And by whom?

Good question

would like to no also

I don't think GM is going anywhere. They just want tax dollars just like wall street.
I for one don't want part of GM owned by some of the dip shits that run this country thou.

Not enough info yet to know, its all a guess at this point...

Had lunch with a Bankruptcy atty client of mine today and asked him the same question. He said that if they filed a chapter 11 restructuring bankruptcy that most likely the warranties would be preserved as an obligation that would not be terminated by the court. However bond holders and the banks that issued credit would be SOL.

Just what I heard.

better question if they go under will i have to finish paying for my truck?

better question if they go under will i have to finish paying for my truck?
Yepp, because your bank more than likely has already paid GM for your truck, your debt now is with the bank and NOT Gm. I know gmac but they're not going to be named in this if it fails
Not enough info yet to know, its all a guess at this point...
Do you remember when deawoo went south? They were still honoring warranty, parts were a NIGHTMARE to come across though.

Read an interview of Rick Wagoner today who said that they do not feel chapter 11 is a viable solution for them, and he basically said that if they do not get help, they will likely liquidate...

Probably scare tactics, but if they liquidate, no warranty, I would think

What sea frog said is right. The warranties will still be intact. If GM declares bankruptcy, they will just reorganize. Its actually better for GM if they do so, because thy wil be able to redo their contracts with the labor unions, which will intern make them more competative with the foreign brands such as Toyota. They won't liquidate, thats just crap scare tactics. I've been watching Fox Business and they've been talking about this the past few Days straight. The best thing for the Auto industry, is for them to file chapter 11. It might be scary to think about, but its what the industry needs.

if they go bankrupt, a court will be making the decisions for them. the big three are hurting from the decisions they made thirty years ago when they were raking in the money. the auto unions saw this back them, and made ridiculous demands to the companies. if the companies didn't meet the demands, they threatened to strike. the money was so good, the auto companies did whatever they wanted, and said we'll worry about it in thirty years when they all retire, since the UAW's workforce was so young. well, thirty years later in 2008, they are regreting it. GM pays their employees on average, $22 more and hour than the competition. there is one worker paying out for every six retiree's for there ridiculous privatized retirement plans. kind of reminds me of social security on a smaller scale. the bailout will last GM approximately 1 1/2 years at most before they run out of money. the big wigs would rather get free money from uncle SAM than have the courts cut their overpaid high up jobs and make the decisions instead of them. anything to keep there paycheck coming. bankrupsy is the only way to get out, but will elimant alot of the fat higher up. that's why they are begging for the money and praying to God the sales and economy pick up before the free cash runs out. the UAW and auto companies shot themselves in the foot, and it's time to pay the piper. tax payers don't owe them anything. i don't want the government to run the car companies, and they shouln't. on the topic i think the warranties would stick. claims will probably be more of a hassle than they already are though.

No they will not.

Joe Zrt gave a good description of the situation IMHO. The threat to liquidate is just a scare tactic as the statement about the loss of 1 million jobs. The reality is the formerly big 3 all still have a lot of value if they can get out from under the lousy contracts they made. Giving them a $25B loan without fixing the underlying bleeding will only prolong the death. They need to be remade through reorganization. Either way our warranties are in likely in tact.

Just triple tax toyota and honda and the problem will go away. More people will buy GM, Ford, and Chrysler, and you know what? They'll be happy with them! The big three will be pushed by the EPA to put out greener vehicles and they will. Competition will still remain within domestic carmakers, so what's the negative? No more toyotas to flick off as you drive by?

Just triple tax toyota and honda and the problem will go away. More people will buy GM, Ford, and Chrysler, and you know what? They'll be happy with them! The big three will be pushed by the EPA to put out greener vehicles and they will. Competition will still remain within domestic carmakers, so what's the negative? No more toyotas to flick off as you drive by?

Wrong. GM, Ford, & Chrysler need to exist by running an efficient business and not on Govt bailout money. Survival of the fittest, I say...

The big three have a bad rap. they have to deal with. The reason why the imports became so popular was due to poor quality the big 3 were putting out of during the 80's and early 90's. That is going to be an uphill battle for them due to their past. The big 3 have also been slow to respond to market changes, and put the majority of their development into full size SUV's and vans. They didn't have any fuel efficient vehicle designs out there that people wanted, then came the economy downturn, which was the second whammy. I also have to ask myself, flying in a private jet to ask for a bailout wasn't smart, especially because they know perception is everything. IMHO they should fire the top guys, and hire some folks that know how to run a Company. If you notice the foreign car manufacturers saw a downturn, but had a variety of models out there already that could respond to the market, not to mention they already had hybrids also. The sad part is the foreign manufacturers modeled themselves after the big 3, have to love exporting American knowledge and then getting beaten by it.

The sad part is the foreign manufacturers modeled themselves after the big 3, have to love exporting American knowledge and then getting beaten by it.

Couldn't have said it better.

I understand GMAC is not included. They are owned 51% by a holding
company. GMAC SmartBonds are not the same as GM stock.

If gm files chapter 11. Alot of people will be screwed. Everybody wants to blame the UAW. The UAW workers have gave up alot recently we have taken pay cuts we have taken health care cuts. what alot of people dont understand is if the big 3 go under all of the car suppliers will shut down. Alot of the suppliers supply parts for toyota and honda as well as gm ford and dodge. Toyota and honda have said if the big 3 go under they will have to shut down all U.S. plants. Because all of the suppliers will be closed. Toyota and honda have such an advantge because they dont have the retires. It cost GM 1600 dollars a car to pay for there employees as for toyota it cost them 200 dollors. With toyota shipping all of there profits over seas. Just remeber when 1 auto worker loses there job IT AFFECTS 9 MORE JOBS OF OTHER PEOPLE.

Some real good commentary here.

Will GM go under.? I simply cannot believe that Obama will allow it. 5 million workers both in the US and Canada will be affected (ie; lose their jobs). Not something any President will want as his legacy. They will get help but with some serious strings attached.

The number one string will as I see it will be to seriously curtail the munificent pay packages of the average line worker (in Oshawa, the guy that drives the vehicle off the line to the lot makes $ 37.00 CAD per hour. Unskiiled Labour. Hell, that's more than a Experienced Hi-pressure welder working in Oil rich Alberta.!) No education - big bucks for doing what exactly.?? squat.

And as a note to the Canadian Auto Workers union. Get Real and Get ready boys..time to get back to the reality the rest of us are living. You actually have to produce something to make $$.

I also see strings attached as to the type of vehicles being produced. A majority of the tax dollars had better be spent doing R&D on ENERGY/Fuel Efficiency and producing a top quality product. Don't tell me you can't build a 4/6 cyl small diesel that can get 55 mpg....if you plan to, kindly see www.vw.ca or whatever. I simply don't buy that energy efficiency is unattainable....or for that matter what about Boone Pickens idea.??? pretty logical to me.

Thirdly I see a real push to limit the fat at the top third of the Automakers food chain. It has never made much sense to me that CEO's are compensated and bonused for running companies into the ground. Limits on Senior Management salaries is definitely going to be discussed.

But as for the Auto industry going down...won't happen. By Auto Industry I don't just mean the Automakers alone, I include all the tier 1, 2 and 3 suppliers as well and those that supply them as well. That is where your 5 million workers figure comes from.

Big Time Changes - You can Bet on it.

cheers,

stk

If gm files chapter 11. Alot of people will be screwed. Everybody wants to blame the UAW. The UAW workers have gave up alot recently we have taken pay cuts we have taken health care cuts. what alot of people dont understand is if the big 3 go under all of the car suppliers will shut down.
And all of those people will then be unemployed

Alot of the suppliers supply parts for toyota and honda as well as gm ford and dodge. Toyota and honda have said if the big 3 go under they will have to shut down all U.S. plants. Because all of the suppliers will be closed. Toyota and honda have such an advantge because they dont have the retires. It cost GM 1600 dollars a car to pay for there employees as for toyota it cost them 200 dollors. With toyota shipping all of there profits over seas. Just remeber when 1 auto worker loses there job IT AFFECTS 9 MORE JOBS OF OTHER PEOPLE.

Very well said... These are the reasons its so important for the government to help the big 3.

I don't like the idea of a bailout any more than a lot of you guys who are saying let 'em die, but I don't think people understand or consider the HUGE implication an industry failure would have on our national economy.

It's not just the big 3; it's their millions of American employees, it's all the parts vendors and their employees. It's the coffee houses and burger joints and all the other shops & stores that are frequented by those millions of workers. Some of those businesses will then go under, and now there's even more people who are not contribuiting to the GNP. In the economies of scale, it is a wicked, vicious circle

This issue is no less important than the bank bailouts. The banks were bailed out to prevent an implosion of our economic base, NOT to help the banks... It's exactly the same thing with the big 3

They need help

I don't really believe GM is going anywhere unless they can make a dollar doing it. Hell, even our government is offering help to bail out GM.

I think we should loan them the money but put guide lines on it. Like none of the money should help with work over seas. Pay cuts for the ceos. theres reports out there that some of the ceos are making up to 30 million dollars a year thats nuts.

If gm files chapter 11. Alot of people will be screwed. Everybody wants to blame the UAW. The UAW workers have gave up alot recently we have taken pay cuts we have taken health care cuts. what alot of people dont understand is if the big 3 go under all of the car suppliers will shut down. Alot of the suppliers supply parts for toyota and honda as well as gm ford and dodge. Toyota and honda have said if the big 3 go under they will have to shut down all U.S. plants. Because all of the suppliers will be closed. Toyota and honda have such an advantge because they dont have the retires. It cost GM 1600 dollars a car to pay for there employees as for toyota it cost them 200 dollors. With toyota shipping all of there profits over seas. Just remeber when 1 auto worker loses there job IT AFFECTS 9 MORE JOBS OF OTHER PEOPLE.

sorry to break it to you, but the UAW is 50% of the problem, and the stupid manufacturers are the other 50%. do you think the UAW has been the only ones taking paycuts and getting their health insurance lowered on a yearly basis. welcome to the real world. the UAW workers have been ahead of the pay curve for way too long, and now look what has happened. they've almost single handedly destroyed the big 3. i do feel bad for everyone involved with the auto industry right now. alot of people are going to be hurting for a while till the companies can restructure and lose the current UAW contracts. the Dems just announced they won't consider a bail out till the big three bring them a business plan. wow, one of the first smart things they've done in a while.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_autos

How many months is $25 billion going to last? Long enough?

18 months max. and that's why they're on their hands and knees begging for the money and banking on car sales as well as the economy to take a turn for the better.

Betting on hope is a risky idea.....but thats all they have it seems...

Being one of those UAW workers i get to see both sides. The media wants to only report the negative side never the positive side. You want to blame the UAW for our pay being so high. Got news for you the people over at toyota and honda are making the same amount as we are and there not union. The auto industrie used to be one of the highest paying jobs you could have. With day in age we are no longer theres alot of other jobs paying much beter with beter health care.

I don't think GM is going anywhere. They just want tax dollars just like wall street.
I for one don't want part of GM owned by some of the dip shits that run this country thou.


X2! :ro)

Wakyzoomy, if there's a better job out there w/ higher pay and better benefits, why are you where you're at?
I believe the Big 3's problems are upper management and the unions. The upper management for their lack of forsight and greediness. The unions for pushing for the max. I had a couple of union jobs, up until the late '70s and saw their abuse of their power. I'm here on the left coast, our biggest problem (as I see it) is the Teachers Union. They want more pay and bennies, but they're turning kids out of HS who can barely read or write!
I'm only 58, but I learned early, you work your butt off and your boss will take care of you. You don't, and you're out on your can. Unions were good and needed at one time, don't see it now. I own my own company now. I pay all my own doctors calls, unless it's serious, then I can fall back on the VA.
I'm waiting for the oil companies to cry out, they aren't making it at $50 a barrel! and need a bailout!

Bottom Line is- everyone rows their own boat. If you want to get anywhere, you paddle like hell and don't carry too many anchors.

The Big 3 need to row like hell; if you work for them and want your job, you best talk with your union reps. I got one more year on my 3 year warranty on my truck. I'd rather eat the rest and not see a bailout. I got a good truck and don't abuse it, that much.

Shep

sorry to break it to you, but the UAW is 50% of the problem, and the stupid manufacturers are the other 50%. do you think the UAW has been the only ones taking paycuts and getting their health insurance lowered on a yearly basis. welcome to the real world. the UAW workers have been ahead of the pay curve for way too long, and now look what has happened. they've almost single handedly destroyed the big 3. i do feel bad for everyone involved with the auto industry right now. alot of people are going to be hurting for a while till the companies can restructure and lose the current UAW contracts. the Dems just announced they won't consider a bail out till the big three bring them a business plan. wow, one of the first smart things they've done in a while.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_autos


Amen. At the current burn rate GM wouldn run through their portion of the funds in about five months. There is a reason why Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, and Hyndai are in much better shape that the big three. When you take a typical Big 3 worker and add up the salary, medical benefits, and take the present value of their pension stream. This worker earns $72,000 per year currently. The same workers in the south east at the other manufacturers have no pension and their pay and benefits total apx. $40,000 per year and they are responsible for their own retirement.

1. Let the unions give 35% concessions in pay and benefits and the same for execs. Replace the pensions for active workers with a profit sharing plan that will be funded based on the profitability of the manufacturer. Then give a 25 billion bridge loan with the above conditions subject to the ability to show the return to profit within 5 years.

2. If the above is unworkable for the union and execs. Then chapter 11 restructuring and let the court force the above.

2.

what warranty? ):h

Make no mistake fellas. We hear mostly about the Big 3, but the import companies are hurting as well. I saw pictures of the storage lots when the cars come off the boats. They are supposed to move quite quickly and get cycled through. Now, it looks like the import car companies are going to have to lease the space from the shipping yards. No one's buying cars. Not from GM, Ford or Dodge. But also they're not buying them from the import companies as well.

I could very easily justify replacing one of my vehicles. I'm not going to right now. I am much more cautious after the last couple years and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is.

Moved to the Warranty section! ;)

shep i see what your saying. I really dont have a choice but to stay with having been here almost 10 years and having three kids to take care of. If these companys wouldnt try and take advantge of there people we wouldnt need a union. Like i said i can see why people dont want them bailed out. But if the economy wasnt so bad they wouldnt have to be bailed out. The fact is if there not bailed out the economy will get worse and alot of people will lose there jobs.

Make no mistake fellas. We hear mostly about the Big 3, but the import companies are hurting as well. I saw pictures of the storage lots when the cars come off the boats. They are supposed to move quite quickly and get cycled through. Now, it looks like the import car companies are going to have to lease the space from the shipping yards. No one's buying cars. Not from GM, Ford or Dodge. But also they're not buying them from the import companies as well.

I could very easily justify replacing one of my vehicles. I'm not going to right now. I am much more cautious after the last couple years and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is.

In our current economy, plummeting car sales is not even a matter of whether someone wants to buy a car or not - they CAN'T.

My bro-in law is the general manager of the store I bought my truck from. He told me last week that he is selling cars all day long, but the banks and GMAC are turning down loan applications on people with credit ratings over 700!!

No credit, no car sales

I see this quickly got de-railed....

GM has no intentions on skipping out on any warranties for any customers. If they were, would you ever purchase another GM product??? They arn't stupid, they know your answer and don't want to get there....

How did they get here?? great question.... They started to have issues with the high fuel prices becuase everyone wanted the TRUCKs but wanted the CAR fuel economy.... so the slwed the sales on the trucks and a lot of folks went to cars instead. With that, earlier this fall there was a "credit" crisis where in october EVERY car company has lost sales over last year. GM and Toyota both were in the -40% range from last year in October. All due to customers not being able to get credit.

Now, with low sales, you can't really get "income" moving quickly.... So, the business plan that they had in place didn't account for this sudden slump in sales. Typically they would goto a bank and get a loan.... well, banks aren't lending.. so, they went to the gov asking for a LOAN, whih they were trying to get to come from their 49% stake in GMAC. The media has since turned this LOAN into a bailout which isn't really the truth.

So, GM doesn't need the "restructing" they have been going through that for quite some time now (really since around 2003)... They have been restructing headcounts recently and are the 5th largest car company from a head count perspective, but yet are the largest car company from a world wide sales persepctive as well as in the US.

Bottom line is, we as Americans, can't let these companies fail.... when GM was in a 54 day strike with the union, when financial times were good, the GDP dropped 10%. That was with 1 company.... imagine all 3 + suppliers + dealers..... The depression of the 30s would have nothing on what would happen if they were to fail.

check out this site for some more details (http://gmfactsandfiction.com/archives)

If any of you guys are drivers and have had to unload at GM sites for parts,supplies,and etc. You will know about the lazy a$$ union guys at the docks and wearhouses. You can set for hours to unload and if you say anyhting about getting unloaded faster they just take another break and let you set. When you don't get paid by the hour setting takes money out of the drivers pockets. Seems letting the Big 3 reorganize and getting read of some of the over paid wages paid to some of the screw turners would help the auto makers return to making a profit..

Just heard on the news that GM has 3,500 UAW workers not working and drawing up to 95% of thier wages. This is stupid. :(

Just heard on the news that GM has 3,500 UAW workers not working and drawing up to 95% of thier wages. This is stupid. :(
The jobs bank was supposed to be gone with the new agreement, meaning September 2009.... as of tonight I hearon the news that it might be gone yet this year....

Honestly, if you talk to the majority of the UA employees, they will tell you flat out, they don't want the people whom do the things that have been outlined here and in the media in their union. They want fair wages, fair working conditions and a good work ethic, after all, they are Americans.... those who want it all and eat their cake too.... well they need to get taught a few lessons in my book.... BUT, that isn't the reason for the recent trip to DC....

Also, just heard that Mitsubishi, Land Rover, Suziki, Ferrari and one other car company aren't NOT going to the Detroit Auto Show due to their financial state..... (its not only the Big 3 feeling the crunch)

The jobs bank was supposed to be gone with the new agreement, meaning September 2009.... as of tonight I hearon the news that it might be gone yet this year....

Honestly, if you talk to the majority of the UA employees, they will tell you flat out, they don't want the people whom do the things that have been outlined here and in the media in their union. They want fair wages, fair working conditions and a good work ethic, after all, they are Americans.... those who want it all and eat their cake too.... well they need to get taught a few lessons in my book.... BUT, that isn't the reason for the recent trip to DC....

Also, just heard that Mitsubishi, Land Rover, Suziki, Ferrari and one other car company aren't NOT going to the Detroit Auto Show due to their financial state..... (its not only the Big 3 feeling the crunch)

yep agree.

See what the big unions got the steel workers...out of work and moving south.Most companies cant afford to pay unreal wages and support a complete work force that has already retired.The unions keep saying how important there are but they know if they get voted out then its them that will be looking for work.

you will never see this giant go under, never

I don't think GM is going anywhere. They just want tax dollars just like wall street.
I for one don't want part of GM owned by some of the dip shits that run this country thou.
I agree totally

I had no idea that so many anti-union types are on this. Where in the heck most of you get your ideas is beyond me. From Forbes or some other union busting paper, I guess. Why do so many believe that the Japenese should set the wages for American auto workers? How about letting them set your wages or prices? Let's cut the bull and tell it like it is. Auto workers make $26/hr. on a job at speeds most of you could or would not do. Do the math. My pension is less than 28k a year. At 62 it goes to $1100 a month. Is that low enough for you? Auto workers medical is better than average but no better than any of dozens of major industries regardless of what you read in the union busting papers. The jobs bank program was started to keep trained workers while older workers were retireing. It was never ment as a welfare program. A lot of young workers owe their jobs to that program. If that is so wrong why is Toyota paying workers their full salery while their truck plants in Texas and Indiana sit idle all this past summer? What we have here is a massive campain to put the working people and the middle class into poverty for the enrichment of the wealthy. I don't believe most of you on this forum fit that catagory. Today it's the UAW, next will be your job or pension. Like Hitler Germany, you will look around and they will be coming for you.

The big 3 need to do what any other company does when it is suffering from slow sales and a bad economy...... Fix the problem yourself by doing whatever it takes, cut backs and layoffs to start with , especially the big exec's that make millions for doing nothing but watch their company go down the shitter. You gotta be lean and mean in todays economy, not fat like they are now.
They need to get with the program. Things have changed in the last 12 - 24 months and they haven't changed enough to keep up.
I'm not saying let them go under but I think they are smart enough to figure this out themselves, not have Uncle Sam do it for them.

I had no idea that so many anti-union types are on this. Where in the heck most of you get your ideas is beyond me. From Forbes or some other union busting paper, I guess. Why do so many believe that the Japenese should set the wages for American auto workers? How about letting them set your wages or prices? Let's cut the bull and tell it like it is. Auto workers make $26/hr. on a job at speeds most of you could or would not do. Do the math. My pension is less than 28k a year. At 62 it goes to $1100 a month. Is that low enough for you? Auto workers medical is better than average but no better than any of dozens of major industries regardless of what you read in the union busting papers. The jobs bank program was started to keep trained workers while older workers were retireing. It was never ment as a welfare program. A lot of young workers owe their jobs to that program. If that is so wrong why is Toyota paying workers their full salery while their truck plants in Texas and Indiana sit idle all this past summer? What we have here is a massive campain to put the working people and the middle class into poverty for the enrichment of the wealthy. I don't believe most of you on this forum fit that catagory. Today it's the UAW, next will be your job or pension. Like Hitler Germany, you will look around and they will be coming for you.


X2...many don't understand or just haven't been given all the facts. If unions were so bad why is it that every major colliagiate study has found them to be invaluable? It is good anytime you can have a say in your working conditions and compensation. We as a whole don't realize what our previous generations had to do for a 5 day work week....or even a 40 hr work week. Many of the standard work practices came about due to union struggles. My grandfather was in the Flint sit down strike and fought for these things so I am very appreciative. I bet most here don't even know what that strike was or even what it was about.

If gm files chapter 11. Alot of people will be screwed. Everybody wants to blame the UAW. The UAW workers have gave up alot recently we have taken pay cuts we have taken health care cuts. what alot of people dont understand is if the big 3 go under all of the car suppliers will shut down. Alot of the suppliers supply parts for toyota and honda as well as gm ford and dodge. Toyota and honda have said if the big 3 go under they will have to shut down all U.S. plants. Because all of the suppliers will be closed. Toyota and honda have such an advantge because they dont have the retires. It cost GM 1600 dollars a car to pay for there employees as for toyota it cost them 200 dollors. With toyota shipping all of there profits over seas. Just remeber when 1 auto worker loses there job IT AFFECTS 9 MORE JOBS OF OTHER PEOPLE.


Must have missed that,cuzwhat I seen was they were not gonna back down.If they do go under,the only thing good about that is UAW would be gone, like a monkey off the back kind of thing.

I have been in a Union and it did nothing for me.

We had a hog plant threaten a stike years back and the owner said do and I will shut the plant, well guess what they are all out of jobs. Saw the same thing at a steel mill, they were still walking the line as the plant got torn down.

Lets not turn this into a Union good or bad thread but I think they have outlived their usefullness in modern life.

I own my own company and I have no pension, no benifets and no protection if I mess up at work the union does not protect me from the real world.

Just my $.02 but I am young and don't really know alot.

Yes Matt you are young and know very little. The real world may come and bite you one day.

A black friend of mine from GM told me about the small town in East Texas he grew up in. It was a pretty poor town and not many jobs. His uncle would come to town in a big black Cadilac. He worked at Scullin Steel (since closed) in St.Louis. A hard back breaking job but one with good pay and dignity. Otis and his friends said, one day I'm going to be like that. When Otis turned 18 he went to St.Louis and worked at the Gm plant. He had a house, a car, sent his two girls to collage. Otis says now and then he goes back home. Kids like him standing on the corner watch drug dealers drive by say, I'm gonna have me something like that someday. When you or a loved one is looking down that barrel I hope you give the slightist thought to "world trade".

Yes Matt you are young and know very little. The real world may come and bite you one day.

A black friend of mine from GM told me about the small town in East Texas he grew up in. It was a pretty poor town and not many jobs. His uncle would come to town in a big black Cadilac. He worked at Scullin Steel (since closed) in St.Louis. A hard back breaking job but one with good pay and dignity. Otis and his friends said, one day I'm going to be like that. When Otis turned 18 he went to St.Louis and worked at the Gm plant. He had a house, a car, sent his two girls to collage. Otis says now and then he goes back home. Kids like him standing on the corner watch drug dealers drive by say, I'm gonna have me something like that someday. When you or a loved one is looking down that barrel I hope you give the slightist thought to "world trade".


Oh please!!! Sounds like somthing out of a book.What if Otis got a job as a real estate agent...or....even a doctor???? UNION'S ARE CORRUPT.

Corrupt? I am sorry but that is a very ignorant statement with no basis in fact. Unions have to follow more stringent standards than big corporations thanks to President Bush. They are anything but corrupt. Every dollar has to be accounted for unlike big Business. Unions are held to a very high standard today. As a member of the IBEW I take the time to be involved with my union and know a bit about it. To make of the cuff remarks with no basis in fact is inappropriate and just spurs public misinformation.

Corrupt? I am sorry but that is a very ignorant statement with no basis in fact. Unions have to follow more stringent standards than big corporations thanks to President Bush. They are anything but corrupt. Every dollar has to be accounted for unlike big Business. Unions are held to a very high standard today. As a member of the IBEW I take the time to be involved with my union and know a bit about it. To make of the cuff remarks with no basis in fact is inappropriate and just spurs public misinformation.


No facts???? there draining the piss out these car plants,and wont even take a cut in pay.While the economy has hurt the big 3.Yet the union wont give a inch.There's your facts.Why does everbody blame bush? I see your a member....that explains why your but hurt.Like I said,if they did go under,the only good would be to wash them selfs of the union.A good explanation of what unions do to companys.Its like having a employee embezzle,your profits,yet its legal.

I've worked in a steel mill for over 20 years,it started with a union and the company would not work with them.We voted the union out and now union free I make over 28 dollars a hour plus a weekly bonus of on average 350 to 450 dollars.Most of the guys I work with came from the big mill like U.S Steel and they wouldn't go back union,they started the push to vote union out.Like someone said earlier most of mine is hear say because we was union for only about 2 years when I started.But you can make the same wages and benifits without them.

AS an ex union employee some 18 yrs ago (voted them out)I can say from experience and personal facts that the unions are run by leeches.I make $15 hr more than ANY union guy in my trade.Secondly there is none of the seniority crap to deal with.Guess who gets first dibs on vacation and jobs?Guess whos job is secure by being good at it as opposed to being there the longest.Guess who can go get a job somewhere else and not have to give it up to my union brother who has seniority and needs a job.Guess who truly has the power to negotiate my salary and benefits and not be used as a pawn so someone else can get paid while causing friction between owner and employee.Simple fact is with our labor laws, unions today are not needed and have simply found a way to keep mindless welfare types in their rank and file to hold companies hostage to its workforce while collecting the ransom just to stay alive.The unions set the rules and all you guys get is what they GIVE you,not what you have earned or are worth.WAKE UP!!!!WAKE UP!!!!!
GM needs to file bankruptcy,kick out the unions and rehire back the good workers and pay them fair market wage.The corporate big wigs need to dump their bonuses and trim exec fat as well.
GM wont fold.As for my warranty I would be disappointed if I needed it and couldnt use it should GM fold however I do all my service work anyway( with the exception of my trans thanks to Mike L).

AS an ex union employee some 18 yrs ago (voted them out)I can say from experience and personal facts that the unions are run by leeches.I make $15 hr more than ANY union guy in my trade.Secondly there is none of the seniority crap to deal with.Guess who gets first dibs on vacation and jobs?Guess whos job is secure by being good at it as opposed to being there the longest.Guess who can go get a job somewhere else and not have to give it up to my union brother who has seniority and needs a job.Guess who truly has the power to negotiate my salary and benefits and not be used as a pawn so someone else can get paid while causing friction between owner and employee.Simple fact is with our labor laws, unions today are not needed and have simply found a way to keep mindless welfare types in their rank and file to hold companies hostage to its workforce while collecting the ransom just to stay alive.The unions set the rules and all you guys get is what they GIVE you,not what you have earned or are worth.WAKE UP!!!!WAKE UP!!!!!
GM needs to file bankruptcy,kick out the unions and rehire back the good workers and pay them fair market wage.The corporate big wigs need to dump their bonuses and trim exec fat as well.
GM wont fold.As for my warranty I would be disappointed if I needed it and couldnt use it should GM fold however I do all my service work anyway( with the exception of my trans thanks to Mike L).


That sums it up.Sounds like the union I know.Like I said before,THE UNION IS CORRUPT,AND ALL THEY DO IS HOG ALL THE PROFITS,FROM THESE DYING COMPANY'S.

I'd hate to be on a picket line or battlefield with these "it's all about me" types. I know you are young, smart, good looking too. You can care less about those "below" you. Unions, NO, hard working Americans that came before you fought and died for the standard of living that allows you to thumb your nose at the people that gave it to you. If you find democracy in theworkplace not to your liking, get involved. Make some changes. You wont find salvation licking the boots of da man. Stand up for yourself.

I'd hate to be on a picket line or battlefield with these "it's all about me" types. I know you are young, smart, good looking too. You can care less about those "below" you. Unions, NO, hard working Americans that came before you fought and died for the standard of living that allows you to thumb your nose at the people that gave it to you. If you find democracy in theworkplace not to your liking, get involved. Make some changes. You wont find salvation licking the boots of da man. Stand up for yourself.
thats BS, fact is the union workers cannot manage the company, they are hired hands who get taught a SIMPLE trade and use a trade repeatedly. If they didnt have to pay dues to the big union reps maybe they would obviously take more money home.

i love my union. our rate on the cheque will be $43 an hour next year. if you throw in benifits and pention on top of that it will be about $60/hr

All i can say working in the auto world the union is needed. GM is always trying to pull crap on us all the time thats against our contract. so if they will do that with a union there what will they do if we dont have a union? I have worked for GM for 10 years and have taken 2 pay cuts and cant remeber how many cost of living raises they have taken back. Took a big cut on benefits with this contract. went from paying 10 dollars a doctor visit to 100 dollars a visit with 5 in the family it adds up. Why doesnt upper mang. take pay cuts? CEO OF GM made 28million last year.

All i can say working in the auto world the union is needed. GM is always trying to pull crap on us all the time thats against our contract. so if they will do that with a union there what will they do if we dont have a union? I have worked for GM for 10 years and have taken 2 pay cuts and cant remeber how many cost of living raises they have taken back. Took a big cut on benefits with this contract. went from paying 10 dollars a doctor visit to 100 dollars a visit with 5 in the family it adds up. Why doesnt upper mang. take pay cuts? CEO OF GM made 28million last year.
My insurance rates went up as well as my wifes.
How many pay cuts do you think your union reps have taken?
Most of my uncles and grandparents were union members from back in the day.I know what they fought for and how the unions used to be.Much like our politicians they have become corrupt with OUR money.My family sees this and how bad it has become.Unions used to be run by the members(employees) and someone volunteered to be spokesperson.Now its become a full time job for them and you get stuck with the bill while they pretend to work for you.I was lied to my face by my supposed union brother rep regarding why negotiations were locked up.The union wanted to control all the money and were lying to us about what wages the company was willing to pay.The company released a letter to all of us stating what benefits and pay scale we would get with the union contract and what they would pay if we went non union. Guess which offer was considerably better? And I have never looked back.
Im sure your union rep tells you your contract is being screwed with.Heard that swan song as well.
Do yourself a favor.If you love your union so much.FIX IT!!
Get rid of all your reps and volunteer yourselves.Keep all that extra pay for yourselves and enjoy it.After all,it is your money.Shouldnt you be getting all of it ???????

You have read way too many anti-union web pages. Your type are all the same. You mix a little truth with a whole bunch of lies. If you believe the company just wants to be your friend if you would just get rid of that union, boy are you in for a rude awakning. UAW reps are employees. There are tons of volunteers in the union. I have done a lot of that work myself. Do you think you fill out an aplpication for "union rep"? They come right off the line. They worked next to you last week. As for keeping all your money for yourself. That is typical anti-union BS. Playing into your greed. I've got mine and I'm keeping it. To H*ll with anyone else. You need to find out a few facts about why you are able to drive a new truck. Before the unions built a middle class in this country you would be earning enough to eat on and that's all. I'm just a little sick of hearing the people that have beniffited from this standard of living cut it down.

Foreign auto manuf's in the Southern US that have setup shoe i.e. Honda, Toyota, BMW, M-Benz, etc. are all doing relatively well given the times and aren't anchored by unreasonable contracts with labor unions, dealerships, etc. The Big 3 have refused to be innovative or buck the norm for decades and will now pay for it. I have seen many interviews with workers at these Southern facilities and they all are happy and aren't being mistreated, they seem to like where they work. Now they probably aren't making 60-80 grand a year as a line worker, but a line worker shouldn't be making that to begin with, that is one of the Big 3's biggest problems.

GM (#1)has over three times the dealerships that Toyota (#2) has in the States. Ford and Chrysler are lower than Toyota in sales, but have about 2X the dealerships. In addition to ridiculous union labor contracts, the big 3 have anchored themselves to too many dealerships and dropping one, once a contract is signed in like trying to fire a tenured professor at a university. If a dealership is sucking hind tit, drop it. Makes sense right, that is how the rest of the business world works, right. Not with the Big 3.

Chapter 11, restructure the companies, renegotiate the UAW contracts to "real world" levels and lets see if they can be innovative. If not, I'll buy foreign I guess cause the Big 3 aren't going to make it without major changes.

No facts???? there draining the piss out these car plants,and wont even take a cut in pay.While the economy has hurt the big 3.Yet the union wont give a inch.There's your facts.Why does everbody blame bush? I see your a member....that explains why your but hurt.Like I said,if they did go under,the only good would be to wash them selfs of the union.A good explanation of what unions do to companys.Its like having a employee embezzle,your profits,yet its legal.


Again incorrect....they haven taken pay and benifit cuts over the last couple of contracts, this is a verifiable fact(obviously CEO's and upper management have not)...I live in Detroit...it is on the news everytime it happens. Please get informed, spewing nonsense and insults doesn't make you sound very intelligent. The unions set the standard of living which has been verified by every colliegate study(obviously they are not perfect but nothing ever is)...god help us all if they ever fold because corporate greed would have us all making $5 an hour with no one challenging them like the AFLCIO...just look at wall street. Please don't think the NLRB will be the watch dog...these are appointed positions which are certainly done with corporate influence like everything else in government today.

Yes but don't the sweet "standard of living" the union has made drive the price of goods up and the non-union people who don't get the big money?

I think the other thing is are we getting value for our dollar spend on a union made product?

Yes but don't the sweet "standard of living" the union has made drive the price of goods up and the non-union people who don't get the big money?

I think the other thing is are we getting value for our dollar spend on a union made product?

From the collieagate studies I have read the union wage brings up the non-union wage...ie sets the standard to bring all wages up. As far as driving the price up, it really does not. The vehicle is going to sell for what the market will bear, period...it may bring the profit per vehicle down. What is hurting the big three today is health care costs(which have sky rocketed for everyone and is a whole other issue) and retirement benefits. Since they have done so much down sizing they have very few active workers per retired members, if the ecomony was strong and they didn't have to do so much down sizing over the last 5 years, they would have a larger work force and this would be a non issue because the ratio of active worker to retired worker would be more inline covering costs. I do agree in the 80's(since we are talking about automobiles) quality among the big three was poor which created a public perception of poor quality that they have not been able to shake to this day. The fact is that today the quality among the big three and foreign manufacturers are virtually identical, however, public perception on this is that they still produce vehicles that are not as durable as their foreign counterparts. In this global market many of the parts on foreign and domestic vehicles are made by the same suppliers and are of equal quality if not the exact same parts. To further skew the misinformation on quality you have biased publications like Consumers Reports that make reccomendations and reviews that are at the very least inaccurate. They have been caught and forced to print retractions but the damage is already done. An example of that would be the Pontiac Vibe which they had rated as being of poor quality and the Toyota Matrix which they had rated as being of excellant quality. They are basically the same car...just different trim and badging. Well many people don't or didn't know that they were the same car with the same engine and drive train just different trim and badgeing. Consumers report had to issue a retraction but the damage was done.

The one thing I can say is they all have issues no matter who makes it, I have had 5GMC, 1Chevrolet, 2Pontiac, 1Cadillac, 2Audi, 8Mitsubishi and they all have had ups and downs.


But even if the non-union wage comes up to match the union wage it makes all goods cost more and starts a bit of a cycle.

Maybe if everybody would of just kept on buying american made products rather than JAP CRAP we wouldnt be in this spot. Example The CHEVY MALIBU is about 1000 dollars cheaper than the TOYOTA CAMREY on average. GM says it costs them 1600 dollars a car for the benefits of there hourly workers and retirees. TOYOTA says it costs them 200 dollars a car for benefits for there hourly workers. Why so cheap NO RETIREES. Now the wonderfull JAP CRAP sends all there profits over seas. Where GM KEEPS IT IN THE US. I myself would rather see my money spent on an american worker than being shipped over seas.

JAP CRAP is really a weak term.

Not Japan's fault people want Toyota, Honda etc..


I use my car for racing, the big 3 offer nothing that is fast/well priced so what do I do? Yes a corvette is the best bang for the buck but more than I want to spend on a track only car right now, too bad they did not make a bunch of good handling cars 5-10 years ago that I could choose from.

Both my street cars are GM right now because they fit the bill and the price fell so fast I could afford a nice used one, I like GM and will buy again but it has to be good for my needs. Buying a new car hurts when you drive off the lot and buying a new domestic hurts more I think in terms of resale, that does not help them either.

I just wish GM would make more AWD stuff in the cars, but all in all I love their product I just wish the rest of the country would give them a chance.

conedoctor i understand. It seems alot of the time the big 3 are always coming up with the ideas last. Remeber 2 years straight GM has built the car of the year. With saturn aura and then the chevy malibu. So hopefully gm is coming around on there quality.

You have read way too many anti-union web pages. Your type are all the same. You mix a little truth with a whole bunch of lies. If you believe the company just wants to be your friend if you would just get rid of that union, boy are you in for a rude awakning. UAW reps are employees. There are tons of volunteers in the union. I have done a lot of that work myself. Do you think you fill out an aplpication for "union rep"? They come right off the line. They worked next to you last week. As for keeping all your money for yourself. That is typical anti-union BS. Playing into your greed. I've got mine and I'm keeping it. To H*ll with anyone else. You need to find out a few facts about why you are able to drive a new truck. Before the unions built a middle class in this country you would be earning enough to eat on and that's all. I'm just a little sick of hearing the people that have beniffited from this standard of living cut it down.
I dont read anti-union web pages.My thoughts are from personal experience with the unions.And my union reps did not work in my field.I make considerably more an hour than my union shop friends because I do excellent work and have high end clientele that only deal with me.
Yeah Ive got mine and I am trying to help enlighten you on how to get ALL of yours.I train people regularly to become better and command a higher wage.Selfish and greedy arent I? Is that anti-union-NO,its pro American.Pro capitalist.Work hard,work good,get paid well.
Thats how I bought a new truck among other things.
My employer is not my friend either.We have had some long negotiations regarding my salary and benefits.But guess what,I got what I wanted and didnt have to pay any dues to a union reps.
If you had any F#&@ing balls you would take the bull by the horns and quit letting the union give you an allowance.
Or perhaps you realize that if the unions were gone you wouldnt be getting paid anywhere near what you are because you arent that skilled to begin with.
As far as American made vehicles compared to the Jap crap as you guys call it,I recommend you work on a few like I do.
US car makers have come a long way but still have a ways to go.I get to work on all the new models and get to see all the little quirks they have.Noticeable difference in quality.

:funnypost If that's the case why are you driving a Chevy, maybe because you can push a Tunda door panel in with one hand...lol? I too have worked on all and completely disagree. Also Union principles transcend the whole "me" attitude. Their objective is to help ones brothers and sisters by everyone succeeding together...helping one another and raising standards for the community as a whole. Obviously your primary concern is for yourself and I am glad that works for you. Just as you don't want to be part of a union...I wouldn't want you to be a member of mine because your priorities and ours don't mesh. God help you if for some reason you are disabled, can't work and run out of whatever benefits you had. Proud member IBEW L.U.58 Detroit

i come from a union family and when i get out of the militay im going back to work for the union. wont work for anyone else. as far as being unskilled thats a personal opinion. i cant say much for the UAW never worked for them. but ill back the union any day of the week.

jfarr, I wouldn't believe all the talk of Toyota ect workers being so happy. Many of the workers in their plants are temps making $11/hr. Some get welfare while holding full time jobs. That and a few other tricks are how the media show the huge wage differance between the transplants and American auto workers. The ones that get too old or slow to run that line are just gotten rid of. They sure aren't going to draw a retirement from Toyota.
Why do you think it's OK for Toyota to set wages in America. It might be that you make too much and maybe we can see if they can get your wages down.
As far as dealerships, man that lie is sure making the rounds. State laws, not GMs choise, defines the contracts with dealers. Toyota is bound by the same laws.

I'm glad to see the comment on Consumer Reports. For years, as they were forced to reveal, have been rating Jap cars without full reports. This has caused them to lower the ratings on many Jap cars and trucks. I'm sure you have read the reports of bad engines, tailgates, rusted frames, ect. ect. in Jap trucks. Toyota is now number two in recalls.

conedoctor, Why has the economy thrived over the last 50 years when unions were dominate and now the economy is in such trouble and workers see wages reduced, pensions gone and healthcare disappear? Think about that for a few minutes.

demp223, I don't know if you were scared by a big union official at some point in your life or what. It's quite clear you hate working people. I don't know what to say for you except maybe you should read a little about your beloved capital system and the effects it had on working people and why many workers decided to share a little bit of that money you are trying to beat someone out of and make a better life for their fellow Americans. Why does democracy in the workplace upset you so? You sure have proffited from it.

"i love my union. our rate on the cheque will be $43 an hour next year. if you throw in benifits and pention on top of that it will be about $60/hr"


""Again incorrect....they haven taken pay and benifit cuts over the last couple of contracts, this is a verifiable fact""

Yeah!!!! dont know what "New channel" your watching,But I seen were the union wants to negotiate there contract...and yes they want more money,in a time were GM is on the brink of going under.For the post above,looks like they didnot catch the band wagon of pay cuts,huh LT3 Diesel?

It's called CNN and it is a "NEWS CHANNEL" not a "NEW CHANNEL" maybe that is why you are having a hard time following 03LB.....and remember I live here where it happens...things make the news here inregards to GM that don't else where in the country. And as far as the pay cuts...not every union is involved in and around automobiles. My union sent me to school for 5 years and I worked very hard before I ever even reached full scale. As skilled labor if we negotiate a contract that is good for both employers and employees everyone wins and makes money....so don't be jealous because you never applied yourself and joined a union and cannot make $40 an hour, that was your choice because you hate unions so much.

Guess we have to agree to disagree.

[quote=jmrkav;2995974]jfarr, I wouldn't believe all the talk of Toyota ect workers being so happy. Many of the workers in their plants are temps making $11/hr. Some get welfare while holding full time jobs. That and a few other tricks are how the media show the huge wage differance between the transplants and American auto workers. The ones that get too old or slow to run that line are just gotten rid of. They sure aren't going to draw a retirement from Toyota.
Why do you think it's OK for Toyota to set wages in America. It might be that you make too much and maybe we can see if they can get your wages down.

Never said Toyota should set wages in America, can't your read?? My point is that Toyota and many other foreign auto companies are setting up shop in the US, providing jobs for American workers, tax revenues to American gvt agencies, supporting the surrounding American economies, and seem to be performing much better than the Big 3. I work for a living too, but I don't have a union demanding I get paid a ridiculous wage for a low skill, line worker type position. If you can't cut it at a job, then you should be let go. I don't have a pension either, and you don't here me crying about it.

Unions did a great job in the beginning of this country's industrial revolution in protecting the American worker. For the past few decades though, IMHO, unions (UAW in particular) have ruined the automotive industry. Chapter 11, restructure and good riddance to the status quo.

"Gettelfinger said the union will suspend the "jobs bank" at GM. That is a jobs guarantee program that pays laid off auto workers up to 95% of their regular pay. He said the union is also open to suspending the jobs bank at Ford and Chrysler. But he said this and other help from the union is not enough to save the automakers from their current crisis."

Taken from article today, Gettelfinger is UAW president. Article talks about the UAW willing to make concessions to help out Big 3. Are you believing this, why don't we all have a "job bank". Sure would be nice to be guaranteed 95% of your salary, after being laid off from your job. What planet do these people live on??? The Big 3 are totally to blame for accepting all this BS for so long, screw 'em! They shouldn't get one penny of my tax dollars.

The only reason foreign car manufatures have any plants in the USA is because the have to inorder to import as many cars as they want. They are required to by law if they want to import a high number of cars and avoid large tarriffs. Just another way to get around paying tarriffs. Believe me they won't have any more plants here than they absolutely have to.

Also it is NOT a Bail out....it is a LOAN which will collect interest. Trust me they will get it because if they fail millions of jobs will be lost...not just GM employees. The big three keep all sorts of business afloat....to many to list.

Proud Member Of Uaw Local 31! Home Of The #1 Car Of The Year 2 Years In A Row.

Did we ever figure out if our warranties would be voided or not? I am fixing to buy a 07.

It's called CNN and it is a "NEWS CHANNEL" not a "NEW CHANNEL" maybe that is why you are having a hard time following 03LB.....and remember I live here where it happens...things make the news here inregards to GM that don't else where in the country. And as far as the pay cuts...not every union is involved in and around automobiles. My union sent me to school for 5 years and I worked very hard before I ever even reached full scale. As skilled labor if we negotiate a contract that is good for both employers and employees everyone wins and makes money....so don't be jealous because you never applied yourself and joined a union and cannot make $40 an hour, that was your choice because you hate unions so much.


Everbody happy??? The union wants more money from GM...wounder how the employes feel,That will realy help out GM.I dont care what kinda of preaching you can spill about the union.If they go under,they need to rid them selfs of the union,then employe's and manufacture will be happy.As for me...No I dont make $40 an hour,but I bet I make more than you,and Im not unionfied...As for "Applied my self" I own my own business,and yes its doing good!

My father worked for GM for 20 years (Ft. Wayne assembly plant) as a carpenter. Swears by the union, votes the way the union tells him to. You would think he would starve if the union didn't tell him when it was time to eat. Thinks all big business, and therefore all upper management, is corrupt and looking to screw the little guy, because that is what the union has always told him.

Then he would tell me stories about some of the lazy assholes he worked with. How they would hide from the boss and sleep on the job for several hours a day. How they would steal things from the company. How some of the harder working younger guys would get laid off before the lazy bums that had more seniority.

I don't get it. Never have. I have never been able to get him to understand that I moved up in my field by working hard, becoming more efficient, and proving my worth to my company to get me good raises and bonuses every year. AND THAT HE COULD TOO, IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE STUPID UNION PROTECTING THE LAZY!

I swear they are all brainwashed. It's the only logical explanation. Either that, or they are one of the lazy bums I have heard so much about.

You decide.

Survival of the fittest not most senior.

What people are saying is they need the best people working for them and the job protection is doing a good job, dump the dead weight that is protected from getting fired.

Unions could work but they need some protection for the company as well as the member, I bet the union would not like it if every time a contract came up they had to worry about being locked out?

Odd in these slow times I have not heard the work strike in a long time.

Don't get me wrong I am not a GM or union hater but both need some work right?

FYI...most unions work nothing like the UAW. I had to go to school for 5 years before my union would accept me as a journeyman, where the state only requires 4 years...why do they do that? Because they want only the best trained in their ranks and the most dedicated....as far as job protection goes, our employers can simply lay a guy off if he is not a performer and call the hall and get someone who will....guess what everyone performs or you won't work...don't get me wrong they better have a good reason to fire someone but they can lay you off at will. The misguided perception that unions are full of non performers is far from true. The UAW has made many mistakes but those mistakes are not indicative of most unions. and as far as 03LB making more money than me...good for you...hope you do...but trust me that I make more than $40 an hour... and I have a hell of a pension...add in some overtime and I doubt you do but if you do who really cares.

Did we ever figure out if our warranties would be voided or not? I am fixing to buy a 07.

If they file bankruptcy our warranties certainly could be voided. this question was asked on CCN the other day to a few experts and they said it certainly could happen in bankruptcy...their obligations are all subject to dismisall.

:funnypost If that's the case why are you driving a Chevy, maybe because you can push a Tunda door panel in with one hand...lol? I too have worked on all and completely disagree. Also Union principles transcend the whole "me" attitude. Their objective is to help ones brothers and sisters by everyone succeeding together...helping one another and raising standards for the community as a whole. Obviously your primary concern is for yourself and I am glad that works for you. Just as you don't want to be part of a union...I wouldn't want you to be a member of mine because your priorities and ours don't mesh. God help you if for some reason you are disabled, can't work and run out of whatever benefits you had. Proud member IBEW L.U.58 Detroit
You truly are an idiot.I drive a Chevy dually because I tow a heavy trailer and off road car and its Duramax motor combined with Allison trans are best in my opinion.FYI my uncle worked for Detroit diesel/Allison (union member for yrs).Secondly I seriously doubt you have worked on every model of vehicle from each manufacturer for the last 20 yrs as I have.Let alone all the cars since the model T as I have.Pick any mass produced car and I bet I have worked on it plus quite a few exotics.Can you claim that level of experience?And matchbox cars dont count.When was the last time you pushed on a Tundra door panel?Guess what??
The Chevy panel flexes just as much.
You keep calling everyone who doesnt agree with the union mentality of brotherhood greedy and all about me.
And I keep telling you that I help fellow employees become better to make a better living.Difference is I dont charge them for it or the company.YOU ARE THE GREEDY ONE AND WILL BE THE END OF YOUR OWN COMPANIES EXISTENCE.
God help me?NO my friend --God help you.Your union mentality greed will be your demise and hopefully your brothers will help you like they say once you are unemployed.
Anyway Im done with this.You have been brainwashed to believe that anyone who isnt union is evil and greedy.No matter how much I tell you its just the opposite and how much I help others(FOR FREE) you will continue to believe your union mantra.Good luck with that.I got work to do.
One last thing.5 yrs of school to be a journeyman,HAHAHA.Try 10 yrs field work and training with a proven quality record for my field.
UAW only wants the best on their lines?Is that why our diffs came low on oil?Screws loose?Panels misaligned,loose?Wire harness's not properly secured or insulated?I could go on and on but we all know the little problems we have to fix thanks to the HIGHLY trained best of the best union workers.
NUFF said!!!

:funnypost :Insane:Obviously you have a comprehension issue among many, many others....I don't work for the UAW...GM or any other car manufacturer....I am not gonna sink to your level and sling names. Your posts say all there is to say about you and your ability to communicate, therefore, I see no need to respond to your post.

:funnypost :Insane:Obviously you have a comprehension issue among many, many others....I don't work for the UAW...GM or any other car manufacturer....I am not gonna sink to your level and sling names. Your posts say all there is to say about you and your ability to communicate, therefore, I see no need to respond to your post.
But yet you still did respond.Funny.
I have a comprehension problem?Where did I say YOU worked for UAW????Perhaps you need to reread what I wrote and COMPREHEND it!!!!
However for an IBEW guy you sure do know alot about UAW and its inner workings and have enormous experience working on all cars.Or do you have the same book as the rest of the unions and keep telling the lie hoping everyone else will come drink the Koolaid and get their new shoes.Sorry,I didnt fall for it 20 yrs ago and am not gonna fall for it now.
I do apologize for calling you an idiot.You are just misinformed.

Pretty sad when all the union haters can do is bad mouth working people while they bask in the economy that the hard working union people have brought them. This of coarse is nothing new. Labor has been up and down over the last 100 years. Usually a good depression wipes the smirks off the union haters faces when they find themselves in the ditch.

jscheumann shame on you. I hope your father doesn't read these posts. You grew up and became the "success" you are due to a hard working union man and then you ridicule him? I hate to inform you but every place I have ever worked had a few workers like your Dad discribed. Union and non-union. In the non-union workplaces it was the biggest suck *ss or relative. Maybe it's like that at the place you work but your Dad didn't want to live like that. I admire him.

FYI...most unions work nothing like the UAW. I had to go to school for 5 years before my union would accept me as a journeyman, where the state only requires 4 years...why do they do that? Because they want only the best trained in their ranks and the most dedicated....as far as job protection goes, our employers can simply lay a guy off if he is not a performer and call the hall and get someone who will....guess what everyone performs or you won't work...don't get me wrong they better have a good reason to fire someone but they can lay you off at will. The misguided perception that unions are full of non performers is far from true. The UAW has made many mistakes but those mistakes are not indicative of most unions. and as far as 03LB making more money than me...good for you...hope you do...but trust me that I make more than $40 an hour... and I have a hell of a pension...add in some overtime and I doubt you do but if you do who really cares.

Right more than $40 an hour..LOL!!! Dont worry about me,Im doing good.I have a hell of a retirment too.The thing is...im not some one's Bit*h,im my own boss,and I cant get fired for no reason...like the union's do.

I think you guys keep missing the point that it is TODAYS unions that we dont like.The unions my grandparents and uncles worked in are not the same today.They complain about it regularly how much it has become corrupted and how the union reps tell them what they are going to do and not ask what it is they would like.I saw it first hand myself.The unions were to protect the employee but we have labor laws that do the same thing.They have succeeded in their original intentions but the money and power has corrupted them and they cant back off.They have upset the natural balance of the free market by driving costs through the roof.
Combined with tax rates its understandable why business is leaving this country and American Made has lost its world ranking.Its a shame.

Like I said. Brainwashed.

My point, jmrkav, is that the union my father worked for both protects the lazy, and holds back the top performers. He could never grasp the fact on the latter (probably because the union convinced him that without the union, he and his family would have nothing - or much less - to which I say, bullshit).

My father knows exactly how I feel about the union he worked for. Nobody will convince me that it didn't have its place more than 60 years ago, but neither will they convince me that my father couldn't have done better for himself without the union holding him back. Nor will they convince me that our vehicles don't cost WAY more than they need to because of the union (at least in part - upper management deserves some of the blame there as well). People should be smart enough to save/plan for their retirement without requiring the company to provide a pension. I don't believe the percentage of people that have pensions coming to them in their future retirements is very high.

With my company, at least when somebody under-performs they can be included in the next round of layoffs, unlike the UAW.

My father is the most hardworking man I have ever known, and takes great pride in his work (it just made him sick to see the lazy SOBs take advantage of the "union rules", but he never did anything about it because "union brothers don't tattle on each other").

He knows how I feel about him and his work ethic. A very upright Christian as well. But to vote democrat (just because of that union way-of-life) for decades, when his Christian beliefs told him to vote against the party that supports gay rights, abortion rights, etc., just boggles my mind. I can't imagine how hard it must have been for him to vote for Obama.

I say let them file for bankruptcy and lose the union. It's time to trim the fat.

BTW, all my vehicles are GM, with the exception of an old Dodge pickup. I still believe in buying American when possible. I don't want to see profits going to other countries any more than the next American worker.

But yet you still did respond.Funny.
I have a comprehension problem?Where did I say YOU worked for UAW????Perhaps you need to reread what I wrote and COMPREHEND it!!!!
However for an IBEW guy you sure do know alot about UAW and its inner workings and have enormous experience working on all cars.Or do you have the same book as the rest of the unions and keep telling the lie hoping everyone else will come drink the Koolaid and get their new shoes.Sorry,I didnt fall for it 20 yrs ago and am not gonna fall for it now.
I do apologize for calling you an idiot.You are just misinformed.

I do have a good understanding of the UAW and GM. My grandfather was in the FlINT SIT DOWN STRIKE that Unionized GM...these are the guys that died for the labor rights you take for granted today....and my father, uncles, and siblings work for them as well. I have forgot more about them than you may ever know and that is sad because people gave so much to be so unappreciated. And as far as working on cars I worked as a mechanic at several dealerships prior to finding my real calling....I have a hard time believing anyone who says they are the best at this or that...but maybe you are the nations top mechanic....but from my experiance those that truely are the best don't usually have to tell you they are. The truely great ones let their knowledge and skill do the talking.

I think you guys keep missing the point that it is TODAYS unions that we dont like.The unions my grandparents and uncles worked in are not the same today.They complain about it regularly how much it has become corrupted and how the union reps tell them what they are going to do and not ask what it is they would like.I saw it first hand myself.The unions were to protect the employee but we have labor laws that do the same thing.They have succeeded in their original intentions but the money and power has corrupted them and they cant back off.They have upset the natural balance of the free market by driving costs through the roof.
Combined with tax rates its understandable why business is leaving this country and American Made has lost its world ranking.Its a shame.


Labor laws are subject to change...always....the members of the NLRB(which are appointed positions) make those changes or atleast interpret and enforce. They are appointed by the current administration. So if you have a president that is sympathetic to big business(which is very common today..corporatism...which is really what has brought this country to it's knees) just watch those rights dwindle away if you have no unions and organizations like the AFLCIO to act as a watchdog and challenge them in court...our union dollars have on more instances than you can count, gone to fight against anti labor laws that big business try to get passed or manipulate. The real reason American business has left the US is because of the free trade agreements....I have very few bad things to say about Clinton...I think he was a very good president but he mistakenly opened the door with the North American Free Trade Agreement....I am sure he never meant it to be used as it has been and that the few protections in it for our country would go unenforced. President Bush then signed more than 35 of the same agreements with other countries....that is why there is a mass exodus of jobs from our country to countries with cheap slave labor. Guess what? Even with those companies paying pennies per hour...those same products still cost just as much or more.....these companies now just make huge profits because a company is going to sell an item for what the market will bear....whether it cost $5 or $75 in labor to produce they will still sell it for $500 if they can.

Right more than $40 an hour..LOL!!! Dont worry about me,Im doing good.I have a hell of a retirment too.The thing is...im not some one's Bit*h,im my own boss,and I cant get fired for no reason...like the union's do.

Are you serious? I have a real hard time understanding you. Your all over the place.....do have a point to make?

Pretty sad when all the union haters can do is bad mouth working people while they bask in the economy that the hard working union people have brought them. This of coarse is nothing new. Labor has been up and down over the last 100 years. Usually a good depression wipes the smirks off the union haters faces when they find themselves in the ditch.

Dude, really?

I might as well be talking to a wall.YOU just dont get it and clearly cant read.

The union only makes up for 10% of the auto costs. So dont say the union is all to blame. You want to say we make 74 dollars an hour. The truth is they get that number by adding the hourly workers and retirees and retirees surviving spouses benefits together and dividing that by the number of hours we worked last year and thats the number they come up with. G.M. said today that the hourlys rates with benefits are between 35 and 54 dollars an hour. Thats the same as toyota and honda. The goverment needs to take some blame also. S.KOREA is aloud to send 669,000 cars to the U.S. a year as we are only aloud to ship just under 6000 cars to S.KOREA a year. Thats under the fair trade act. Whats fair about that? PLEASE STOP SAYING YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE BIG 3 GO UNDER. I WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE ANY OF YOU LOSE YOUR JOB.

Are you serious? I have a real hard time understanding you. Your all over the place.....do have a point to make?

If dont get my point,then why the hell do you keep responding?

The union only makes up for 10% of the auto costs. So dont say the union is all to blame. You want to say we make 74 dollars an hour. The truth is they get that number by adding the hourly workers and retirees and retirees surviving spouses benefits together and dividing that by the number of hours we worked last year and thats the number they come up with. G.M. said today that the hourlys rates with benefits are between 35 and 54 dollars an hour. Thats the same as toyota and honda. The goverment needs to take some blame also. S.KOREA is aloud to send 669,000 cars to the U.S. a year as we are only aloud to ship just under 6000 cars to S.KOREA a year. Thats under the fair trade act. Whats fair about that? PLEASE STOP SAYING YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE BIG 3 GO UNDER. I WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE ANY OF YOU LOSE YOUR JOB.

If your talking about me,I dont want them to go under,If they do it would be a restructure,not a complet deminish of the Big 3.I want the cancer (Union) gone.Thats all im saying.

And by whom?

The U.S. govt. It's part of the $700 Billion bail-out! :rolleyes:

jscheumann, I'm not sure how someone who says they are from a union family can be so clueless about unions. Basics. UAW workers that don't do their jobs or are constant screw ups can aand are fired just like anyone else. Of coarse the unions job is to represent that person much as a lawyer would. This is required by federal law. The union cannot make the decission on their own that the worker is guilty. The unions job is to make sure that manegment is following a fair process that is agreed to by both the union and the company. Now, that is not to say that ,like any man made system, abuses do not occur. Should we get rid of the constitution because some don't adhere to it? Get rid of churches since some do not live up to their faith? With a union you have a much better chance of a fair hearing of your grievences. Democracy in the workplace. Your father understood that.

Seniority seems to be a concept way beyond you. Yes, seniority can hold a worker back. So can the speed limit. I think I could drive at any speed I want. Traffic lights just hold me back. But I know that I'm not the only one on the road. Little old ladies who can just see over the wheel, the young kid that thinks he's a lot more skilled than he is, the guy that had a fight with his girlfriend. We all share the road. Maturity tells me that to have a road that everyone can have a chance on I must accept some limits. Prior to senority, kissing *ss, buying jobs and nepotism defined many workers chances for advancement. Your father understood that.

I'm not suggesting that you run out and join a union. It's not for everyone and I wouldn't want you as my union brother given a choise. That is why they have managment jobs. That job is to maximise proffits and take care of buisiness. The union is the balance that prevents capitalism from eating itself as we have recently seen in this economy. There is no other protection for most workers.

wasn't this a thread about warranties? It has long since been hijacked.

One last post on this for me and I'm out on this thread. To those of you that think this is a "loan" that will be repaid (Execs for Big 3 said by 2012 in front of Congress yesterday) and not a "bailout", consider this:

Market share value of Big 3 as of Wed this week (value of all shares) was approx. $12-14 billion. If you were a multi-billionaire, you could own all of the Big 3 for that amount.

Big 3 are currently in debt to the tune of $49-50 billion and are now asking for another $34 billion that they will pay back by 2012.

Just a few weeks ago they were asking for $25 billion when they all flew to DC on their Gulfstreams. So they need another $9 billion in a three week period??????????

I am no economist, but the numbers simply don't work. This money certainly will not be paid back by 2012, that is a ridiculous statement. This money IMHO will never be repaid in full and may not be paid back in any significant percentage unless the Big 3 are forced to completely revamp the entire way they do business, including the union contracts.

If we the US taxpayer pony up $34 billion that we likely won't ever get back, as of right now we have paid more than twice what the Big 3 are worth. In my mind, that means we the taxpayers now fully own the Big 3 and should be able to determine exactly how they will proceed in the future. I personally think it is ridiculous to dump over twice their value into them as they continue to spiral down the drain. If the gvt gives them this money, then the gvt should own them and demand drastic changes in production, type of vehicles, no more union contracts, etc etc etc. When the money is paid back to a point that the gvt is no longer a controlling share holder, then the Big 3 can start making their own decisions again.

The biggest problem with the government owning the Big 3 is that the union would be in complete control.Dont forget our country just went Democrat(union).Gotta love the Obamanation and its followers

i just ate a whole big bag of m&m"s-:t while reading all eleven pages of this arguing and i gotta tell you my head hurts:duh: and my ass itches.:Moon:

i just ate a whole big bag of m&m"s-:t while reading all eleven pages of this arguing and i gotta tell you my head hurts:duh: and my ass itches.:Moon:
You know what???^^^^^^Thats funny!!!!:):ro)

Looks like the UAW,Is the death of GM. Wont back down in pay cuts.

Looks like the UAW,Is the death of GM. Wont back down in pay cuts.


No, I'd say several right wing southern republican senators from right to work for less, union busting states are going to try to sink middle class America. It's a shame as you drive around the south, mobile homes, junk trucks in the driveways. You wonder how long these good hard working people are going to play the fool for people like Corker. He of coarse is living pretty good.

Its funny half the people down here came from union mills that are no longer running...

guys you just cant hate the UAW...$22/hr is decent $ down here in the south but up north that aint a whole lot....as an long time teamster i will say that there are just as many overpaid office postions in the hierarchy just like there are in GM's corp office...there is no man worth multimillion dollars a year...its the "workers" who make these companies great...and by no means do i think every dues payin union member should make $50k+ a year ..its called a fair days pay for a fair days work..just my .02