Would like to try this combo. Seems some members have no probs with it and it works well. Any other mods needed for this setup? Where can I get the lift pumps and pickup? Price?
I have searched but can't seem to find where to get it.

Would like to try this combo. Seems some members have no probs with it and it works well. Any other mods needed for this setup? Where can I get the lift pumps and pickup? Price?
I have searched but can't seem to find where to get it.
The Billet Pickup is available here: www.socaldiesel.com (http://www.socaldiesel.com) :D

check my sig.......

2 FM 100's... They work perfect.

trippin not to bash your product in anyway but i heard that the billet pickup was lettin people run out of fuel around 1/4 tankor something to that nature. j/w if it was a problem w/ beta models and is fixed now or what

The FASS System was returning fuel into the tank via the filler neck not in the way the stock pickup was designed to return fuel.......Trippins mod just exaggerated the problem. The pickup works great it was the FASS system that was the problem.

T;) NY

trippin not to bash your product in anyway but i heard that the billet pickup was lettin people run out of fuel around 1/4 tankor something to that nature. j/w if it was a problem w/ beta models and is fixed now or what

Well, I have <1/8 a tank right now and mine runs great.

trippin not to bash your product in anyway but i heard that the billet pickup was letting people run out of fuel around 1/4 tankor something to that nature. j/w if it was a problem w/ beta models and is fixed now or whatRyan,

The problem with my truck was with the Air Dog L/P, NOT with Trippin's billet pickup. I drove my truck for a few months with only Trippin's P/U and I had no problem taking the needle all the way to EMPTY.

Like all of Trippin's products the billet pickup would be an excellent addition to your truck. :thumb:

A Fass problem for sure. I just ran mine down to almost empty, 2 litres left and no problems. The Fass will create the same symptoms on a stock truck.

trippin not to bash your product in anyway but i heard that the billet pickup was lettin people run out of fuel around 1/4 tankor something to that nature. j/w if it was a problem w/ beta models and is fixed now or whatRyan,
That's a really good question! The billet pickup substantially reduces the restriction on the suction side of the system, stock or lift pumped. Stated another way, it makes the fuel system more efficient at pulling fuel out of the tank.

The pickup is housed in a canister that has a one way check valve in the bottom. At fuel levels below 1/2 tank all the fuel must run through this valve. At levels above 1/2 tank fuel can spill into the top of the canister. The canister's function is to keep the pickup surrounded by fuel at all times, during acceleration, braking, uphill, downhill, etc.

The problem arises at fuel levels below 1/2 tank, when the fuel demand exeeds the check valve's ability to supply the pickup and the level is not high enough to spill over the top. A pump that only sends part of it's output to the engine, and bypasses the rest to the filler neck, is actually placing a higher demand on the check valve than what is needed to supply the engine.

Ryan,

with the old preperator and guy's pickup i had the 1/2 tank blues.. now that i've switched to the returnless super diesel setup i can run it down to E.. i just put 25.8 gallons in my 26 gallon tank w/ no problems...

Has anyone determine if this will work with a supertank? (CC SB 4x4)

Sorry if this is re-hashing...

Out of curiosity, why 2 instead of 1? Is it just for double-filtration or is there a benefit of running 2 lift pumps? I am thinking about running a single FM100 to replace my secondary racor I have now ... primarily to get a LP and still have filtration. What psi does the FM100 provide?



2 FM 100's... They work perfect.

volume.

So the elements are too small? Smaller then a Racor R60? Does volume just determine how often the filters have to be changed? the FM100 6" filters look big enough ...or at least as big as a Racor R60. Not so? I was hoping to be able to run a single FM100 with a 5 micron filter but sounds this wouldn't be a good idea?

Well one thing is for sure, The FASS and Preporator pump plenty of fuel pressure and fuel volume.

They have a built in regulator and only send fuel to the return neck when the the pump output is exceeding the engine demand. So for the FASS or Prep to send fuel to the filler neck then they were pumping plenty of extra fuel. Trippins pick up just made matters worse by allowing the pump access to even more fuel only to send it to the filler neck. So really, with the FASS or Prep Trippins pickup is not needed. It reduces vacum but I dont think those heavy duty gear pumps really give a darn.

I am guessing your operating pressure and your programing have a lot to say about this issue as well. If your pressue is set real low, the FASS and Prep will send more fuel to the filler neck and less fuel to the engine/return line. If your pressure is set real high, more fuel will be sent to the engine and retruned via the factory return line refilling the basket.

Also the needs of your engine determine how much fuel will actually come back down the factory return line to help refill the basket from within, when below 1/2 tank.

So the question is, will a giant program like the TTS Extreeme or Quad 215 or VA 215 drain the basket? I mean if the engine demand is greater then the flow rate into the basket it will run empty regardless of whos pickup or whos lift pump.

Anyone have a problem draining the basket below 1/2 tank with only the factory return? Then again how many extra filters you have installed acting as a reserve will effect this as well.

So basically the guy running 1 filter with a lift pump, and a giant program stands the best chance of draining the basket. Maybe the basket lets in enough fuel? Thats why I am asking is the basket still a problem?

The volume issue is not with the filter but the pumps ability to supply fuel in the FM100, so by running two you just about double the volume that canbe supplied to the engine when needed.

Sorry Bronco but as stated before the problem is with the FASS or Preporator type fuel system. I have seen the same problems with a stock pickup! Now I will admit the new pickup makes it worse but never the less the problem is caused by the return type fuel pump system. The perfect example is Diesel Power's truck, Take the Preporator out and ditch the return fuel system and problem solved with the new pickup in place. So since the bigger pickup works fine in the same basket, do you still really believe the problem is the pickup or the basket?

Bronco poses an interesting question, I have a Nicktane CAT filter which I beleive is a 1 litre or 2 quart filter....never bothered to know what size it is, plus the factory filter. with a lift pump supplying the system does the filter act as a resevoir ????

I need to get some more TECH II Snap Shots as well as my fuel pressure gauge installed..........

Bronco
I can't stand it anymore. Baskets have millions of holes you ninny. They can not hold liquid for very long. It is a BUCKET. I have also watched your stupid posts and you have no clue as far as the fuel system. sdaver was correct when he called you a post whore. What have you tested given the fact that you are not capable of testing anything. You like to read your own posts don't you. Get a life dude.

Bronco poses an interesting question, I have a Nicktane CAT filter which I beleive is a 1 litre or 2 quart filter....never bothered to know what size it is, plus the factory filter. with a lift pump supplying the system does the filter act as a resevoir ????

I need to get some more TECH II Snap Shots as well as my fuel pressure gauge installed..........
Think about it people................ where is the pickup, before or after the extra filters! The added filter makes no difference the pump sucks the bucket dry because the return type pump is wasting the fuel by returning it to the tank when not needed! Does anyone think about what happens when you pump the fuel and build pressure then send it back into the tank? Every FASS or Preporator system I've seen has two more filters as part of the kit and guess what it does...............................

I guess that theory won't hold fuel...............or water :D

Sorry Bronco but as stated before the problem is with the FASS or Preporator type fuel system. I have seen the same problems with a stock pickup! Now I will admit the new pickup makes it worse but never the less the problem is caused by the return type fuel pump system. The perfect example is Diesel Power's truck, Take the Preporator out and ditch the return fuel system and problem solved with the new pickup in place. So since the bigger pickup works fine in the same basket, do you still really believe the problem is the pickup or the basket?

Dieseltech I think we are trying to say the same thing. So lets see if we can get this straigntened out.

I never said Trippins pickup was the problem. I did say that Trippins pickup made the FASS/Prep problems worse and was not needed with those style pumps. I never commented as to whether it was needed or not on the factroy return style pumps currently being discussed. I am sure time will prove if that reduction in vacum = a needed increase in flow? It might just allow more fuel to be returned via the factory return line. Or maybe the engine will use that extra flow, only time will tell.

The question I posed was, is the basket being sucked dry with a big program and a lift pump? So in technical terms, is the engine demand greater then the return flow+ basket inlet flow?


Now if you are saying the fuel dropping down the filler neck is causing some other type of problem I am not understanding, please explain. I did ask that question before toyou in another thread and you hinted to the fact that is more related to the basket being sucked dry.

Also the question about extra filters acting as a reserve is true. I was refering to the current setup of a lift pump and extra filtration after it. If the basket was to drain, the line would still have 2 full filters to get it down the 1/4 mile.

The fuel is sucked from the basket via the feed line and returned to the basket via the return line..........The FASS alters the fuel return

We are not saying anything close to the same thing!

The problem is the FASS or Preporator type system, period. It pulls way to much fuel and pumps it up to pressure then returns it into the filler neck at low engine speeds(low demand). Since it's pulling it out faster than the bucket can get fuel into itself once below ~1/2 tank the bucket runs dry and the system begins pushing air upto the engine which causes it to stall. It does it with a stock pickup so get over your belief that the FASS or Preporator is OK.......... they are not. They pump way to much at low load and not enough at high load ..................alot of money for something that does little to no good for this application. I think it's time for you to do some testing for yourself as you cannot seem to get it threw your head and maybe once you've done it you will understand. Also what happens when you bring something under pressure then send it back to the tank and do it again and again and again..................

Thanks for the clarification Diesel Tech. So 2 FM100's are needed to supply enough fuel volume to the engine ...under what conditions? What is considered "enough" volume?


Is there a magic number people with a known setup should be striving for? I know there are a lot of guys trying different options/pump setups ...Holley's, Carters, SD's dual setup, FM100's, FASS, Perp, etc and a few people working on kits to be available at some future time.

There are also people like me that have a need for a LP setup now. I have spent hours parsing/reading hundreds of posts like I'm sure many have done and yet there still doesn't seem to be a proven setup. Am I right in saying the "perfect" setup simply does not exist today? If not, what is it? :) All I'm looking for is the best setup available for my application that I will be happy with.



The volume issue is not with the filter but the pumps ability to supply fuel in the FM100, so by running two you just about double the volume that canbe supplied to the engine when needed.

Also the question about extra filters acting as a reserve is true. I was refering to the current setup of a lift pump and extra filtration after it. If the basket was to drain, the line would still have 2 full filters to get it down the 1/4 mile.
So what do you think happens to the air bubble that came in to the pump? Do you think it just sits still and goes nowhere. Ever looked at a water dispenser in an office? See what happens to the air bubble when you fill a few cups of water out of it. The bubble travels right threw the fluid and upto the engine and if it's big enough it will stall.

There are also people like me that have a need for a LP setup now. I have spent hours parsing/reading hundreds of posts like I'm sure many have done and yet there still doesn't seem to be a proven setup. Am I right in saying the "perfect" setup simply does not exist today?
And we have a winner. Todate there is nothing that I know of that will do the job in all conditions with a big program.............................. but there will be :D

Ok let me give it a shot,

The check valve on the bottom of the bucket looks tiny to me, and will not allow enuf fuel into the basket as the high volume FASS and Air dog can pump out.

Had my FASS on a few days now and with the stock pickup still on the truck I could hear the FASS pump cavatating (sucking air) when I got down to about 1/3 tank of fuel. The truck was still running but I don't know for how much longer as I ran and filled it back up.

So the FASS and Air dog or any other high volume return pump will not work below 1/2 or so tank of fuel. FASS even mentions it in the instructions, of course I saw that after I purchased it. I have the 150gph pump maybe the 95gph pump is not as bad.

So the only answer for us high volume guys is either a redesigned basket that will allow a lot more fuel into it or a seperate draw tube down to the bottom of the tank to be used as a new pickup. And a seperate return tube to the bottom of the tank from the high volume pump, which is what I plan on doing with my new Supertank when it arrives, unless anyone (Diesel Tech, Trippin) has any better ideas.

And I think this is a example of another GM cost cutting measure. If the tanks had baffles and had a intank fuel pump none of this talk would be going on, simply replace the intank pump with a high performance one like all the gassers do and problem is solved.

Bronco,
I don't think that a big HP program that demands a lot more fuel and a returnless pump even with Trippin's larger pickup is enuf to suck the basket dry under extreme conditions if that is what your asking.

DD

flame suit on and ready

If you intend on doing what you have posted.........how will you keep the air from being sucked up without a basket...........if you want to relocate the tube.

If your new large tank has no baffle then the fuel will slosh around, possible to allow air to be ingested.

If the pump recirculates fuel and keeps pressurizing it and then it depressurizes on the return will increase in temperature and wil it develope even more air bubbles, precisely what the pump is supposed to do, remove air.

The basket in the stock tank is limited by the size of the hole in the top of the tank as it is part of the sender unit/pickup assembly.......

So, we need a pump that won't increase the pressure too much, supply enough volume to support demand, not suck the basket dry and allow you to run your tank down to almost empty.


<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 535850" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>Diesel Tech</TD><TD class=alt2>Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by tophog
There are also people like me that have a need for a LP setup now. I have spent hours parsing/reading hundreds of posts like I'm sure many have done and yet there still doesn't seem to be a proven setup. Am I right in saying the "perfect" setup simply does not exist today?
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

And we have a winner. Todate there is nothing that I know of that will do the job in all conditions with a big program.............................. but there will be http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Looks to me like someone might have the answer..........

I guess we will all have to wait and see...............:cool:

We are not saying anything close to the same thing!

The problem is the FASS or Preporator type system, period. and pumps it up to pressure then returns it into the filler neck at low engine speeds(low demand). Since it's pulling it out faster than the bucket can get fuel into itself once below ~1/2 tank the bucket runs dry and the system begins pushing air upto the engine which causes it to stall. It does it with a stock pickup so get over your belief that the FASS or Preporator is OK.......... they are not. They pump way to much at low load and not enough at high load ..................alot of money for something that does little to no good for this application. I think it's time for you to do some testing for yourself as you cannot seem to get it threw your head and maybe once you've done it you will understand. Also what happens when you bring something under pressure then send it back to the tank and do it again and again and again..................
Dieseltech,

My original post in this thread, I said the Fass Prep pump plenty of fuel. In the quote above, you said "It pulls way to much fuel " so we are saying the same thing. that was my original point. The pumps are big. The are so big, they supply the engine, and drain the basket. That takes a big pump to suck the basket dry. I understand that it does no good to have that much fuel going down the filler neck. So in essence the pumps are no good in there current state, because they drain the basket witch altimently strarves the engine.

Now in the case of diesel dragon, he alterd the basket/pickup. So he will have a great big pump that never runs out of supply. The same modification could be done to the Trippin pickup. Just put a TEE in the pickup and run it to a secondary pickup. So the big pump would alwys have plenty of fuel to suck from.

I do understand that these pumps are too big in stock pickup configuratation. If you read in the ENTRAINED AIR THREAD that I started over 1 year ago, you will see I reached a point where I recomeded everybody wait for the smaller airdog 80. Why do yo thik I said that? Charlie new the 135 A was to big as well. That is why he will exchange your 135 for an 80 free of charge. Now why ONE person has 80 problems? Isolated event at this point.

I am simply asking, is the factory basket inlet flow along with the factory return flow suffecient to supply a large program?

How you have come to the conclusion the FASS/PRep flow too much fuel at low engine demand and not enough at high demand is beyond me. It seems that if they are big enough to suck the basket dry, they are big enough to meet the semands of the engine. Remeber if the engine needs the fuel, the fillerneck return line will CLOSE!, sending all fuel to the engine. If the return is not closing, then the return ball and spring are defective. They can be replaced as well. I have suggested the use of a higher quality returnregulator and throwing away the spring and ball.

What happened to you and Nick claiming the trippin pickup and Prep were good for 140 ft/lbs of TQ? seems like the pump must be pretty big. You have to admit, those pumps flow alot of fuel volume even at higher pressures. Thats my original point. I am not trying to justify the use of the Prep 135 A or the FASS. I mean come on, they were desingned for class 8 over the road trucks. Those rigs make more power than even your Extreme.

You seem to keep missing the point, any pump that will supply pressure at about 5 psi to the CP3 pump will increase the power output! Just because we were using a FASS has nothing to do with it! How the H E L L do you think Charlie new they were too big in the first place, I called him. The pump is not to big under High load it's just to big under low load because of the return. In your own post you said that they donot completely close the return are you now changing that statement! You seem to be good at typing on the keyboard and terrible at get up out of the chair and doing some test work. You bought pumps over a year ago then returned them, how about getting something installed and doing some testing then report your findings. Until then believe what you want as it does no good to try and tell you what we've found by testing. Once you remove the sender from the tank maybe, just maybe, you might understand.

If you intend on doing what you have posted.........how will you keep the air from being sucked up without a basket...........if you want to relocate the tube.


If your new large tank has no baffle then the fuel will slosh around, possible to allow air to be ingested.


I plan on mounting a draw tube down to within an inch of the tank bottom, it may not allow me to run to empty but it should give me more range than the stock pickup which starts to die at 1/2 tank. And with the Supertank it will give me even more range, if I'm lucky I can use 45 or 50 gallons out of the 60 gallon tank with the pump on, and then I can always turn the pump off and get the last 10 gallons or so as the pump assemblly is a flow thru design and the engine will still run with the pump off. I wouldn't want to have the stock pump pull fuel thru the 2 filters and fuel/water seperator plus the factory fuel filter all the time but if I can get to the gas station to fill up thats good enuf.


If the pump recirculates fuel and keeps pressurizing it and then it depressurizes on the return will increase in temperature and wil it develope even more air bubbles, precisely what the pump is supposed to do, remove air.


As long as the pump is doing it's job of removing the air from the fuel thats going to the supply line that feeds the engine, thats all I care about.



The basket in the stock tank is limited by the size of the hole in the top of the tank as it is part of the sender unit/pickup assembly.......


Yes the basket is limited in it's circumfrence, but I think the main problem is that the check valve that's on the bottom is not big enuf, if it were larger then the basket could resupply it self with fuel quicker and it wouldn't drain out. Remember even with the stock pickup and a stock HP setting if you get low on fuel and uncover the check valve even if you have 10 gallons of fuel in the tank and now your only have the fuel in the basket to supply the engine and the basket is only about a quart big if that, the engine will suck air eventually, so the hill your going up or down better not be too steep or to long or your all done.

So, we need a pump that won't increase the pressure too much, supply enough volume to support demand, not suck the basket dry and allow you to run your tank down to almost empty.


The only way to not suck the basket dry is with a returnless pump, and the big question after that is how big is the check valve and at what HP point is the check valve too small, will the valve supply enuf fuel to support 500 hp, 600 hp, 700hp, I don't know. But if you have a returnless pump and only race with more than 1/2 tank and dont demand a lot of fuel with less than 1/2 tank you should be ok.
Would be intresting if some one with a Big HP tune and returnless pump would run on a dyno with a 1/4 tank or less of fuel and see if they can run long enuf at max HP to starve the engine for fuel, if they can then the check valve is the limiting factor.

That's what I can figure out for now, I'll study the sending unit some more tomm.

The fuel is sucked from the basket via the feed line and returned to the basket via the return line..........The FASS alters the fuel return

The stock return line is still working and still returning fuel to the basket.

It's the return from the FASS pump that dumps into the fuel tank fill tube.

Dieseltech,


Now in the case of diesel dragon, he alterd the basket/pickup. So he will have a great big pump that never runs out of supply. The same modification could be done to the Trippin pickup. Just put a TEE in the pickup and run it to a secondary pickup. So the big pump would alwys have plenty of fuel to suck from.


I haven't altered the stock basket yet, I was only speculating that a new draw tube might be a better and easier answer than trying to modify the factory basket for those of us with big return pumps.




I am simply asking, is the factory basket inlet flow along with the factory return flow suffecient to supply a large program?


Apparently it is Bronco as guys with big HP numbers are making 11 and 12 second quarter mile run's. But they could just be running off the fuel that's in the basket at the start of the run even if they only have a 1/4 tank of fuel. Now if we get to 10 sec or 9 sec run's or better yet if they tried to run a 1 or 2 mile race then you would see right away if the basket inlet check valve were big enuf to supply the big HP or if they would empty out the basket anyway.
Plus as long as you race with more than a half tank of fuel the whole basket/check valve is mute as the fuel spills in from the top of the basket.



My .02

You seem to keep missing the point, any pump that will supply pressure at about 5 psi to the CP3 pump will increase the power output! Just because we were using a FASS has nothing to do with it! How the H E L L do you think Charlie new they were too big in the first place, I called him. The pump is not to big under High load it's just to big under low load because of the return. In your own post you said that they donot completely close the return are you now changing that statement! You seem to be good at typing on the keyboard and terrible at get up out of the chair and doing some test work. You bought pumps over a year ago then returned them, how about getting something installed and doing some testing then report your findings. Until then believe what you want as it does no good to try and tell you what we've found by testing. Once you remove the sender from the tank maybe, just maybe, you might understand.
Steve it is such a pleasure to learn with you about these trucks. -:t

Dieseltech

The question I posed was, is the basket being sucked dry with a big program and a lift pump? So in technical terms, is the engine demand greater then the return flow+ basket inlet flow?Bronco,

In my experience with the Air Dog 80, the truck stalled on the FWY off ramp as soon as I made a right turn.
I had about 1/3 of a tank left & I was in the 120HP setting so I don't think the big program is part of this problem.
Diesel Tech said :
"The pump is not to big under High load it's just to big under low load because of the return."

BINGO !

Thanks for the clarification Diesel Tech. So 2 FM100's are needed to supply enough fuel volume to the engine ...under what conditions? What is considered "enough" volume?


Is there a magic number people with a known setup should be striving for? I know there are a lot of guys trying different options/pump setups ...Holley's, Carters, SD's dual setup, FM100's, FASS, Perp, etc and a few people working on kits to be available at some future time.

There are also people like me that have a need for a LP setup now. I have spent hours parsing/reading hundreds of posts like I'm sure many have done and yet there still doesn't seem to be a proven setup. Am I right in saying the "perfect" setup simply does not exist today? If not, what is it? :) All I'm looking for is the best setup available for my application that I will be happy with.
I ran a single FM100 and found it will maintain positive fuel pressure under all conditions on a LB7 with hot juice on level 5 during a 1/4 mile run. It will also maintain positve pressure towing at WOT for extended periods with Juice on lvl2. Granted, the pressure drops, but never below 1 psi at the post OEM mega filter. I have not run any larger tunes.

Bronco,

In my experience with the Air Dog 80, the truck stalled on the FWY off ramp as soon as I made a right turn.
I had about 1/3 of a tank left & I was in the 120HP setting so I don't think the big program is part of this problem.
Diesel Tech said :
"The pump is not to big under High load it's just to big under low load because of the return."

BINGO !I understand what you are saying. I was sitting on the 135 for a year but finally got around to exchanging it for the smaller 80. We just had 1 week of freezing weather pass, so I hope to get after it soon. I have been keeping my tank at 1/4 in anticipation of install. The first thing I will do is crawl around on some offroad trails. That will tell me if I need to make any custom mods.


Steve as far as you comment about me changing my story about return characteristics, pay attetnion you will learn something here.

The FASS operates a little differently then the Preporator. When the Engine demand exceeds the flow capabillatys of the FASS the regulator ball completly closes and diverts all fuel/air to the engine. Brads theory is to size the pump so that the engine demand would never exceed the flow capabillatys so the regulator ball would never completly seat, allowing return flow to the filler neck at all times assuring air separation.

The Preporator, on the other hand has a very small port that allows a tiny amount of fuel/air to flow to the filler neck even if the regulator check ball seats completly. It is drilled so that a tiny amount of fuel goes right on past the regulator check ball when seated.

So on both pumps, if and when the regulator ball seats, all flow goes to the engine. Except with the Preporator a tiny amount of fuel/air is allowed to always go to the filler neck assuring air separation under all conditions. I hope you understand the design intentions and why I said what I said. Now I have one for you.


So in my very original post in this thread, I asked a question. Lets see if you can/willing to answer it. If I hooked up a super duper lift pump that supplied 5 PSI regardless of program/ECM/injectors, will the basket inlet allow enough fuel to come in and keep the basket full?

I understand return flow from the factory return line will need to be calculated into this equation.

Bronco
Once again you are quoting manufacturer or their brochure. You are good at that. I will tell you that the fass does not do what you are quoting. GO DO SOME TESTS. I have.

Can you tap into the engine return line and run the excess fuel thru it (non FASS pump)? Once the weather breaks I was going to install my lift pump with a 5 psi check valve which is tee'd off the main line for a return near the engine. I then wanted to tap into the engine return line and dump the fuel back this way. My only concerns are restricting the return flow and the increased temperature of the return flow since the fuel will be going over the engine before returning to the tank.

Can you tap into the engine return line and run the excess fuel thru it (non FASS pump)? Once the weather breaks I was going to install my lift pump with a 5 psi check valve which is tee'd off the main line for a return near the engine. I then wanted to tap into the engine return line and dump the fuel back this way. My only concerns are restricting the return flow and the increased temperature of the return flow since the fuel will be going over the engine before returning to the tank.
Why not dump it back to the inlet of the pump. That way you have less tendency to "empty the bucket", as it only pulls from the bucket what the engine uses and what the engine returns. The above method pulls the same plus the additional return fuel. Also, teeing into the return line will add some (depending on how much bypass fuel there is) back pressure to the engine return fuel.

That would be my alternative method, although I think it would need a cooler to prevent overheating the fuel if it were constantly recirculating.

For the guys running dual FM100's ...where's the best place to buy and did you have to build a custom bracket? I think I will be going this route (dual FM100's), at least for now as it appears to be a relatively cost-effective solution and simple installation. I will be replacing my secondard racor mounted to the frame rail ...perhaps I'll be able to use the same bracket but doubt it.

The pump is not to big under High load it's just to big under low load because of the return

Steve is dead on with this comment. Further testing with our test setup shows that at an idle, the pump (Airdog) is simply is too much. Under a load.......YAHTZEE!!!! However, this should be able to be fixed with a regulator which we will be testing very soon. Who here has tried one?

looks like i sparked this thread:D thanks for the answers though i had been considering the pickup assembly. just havent decided whether i feel like dropping the tank or taking the bed off. right now i dont really think i would benifit from it but say under high(er) boost applications do u think it would allow for more rail pressure with bigger injectors?

Steve is dead on with this comment. Further testing with our test setup shows that at an idle, the pump (Airdog) is simply is too much. Under a load.......YAHTZEE!!!! However, this should be able to be fixed with a regulator which we will be testing very soon. Who here has tried one?


Dstrbd,

Where do you plan to mount the regulator?

If you regulate the return line from the pump to the tank don't you raise the pressure going to the motor?

And if you regulate the supply line from the tank to the pump don't you run the risk of starving the pump for fuel and possiblly burning it up or at least cutting down it's life expectancy?

And if you regulate the supply to the engine, then that won't do anything for the basket problem.

No arguement's from me, just wondering what your thinking.

And if you need a FASS pump equiped truck to try something on let me know, I'd be willing to try anything at this point.



Diesel Dragon

Diesel Dragon you are a quick learner. You asked all the right questions.




DSTRBD,

What kind of problems did you have at idle? Did you look inside the tank or did it just die or something?



Further testing with our test setup shows that at an idle, the pump (Airdog) is simply is too much.

Here is a link to my initial Air Dog 80 experience. I will post more as I gather info.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28833

DD- All excellent questions which we do not have the answers for yet as we have not began to test. Thanks for the testing offer, I will let you know when we get closer.

Bronco- Choppy idle. The engine never cut off, but was choppy at times, at other times it was pefect. There is no direct correlation to tank fullness, boxes, temperature, etc. Kinda weird. Ran the codes and P0089 showed up.

DSTRBD,

The P0089 code as you already know is too high rail pressure. Check your test point pressure...anything over 9psi and my truck sets that code.

I have no idle issues..idles perfect...code is set when cold...else never sets it. Even when I had 12 psi at the test point...only cold/startup.

I have three filters after the Airdog and they only drop 10psi to 9. Stock setup you will have higher pressure.

I believe it is the inability of the fuel pressure regulator to bleed off the pressure quick enough before the computer flags it. Actually the pressure builds when you coast.


I do have the lopey idle when compressor is on...which is most likely due to the regulator.

I built a bracket/armor and have my pumps hanging between the bedrail and the frame. No difference in idel ect.

Steve it is such a pleasure to learn with you about these trucks. -:t
Bronco

Talking to you about this issue is like talking to a 5 year old kid....................... you just keep telling them the same thing over and over again and hope they will learn.

If you build to much fuel pressure into the system the ECM sees the pressure regulator duty cycle change outside the normal area. Once this happens you will set a code. The choppy idle is the result of too much pressure at idle. The other end of the problem is when a big tuneup requires more fuel than can be supplied the regulator does the same thing, so what we need is a system that adds little to no fuel pressure at idle and as much as 15 psi under heavy load. This allows the regulator to work within it's normal operating range under most conditions.

All this :blahblah: is not really helping anyone, right? What exactly is the flow requirement?
I will try to throw some numbers hopefully someone will add in...
Letīs say you are making about 650hp (flywheel) which translates to
480kW. A typical CR Diesel will have a specific fuel efficiency of 200g/kWh.
Now assume you overfuel 50%?! which would make it 300g/kWh This results in a Diesel need of 144kg/h or 160l/h (42gph).

Here is something to chew on:
Why not have an intermediate reservoir with level sensor of letīs say 1gal capacity to withdraw diesel from and return into. When the level drops a second pump will fill it from the tank.
Would this cause too much foaming? Temperature issues in idle?

All this :blahblah: is not really helping anyone, right? What exactly is the flow requirement?
I will try to throw some numbers hopefully someone will add in...
Letīs say you are making about 650hp (flywheel) which translates to
480kW. A typical CR Diesel will have a specific fuel efficiency of 200g/kWh.
Now assume you overfuel 50%?! which would make it 300g/kWh This results in a Diesel need of 144kg/h or 160l/h (42gph).
I ran some numbers and here is what I came up with. Please look these over and tell me if you agree.


Water = 8.333lbs/gal

8.333 x .84(Diesel specific gravity)=6.9997 or 7lbs/gal

650Hp @ .50 BSFC = 325lbs of fuel per hour

325lbs / 7lbs per gal = 46.42 GPH

Lets double it for fuel return by the injectors. That means 92.86GPH @ 15 psi to support 650HP.:D

How does the filter on the FM100 compare to the filter with the Racor kit?

They come standard with clear water bowls and drains and also come standard with 5 micron elements but I have heard they now have 2 mic units. I duno how it compares to the racor but I poped the lid on our new cat loader and other than the fact its yellow the filter on the loader and the fm100 look quite simmilar. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm. I will try to remember to get pics this weekend.......

From my research the filters are different however both can be had in whatever micron rating you prefer. The FM100 filters appear to be a "snap-lock" type filter vice screw on like the Racor (BTW, I run a Racor R60 presently). It also looks like the FM filters can be had in lengths of 6" or 4.3" ...similar to the Racor where an R90 is about 1-2" longer then an R60 filter. I think the FM filters are narrower then the Racor filters(judging by the pictures, could be wrong) so probably a little smaller in overall surface area ...not that it would make much of a difference.

Since there doesn't appear to be a "perfect" lift pump solution yet I am going to try and use my existing Racor filter and plumb in a Carter LP and bypass. At least this will give me a low-cost LP solution until something better hits the street. If I didn't have a secondary filter already I'd probably go with the dual FM100 setup.


How does the filter on the FM100 compare to the filter with the Racor kit?

The reservoir is basically what is in the fuel tank on the end of the sender. The problem comes from drawing the fuel out faster than the reservoir fills at low fuel tank levels. Also you have forgotten about the return fuel system that GM uses in your fuel calculations so you need to provide the necessary fuel for the return as well. The problem is there are no numbers for flow requirement of this part of the system and as pressure rises more is needed as more is returned.

Can any ole' mechanic install this billet pickup? It looks way to complicated for me. Let me know what you all think -- did you do yourselves? If so are you a mechanic?

Agree on your calculation....but I am not sure if the fuel return will be double the flow of what the injectors could possibly squeeze out... I hope to get some reading on this stuff soon....will let you know. During normal operation (650hp I do not consider normal...:D:D) the return flow will easily be several times of what the injectors consume.

I ran some numbers and here is what I came up with. Please look these over and tell me if you agree.


Water = 8.333lbs/gal

8.333 x .84(Diesel specific gravity)=6.9997 or 7lbs/gal

650Hp @ .50 BSFC = 325lbs of fuel per hour

325lbs / 7lbs per gal = 46.42 GPH

Lets double it for fuel return by the injectors. That means 92.86GPH @ 15 psi to support 650HP.:D

Steve,

I will dig a little deeper into this, as I have not looked at all the system aspects. Is all fuel returned through the injectors or is there a pre-CP3 return as well? If not then there is still the limit of what the CP3 can pump.

:confuzeld From what I learned yesterday the CP3 can only pump like 40gph at best (3400rpm @ 2/3 ratio)

The reservoir is basically what is in the fuel tank on the end of the sender. The problem comes from drawing the fuel out faster than the reservoir fills at low fuel tank levels. Also you have forgotten about the return fuel system that GM uses in your fuel calculations so you need to provide the necessary fuel for the return as well. The problem is there are no numbers for flow requirement of this part of the system and as pressure rises more is needed as more is returned.

Yes, it returns fuel from places other than the injectors. The CP3 uses fuel to lubricate itself and cool itself.

If you punch down the return line will you get more fuel to the injector along with more pressure. there ought to be a valve that closes this some depending on how the throttle operates. this should be done inversely to the fuel being used. so the more fuel you want to use the less the fuel should be required to go back to the tank and while ideling most of the fuel ought to go back to the tank. otherwise you would lose the needed pressure to produce the HP needed/ wanted during or while using high demand chip and tuners. could this be part of the problem you guys are having with not getting enough fuel and having to add a 2nd pump. to me it seems that you are just flowing more fuel around in circles without adding much pressure.

i think this would still keep the system cool while providing the maximium advantage to the injection system and save your money for something else.

be sure i get the patent for the idea though so i can make some much needed cash for college.

maybe this is already on these trucks but it doesn't sound like it.

if there was everyone could punch them down during pulls or high fuel volume situations when the cooling wouldn't be needed for such a short burst.-

Here is something to chew on:
Why not have an intermediate reservoir with level sensor of letīs say 1gal capacity to withdraw diesel from and return into. When the level drops a second pump will fill it from the tank.
Would this cause too much foaming? Temperature issues in idle?They make accumulators. The have the permacool head and a can. Designed to hold fuel for emergencys. 4x4 guys use them all the time.

.

Just wondering...

Are there currently pumps that are flow through when not powered? Centrifugal ones?

If there is no need for the fuel pump to kick in till +15 PSI, could there be a boost sensor/hobbs switch that see's that boost increase and then turns the pump on as needed? I realize that would be high wear and tear..

Another idea would be two pumps if there are no flow through pumps. One higher GPH and a lower GPH, and based on the previous setup, turns on when in demand.

Is something like this feasible or am I thinking stuff out of a comic book?

Just wondering...

Are there currently pumps that are flow through when not powered? Centrifugal ones?

If there is no need for the fuel pump to kick in till +15 PSI, could there be a boost sensor/hobbs switch that see's that boost increase and then turns the pump on as needed? I realize that would be high wear and tear..

Another idea would be two pumps if there are no flow through pumps. One higher GPH and a lower GPH, and based on the previous setup, turns on when in demand.

Is something like this feasible or am I thinking stuff out of a comic book?Super Diesel already has that covered. I can take a pic of it if u like

There is another solution to the high flow at low demand problem.

I've been working on a PWM circuit to control the amount of water injection based on sensor input. This same circuit, with minor mods, would also be able to modulate a fuel pump motor and control flow based on output pressure pre regulator.

Anyone want a prototype?

RyanU,

Ahh. damn, I am not keeping up with the boards as I've been out alot.. Pic would be great..

Fingers,

I would, but no pumpo for the truck yet..

Anyone want a prototype?
Yes please! :D

Yes please! :D
West coast..east coast.......let me know the cost............you take PAYPAL ??????

I am going to play around with restricting the factory return line. This will prevent less fuel from being returned and allow any electrical lift pump to easily build more pressure.

Now will it throw a code?

Super Diesel already has that covered. I can take a pic of it if u like He sure does, his pumps eliminated my stumble.

What is the amp draw on these pumps so I can mock it up.

Fingers

Fingers,

If you have another prototype to try out I would be intrested too.

The FASS pump that I have says it Usually draws 5 to 8 amps and can surge to 12 amps when first turned on.

Something to limit the voltage to the pump based on engine hp output sounds like the ticket.

Low hp demand at 2,000 rpm = cruising around town or highway = low voltage

High hp demand at 2,000 rpm = stomping on the go pedal = high voltage


Diesel Dragon

I don't think RPM is the right parameter to look at.

I would only have to monitor the fuel pressure post OEM filter and adjust the pump to maintain a given pressure. For example, look for and maintain 5 PSI post OEM and set the pump bypass regulator to 10 PSI or more. That would allow the pump pressure to overcome all the restrictions to the engine and keep the rail pump fully primed regardless of fuel demand yet protect the system from overpressure.

Really, anything is possible since I am using a programable microcontroller for my current work.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

i think that is the only way to do it is with a pressure valve so there is constant pressure otherwise there is going to be a lag, atleast for a little bit anyway. Sounds like continueous pressure is the way to go. I would just make sure that you can change the pressure at which the bypass takes effect. so you can increase or decrease pressure for pulling then take it down again for road driving. you could probable make this a switch for pulling or drag racing shut the bypass to the tank off completely and then you could turn the by pass off for the road driving.

the next gauge is going to be a fuel pressure like the racecars have. ):h

That was my point of posting the 2,000 rpm example, that you could be at the same rpm but demanding 2 diffrent things from the engine and the pump.

It should be Horse Power controlled, demand more HP and the pump puts out more, or perhaps Throttle position controlled

Would boost be the way to control it? More boost means higher need for fuel?

too my knowledge it takes fuel to make boost. not a bad idea but it is still going to be slower when compared to tromping the peddle all of the way down and making the pump instantaneously catch up with the demand. i don't think the pump can be there quite that fast. i don't know how else you would do it without continuous pressure. i agree with diesel dragon, for what we are trying to do or i think the goal of these trucks is high HP that is streetable. When pulling in competition, you need something that is going to give you all it has and then some.

if it was going to be done by a sensor rather than a switch with the pump at constant pressure, i like the idea of the throttle position sensor the best.

Anyone want a prototype?
I would like to try this also. I will be installing twin FM 100 shortly.
mike

Fingers:

If you need a tester, I'll help out. I've got the FASS set up on my truck. And I certianly don't mind twisting a wrench or modifying the electrics.

David

too my knowledge it takes fuel to make boost. not a bad idea but it is still going to be slower when compared to tromping the peddle all of the way down and making the pump instantaneously catch up with the demand. i don't think the pump can be there quite that fast. i don't know how else you would do it without continuous pressure. i agree with diesel dragon, for what we are trying to do or i think the goal of these trucks is high HP that is streetable. When pulling in competition, you need something that is going to give you all it has and then some.

if it was going to be done by a sensor rather than a switch with the pump at constant pressure, i like the idea of the throttle position sensor the best.Boost/MAP is the only way to go. Your throttle is fly by wire so just because you mash it, that dosn't always translate into more fuel.
Aeromotive does have a device for 250.00 dolllars tried and true. So keep that price in mind when you design your circuit or by the competitors products.

http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/products/view.phtml?f_cat=Electronics

Fingers,
A suggestion, at least for the dual FM100s. Since it takes 2 of them to make enough pressure for high demand (pumping in parallel, according to what I have been told), it would seem that 1 running continuously would be enough to maintain pressure for general driving (of course this is based on speculation), but if your circuit could control the kick in/out of the second pump, seems like that would do the trick.

Seems like Mike told me these pumps are returnless so they can't cause the same issues seen with pumps that return via the filler neck, and controlling the second pump based on demand would, theoretically, be a good solution.

Please forgive my ignorance in these matters, this is only an idea.

Chisuzu. I contemplated doing the mentioned thing......but then i decided why??? They are designed to run all the time and arnt supplying too much fuel presser to piss anything off. Why complicate things is what I decided. KISS. 2 on all the time works for me.....

Yes they are returnless.

Edit: if you wanted to you could do as mentioned. Have one pump kick on based on a certian boost pressure via a hobbs.

Bronco, I dont agree with you that you cant use TPS becasue the duramax is throttle by wire. Unless I'm not thinking of something.

Also the unit you sugested is tach based signal or a 12 v signal to set it to full power output. While it could somewhat be made to work its not the solution IMHO. A unit that would work very nicely(jegs has it listed here as for mustangs but I believe it would work since it takes a boost reference or a 0-5v refererance if I read the literature right) is listed here.....its a bit pricey though. http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=158798&prmenbr=361 I havent seen anything else that looks like it would work but I'm not looking too hard......

Cool. I knew it was working out there, just wanted to throw out that idea in case it hadn't been considered. Should have known better, huh? ):h

Any idea on the life expectancy of the Stanadyne units running all the time? I can't find it in their documentation. I would think they would live a long life, but I can't find anything to support it.

Duno other than the fact they are made for continious duty. I have 6k or so on mine. Might try emailing stanadyne to see if they have an hours expecancy on em. It was the best solution I could see at the time. And i figured if one died it wouldnt leave me stranded.

I run a single 100 on my cummins, it's been running for over 30,000 miles and except for a couple of clogged filters it's been flawless.

But your 2 cylinders short so we need to cut your figure 25% for how long it would last on a real motor :p:

:joke:

I run a single 100 on my cummins, it's been running for over 30,000 miles and except for a couple of clogged filters it's been flawless.
Jim does your Cummins have a vacum fuel pump up at the motor like the Dmax?

If not I would say your liftpump works a little harder than ours do. Although its always hard to guestimate what a big mofo vacum pump does up at the front of the train.

Speaking of the FASS and Airdog or any other return pumps, no matter what you use to control the pump voltage at idle and part throttle use, the fact remains once you mash the pedal and the pump kick's on high and you are below 1/2 tank the pump will suck the bucket assembley dry, and that's where the problem is with those unit's, so you might as well have it on full power all the time till you have less than 1/2 tank and then turn it off.

The controlers might help the returnless pumps.

My .02

OK, I'm getting into the game late, and I definitely don't have any technical advice/knowledge to share.

I do have some user input, from my perspective, anyway:

1. I will be in the market for a lift pump here in the next few months, but I'm after a pump that's specifically designed for diesel duty and can run for years and 200,000 + miles without being a sissy and giving up.

2. I'd really like to keep my Racor secondary filtration because it's already installed and working, and it does a good job, IMO. I really don't want to scrap it since I already paid good money for it, and it does work well.

OK, I'm getting into the game late, and I definitely don't have any technical advice/knowledge to share.

I do have some user input, from my perspective, anyway:

1. I will be in the market for a lift pump here in the next few months, but I'm after a pump that's specifically designed for diesel duty and can run for years and 200,000 + miles without being a sissy and giving up.

2. I'd really like to keep my Racor secondary filtration because it's already installed and working, and it does a good job, IMO. I really don't want to scrap it since I already paid good money for it, and it does work well.
Our fuel pump system should be ready in 4 - 6 weeks and will allow everything you have asked for above. There are three different kits for different Hp levels, the first two kits are in production and the third kit for High Hp truck is still being tested and will not be ready unitl later this summer.

Way cool--I'm excited now!

Jim does your Cummins have a vacum fuel pump up at the motor like the Dmax?

If not I would say your liftpump works a little harder than ours do. Although its always hard to guestimate what a big mofo vacum pump does up at the front of the train. The fuel pump is a VP44 and the the lift pump is a frame rail mounted "pusher" pump which should be mounted closer to the tank. They don't do a very good job of pulling fuel so I added the FM100 to keep up with all the extra fuel the truck requires, stacks, injectors, propane, big turbo, etc. Two would do a much better job.