Ok. I know that GMC is not going to put the Duramax in the passenger version. If they are mating them up with out the Allison, could I rebuild my 2000 (7.4L) and replace it with a Duramax or would it be better to get a commercial van and convert it to a passenger van?

__________________________________________________ __________

2004 GMC 2500 HD Duramax, crew cab (no mods yet).
2000 Chevrolet Express - passenger 7.4 L

You could always have an outfitter like Southern Coach dress up one for you.

Thats one way to go, but I don't need that plush of a ride... I want to hold onto some of my money.

Buy a cargo van then upfit it they you want it.

Crap, that is what I thought. I was hopping for "its a pain in the ass but well worth it and everything bolts right up".

Do you have any thoughts on an an upfitter that would not require an arm and leg?

I think you could do it yourself.

That is also possible. But I see potential problems with the conversion from commercial to passenger with all of the seatbelt bolting locations and interior paneling and the like. Why does GM not just put the Duramax into the passenger model!!!

Buy a wrecked passenger van for cheap and rob the interior.

Online I found a 97 2500 savanna hitop conversion with a 6.5 turbo. If i am correct this motor would be an easier swap for your model. As far as seat belt mounting points they are common to the chassis of the vehicle once u get behind the trim. Good luck !!!

Did you guys see the Dmax passenger van on Ebay ? I guess it was a GM company vehicle.

Ok. I know that GMC is not going to put the Duramax in the passenger version. If they are mating them up with out the Allison, could I rebuild my 2000 (7.4L) and replace it with a Duramax or would it be better to get a commercial van and convert it to a passenger van?
With diesel fuel costing at least 35% more than gasoline, completely eliminating the diesel's fuel economy advantage, and considering that the new LY6 6.0 gasser will match or exceed even the towing performance of the detuned (tranny-limited) version of the Duramax available in the vans, why would you want to spend thousands extra to get a Duramax in a van? Without the Allison tranny, and absent a real need to tow more than the 17,000 GCWR of the van with the Duramax, it's pointless, IMO

We have a 6.0 van for one of our employees. The best mileage he could get was 17 mpg empty with a light foot. I just bought a 7x12 enclosed cargo trailer that has maybe 2,000# inside at 72 mph and still got 20 mpg. My van was only $ 25k new. The 4L85E is a very good transmission. Then I have seen mileage as high as 25mpg. My math shows I am way ahead with the Dmax instead of 6.0. But hey this is just a real world comparison within our company so what do I know.

My math shows I am way ahead with the Dmax instead of 6.0. But hey this is just a real world comparison within our company so what do I know.
Your math doesn't add up.
You bought a new 2006 Duramax van for $25k total cost not incl. trade-in?
And how fast were you going while towing that trailer when you got 20mpg? 72mph?!
How is it that you seem to get so much better mileage in your van than the other folks on here get in their pickups, which have less frontal area (less aero drag)?

The average cost of diesel fuel on Flying J's website is 35% higher than gasoline.
And if you exclude a few states(which I for one won't be visiting) where gasoline prices are very high, like California and Arizona, that differential rises to 40% (or more). This is more than enough to offset the fuel savings with a Duramax.

Here's what their prices are in Montana:
Unleaded / Diesel / cost difference
MT Belgrade $1.459 / $2.299 / +58%
MT Billings $1.319 / $2.159 . +64%
MT Butte $1.419 / $2.239 / +58%
MT Great Falls $1.379 / $2.219 / +61%

If you get 15mpg with the gas engine, at today's prices in Montana, you'd have to get an average of about 24mpg with the diesel, just to break even on fuel cost alone, and that's not including the higher initial price & higher maintenance cost of the diesel.

Moreover, the new LY6 also has more power than the old LQ4 or the detuned Duramax.

Your math doesn't add up.
You bought a new 2006 Duramax van for $25k total cost not incl. trade-in?
And how fast were you going while towing that trailer when you got 20mpg?
How is it that you seem to get so much better mileage in your van than the other folks on here get in their pickups, which have less frontal area (less aero drag)?

.

I paid the same for my van, out the door. No one wanted a diesel van I guess as it was on the lot for many months, good for me.
The milage the vans get is better than the trucks, not sure why as like you I thought the squareness would hurt it. I have roof racks with ladders on it all the time and still get very good numbers. Not like he does because I am in town a lot and when on the highway it's 80mph. I see 17 as an average.
I went from a gas van that averaged 10-11 on my day to day like I do now, so I would say I am miles ahead

All the guys I talk to with their gas vans get around 10-12 MPG loaded. I get over 18 MPG Loaded, mostly city driving. I love my diesel, I have driven the gas as well, and the diesel pulls better, all around. I am convinced the diesel motor and 4L85E will outlast the engine/tranny in the gas model.

Just my 2 cents.

I paid the same for my van, out the door. No one wanted a diesel van I guess as it was on the lot for many months, good for me.
Well, $25k is well below actual dealer cost on even a basic 3500 diesel cargo van with few other options. Below is a typical example (one of a couple dozen left-over 2006 vans that I captured data on with the GM vehicle locator in early 2007):

Vehicle Information
Year: 2006
Make: Chevrolet
Model: Express
Model Code:
Merchandising Model Designator: CG33405
Body Style: Cargo Van 3500
Vehicle Type Code: L
VIN: 1GCHG352161150907

Vehicle color options (2)
Exterior: Name: Trim, Cloth, Med Dark Pewter, Family code: TRM, Code: 93G
Interior: Name: Summit White, Family code: CCU, Code: 50U

Vehicle other options (24)
Option code: AK5, Description: Air Bags, Frontal, Dr. and Right Ft. Passenger, Family code: RES
Option code: KG3, Description: Generator, 145 Amp, Family code: GEN
Option code: B38, Description: Floor Covering, Vinyl, Frt & RR, Full Width, Family code: FLC
Option code: YHH, Description: Tire, Rear LT245/75R16E ALS B/W, Family code: RTR
Option code: LLY, Description: Engine Diesel, 8 Cyl, 6.6 L, Duramax, Family code: ENG
Option code: ZHH, Description: Tire, Spare LT245/75R16E ALS B/W, Family code: SPT
Option code: ZY1, Description: Paint, Exterior Solid, Family code: CCC
Option code: 1WT, Description: Base Option Package, Family code: SPP
Option code: XHH, Description: Tire, Front LT245/75R16E ALS B/W, Family code: FTR
Option code: GT4, Description: Axle, Rear: 3.73 Ratio, Family code: RAX
Option code: ZX2, Description: Seating, Driver and Passenger, High-Back, Family code: SAA
Option code: C60, Description: Air Conditioning, Front, Family code: HTR
Option code: DE2, Description: Mirror, O/S LH & RH Direct Control,Folding, Family code: MIR
Option code: C6Y, Description: GVWR 9600 LBS, Family code: GVW
Option code: MN8, Description: 4-Speed Auto Trans, HMD 4L80-E HD, Family code: TRN
Option code: SLM, Description: Sales, Stock Orders, Family code: SPC
Option code: AS5, Description: Seat: Front Bucket Deluxe, Family code: STS
Option code: VK3, Description: License Plate Bracket, Front, Family code: LPF
Option code: E24, Description: Door, Swing-Out Pass. Side 60/40 Split, Family code: DRR
Option code: FE9, Description: Federal Emissions, Family code: CER
Option code: UM7, Description: AM/FM w/Seek, Scan and Clock, Family code: RDO
Option code: ZW9, Description: Standard Body, Family code: BDS
Option code: ZW2, Description: Glass, Rear Doors, Fixed, Family code: GPK
Option code: X88, Description: CONVERSION NAME PLT CHEVROLET, Family code: MAR

Pricing Information
Destination Charge: $800.00 (The amount charged for a sales model to cover the cost of moving the vehicle from the factory to the customer site.)
BaseNet: $22,369.20 (The amount derived by multiplying the Model List Price Amount by the Model Discount Rate.)
OptionsNet: $5,432.00 (The sum of the option net amounts and special instruction invoice amounts.)
Wholesale Floor Plan: $399.45 (The charge for the Wholesale Floorplan amount which is added to the dealer's invoice amount for the sales model.)
Invoice: $29,000.65 (The wholesale invoice amount for a Vehicle.)
MSRP: $32,614.20 (The manufacturer's suggested retail price calculated from base/option price information.)

But, they did have much larger factory cash-back incentives on vans back in 2006 than they do now, and the diesel option was less expensive then as well. Still, $25k out the door is a heck of a price for a van that had a true dealer cost of around $29k.

By the way, it's not just the van's 'boxiness' that contributes to its higher aero drag - not only does it have a higher drag coefficirnt than a pickup truck, it's also taller and has less tumblehome, meaning it has more frontal area too. Part of the difference may be because most of the trucks driven by DP members are 4WD, which reduces fuel economy slightly (EPA Hwy ratings are about 1mpg lower on the 1500 4WD pickups & vans than their 2WD counterparts.)

Well, $25k is well below actual dealer cost on even a basic 3500 diesel cargo van with few other options.When I bought mine in Feb 07' the actual dealer cost for a 2500 D-max van was $24320 before there hold back. I walked out the door with t.t & t for $25671 at 0%. The msrp was just over 32k and there was no incentives on the diesels except 0% for 36 months, 4.9% for 48 and 5.9% for 60. My average fuel mileage is 16.4mpg with 9100# all the time around town doing service calls with a high of 19.9mpg, compared to my 02 with a 5.7 that cost 23k at the time to get 0% and gets 11mpg at 8000#. The D-max is the best value I have seen in a work van. You could always spend 42k and get a Sprinter.:rolleyes:
To find out the actual dealer cost go to consumer reports and spend $12 it will save you a lot of money.

The prices you see above are the exact same prices that show up on the dealer's actual invoice. At the time, I looked up new vehicle pricing for many, many DP members, and the "invoice price" shown by the GM locator was always a little lower than what they were finding using consumer sites like Edmunds or Consumer Reports.

As I mentioned, that info above was pulled from GM's locator system that is (supposedly) available only to dealers. I had log-in codes at the time; that's how I was able look up inventory and prices for many DP members. For example: http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126953 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1509526&postcount=4

Elvis do you own a a Dmax van ? I would guess no. If you would read my sig you would realize my mods. Do you doubt what we paid for our vans ? Like I said before i am going by real world numbers of what we do. Why do you question us ?

And another thing how is the 6.0 torque of 373# is better than my stock 450# ? Please do not question us van guys unless you have substational real world evidence to show us wrong.

Elvis do you own a a Dmax van ? I would guess no.Nope. Have you done any back-to-back tests under controlled conditions? Or are you relaying your mostly subjective anecdotal experience?

I spent a lot of time and effort planning a Quigley 4WD conversion 3500 Duramax van, and even discussed the possibility of swapping the 6-speed Allison with Ben ("Duratothemax"), because I need to tow upwards of 10,000 lb. with the van fully loaded to near max. GVWR. Unfortunately, this is beyond the rated GCWR of a GM 3500 van, which maxes out at 17,000 with a Duramax. The main limiting factor in this is the MT1 4-speed automatic transmission. It's definitely not the rear axle, because a 3500 van comes with a 6,084 lb. rated rear axle also used in a 2500HD pickup. (FYI: the rear axle in the "true" 2500 van - not the AWD 2500 - is rated at 5,360 lb.)

I was a big proponent of the Duramax at first (especially if I had been able to get LBZ-level power), but the more analysis I did, bit by bit, its seeming advantages fell apart. And that's only going to get worse next year, when GM will have to use urea injection to meet the new EPA regs..

I test drove both gas and diesel versions, and thanks to a friendly sales rep (who let me take extended test drives of both gas and diesel 3500 vans) I was even able to load each with over 3,000 lb. of weight. Based on my comparison tests, and published tests like the one referenced below, and factoring in the currently much higher price of diesel fuel, a diesel van currently just doesn't make economic sense.

You also lose well over 600 lbs. of payload with the diesel, because that's how much heavier the Duramax is compared to the 6.0 gas engine.

Why do you question us ?
How dare I do that, huh?
Well, for starters, because the things you report indicate that you seem to be biased in support of your past decisions.

As for mileage, that does vary widely depending on conditions. Having driven a number of different trucks and other vehicles in your part of the country, it wouldn't surprise me to get exceptionally good mileage on one tank here and there. It's amazing how much difference changes in elevation over one tank of fuel can make. I've seen the mileage on a downhill leg of a trip in Wyoming be nearly 50% higher than the uphill leg in the opposite direction.

Also, most people don't actually keep exactly accurate records of all their fuel usage and mileage. I keep scrupulous records, and I do know what I'm talking about here. Maybe you do too, but you seem to be reporting random anecdotal evidence.

And another thing how is the 6.0 torque of 373# is better than my stock 450# ? Please do not question us van guys unless you have substational real world evidence to show us wrong.
I referred to power specifically and performance in general, not torque. But since you mentioned torque, the applicable comparison in vans is between the detuned LMM with a 3.73 axle ratio and a LY6 with a 4.1 axle ratio. In third gear, the LY6 delivers 1,529 lb-ft of torque to the rear tires, while the detuned LMM delivers 1,716 lb-ft, only about 12% more torque than the gasser (which has about 40% more peak horsepower).

The diesel in the van may "feel" to you like it tows much "easier," but actual measured performance is what counts.

Below is a comparison of the new (360hp/380lb-ft) LY6 6.0 gas engine in an HD pickup to the non-detuned (365hp/660lb-ft) LMM pulling a 10,500 lb. trailer up a 7% grade. (this roughly approximates some of the more difficult towing conditions I expect to encounter, although my tow vehicle will also be heavily loaded, unlike their test vehicles):
http://www.pickuptrucks.com/trucks/IMAGES/2007/shootout/mpg/gmspeed7.gif
refs.: http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/200...otout4mpg.html
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3070350&postcount=66

Pulling a trailer uphill to highway speed, the full-power (365/660) LMM managed to beat the (360/380) LY6 gasser by only about 3 mph. BFD! (FWIW, the GM gasser also roughly matched the performance of both the Ford & Dodge diesel pickups.)

Given this relatively small difference between those two, tell me again how it is that you think the detuned (250/460) Duramax in the vans has much, if any, hauling/towing advantage over the LY6 6.0 gas engine...

This is a diesel enthusiast forum, so diesel favoritism and outright bias is not unexpected, but that doesn't mean I have to let that go uncorrected, either.

Well, for starters, because the things you report indicate that you seem to be biased in support of your past decisions.

As for mileage, that does vary widely depending on conditions. Having driven a number of different trucks and other vehicles in your part of the country, it wouldn't surprise me to get exceptionally good mileage on one tank here and there. It's amazing how much difference changes in elevation over one tank of fuel can make. I've seen the mileage on a downhill leg of a trip in Wyoming be nearly 50% higher than the uphill leg in the opposite direction.

Also, most people don't actually keep exactly accurate records of all their fuel usage and mileage. I keep scrupulous records, and I do know what I'm talking about here. Maybe you do too, but you seem to be reporting random anecdotal evidence.

I have seen nothing biased or random out of anyones responses in here. I too switched from a gasser to the dmax. The gasser was getting no more than 12mpgs combined and never higher than 15 all highway. Bought the dmax loaded my equipment and I with 50,000 miles and the same driving my mpgs are around 17 combined and as high as 22 all eway from a loaded all stock van. This is consistant milage with accurate records. My best milage so far was even on winter fuel last year on a trip back from Nova Scotia in Jan.

Towing my camper with the gasser, keeping under 65 I was doing good to get 10mpgs. With the dmax van doing 65-70 its up to 14-15.

Sure the diesel in the comparision only got 3mph better, but you know in the last year I drove my 2 dmax s combined over 100,000 miles. ALOT of it with a trailer. How many times did I go uphill from a stop to highway speeds at full power with or without a trailer, 0.

Don't woorry, I will correct myself, I have seen biased and random reports in here.

As for fuel prices. Look beyond today. When I bought my van, diesel was cheaper than gas. Diesel is not always more expensive. Price differences between gas and diesel go up and down, always have always will.


Hope your gasser works out good for you.

I referred to power specifically and performance in general, not torque. The diesel in the van may "feel" to you like it tows much "easier," but actual measured performance is what counts.

Below is a comparison of the new (360hp/380 ft-lb) LY6 6.0 gas engine in an HD pickup to the non-detuned (365hp/660ft-lb) LMM pulling a 10,500 lb. trailer up a 7% grade. (this roughly approximates some of the more difficult towing conditions I expect to encounter, although my tow vehicle will also be heavily loaded, unlike their test vehicles):
http://www.pickuptrucks.com/trucks/IMAGES/2007/shootout/mpg/gmspeed7.gif
refs.: http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/200...otout4mpg.html
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3070350&postcount=66

Pulling a trailer uphill to highway speed, the full-power (365/660) LMM managed to beat the LY6 gasser by only about 3 mph. BFD! (FWIW, the GM gasser also roughly matched the performance of both the Ford & Dodge diesel pickups.)

Given this relatively small difference between those two, tell me again how it is that you think the detuned (250/460) Duramax in the vans has much, if any, hauling/towing advantage over the LY6 6.0 gas engine...

This is a diesel enthusiast forum, so diesel favoritism and outright bias is not unexpected, but that doesn't mean I have to let that go uncorrected, either.

How many times did I go uphill from a stop to highway speeds at full power with or without a trailer, 0.
That is, however, the exact type of situation where the diesel's performance advantage is supposedly most pronounced. Any time you have to stop (for fuel or whatever) in mountain country, and then have to get back up to speed on the highway, you can encounter this type of situation. If you only drive in the flatlands, you have even less need for a diesel's potentially greater pulling power.

Towing my camper with the gasser, keeping under 65 I was doing good to get 10mpgs. With the dmax van doing 65-70 its up to 14-15. So, in your experience, even in heavily laden towing conditions, where the diesel's performance and efficiency advantage is potentially greater, today's fuel price differential nearly or completely offsets the diesel's fuel economy advantage... before even counting the diesel's higher purchase and maintenance costs.


BTW, in most parts of the country, diesel fuel has been higher than gasoline since before 2006, although not to the same extent it has been for the past year.

That is, however, the type of situation where the diesel's advantage is supposedly more pronounced. Any time you have to stop (for fuel or whatever) in mountain country, and then have to get back up to speed on the highway, you encounter this type of situation. If you only drive in flat parts of the country, you have even less need for a diesel's potentially greater pulling power.

BTW, in most parts of the country, diesel fuel has been higher than gasoline since before 2006, although not to the same extebt it has been for the past year.

Yeah, you have to get back to highway speeds, but under full power?!:eek:
Man, I hope that gasser holds up for you
I'd like to hear back about what kind of mpgs you are seeing accelerating like that, full power, up hill, with a load.

Yeah, you have to get back to highway speeds, but under full power?!
So, you'd rather they test time to distance , or speed over distance, at part throttle?
And yeah, if you're pulling out going uphill with 10k behind you, and it's going to take over a quarter-mile to get up to something close to highway speed, and you've got traffic bearing down on you from behind, most people are going to put the pedal to the metal.

So I seem to be reporting random anecdotal evidence ? Ok. Dad and I have been running GM cargo vans for 18 years with each of us putting on an average 50,000-60,000 miles a year. So that works out to be about lets say 1.8 million miles between the both of us. You can show all the charts you want but I will side to what I have and not have done. Yes we keep very good records because the I more spend means the lower our profit margins are.

Yes we keep very good records because the I more spend means the lower our profit margins are.
So it sounds like, since you must be keeping a log, that rather than saying 'about this, or as much as that,' it would be very easy for you to simply look up the total mileage to date since the DMax 3500 van in your signature was new and the total gallons of diesel fuel used (along with the cost), and let us know exactly what the lifetime average fuel economy and average fuel cost is, correct?

2006 3500 Dmax Express Van Standard wheel base. 49,000 miles. Out of service for another transmission repair 01/01/09...... 05Jan09 Dealer called, ordering ANOTHER whole trans.
What's the problem with the tranny that you're out of service with another repair at under 50k miles?

Sure no problem just pm me your address so I send you bill for my time.

very easy for me too. I've got a small notebook in the van that miles gallons and cost get recorded in, along with oil, filters, tires and rotations, etc get recorded in. going thru it now for tax time. different milage deduction for the first half and second half of the year. and yup I know what my miles were on june 30 and July 1.
I would like to hear back from you after 50,000 miles or so of full throttle uphill loaded take offs. don't worry, I'm sure the wrecker they send to tow you will be a diesel.
I'd also like to know where all these 'most people...' are you keep mentioning. 'most people floor it when they get on the highway with 10,000 lbs behind them'?!?!
'most people don't keep accurate records'. What???? Last I knew the dmax was only offered in the cargo van. so who are the 'most people' that you are talking to in here? guys that are contractors of some form running their own business keeping track of every dime spent and every mile driven.

Sure no problem just pm me your address so I send you bill for my time.
Nice cop out, though it does provide further evidence that you are a pretender. If you kept the records you claimed, lifetime average fuel economy would take all of about 30 seconds, provided that you're using one or both of those modern innovations known as a "computer" or a "spreadsheet"


As for you, "lotsofmiles" - that was a nice effort at covering your tracks by changing your signature in an effort to hide the evidence of your tranny problems.

"lotsofmiles" new signature (after 12:18PM today):

2007 3500 Classic LBZ CC LB, 140,000 miles

462hp/930tq on stock tune with a shot of h20/meth
Best MPG (so far) 26.2

2006 3500 Dmax Express Van Standard wheel base. 49,000 miles.

2004 Airstream Safari
____________________________


Too late though. In case you didn't notice, my previous capture of your signature is still there for anyone to see:


"lotsofmiles" old signature (before 12:18PM today):

2007 3500 Classic LBZ CC LB, 140,000 miles

462hp/930tq on stock tune with a shot of h20/meth
Best MPG (so far) 26.2

2006 3500 Dmax Express Van Standard wheel base. 49,000 miles. Out of service for another transmission repair 01/01/09...... 05Jan09 Dealer called, ordering ANOTHER whole trans.

2004 Airstream Safari
___________________________


So by doing that you've just revealed another clue about your lack of credibility.

that's not why I changed my sig. if you noticed I changed truck sig to. What am I trying to hide from you about my truck?!? My credibility an issue, yea ok.
you must think pretty highly of yourself to think something I did was just for you.
I have been vocal about my tranny problems in this forum and others, not trying to hide anything from you. do a search and you'll find more about my tranny issues. You'll also see that mine isn't the norm on these. I'm what seems to be one of a few. as I said in another thread I think there are issues with SOME of these trannies. espically since my original was defective from the beginning and the general won't give me another NEW trans, only a rebuild, that they pay someone else to rebuild. and they don't pay much. I've asked for a new trans as this would probably solve my issues. But instead they are getting me a rebuild.

this is funny. looked at the time from elvis when I changed my sig. checked the call log on my phone...

3 minutes after the dealer called me on my van I changed my sig....

yup, just for you elvis boy.go ahead and look back to the last 3 or 4 times I changed my sig tell me that lessens my credibility too cause I'm hiding something from you. I changed my avatar a couple times in the past few months too, changed my garage pics too, anything else I'm hiding from you?oh crap!!!! I edited this post, must be hiding something there too.

Elvis you need to watch your typing. I will not tolerate you disrespecting me or my friends on this site. I am not a pretender or coping out. End of discussion.

that's not why I changed my sig. if you noticed I changed truck sig to. What am I trying to hide from you about my truck?!?
I asked what your tranny problems were, and instead of answering, within the hour, the evidence of it in your signature disappears. If that's just a coincidence, so be it. But your most recent posts look like damage control after I called your bluff.

Elvis you need to watch your typing. I will not tolerate you disrespecting me or my friends on this site. I am not a pretender or coping out. End of discussion.
Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over until you come up with your lifetime fuel economy stats. Until that happens, my previous assessment stands.

As far as what you will "tolerate" ! Here we go again with another variation of "how dare I" question your claim.

Here's the deal: Put up or shut up. Until then, I feel duly entitled to be skeptical of some your claims.

Hey stupid, lotsofmiles has started threads concerning is transmission issues. He has never tried to hide anything. Do a little research before you go spouting off. Why do I need to share my business records with you ?

Put up or shut up, HMMMMM

Here you go elvis boy, go ahead and call the number from my phones incoming call log.
Tell me it wasnt the Chevy dealer that called me 3 minutes before I changed my sig. Then pm a mod and call sprint to verify why the call log says 1:15 and the sig change you copied says 12:18. As I said 3 minutes after the dealer called, I changed my sig. Had I not had the computer on at the time I probably would have waited till this evening.

I really dont want an apology from you, but if you feel the need, you can post it in this thread.

Thanks Shop, I think you had it right, end of discussion.

On Edit, please dont call and waste their time, do an internet search, you'll match it up. And wow, put somone on the ignore list and they and all their posts are gone from my screen.

I referred to power specifically and performance in general, not torque. But since you mentioned torque, the applicable comparison in vans is between the detuned LMM with a 3.73 axle ratio and a LY6 with a 4.1 axle ratio. In third gear, the LY6 delivers 1,529 lb-ft of torque to the rear tires, while the detuned LMM delivers 1,716 lb-ft, only about 12% more torque than the gasser (which has about 40% more peak horsepower).

The diesel in the van may "feel" to you like it tows much "easier," but actual measured performance is what counts.
If you are going to compare at least use the same gear ratio, 4.10s are available for the D-max van from the factory. The D-max van corrected for the same gear ratio puts out close to 1,886 lbs-ft to the rear tires using your figures for a difference of 23% more torque than the gasser.



The prices you see above are the exact same prices that show up on the dealer's actual invoice. At the time, I looked up new vehicle pricing for many, many DP members, and the "invoice price" shown by the GM locator was always a little lower than what they were finding using consumer sites like Edmunds or Consumer Reports.

As I mentioned, that info above was pulled from GM's locator system that is (supposedly) available only to dealers. I had log-in codes at the time; that's how I was able look up inventory and prices for many DP members. For example: http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126953 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1509526&postcount=4

Please, Please, Please, tell me you actually believe that "Dealer Invoice" is what you think dealer actually pays for the vehicle. I need a Real Good Laugh.:idiot:
:stirthepo

If you are going to compare at least use the same gear ratio, 4.10s are available for the D-max van from the factory. The D-max van corrected for the same gear ratio puts out close to 1,886 lbs-ft to the rear tires using your figures for a difference of 23% more torque than the gasser.

The Duramax is available from the factory only with a 3.73 axle ratio in a cargo van (or a pickup truck for that matter). Verify that here: http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/dmdindex.htm or in the attached 2006 & 2007 order books, where you will find this statement:
"Rear axle, 4.10 ratio
1 - Available with (LR4) Engine, Vortec 4800 V8 SFI and (LQ4) Engine, Vortec 6000 V8 SFI. Not available with (LLY) Engine, Duramax 6600 Turbo Diesel V8."
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=78807&stc=1&d=1231984371
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=78807&stc=1&d=1231984371

Please, Please, Please, tell me you actually believe that "Dealer Invoice" is what you think dealer actually pays for the vehicle. I need a Real Good Laugh.It's nice that you are so easily amused, but nowhere here or elsewhere did I ever state that the price listed as "Invoice" in the GM vehicle locator was the final price that any dealer actually pays after holdback and other dealer incentives. The fact that I had access to the GM "dealer-only" locator system should have been a clue, but I guess you overlooked that while you were busy finding those emoticons, only to discover that the one named "idiot" refers to yourself.

Why do I need to share my business records with you ?You don't, nor did I ask for your "business records." But you did state that your fuel economy claims were substantiated by accurate fuel & mileage records, which for some reason you seem reluctant to share. This continues to suggest that your fuel economy claim is more of a subjective impression that you have rather than a hard statistic fact.

Curiously, after a couple of pages of increasingly argumentative and defensive posts from both you and "lotsofmiles" what is still lacking is the data you both claimed to carefully keep, something that if it actually existed, should be at your fingertips.

I changed my mind, I do want an apology

I thought this thread was originally started my someone wanting a Dmax passenger van ?

look at elvis other posts, he sure does know. Anything and everything.
I took the attachment of my call log off, figured the receptionist at the dealership didnt need to be bothered. 6 people saw it, probably 6 more than needed to (sorry chevy dealer), and I dont really need to prove anything to elvis boy.

Well I am glad I have the diesel van, for what I paid, the milage and power it has I am miles ahead of a gassser. I am pro diesel by choice though:D

I eat crow on the 4.10 gears. I could of swore that it was an option when I bought mine.
but... on the invoice price your statement:
" I looked up new vehicle pricing for many, many DP members, and the "invoice price" shown by the GM locator was always a little lower than what they were finding using consumer sites like Edmunds or Consumer Reports."
and
"Well, $25k is well below actual dealer cost on even a basic 3500 diesel cargo van with few other options. Below is a typical example (one of a couple dozen left-over 2006 vans that I captured data on with the GM vehicle locator in early 2007):

Vehicle Information
Year: 2006
Make: Chevrolet
Model: Express
Model Code:
Merchandising Model Designator: CG33405
Body Style: Cargo Van 3500
Vehicle Type Code: L
VIN: 1GCHG352161150907

Vehicle color options (2)
Exterior: Name: Trim, Cloth, Med Dark Pewter, Family code: TRM, Code: 93G
Interior: Name: Summit White, Family code: CCU, Code: 50U

Vehicle other options (24)
Option code: AK5, Description: Air Bags, Frontal, Dr. and Right Ft. Passenger, Family code: RES
Option code: KG3, Description: Generator, 145 Amp, Family code: GEN
Option code: B38, Description: Floor Covering, Vinyl, Frt & RR, Full Width, Family code: FLC
Option code: YHH, Description: Tire, Rear LT245/75R16E ALS B/W, Family code: RTR
Option code: LLY, Description: Engine Diesel, 8 Cyl, 6.6 L, Duramax, Family code: ENG
Option code: ZHH, Description: Tire, Spare LT245/75R16E ALS B/W, Family code: SPT
Option code: ZY1, Description: Paint, Exterior Solid, Family code: CCC
Option code: 1WT, Description: Base Option Package, Family code: SPP
Option code: XHH, Description: Tire, Front LT245/75R16E ALS B/W, Family code: FTR
Option code: GT4, Description: Axle, Rear: 3.73 Ratio, Family code: RAX
Option code: ZX2, Description: Seating, Driver and Passenger, High-Back, Family code: SAA
Option code: C60, Description: Air Conditioning, Front, Family code: HTR
Option code: DE2, Description: Mirror, O/S LH & RH Direct Control,Folding, Family code: MIR
Option code: C6Y, Description: GVWR 9600 LBS, Family code: GVW
Option code: MN8, Description: 4-Speed Auto Trans, HMD 4L80-E HD, Family code: TRN
Option code: SLM, Description: Sales, Stock Orders, Family code: SPC
Option code: AS5, Description: Seat: Front Bucket Deluxe, Family code: STS
Option code: VK3, Description: License Plate Bracket, Front, Family code: LPF
Option code: E24, Description: Door, Swing-Out Pass. Side 60/40 Split, Family code: DRR
Option code: FE9, Description: Federal Emissions, Family code: CER
Option code: UM7, Description: AM/FM w/Seek, Scan and Clock, Family code: RDO
Option code: ZW9, Description: Standard Body, Family code: BDS
Option code: ZW2, Description: Glass, Rear Doors, Fixed, Family code: GPK
Option code: X88, Description: CONVERSION NAME PLT CHEVROLET, Family code: MAR

Pricing Information
Destination Charge: $800.00 (The amount charged for a sales model to cover the cost of moving the vehicle from the factory to the customer site.)
BaseNet: $22,369.20 (The amount derived by multiplying the Model List Price Amount by the Model Discount Rate.)
OptionsNet: $5,432.00 (The sum of the option net amounts and special instruction invoice amounts.)
Wholesale Floor Plan: $399.45 (The charge for the Wholesale Floorplan amount which is added to the dealer's invoice amount for the sales model.)
Invoice: $29,000.65 (The wholesale invoice amount for a Vehicle.)
MSRP: $32,614.20 (The manufacturer's suggested retail price calculated from base/option price information.)

But, they did have much larger factory cash-back incentives on vans back in 2006 than they do now, and the diesel option was less expensive then as well. Still, $25k out the door is a heck of a price for a van that had a true dealer cost of around $29k."

Your words not mine. I guess you can eat also.:Moon:


I have used the Consumer Report site many times over the years and every time it has been considerably lower by percentage than what you are showing even after adding in rebates. Paying the $$$ for the report on the vehicle saves major $$$. Not just going to the site and looking up vehicles for free.