I've been studying my Bosch manuals looking for some information on the various models of the HPCR pump we have to no avail. I've heard the "CP3" term thrown around a bit, but I'm looking for something a little more definitive.

I'm studying up on these pumps, because I've got a strong feeling that Bosch uses the same housing "case" for the 3 pluger radial HPCR pump in many different applications. Similar to how the VP44 had 3 different plunger diameters; 7.0, 7.5, 8.0 on the ISB Cummins engine.

There is also another variable to the CP3 pump. The transmission ratio, as Bosch calls it, can be had in 1/2 or 2/3rd's crankshaft speed. Does anyone know what ratio the Duramax is using?

Assuming we currently use the 1/2 ratio, if we upgraded to the 2/3 ratio we could solve quite a few fuel starvation issues.

The pump would charge the rail up to the commanded rate and then bypass the rest of the increased fuel flow. This would create heat, but would be much better than popping/cracking/sputtering due to extremely low rail pressure.

Or a combination of both increased diamter plungers and increased pump speed ratio for those running big injectors and higher power numbers.

Let's get this figured out :grd:

Just run two pumps.....Betcha if you dig enough, somebodies already looking into it.

Us Forders had a similar situation with our HPOP's. Dual pumps solved the nozzle pressure issue, only to sling rods out of the block......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/hihi.gif

Patience grasshopper, great things come to those who wait....................its in the works

Bosch, as a corporation employs a common trend among many manufacturers today known as "lean and common". Applied to the HPCR it would mean one pump housing and many different configurations/calibrations. They've been building pumps this way for quite a while, and it's a good system, saves money, parts, time, and headaches. Don't think that they would have changed that practice on the HPCR.

Why run two pumps when one will do exactly what you need, much better. Hopefully it will be just a matter of swapping out the hydraulic plunger assembly, which means bolt on. You just can't bolt on another HP pump.

Good thinking, but not the direction I want to go.

I don't think :knock on wood: that the Dmax will have the windowing problems that the powerstroke guys have. Quite a few dmax's are running 500+ on daily drivers and beating them hard at higher RPMS, and no problems yet.

Just run two pumps.....Betcha if you dig enough, somebodies already looking into it.

pulling rules either don't allow it now or won't if someone starts kicking A$$ with a twin CP3 setup, big injectors and a big turbo

I've been studying my Bosch manuals looking for some information on the various models of the HPCR pump we have to no avail. I've heard the "CP3" term thrown around a bit, but I'm looking for something a little more definitive.

I'm studying up on these pumps, because I've got a strong feeling that Bosch uses the same housing "case" for the 3 pluger radial HPCR pump in many different applications. Similar to how the VP44 had 3 different plunger diameters; 7.0, 7.5, 8.0 on the ISB Cummins engine.

There is also another variable to the CP3 pump. The transmission ratio, as Bosch calls it, can be had in 1/2 or 2/3rd's crankshaft speed. Does anyone know what ratio the Duramax is using?

Assuming we currently use the 1/2 ratio, if we upgraded to the 2/3 ratio we could solve quite a few fuel starvation issues.

The pump would charge the rail up to the commanded rate and then bypass the rest of the increased fuel flow. This would create heat, but would be much better than popping/cracking/sputtering due to extremely low rail pressure.

Or a combination of both increased diamter plungers and increased pump speed ratio for those running big injectors and higher power numbers.

Let's get this figured out :grd:

great post...........would solve lots of issues :ro)

I agree with daver......very interesting disscusion none the less

I know Super Diesel is trying to work on getting this problem fixed. I don't know how long it will take to fix but from what I've heard it's not going to be very easy.

I know of one other person that is also working on it and I'm excited to see when he releases it!!! But he hardley has the time to build the things he's currently got going, so it may take a while. But Like said before, good things happen for those who wait.

If we could fix our high pressure fuel pump issue with just a swap, that would be sweet!!!

Thanks..

I'm just trying to spur some discussion and hopefully get the right guys in in on it. I've been to the pump shop to look at some things, but I guess I'm just going to have to get my hands on a CP3 to really figure it out. I'll try to get one and see what we can do.

I don't really think that our 7.5mm plunger equipped HP pump is up to the task of supplying the higher CID motors such as the 8.3L cummins and larger John Deere CR equipped engines so there must be some kind of option.

I noticed that the Banks DMAX type R motor is using a custom HP pump from Bosch, but it required a new front cover to be mated up.

I'll see what I can find.

Thanks guys.

Bosch has a declaration like: CR/CP 3S3/R110/30-789S
Would anyone happen to know what code the DMAX pump has?
Variables are the R110 which could be R90 or L110 or ....R125.
Not sure what this stands for...but e.g. the
CR/CP3S3/L125/40-789S must rather capable as it is used in 530hp stock
applications.
The CR/CP3S3/R70/20-789S on the other hand is used in 120hp applications....and a L110 is used in a 275hp.

Ask Banks......

I'm sure this big sob is in all of our budgets.

http://www.bankspower.com/DmaxTypeR-pages/engine-program-images/type_r_fluidamper.jpg

Bosch has a declaration like: CR/CP 3S3/R110/30-789S
Would anyone happen to know what code the DMAX pump has?
Variables are the R110 which could be R90 or L110 or ....R125.
Not sure what this stands for...but e.g. the
CR/CP3S3/L125/40-789S must rather capable as it is used in 530hp stock
applications.
The CR/CP3S3/R70/20-789S on the other hand is used in 120hp applications....and a L110 is used in a 275hp.Lennart

I got this info doing a yahoo search....

* The R stands for Drive Direction.
* 110 is the Theoretical pump output in mm3/rev

Hummmm..... I wonder which pump we have in our trucks 70,80, or 90?

R110

R110
Kyle03D

What is the next size up then.... R125???

Maybe, I can't find much info. Don't even know if it is the same physical size to even be able to mount it in the valley.

The R125 is the biggest I could find....fyi, I got the info off of the Bosch page:
http://webapp.bosch.de/toc/
- choose your favorite language
- select article direct search
- search for "CR/CP 3"

Now we're getting somewhere.

I'll see if I can get the Bosch dealer to order one in to check it out..

The Banks pump is physically a larger size, which is why it won't fit in the valley. :(

Yeah, but who knows how big this L125 pump is.. We need to see what pump the ISCe cummins 8.3 is using. Cummins would stick to the same pump style if it all possible. Maybe the 8.3 HPCR pump is the same physical size, yet has increased output. I've got a friend at Cummins here in Indiana, I'll call him tomorrow and get some answers.

man you guys are on top of things. :ro)

just an idea i posted in another thread on this site. what would happen if you restricted the flow on the return line to the tank? would this help with pressure at all? i think it might come at the expense of the reliability of the pump. but if a guy had a electronic valve on there it might work.

if i am all wet just tell me. in the mean time i will keep thinking.

Once the fuel is outside the pump, it's out of the equation. It won't allow it to backflow or put pressure back on the high side of the pump. It's easier to understand when you see a pump diagram in the bosch books.

EDIT ABOVE: Cummins calls the Common Rail C series a QSC now instead of ISCe at least in the AG apps.

Here is an article of the engines that use a CP3 pump with more output than the DMAX:
http://mnold.man-nutzfahrzeuge.de/presse/Digital_PR_Information/d20/d20-2gb.htm
or here:
http://www.man-mn.de/en/trucks/ProductsAndSolutions/TGA/Drive_Train/Motors.jsp
The pump used is a CR/CP3S3/R125/40-789S
The pump costs 1715 EUR + 16% tax that is about $2600 who want´s one?

Well when you figure that a high performance VP44 or P7100 bosch pump costs 2000 and up, 2600 doesn't seem too bad. As long as these will actually fit.

Your next mission Lennart, find out if this R125 pump is the same size as the Dmax pump.

Thanks for the great info.

Brayden they are not the same size or the same type drive. You will need to make custom brackets and such to adapt the R125 into a Duramax.

Well then, my question to you would be. Which of the larger size CP3's is the most similar to ours?