.

Why do you discount Broker's experiences? Doesn't he own Dmaxes with great success?

My personal take: GM was not going after that focuss group but more for the rec. hauler/leasing person that trades up every 36-48 months or 50-70K miles. Makes more sense (larger group/high vehicle turn over=more sales) then going after the people that keeps their trucks for 300K-1 million miles.





I believe the same. GM has turned the 1/2 ton pickup into a soccer mom vehicle. Can't even carry a 1/2 ton in the bed without it bringing the truck to its knees. After 5 years of trying to use my Chevy as a truck ended up de-arching the rear springs. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif


I don't know where the Dodge's tarnished reputation comes from. I have friends driving Dodge pickups that seems to very reliable, they do get crappy mileage (5.2, 5.9 gasser) and the common problem is weak intake gaskets (GM 5.7 has the same problem). And the Dodges seems to be much tighter at 80,000 miles than my Chevy did at 25,000 miles.


So as a gamble I switched to Dodge. I did test drive a Chevy 2500HD extended cab D/A LT as a comparison. It had the typical GM sloppy brakes and steering, just like the 1/2 ton. I wasn't impressed with the truck at all. The Dodge is more truck like, especially the ride, but the brakes are fantastic, and the steering is razor sharp, the handling is impressive for a heavy truck. And as a test I put 2k lbs of feed corn in the bed, and the truck acted like it wasn't even back there, other than making the ride smoother. I have 6500 miles on the clock now and time will tell, but so far I'm very happy with my decision.


BTW, I have a '03 Dodge 2500 Quad cab SWB 4x2 HO/6spd/3.73 Laramie with every option.


MikeyB

Hoot,


We agree again. Quite a few of the people who literally 'live' in their trucks do not know much about them. They also do not participate in any kind of internet information and forums. That is both good and bad for me when I speak with them.


It's good in that they mostly do not have the prejudices we have after hearing reports of failures. They only relate what their own history is. I like that.


It's bad in that they often do very poor maintainance and literally run their trucks into the ground. They also fall prey to rumor...ie: the aluminum head issue. Then they quote what they "heard" to me. I dispell that issue but rumors die hard, both positive and negative ones.


I still feel Brokers is a scam. See...."rumors die hard". He cost me over $100 to buy and carry around an extra belt and tensioner because he said they always broke. At the end, my original belt and tensioner were still like new. Then I read all the 'other things' and drew my own conclusions. Hd90rider was the only high mileage operator I believed. To this day I have yet to meet a single Duramax operator with high mileage that tows on a regular basis. Not one. I have met some who claimed to have tried and they no longer were running that truck. It might just be my circumstances but the next high mileage Duramax operator I speak directly with will be the first.


Remember, "high mileage" and towing are the keys. When you tow lots of fuel goes through the motor for the indicated mileage and there is far more drive-line strain that solo or light recreational haulers get into.


Read what Kinz just said at the end and I agree, based on my personal experiences. I also realize that I know just a tiny microcosm of the whole issue.

Capt,


BTW - Good post from Cummins on fuel filtration and fuel injection systems. At least the individual wrote what his view was instead of some "corporate bs". Some of those words should be included in every owners manual (Dodge, GM & Ford)


I think what really came out in the above posts is that there are many different uses for trucks produced by the manufactures. People use these things for construction, personal transportation, farming, recreational towing, hot rodding, soccer mom vehicles, heavy towing, delivery, picking up Christmas trees, whatever,,,,,,, It is impossible for one truck to be the best at doing them all. It looks like you have found the engine/truck that fits your needs (high mileage, heavy towing). What makes these forums entertaining is all the debate on which brand does the best in which category. (There does seem to be a concensus on different forums that the Cummins engine excels at high mileage, heavy towing.)


I still feel the biggest unknown moving forward for you is the new fuel injection system. The DMAX and Cummins fuel systems have a similar heritage, which is Bosch. While the injection systems may not look exactly the same on the outside, if you look at the internal workings they are probably very similar (this is just my opinion as an engineer). I also think the Bosch fuel injection system can go the distance, given good fuel filtration. Cummins is most likely more aggressive on filtration (than GM) given their heritage of building engines to go 500K miles as you and others mention above. The remainder of the engine package seems well suited for your needs of pulling heavy loads with high frontal areas.


Keep us posted as you roll-up more miles. By the time I'm ready for a truck replacement in early 2006, you should be around 250K miles http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Captmal...

In that case... with your last post... I don't think we have enough to go on at this time. Your personal experience and the experiences of the masses, with regards to the Dmax and commercial operation are two different things. I personally believe it's still too early to make brand switching decisions at this stage.

Especially when the other engines are untested for the long haul.
Edited by: hoot

"Especially when the other engines are untested for the long haul"


I think the Capt tried to make the long haul with a Dmax but found out that it couldn't make it. He also mentioned that others like him have found the same thing.


I guess if GM paid him to be a beta tester maybe he might have stuck it out and not gotten stuck with the bills he tallied up.


If I were him, and I am not, I would go with a company that is tested in making long lasting engines designed around comericial use not a GM joint jap. start up company.


Look at the problems Duramaxs are having, reguarding injectorsand its fuel system, on trucks over 100K. GM makes them to go to warrenty and thats it.


Like I said before, they are nice engines (duramax) as long as it is under warrenty. After that.....you couldn't give me one, especially if it needed injectorshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


Hoot, out of curiosity, do you or any of your family work for GM?

Hoot, out of curiosity, do you or any of your family work for GM?

Nope. No affiliation whatsoever. None of my family does either. One brother drives a Dodge gasser.

Do you own a Dmax?Edited by: hoot

Hoot,


Cool.


You could be my idol but I learned long ago never to worship gods with feet of clay.


Maybe I ment you could be my idle?

Looks like it's time to exit the Dodge room.... give this a year or so. Believe me, I have no wishes for anybody to have failures. Edited by: hoot

Hoot,


This forum needs more Dodge owners active and entering this room. It seems that most posting here are Duramax owners. Thank goodness for that or it would be quite inactive.


I'll keep trying.

I agree. The more the merrier.

Hoot,


This forum needs more Dodge owners active and entering this room. It seems that most posting here are Duramax owners. Thank goodness for that or it would be quite inactive.


I'll keep trying.


I' I' Captain here and reporting for duty.


I was like you had heard all the BS about how crappy the dodge part was but I wanted the cummins boy am I glad I did my truck has 150,000 miles on it and the cab and body are as tight as any new chevy and the doors even close on the first try. As for the "POS" automatic I replaced the original at 140,000 not because it failed but I wanted to go with the suncoast just to make it pull even better and handle the added power without future problems. I just checked my mileage on my last tank and I got 17.8 mpg on winter fuel with 4.10 axles and makeing around 350hp and 750 torque. I never imagined that a truck motor could pull this effortlessly it just amazes me everytime I hook up a trailer to it. My father inlaw bought a new Dmax and he was telling me how well his pulls, he was saying that he can really feel the power when he locks it out of overdrive and into tow haul. I was thinking that I have never had to take it out of overdrive to pull any of the hills that he pulls and my fith wheel weighs more than what he pulls.

Cumminsgetsome,


Man you really have the power 'cummin' out dat motor. Rebuilding transmissions is common with the Allison also. No shame in modifications .... according the the Duramax/Allison guys. They have?... to do it all the time.


It was quite a shock for me, and still is, to experience how much better this Dodge/Cummins is than the GMC Duramax for towing. If I were running solo most of the time this manual is rough to deal with, expecially in town. Then I would get the newer 48RE transmission.


The Cummins is so much simpler to service and live with than the Duramax. It is astonishing. The rest of the truck seems the equal or better (fuel tank, suspension, inside room) than the GMC so at best the GMC ties in a few areas and only accells in being more smooth and nimble around town.


Town????? Isn't that something you want to avoid?


I'm on my way to Tampa. Back on by the weekend.

Captain Mal,


Give it time for the manual tranny to break in. Mine was pretty stiff at first but with almost 7000 miles it's shifting better. I read that switching over to synthetics (Redline MTL, Royal Purple Syncromax) will help even more.


MikeyB

MIKEYB,


The tranny shifts easily and the clutch is not hard to use. My beef is that you start out in 2nd and almost immediately must shift into 3rd. The engine does not like to rev easily. Then the shifts from 3rd through 5th must also come quickly. Once running 6th lasts 'forever' with only a real slow-down requiring downshifting to 5th.


Under stop and start driving all the shifting is ponderous and acceleration is not brisk because of it. Other traffic just seems to jump away from me unless I get real busy starting out.


During a trailer tow it is quite fast for having a trailer on. All my objections are then gone and it sure is a dream with all that effortless power.


Hook me up and send me out. I'm heading for my Tampa house right now. Back on here this weekend.

Captainmal,


Try skip shifting. Start in 2nd, rev to around 2800+rpms and then shift into 4th. You will find the acceleration "brisk". Can also skip 5th.


MikeyB

Just get ya a splitter and use the high side for unloaded driving. You could use all the gears but 6th with the High side.





Burner-------> http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Well, I just joined "The Diesel Place" last night since you guy's have a Dodge Forum and captainmal needs some mates. I have owned 3 Cummins powered Rams, two 2003's and my current '04.


I logged about 8,000 miles on each of the two '03s and the 2004 has roughly 2,500 miles on the clock. I am well aware that these trucks were/are not even broken in. However, none of these trucks have had any issue's except for a bad shock on one '03 and a rpm specific vibration felt in the steering wheel of the 2004. The vibration issue has been addressed by Dodge and I will be scheduling a service appoitment to have the problem resolved.


I am not here to bash any brand of Diesel pickup, I think they all have strength's and weakness's. More than likely if I were to by a new diesel tommorrow and Dodge was not in the game I would purchase a D-Max/Allison GMC.


The only complaint's I have regarding my Dodge in Comparison to my wife's 2003 Tahoe Z71 (same interior as your pickups right?) is the Chevy power, leather, heated, seats are more comfortable than both the Dodge cloth or leather power seat's (had both) and the Bose stereo is a little nicer than the Dodge Infinity. Other than that I think the Dodge is a well built, tight truck. As others have pointed out the steering is razor sharp and the brake's are awesome. I don't know how the GM HD trucks steer or brake but in comparison to my Ram the Tahoe has lousy brake's and the steering is o.k. at best


Rosco

Rosco,


I thought my GMC Duramax steered and braked well both towing and solo. It was a good truck with a faulty fuel system.


Neighbor in Pa. has 75,000 on his '03 Cummins HO. Nothing done to it at all and he tows 1/2 of the mileage with large trailers he delivers. He just loves the truck.


Noticed on my run here to Tampa that this truck does not give good fuel mileage running 80 to 85mph. I was heavily loaded but not towing for the last 1,200 miles. 17 mpg is what I averaged. The Duramax would do that good or better at those speeds. Both have 3.73's but one is Allison and the other a 6 speed. That 6 cylinder does not like higher revs around 2,500 rpm.


This Cummins could use a 7 speed.

Noticed on my run here to Tampa that this truck does not give good fuel mileage running 80 to 85mph. I was heavily loaded but not towing for the last 1,200 miles. 17 mpg is what I averaged. The Duramax would do that good or better at those speeds. Both have 3.73's but one is Allison and the other a 6 speed. That 6 cylinder does not like higher revs around 2,500 rpm.


This Cummins could use a 7 speed.





Not bad for a high profile four wheel drive vehicle. My 4x2 gets around 19.5-20mpg at 80mph. Slow down to 73mph it jumps up to 21.5-22mpg. Haven't check the economy at 100+ mph yet. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif


MikeyB

Mikeyb,


That "high profile" issue just might be the answer. Guy living near me in Pa. gets better mileage but his is a 2 wheel drive '03 Cummins. That profile is a whole lot lower than my 4x4.


Of course I have more "space" under my truck but the truck is still a truck and the bodies are the same size. If "profile" is the issue than there is a penalty to pay for the air under the body and the extra drag of the front differential.


Guess that's common sense if you think about race cars and how low they are built.


100mph is dooable with the Cummins. I tried and I know, but only for a very brief time. The Duramax/Allison had a governor and stopped around 94mph on my gps. Did not reset the fuel computer for an instant check. Looks like motivation for another test.

Cap,


I would not be suprised if my steering and braking comparison is off base since I was using my Tahoe and not a HD2500/3500 as an example.