After looking into how to further improve the Allison, it become quite apparent that something was being overlooked and quite honestly, its a wonder why it has gone unaddressed this long. Its pretty obvious to anybody that has done these if you know what to look for.

Look at picture 1. Its a typical C3 clutch removed from an Allison that may have been hotrodded a bit in stock form. C4 would be the same clutch. Notice the dark marks which indicate clutch slippage. 99 times out of a 100 the inside diameter will have darker marks then the outside of the diameter. What does that mean? The inside of the clutch is working harder then the outside.

Look at picture 2. Its the OEM spring plate thats common in the C3 and C4 clutch pack. The large tab at the 12 o clock position is actually where the piston return spring mounts to the plate. There is 3 of these on the plate equally spaced.

Picture 3 kind of gives another view of the same thing we see in picture one.

Picture 4 show the stock steel plate that goes between the frictions in the c3/4 clutch pack. Notice where the hot spots are in the plate. The large open area's in the plate are where the return springs are. Notice that most if not all the heat marks are in between the open spots on the plate. Also, there concentrated on the inner diameter. So, now we know from looking at used plates that the inner diameter of the clutch seems to be doing more work then the outside and that the steel plates only seem to be working in the area between the spring openings. Wow, thats quite a bit of wasted clutch area huh? Its safe to say that only about 50 % of the aval clutch area is being used effectively?

So, what have we learned? Lets look at how the operation of the clutch works. The springplate is against the apply piston and the springs push on the backplate. That is the thick plate that is removed after removing the snap ring(s). When you take a plate and push on it in three spots around the outside area, what happens? The plate convex's and will actually warp under the pressure of the springs. This does not allow even apply of the clutches and hence you get the wear pattern as shown in the first couple of pictures. No matter how many clutches you have, your only using 50% of the avail surface area so if you have 6 clutches, you are only taking advantage of 3 of them. The fix is so simple, I cant believe its taken this long.....

Pic 5 shows a new plate that has been developed. Its thicker to help maintain its shape under loaded conditions. Of course to make room for this thicker plate, other changes have to be made and thus a friction has been removed from the C3 pack. Instead of 7, now there is 6. Which is still an improvement over the 4 that is stock. But while a friction is being removed, the capacity of the clutch is actually increased.

Pic 6 shows the new plate compared with the old plate.

Joe told me that kits/units built after today should come standard with these plates.

In house testing has shown good results so far, with proven gains on the scan tool by looking at the adaptive pressure and clutch capacities.

No reverse engineering here or trick anodizing for effect, just stuff that works.

So are you trying to say that your replacing the spring plate with a thicker than stock unit?

with this be in all the products? i.e. sc 3 thanks

So was i just weeks too early with my SCIV?

Looking at the pictures I'm not sure but it looks like the pressure plate is what's thicker? My question would have to be how did it get that thin to begin with? The stock unit is much thicker. The stock unit only will handle 4 clutches, that's all the room there is. So are what you telling us now is that in order to install 7 clutches they made things too thin, looks like they went too far. The pistons on both C3 and C4 press on the spring plate in two locations to stop it from distorting, one pressure point is all around the inside and the other is all around the outer area so I cannot see the spring plate thickness doing much of anything.

Steve, the spring plate stock is about .150" and this plate is about .250" I could be off a bit on the stock plate measurement a bit. The back plate is cut as is the apply piston to give room for the extra clutches. ALong with the ever debated Kolene steels are only about .067 vs the stock at .099 or so.

I agree with you that there is two pressure points, but the spring perches are outboard of that yet, so is prone to some distortion. I looked at over 100 clutches/frictions I have laying around that have been removed from various levels of stock abused transmissions and most of them have the same wear in the same places...

I think the C3 is burning on the release due to shift timing in the TCM. I think Allison is well aware that they have a problem but it's not much of a problem in normal trucks that do what they are suppose to. I think the BorgWarner lining is designed to take that punishment and live even though they burn, once again in a normal truck. I believe the fact that the Allison does not have pressure rise on torque demand ( Ally is fixed at 250 psi ) is another reason C3 burns or for that fact C2 also. I also think that all the clutch return springs should be stronger for a quicker release,but it would have to be calibrated. The C3 and C4 apply pistons are rubber molded steel and they are what we call floater pistons. When the pressure comes up under them they sort of float up to the spring plate and apply the clutch. The pressure port that applys the C3 and C4 clutch is at the bottom of the piston and can concievably cock on the first contact and cause a slip. I think the answer to all of this is in the TCM with some help in the trans. Joe's new idea looks good and I like the fact that we will be using less clutches. I still think C3 will burn.

I hate to break this to you but who do you really think is going to win in the distortion here, The piston with 100 psi of fluid pressure pressing in two place around the spring plate or three sets of springs with about 5 pounds of total force pushing on the outside tabs beyond where the piston hits? Your picture #2 pretty much shows who wins, as there are no burn marks on that spring steel! So if it was distorted, there would be burn marks but since there are none.......................... I rest my case. I've look at lots of C3 and C4 clutch packs and I do see just what you've shown to a tee! You just need to look at what's there to make the proper deduction as to what's happening. So what you have shown is just what I've said all along the steels are getting too hot and distorting, so why would anyone in there right mind make them thinner to start with?

back to the question then.. for the sake of me understanding.... What causes the spots in the steels to only be at certain points? Just trying to gain knowledge here is all.

Maybe it dont matter at all?

No, it does matter. We all have to learn as we go but, it's very important to look at all the data before jumping to conclusions. First, like I said if the spring steel was distorted the hot spots would be there as well as everywhere else but since they are not it's got to be something else. Now let's look at the pressure plate since it's at the other end of whats going on, no hot spots again. So what could cause the hots spots only in the middle of the clutch pack? Well it could be heat build up because each end of the pack would be the coolest place, so that makes some sense. Now what's causing the heat in the middle, must be clutch slippage. So what controls clutch slippage, apply time and pressure. So you need to be able to handle the heat generated by what ever slippage is designed to happen within the clutch pack or change the amount of allowed slippage to generate less heat. Since the ECM controls that amount of apply time, until its reprogrammed thats not going to change. Also the ECM controls the trim valves that apply the pressure to the clutch packs so your not going to be able to change that either. So your left with dealing with the heat generated in the clutch pack. It needs to be lowered or current steels will distort and clutches will have hot spots on them. Adding more clutch will help reduce the slippage back to stock times/levels but no further as the ECM takes over again. So once you reach that point your done. So all that is left is to deal with the heat, use something that will take the heat and not distort and a thinner steel is just going the wrong direction.

Looking at the pictures I'm not sure but it looks like the pressure plate is what's thicker? My question would have to be how did it get that thin to begin with? The stock unit is much thicker. The stock unit only will handle 4 clutches, that's all the room there is. So are what you telling us now is that in order to install 7 clutches they made things too thin, looks like they went too far. The pistons on both C3 and C4 press on the spring plate in two locations to stop it from distorting, one pressure point is all around the inside and the other is all around the outer area so I cannot see the spring plate thickness doing much of anything.
Diesel tech,

The pictures are of OEM steels and frictions. How did the apply plate get that thin? (.125) you will have to ask Borg Warner they designed it. "The stock unit is much thicker." You are looking at the stock unit. These photos are of the OEM clutch pack so "they" ? have not done anything. Your lack of vision on spring plate thickness is something you need to resolve.

Mike, I totally disagree that the the C-3 stress is seen on the release. The frictions in the photos ARE Borg Warner. I am sure you have seen this scenerio on just about every stock unit you tear down. We do not focus on "normal" trans since we build trans products for "abnormal" trucks. If you increase the return spring pressure with oem apply plate you will only intensify the problem. The C3/C4 pistons do not really float. The backfill oil (2 psi) keeps the piston against the apply plate any time the pump is turning. Unless we invalidate Pascal's law the location of pressure feed has absolutly no affect. The piston will always move evenly. A certain person to the north has been hyping this inaccuracy about the 618 direct piston, then he wants to expound on "Pascal's law". Too funny.

Diesel tech,

Your (5 lbs total spring force) is totally inaccurate. There is 60 Lbs on each tab for a 120 lb total. On just about any wet clutch pack the friction surfaces against the piston and or pressure plate on each end will show the smallest amount of stress because the piston/pressure plate adjacent to the surface carry's more heat away. The distortion is clearly evident if you care to look.
By your statements so far I assume you are under the illusion that you are seeing something other than OEM frictions and reaction plates.
Another misconception you have alluded to in the past is that the heat is dispersed by convection between the reaction plates and the case. Any heat dispersed in this method is nominal. Wet clutchs depend almost totally on fluid to carry heat away. The burn marks on the inside periphpery clearly indicates ther is little contact on the outer diameter.

"if the spring steel was distorted the hot spots would be everywhere" I can't imagine how anyone could draw that conclusion when looking at evidence to the contrary

I hate to break this to you but the best way to increase durability is to prevent the source of the heat (slippage) not to try to deal with it after it happens. The test results confirm our statements. The engineers that design
clutches have endorsed it. D.H. agrees. The TCM confirms it. The truck owner with the Sun Coast IV or V will approve it.We will proceed in spite of the great naysayer to the west.
Smoop

Just threw a bag of Pop Secret in the microwave...anybody want?

So this is a new deal and my stage 5 dosnt have it? Not worried about my trans living, just curious.
Joe, any plans on playing with the allison brain? Or is that:secret:

Am I correct in thinking that the allison TCM will only allow a shift to happen so fast? Anything other than that and it will back itself down? Unless your able to fool it into thinking it didnt shift like it did?

I train a lot of transmissions techs ranging from the very experienced to the novices.

The first things out of my mouth is that if you are in this or getting into this solely for the money you picked the wrong company. As a DTT builder it is about commitment to excellence, performance and quality of both builders and products. The products we put in are more involved. The second sentence I usually use is that I can train a monkey to build a transmission but that is not the builder base I am looking for. My guys have to be able to do more than change out transmission parts. You must understand how these transmissions work in order to build them properly.

One of the most important part of being a Trans technician is keeping I touch with the OEM manufacturers and seeing what they have done to address specific issues. What improvements they make should define your changes or re-design process. My dealers are taught and kept abreast of what is going on they don’t get left in the dark about relevant technical information from the OEM that they should have to do their jobs properly.

We are very fortunate that we drag race so we work with a lot of the OEM manufacturers right at the transmission plants. Now Joe Webb is taking credit for this latest and greatest update. That is an insult to you guys and an embarrassment to your customers. Here you are putting your trust in someone that claims to have engineered parts and changes that is now available to you guys of course at a price. What should have happened is that as your tech advisor he should have told you that the spring assembly is Allison part # is 2954291 from Allison not Suncoast. New plate part number from Allison is 29542192 not Suncoast. For gods sake this came out in January of 2004.

You guys are being given this a year after Allison came out with this.

The stage 4 kit should never have been sold to a single consumer. No other transmission shop would rebuild a customer’s transmission putting in used seals at the very least give the customer new-machined seals. Why put a core charge and re use used seals.

The C3 & C4 piston design from Allison is a very poor design for high performance transmissions, as stamped steel will have deflection. By (machining) cutting away the top ledge of this piston ( seal ) that is like taking a piece of angle iron and replacing it a piece of flat bar . What Joe has done by using this process is weakened the OEM piston (seal ) that was already weak to begin with.



I am sorry but I find it hard to congratulate Joe for this latest and greatest update that you should have been given as builders back in 2004 to try and help your customers. I am disgusted to see that any supposed leader would do that to his loyal builder base.

DmaxalliTech when I got in this morning the girls in my office were laughing when they read your post, sad thing is it is not funny, they knew this information when it came out in 2004 and couldn’t believe that you didn’t.

Give me a break, more thin clutches in to dissipate heat, then less clutches to dissipate heat. Make up your mind. It is like creating the problem make some money, go backwards make some more money. The thing that pisses me off is that all along the consumer pays and pays and pays. Now you are intending on attacking us for changing the inside of the Allison.

A lot could be said about DTT shoving smoke up people's butts this past year....

SeKrut SkWiRl StuFf.... :badidea:


P.S. I don't know which upgrade I will use, but I KNOW for sure which one I WILL NOT USE. ;)

We need more butter on that popcorn....:Nothing_f

Am I correct in thinking that the allison TCM will only allow a shift to happen so fast? Anything other than that and it will back itself down? Unless your able to fool it into thinking it didnt shift like it did?
Anyone wana take a crack atthis? Can you actually change the shift without messing with the TCM? Why not try screwing with the TCM, arnt you just messing with 1/2 the equation? Just curious? Not trying to start a war.

Never mind. Thanks bill:)

ratlover, the Allison computer software is almost perfect considering what you are trying to deal with here. The computer is basically controlling the off / on.
When you cannot feel the shifts the timing is almost perfect.We struggled with this.
I have read so many posts where guys will say that the transmission will learn after a couple of weeks of driving. The transmission if it hasnt learned in 4 cycles it is not going to learn. It is just destroying your clutches. By the time you feel the softer shifts your clutches are almost toast.

Let us take the shift from 3rd to 4th for an example. When the transmission shifts from 3rd - 4th the C3 clutches are released and the C2 clutches are applied.
If the C3 clutches dont release before the C2 are applied then you have wear and tear on your clutches as you have a shift overlap. Most everyone will tell you the same thing the clutches are hydraulic applied and spring released. If you machine down the C3 piston and reduce the clutch pack clearance you have effectively weakened the release springs. By adding trim valves and increasing mainline pressure you have increased the speed at which the C2 clutches have come on. What you have done is create your own overlap that was not there from the factory. The computer will learn a little but not enough to save your clutch packs, especially for those of you upping your hp. The more power you have the the less life you will have on this modification.

The factory computer with the factory shift timing is almost perfect. It is critical to maintain good shift timing for longevity, that is why when we do our modifications not only do we deal with the hydraulic side we deal with spring side. We have to maintain the shift timing to get the longevity we are looking for. DTT's increased piston size allows us more clamping force. We can now match the oem timing by making valve body modifications to the OEM seperator plate and we have also modifed the return springs. You cannot do one with out the other. If you incease the speed at which somethng comes on you must increase the speed at which something comes off.

So with an ATS co pilot that was used with it turned up quite a bit and on higher HP you would expect to see some wear in the clutches over time, since that dude knocks off the shifts pretty firm. And I would assume the suncoast isnt shifting too fast to have this overlap you talk of since its not a hard shift?

don't know how to delete this message?

And you also believe the factory TCM shifting is close to perfect? Not much gain to be had with screwing with it I take it then?

I know my trans is a whole lot smarter than me. I also know that about the only thing about the allison i know about women.:idea: They are tempromental and as soon as you do one small thing to make em happy in one area you piss em off in another. Is there ever an end to it:confused: :Insane: :confused:

No worky for me Stefan

http://dieseltrans.com/download/PIC1.jpg

http://dieseltrans.com/download/PIC2.jpg

http://dieseltrans.com/download/PIC3.jpg

As you can see the oem factory piston is stamped steel, by machining it you are diminishing the integrity of the metal. Why do it. This is not about politics, or vendor preference this is about common sense. Transmissions dont have feelings they dont care, that is why we designed our piston to be more rigid that the oem factory one. It is common sense.

Bling bling. How did yo determine you needed all that beef though? Is there a problem with deflection of the apply pistons? Or whats the thought behind that?

ratlover, everyone here was saying the same thing, there is a problem with the way the C3 & C4 clutches were wearing. Our testing showed that the oem factory piston was an issue and is exagerated with more pressure. That is why we designed the piston the way we did. Adding the thicker apply plate ontop of the oem piston will help somewhat , I am not saying it wont help a little. Remember however that it is thicker than the original oem plate. So you have to have a less thicker something somewhere else to adjust for the thicker measurement. Remember you guys we are talking about a stamped steel piston. Is your piston flat straight across.

We have seen as much as 8thou variations on the outside of ledge vs the inside ledge. On the average they vary about 3 thou.

Bill,

I would suggest you spend less time training monkeys and inroll in some remedial reading courses so maybe you could comprehend what you read. It is very apparent that you think the general public doesn't have enough smarts to see threw the huge amounts of BS. I have to tell you that there are some very intelligent members of this forum and they do not have to be a trained tranny tech to see threw your eyewash. You start by telling us you do not have financial concerns and on the TDR Stephen is telling us how DTT is really an AMERICAN company you just stay in canada because you have better health insurance, that does not jive. Your website says your corporate offices are in Abbotsford Canada. I suspect you remain where you are because of the tilted
trade laws the favor you, so don't wrap yourself in the stars & bars cause you ain't earned the right.

Now tell the girls in your office they can get a good laugh at you because the 29542192 plate replaced 29535637. The SIL from Allison explains the only change made was a slot added to the spring pad for clip retention. All other deminsions remained unchanged. The 29542191 is the # for the spring assy itself. Your BS is just that. There is not even the faintest resemblance between this plate and the Sun Coast, but all of you guys that depend upon Bill's lack of understanding i'm sure he will use this part that was updated only to facilitate assy line assy and expound on it's magic properties.

The Stage 4 comes with "new" pistons. Evidently you got someone to purchase one for you.

If you machine the horizontal leg on your angle iron and leave the vertical you have actually increased the strength in an apply condition because you have removed the "lever" that increases the distortion.

If this 29542192 is "your" 2004 update that is a joke. Nobody attacked you in this thread. I guess you just needed an reason to make an ass out yourself.
Your hype has been going on for quite a while. You have been asked to leave more than one seminar, you have been asked not to post on the TDR, and your converter builder told you to take a hike. Do I see a pattern here?
I 've watched you sell "fixes" for non-existance complaints and "fixes" for concerns your "engineering" created all the while crusading as the great consumer advocate. You really shoud be disgusted
Your compassion overwhelms me.

Changing piston height does not affect spring height due to the fact the spring is positioned in the case pocket, not the piston. Precise clearances are maintained by correct stack-up, period, it does not matter how many, how much, whatever, clearance is clearance. If spring working height is maintained it is impossible to weaken the spring. "nice try"

I consider it pointless to continue this discussion with someone that can not or pretends not to comprehend basic engineering principles
Smoop

Joe, I hope you continue. I like reading through the info in your posts. I aint got a clue about how a trany works but i enjoy seeing the info none the less.

So you were seeing an issue with manufacturing tolerances as problem one(what problems did this casue? I mean the piston is ment to bleed by a small amount of fluid any way right?) And you were seeing the inside and or the outside edge(the edge that sun coast machines down) deflect inward or outward? And this was casuing uneven apply or what?

This is interesting stuff here guys please keep it civil and keep the info coming.

7 C3 and C4 frictions, C3 backplate gets replaced as well as C3/C4 pistons. Core is required on these items.

This is a quote from dmaxalliTech on the Suncoast Stage 4, why is there a core charge when you say that you are now offering NEW ones. -:t

DTT doesn't buy competitors products and cut them open, remember that's your trademark cutting the TTS TC open.-:t

But let me see if I'm seeing this wrong a couple months ago you were the man cause you made C3 and C4 stronger by increasing the amount of clutches, and now your the man again by decreasing the amount of clutches, it seems to me that your just going around in circles spending other peoples money which ever way the wind blows you.

Are all your customers that bought what you are not saying to be the best anymore gonna get there money back. In 2 months you did a complete 180 at others expense.

Please keep it to just trans talk not who is training monkeys and who is hacking up other vendors converters.

Man, I REALLY wish I didn't have leave soon...this is going to get good, real quick and in a hurry.

Lets keep it technical in order to try and educate vs personal comments that serve no purpose. We do not use factory pistons period. If the consumers want to go that route all the power to you.

As for you not changing the height , the springs that are attached to the apply plate sit on the piston not the transmission case so you are affecting the spring tension by making it weaker. By maching the piston you are reducing the spring tension as it is further away from the back plate which is at a fixed location.

I agree with you on one thing, some of the guys on here are sharp, informarion is what they need to understand what is going on here with their transmissions.

Beware of the twins, it will make short order of a weak transmission.

Lets keep it technical in order to try and educate vs personal comments that serve no purpose. We do not use factory pistons period. If the consumers want to go that route all the power to you.


Agreed!

I dont care if its stock or a modified coke can I just want the SOB to work! Whats wrong with the factory pistons? Or whats wrong with a factory piston thats had the top taken off a bit?

What does ATS do to the c3 and 4 apply piston?

Condalays
We are still increasing clutch count. Bill, maybe you need to purchsae some SC springs.
We will continue to strive to improve our products, using your philosophy we would still be driving mules & wagons. Slick you wont miss much for now. I've got to go to work,
Smoop

Ratlover,

The reason that the OEM uses a lip on the top side of the piston is to give it rigidity, take away the lip and you loose alot of the rigidity.

That's the reason that we felt that it was necessary to build our own C3 and C4 piston, we can play with the heights without loosing rigidity. The only problem is that it costs us more to make them than to use OEM Piston.

For those who can't understand transmission terms lets put in like this, try bending a piece of flat bar vs. a piece of angle iron, which one do you think would be stronger?

I'm not trying to argue. I really am just curious.

I get that its stronger. Its like if one to look at a cummins rod compared to a dmax rod. Yes the cummins looks beefier and is I'm sure but the dmax rod works just fine and the duramax croud has proved that it will take some stupid kinds of power.

But whats the point? Why is it stronger? What is happening to the stock piston or to Joe's cut down stock piston that necessitated the stronger piston?

Hey Eric,

When can you install a DTT full kit for me? Gimme a call with the price.

Ratlover,



For those who can't understand transmission terms lets put in like this, try bending a piece of flat bar vs. a piece of angle iron, which one do you think would be stronger?
Ratlover,
Try turning your flat bar on edge
smoop

Disclaimer: I do not work on trannys for a living. I work on mine for fun.

From where I stand, the reason the clutches apply unevenly, on the c3-c4, is because the tabs on the steels are not sliding along the slots in the alumimum case as well as the clutches are on the steel planetary shell. Thus the outside of the pack is being held apart relative to the inside. The higher the torque, the more pronounced.

Stiffer pistons and backing plates will help, but what is really needed is to eliminate the binding is either increase the surface area where the steels contact the aluminum case or install a hard surface on the case's slots to allow the steels to slide under high pressure.

Just threw a bag of Pop Secret in the microwave...anybody want?
Yeah, we need this smiley just for Tranny threads
http://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/popcorn.gif

OCDUNE

Yeah, we need this smiley just for Tranny threads
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3132&stc=1

OCDUNE

http://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/popcorn.gif

Diesel tech,

The pictures are of OEM steels and frictions. How did the apply plate get that thin? (.125) you will have to ask Borg Warner they designed it. "The stock unit is much thicker." You are looking at the stock unit. These photos are of the OEM clutch pack so "they" ? have not done anything. Your lack of vision on spring plate thickness is something you need to resolve. First you need to learn to read what I've posted before you go off the deep end again! I never said a thing about the apply plate being thin!

So are you trying to say that your replacing the spring plate with a thicker than stock unit?Looking at the pictures I'm not sure but it looks like the pressure plate is what's thicker? My question would have to be how did it get that thin to begin with? The stock unit is much thicker. The stock unit only will handle 4 clutches, that's all the room there is. So are what you telling us now is that in order to install 7 clutches they made things too thin, looks like they went too far. The pistons on both C3 and C4 press on the spring plate in two locations to stop it from distorting, one pressure point is all around the inside and the other is all around the outer area so I cannot see the spring plate thickness doing much of anything.Diesel tech,

Your (5 lbs total spring force) is totally inaccurate. There is 60 Lbs on each tab for a 120 lb total. On just about any wet clutch pack the friction surfaces against the piston and or pressure plate on each end will show the smallest amount of stress because the piston/pressure plate adjacent to the surface carry's more heat away. The distortion is clearly evident if you care to look.
By your statements so far I assume you are under the illusion that you are seeing something other than OEM frictions and reaction plates.
Another misconception you have alluded to in the past is that the heat is dispersed by convection between the reaction plates and the case. Any heat dispersed in this method is nominal. Wet clutchs depend almost totally on fluid to carry heat away. The burn marks on the inside periphpery clearly indicates ther is little contact on the outer diameter.

"if the spring steel was distorted the hot spots would be everywhere" I can't imagine how anyone could draw that conclusion when looking at evidence to the contrary

I hate to break this to you but the best way to increase durability is to prevent the source of the heat (slippage) not to try to deal with it after it happens. The test results confirm our statements. The engineers that design
clutches have endorsed it. D.H. agrees. The TCM confirms it. The truck owner with the Sun Coast IV or V will approve it.We will proceed in spite of the great naysayer to the west.
Smoop
Your test results are flawed as the TCM sets the apply time and it will continue to reduce clutch pack pressure until it see what it wants. Until the programming in the TCM is changed the shift time will be what GM has it set for. Why do you think the Transgo trim valve bleeds are spring loaded! After months of testing Transgo came to the same conclusion as I point out to them, the TCM will win, its just a matter of time.

"There is 60 Lbs on each tab for a 120 lb total."

When was the last time you personally worked on an Allison? It must have been before they came out in a Duramax. Every Allison 1000 I have ever seen or worked on has three (3) spring tabs in C4 and C3 so your pressures are not event close! I will admit I did not go measure them but I can push the pressure plate in place with one hand and there is no way in Hell I'm pushing 180 lbs or event 120 lbs. As far as the heat is concerned we at least agree it needs to be dealt with and the hottest point is middle of the clutch pack. Which by the way brings me to the thinner steels from Alto you sell, guess what......... I've seen them come out looking just the same but with all the Kolene gone from the surface of the steel where the clutch contacts it and the steel turned blue. So I do not have to assume that the problem is not fixed, I know it isn't! You had better get back to the wet clutch engineers that have endorsed the thinner metal and clutches cause it isn't working!
As long as you keep thinking the way things worked before computers ran the transmission you will never understand what's going on. Adaptive shifting is here Smoop time to get with the program and learn how to work with it, not continue to try and work against it.

Ding! Ding!

Disclaimer: I do not work on trannys for a living. I work on mine for fun.

From where I stand, the reason the clutches apply unevenly, on the c3-c4, is because the tabs on the steels are not sliding along the slots in the alumimum case as well as the clutches are on the steel planetary shell. Thus the outside of the pack is being held apart relative to the inside. The higher the torque, the more pronounced.

Stiffer pistons and backing plates will help, but what is really needed is to eliminate the binding is either increase the surface area where the steels contact the aluminum case or install a hard surface on the case's slots to allow the steels to slide under high pressure.
And we now have a winner! The only problem is there is no way to make the steel plates thinner and achieve this! So you need to thicken the steel plates which helps the heat issue and also makes it slide on the case easier.

Thicker, but fewer plates end up with the same binding pressures. You need to reduce the PSI on the aluminum or put a hard surface between the tab and the aluminum to keep the tab from digging in.

One solution would be to thin the inner portion of stock steels and leave the tabs full thickness. If you recess them say .020" per side (tabs untouched) you would end up with enough room to pack more plates (with thinner clutches) AND increase the tab area and reduce the binding forces.

There are technologies to deposite a hard wear surface on the Aluminum case slots too. That may, or may not, be more cost effective.

There are other mechanical ways to get a hard surface on the alumimun too. But those can will create too many small parts in my opinion.

It is my feeling that the extra clutch plates do little to no good in C3 and C4. It's my feeling if they are engaged properly and increased by one friction plate it will be just fine. By increasing the surface contact area between the case and plates they also slide easier as they are not as prone to dig into the soft case material. You need to have a small radius on both sides of the steel plate where it contacts the case to prevent a sharp edge from biting into it. Also if you were to try cutting the stock plates down thinner only where the friction material hit you would end up with a sharp corner right where the fingers attach to the steel surface, this would make it prone to breaking along the cut line between the thinner area and the thicker area. There is not any room to try to taper from one surface to the other.

AS usual Steve you don't understand what you post and you can't back it up.

You said the plate looked thinner what is it you don't understand about that.

When is the last time I worked on an Allison? About 5 minutes ago. I have built over a 100 units how about you?
Spring weight: Take one spring from the spring pack, walk over to the scale and weigh it @ .975. multiply the results by 9 and you will have computed the correct return spring weight, the hand push don't get it. I really would like for you to publish these heat destressed Kolenes you are fixated on. I still have not heard you define thin. Cutting stock plates down? It is apparant you know as little about reaction plate production as the rest of the Allison. Fingers had a valid idea but it doesn't work like that. Go take a look at the case where the reaction plates fit. (surely you have one handy) I just looked at 5 different cases and there isn't even a mark where the reaction plates set. I'll send photos if you like. Opinions don't count just facts when it comes to physics. You seem to have a problem seperating the two.

Smoop

Boy, I love tranny threads.

Yeah me too............

http://www.artie.com/gifs/arg-bomb.gif

I'm with you Tom, I've learned to be more cornfused reading this thread.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/funnypost.gif

Actually smoop, I did look when I did mine. No burrs or indentations but some bright spots from the tabs. Nothing unexpected. Noticed the drag on the steels when I installed them. Reminded me of something I had run across before that I couldn't put my finger on at the time.

Just got back off the road for business. The customer has these big multi-plate motor brakes that stack up similar to the allisons clutch packs. They have the "new" design with the cast iron cases. The old design, which I still see a lot of and this customer recently replaced, has an aluminum case and many are not holding thier rated loads. In fact almost all of them have problems at one time or another. The tabs jamb in the slots under high loads. The cast Iron cases fixed the problem. Wonder who fingered the root cause?

You don't know me Smoop. Your loss. Regardless, you seem to have a problem keeping a civil tongue. The last two lines of your post are uncalled for partner.

Fingers,

What is uncivil or uncalled for about seperating opinions from facts when dealing with physics?

Unlike ourselves mechanical entities do not have egos. No I don't know you nor do you know me. I gave creedance to your statements and I can appreciate the alum vs cast you observed. But that has not been seen in the Allison. I can't apologize for that the transmission speaks for itself. The trans doesn't know you nor I and it doesn't care. I live in the real world of transmissions 60 + hours a week, I enjoy the challenge to analyze, innovate , and improve. I consider myself blessed that this industry allows me to do that.
smoop

I'll say that this stuff is waaaaaayyy over my head! :confused: but it is an interesting read.

Dan

I understand just fine but like you said you just finish working on one 5 minutes ago, Let me see that would be 9.25 PM your time and you still haven't figured out that there is three spring plate tabs on C3 and C4! As far as a handy case I've only got two sitting here to go along with the engines and dyno's we use to prove what we build. Why would you want the spring compressed to .975"? I've just stacked the assemble up and fully compressed it's .950 on stock clutch plates. At this point the pressure pushing the spring plate from the stock piston is 90 psi oil pressure. So your trying to tell me that the springs are at 180 lbs by your measurements, I don't think so............. You want some proof OK you got it. Diesel Powers truck was assembled with nothing more than a Transgo kit, TTS converter, and stock Borg Warner frictions. After 25,000 mile it was disassembled and we found everything just fine. No burned C3 or C4's. That's running it hard daily plus drag racing and a few truck pulls tossed in for good measure. Numerous dyno days at 480 + RwHp and 1000+ torque.

Now you want to talk about what your shipping out for a level 4 kit, I've seen your cut down factory piston's. First off they are used parts, They were out of flat by .050 I checked them on our surface table and looked like a two year old cut them, maybe thats why your having trouble with C3 and C4. Let's talk about cutting the piston the way you do. The edge is rolled on the factory piston for strength, it stops the piston sides from moving inward and causing the seal between the case and piston to leak, but then again your so smart you already knew that! Then there is the factory C1 plate that looked like you put them on a bench grinder to thin it up, but you forgot to debur it and left all the metal pushed into the spline area. Maybe if you really spent some time improving your product you might learn something. Then you wouldn't need to have Kennedy order everyone else's so you can tear them apart to copy.

Finger's hit the nail on the head but since you can not claim you did it first you say it doesn't work. Well your wrong, there doesn't have to be grooves cut in the case or marks to make them drag. You are correct about one thing opinions don't count when it comes to physics but when you can not count to three properly I don't have much faith that you ever made it to a physics class, if you had you might remember about coefficients and there affects between dissimilar metals. :eek:

Smoop just so you know I can backup what I've said.

AS usual Steve you don't understand what you post and you can't back it up.

You said the plate looked thinner what is it you don't understand about that.

When is the last time I worked on an Allison? About 5 minutes ago. I have built over a 100 units how about you?
Spring weight: Take one spring from the spring pack, walk over to the scale and weigh it @ .975. multiply the results by 9 and you will have computed the correct return spring weight, the hand push don't get it. I really would like for you to publish these heat destressed Kolenes you are fixated on. I still have not heard you define thin. Cutting stock plates down? It is apparant you know as little about reaction plate production as the rest of the Allison. Fingers had a valid idea but it doesn't work like that. Go take a look at the case where the reaction plates fit. (surely you have one handy) I just looked at 5 different cases and there isn't even a mark where the reaction plates set. I'll send photos if you like. Opinions don't count just facts when it comes to physics. You seem to have a problem seperating the two.

Smoop
No speaking with a forked tongue here. The prototype Level IV installed in my tranny last Thursday was performed by none other than Joe himself while he was training one of his employees. I did whitness the complete install and as mentioned the hand push won't cut it with the springs. I was pleased beyond my expectations with both the knowledge shared and the performance of the tranny when everything was wrapped up. Kudos to the crew and service.:beerchug:

I have to call time out here and address the silent majority here that does not give a rats A$$ about any of this except that they would like to tow their load or work their truck and have a little fun on the side with or without a performance program. These are the people that I work for. The high performance guys are fun to work with but they are a minority. For you guys, this is my recomendation. Transgo shift kit is a must and your Ally will shift like stock untill you hammer it and then it will firm up, but not much. Converter should be a multi disc style bought from a name company to ensure you only do this once. This will give you less heat in the Ally and give you superb coupling under load. Synthetic fluid is a plus for heat dissapation and longevety for the Ally. These recomendations of mine should cover 90% of you guys with what you are doing. Now, if you decide to start playing real hard, you will need to upgrade further, I am not going there right now. Just thought I would give some of you guys a break.

mike

Steve,
3 spring tabs with 3 springs on each tab. What is there about 3x3=9 that confuses you? Are you telling me that there are not 9 springs on the C-3 apply plate.
.975 is the correct load height. Each spring weighs 20# @ that height.
9x 20 = 180 anyway you cut it. As for your comments about our machine, your CNC must be really something. You do have at least one don't you? Yes, you can tell time. It is now 10:00 PM, I am at the shop. So what? Ant one wants to call?
1-800-868-0053 I'll answer.
smoop

Ok, my bad, I put 120 when it should have been 180. Like you said It's late.

I still would like for you to point out where I said something wouldn't work in this thread? You are the one that jumped on our pressure plates and started this mess. If you notice you are constantly attacking any idea from anyone but yourself. This seems to be a recurring thing with you. Kennedy ordered everyone elses what?
Smoop

Diesel tech,
Your (5 lbs total spring force) is totally inaccurate. There is 60 Lbs on each tab for a 120 lb total.
Steve,
3 spring tabs with 3 springs on each tab. What is there about 3x3=9 that confuses you? Are you telling me that there are not 9 springs on the C-3 apply plate.
.975 is the correct load height. Each spring weighs 20# @ that height.
9x 20 = 180 anyway you cut it. ........ Yes, you can tell time. It is now 10:00 PM, I am at the shop. So what?
Well which is is Smoop, both of these are your post. Once you say 120 lbs then you say 180 lbs now you say it's 10.00 PM when it's 11.00 PM. :confused: You need to learn how to count better! Call forwarding is a wonderful thing!

Oh great enlightened one. We are on Central time. It is now 10:15. Do you know where you clock is? Besides 120 is a hellavu lot closer to 180 than 5:D
Smoop

phone him steve, and finish it

Hey Eric,
When can you install a DTT full kit for me? Gimme a call with the price.

This is the same way you ordered one of our triple plate converters and I can prove it. Yea, my clock didn't change time zones in the past hour!

What does Kennedy and Eric got to do with squat?
Go get your geography book out, dummy. That's funny everything I ask you to prove you change the subject.
smoop

As usual, I think Mike L. hit the nail on the head, and I have absolutely no reason to be kissing ass here.

My opinion, as if it matters? Keep the engineering bull**** and attitudes to yourselves. I really don't care who's correct, it makes me want to buy none of your products now.

If your product is superior, it will speak for itself over time. With all the enthusiasts on this board, we'll discover soon enough what works and what doesn't.

And maybe, just maybe, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Perhaps more than one approach can yield great results? I think so.

Today, 06:25 PM #47
smoop

When is the last time I worked on an Allison? About 5 minutes ago.

Today, 07:49 PM #54
Diesel Tech

.....you just finish working on one 5 minutes ago, Let me see that would be 9.25 PM your time

Today, 08:01 PM #57
smoop

Yes, you can tell time. It is now 10:00 PM
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________


As alway you resort to name calling when you've told one to many stories, but all you need to do is look at all the previous posts to see you keep changing your story!

This is the same way you ordered one of our triple plate converters and I can prove it. Yea, my clock didn't change time zones in the past hour!
Suncoast ordered a TTS convertor Through John Kennedy?

I thought John didn't sell TTS products as per his website?

Explain?:confused:

wow. what a dog fight. Im so confused that I cannot figure out what to go with.

:iamlost: :whip: :boxing: :banghead: :sign_weir

I don't think we can ever have a civilized discussion anymore. Too much mud flying around.. I think I am more lost now than ever before...

There has been a lot of good information amongst all the mud slinging. I have not changed my mind on what I am getting installed in my truck. I don't plan on putting an extra 500hp and joining the DHRA. For those of us that use the truck as a daily driver that want to smoke the occasional rice rocket I think the tranny kits available will do fine. These transmissions are great engineering marvels but are still imperfect. They always will be.

I think we need 3 test trucks all running the same box and each installed with a different tranny setup...running 1/4 miles 24x7 until engines and or trannys smoke and one is still breathing. Call it a tranny shoot-out :) My head hurts.

Yea, good idea. Lets put them all in big 4D 4X4 Dooleys running the Extreme, a big gulp of pane, and a huge does of N2O, + a little friend. That will sort them out. If they survive that, then they will survive anything lower and lighter with flying colors. I have one ready to go already. OHH. Better back off the little friend. The comp would be over a little to quickly doin that.

awwww doolies are to heavy... you'll kill a tranny for sure!

I'm buying a stick and working out more after all this.


Perhaps that's the plan confuse the public that have and will spend heeps of coin -:t



A rowing I will go,KISS.

Well it looks like I was right, I missed it and now MY popcorn is all gone, nothing left but the Censored kernels.):h

Now Mac wants a handshaker, it must have been a bad thread.

Mac forgot this smiley-------------->:driver: :Nothing_f

I have to call time out here and address the silent majority here that does not give a rats A$$ about any of this except that they would like to tow their load or work their truck and have a little fun on the side with or without a performance program. These are the people that I work for. The high performance guys are fun to work with but they are a minority. For you guys, this is my recomendation. Transgo shift kit is a must and your Ally will shift like stock untill you hammer it and then it will firm up, but not much. Converter should be a multi disc style bought from a name company to ensure you only do this once. This will give you less heat in the Ally and give you superb coupling under load. Synthetic fluid is a plus for heat dissapation and longevety for the Ally. These recomendations of mine should cover 90% of you guys with what you are doing. Now, if you decide to start playing real hard, you will need to upgrade further, I am not going there right now. Just thought I would give some of you guys a break.

mike
I like a dog fight as much as the next guy, and although I'm not a trans expert by any measure I am trying to understand the different approachs to modifying the Ali. Having said that, Mike just defined what I need. I have a daily driver I just want to have some fun with, no sled pull or 1/4 mile records to be set by me. Thanks Mike, for putting this in perspective.

I like a dog fight as much as the next guy, and although I'm not a trans expert by any measure I am trying to understand the different approachs to modifying the Ali. Having said that, Mike just defined what I need. I have a daily driver I just want to have some fun with, no sled pull or 1/4 mile records to be set by me. Thanks Mike, for putting this in perspective.
:exactly:

I think we need 3 test trucks all running the same box and each installed with a different tranny setup...running 1/4 miles 24x7 until engines and or trannys smoke and one is still breathing. Call it a tranny shoot-out :) My head hurts. I was thinking about this too. I thing you would need more like 3 test trucks per tranny design so 3 trannys of each design (9 trannys and 9 trucks) can be run at a time to weed out assembly/manufacturing and other flaws that could happen to jeapordize the test results. This debate would start all over if a tranny had some sort of hidden defect and failed and the other two held up. Of course this would be a lot of $$ just to prove which one is good for drag racing and sled pulling.

Me personally am looking to get a tranny to hold my Juice and predator and possibly a TTS or VA box in the future for a long period of time daily driving. I think a lot of other people are looking for this line of performance out of the tranny also. Mike L. definately is the guy for me to talk to in this case. I look at what people are using and what they have to say about the products. These are people who just add some off the shelf power to the truck and let her rip. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/grd.gif Thanks everyone who have supplied information on this topic. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Yea, good idea. Lets put them all in big 4D 4X4 Dooleys running the Extreme, a big gulp of pane, and a huge does of N2O, + a little friend. That will sort them out. If they survive that, then they will survive anything lower and lighter with flying colors. I have one ready to go already. OHH. Better back off the little friend. The comp would be over a little to quickly doin that. Super we got one set to go meeting those requirements and its sittin on 19.5's also.

10%er? I always thought I was a 1/2%er:D

If you arnt interested in pushing the limits or just plain bored at work(I'm kinda both):h ) all this means nothing to you. But then again a LIV is way above your needs anywho......but for the minority the info being exchanged here is good stuff IMO.

Hopefully someone can answer my questions.....I know some guys have jobs and all so I understand if it takes awhile but I have asked some pretty specific Q's on the TCM, how it works and also if there is a room for improvement there or what(Bill seems to think its fine right?). And also what is wrong with the stock and cut down c3 and c4 pistons, what the tolerances and weakening are actually doing.

Fingers brings up an interesting thought. Maybe a part of building the trans should include rounding and smothing the ends of the tabs? It may not help at all but will it hurt??? Might fall into the make sure the oil bleed is straight up and your lube slots are all the same ect? All it takes is time......
Is there much contact btw the tabs and the case? Hmmmm??? I suppose sleeves could easily be incorporated if it were found to be a big issue.

EDit: duh coating! not a bright idea to stick your steel on the bench grinder:o: Edit: 2 or is the stuff like powder coating were its apt to chip away or would there be a prob buffing the coating off part were the tabs contact? How tough is this stuff when being slid along aluminum? Would were marks be shown in the coating? Or would the case just get nice and shinny in spots maybe?


Damaged c3s and 4s show rings on the inner edge and on both sideds of the clutch equaly right?

While I am all for improvements in anything, from the buyer's perspective it is unsettling to spend 5+ grand on a new tranny and a week later hear there is now a "new/improved" version available. It kind a makes the buyer feel like he got cheated. Mentally, what the buyer considered the "best" based on hours of research, product reviews, recommendations, etc. is now sub-par because there is a new/improved version available. But then there are competitors who argue what one is calling an "improvement" is the contrary ...which makes the buyer feel better ...but wait? if he believes what the competitor is arguing then why did he buy product A in the first place!? :eek: Call it a tranny shark tank. Do you want to dip your toe in the water today?

I realize improvements are made to just about anything produced/sold today ...however I would think when consumers are spending significant coin on a product, IMO the seller should strategically plan/announce updates/upgrades on a quarterly or semi-annual basis to alleviate the situation above. Otherwise consumers are going to be scared to purchase anything knowing something better may be available next week. Just my 2 cents. I don't think many people expect monthly improvements to any product costing significant money. IMO frequent updates to anything tells me the product I just bought is the "BETA" version....who wants to spend $3K+ on a beta version?

That's exactly what we want to do ...kill trannies and see which one catches on fire/explodes first, etc. The one taking the fewest buckets of water to extinguish is the winner :)



awwww doolies are to heavy... you'll kill a tranny for sure!

awwww doolies are to heavy... you'll kill a tranny for sure!
Actually, that would be the smartest way TO go...use the heaviest vehicle you can find, and beat the living SH*T out of it. Interesting idea, to have a real world test.

More than one way to skin a cat..........

Tom

Although I would be annoyed for something to be rushed to market......the people that are buying a 5k top of the line trans are ones that are pushing the envelope and want the best available NOW! They dont care about things bening part of a normal timetable so the majority can feel warm and fuzzy that they have the best available for at least a few months. The people wanting to play hard are more concerend about having the best available and if something goes wrong of if significant improvments come out that they would benifit from the company they bought from will make it easy for them to get thier stuff fixed(no hassle on warantee or taking care of outa warantee) or for them to get the "updated" goodies.

People talking about level 4's and level 5's and DTT's stage 2 full blown ats ect are not the normal buying public and shouldnt be treated or approached as such. Remember we are nut cases and should be treated as such:cookoo:

Yeah, heavier the better ...and let's hookup a 15K trailer in every other 1/4 mile run so the trannies are exposed to "race" and "pull" environments.

I can see it now in the new Diesel Magazine ...

"Allison Tranny ShootOut ...the full meal deal" :ro)

Remember we are nut cases and should be treated as such:cookoo:

HEY!

I Resemble that remark!:rant:

Yeah, heavier the better ...and let's hookup a 15K trailer in every other 1/4 mile run so the trannies are exposed to "race" and "pull" environments.

I can see it now in the new Diesel Magazine ...

"Allison Tranny ShootOut ...the full meal deal" :ro)Great Idea!

I wonder what their budget for testing is? Would be $20000+ to test the Big4! Methinks they'd need a lot of subscriptions!

Tom

Yes you do juice, I duno about you but I'm happy to be nuttier than a skwirl turd):h

So when I upgrade my tranny next summer, I should buy the manufacturer that stands behind their product and doesn't hassle about warranty issues. I have been looking at either the ATS or the Suncoast upgrades and have yet to decide (have to save my pennies; okay, quarters first).

I guess I will just have to wait till I'm not so confused. Might have to look at who is closer to get to for an install as well.

Looking for a daily driver with a little bit of added HP and torque. Toy Hauler in the near future (size yet to be determined) and of course the occasional rice smokin. I know the stock ally was not made to last when some added HP and TQ are introduced.

I am just looking for what will handle what I want to do and handle an added 150HP or so most of the time.

So here I am. The average joe who's looking to upgrade his tranny to handle more HP and to have some fun as well.

Yes you do juice, I duno about you but I'm happy to be nuttier than a skwirl turd):h
Thats Sekrut skwirl turd........ I wish I had the bucks to join you nuts.

Tom

While I am all for improvements in anything, from the buyer's perspective it is unsettling to spend 5+ grand on a new tranny and a week later hear there is now a "new/improved" version available. It kind a makes the buyer feel like he got cheated. Mentally, what the buyer considered the "best" based on hours of research, product reviews, recommendations, etc. is now sub-par because there is a new/improved version available. But then there are competitors who argue what one is calling an "improvement" is the contrary ...which makes the buyer feel better ...but wait? if he believes what the competitor is arguing then why did he buy product A in the first place!? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif Call it a tranny shark tank. Do you want to dip your toe in the water today?

I realize improvements are made to just about anything produced/sold today ...however I would think when consumers are spending significant coin on a product, IMO the seller should strategically plan/announce updates/upgrades on a quarterly or semi-annual basis to alleviate the situation above. Otherwise consumers are going to be scared to purchase anything knowing something better may be available next week. Just my 2 cents. I don't think many people expect monthly improvements to any product costing significant money. IMO frequent updates to anything tells me the product I just bought is the "BETA" version....who wants to spend $3K+ on a beta version?Let me weigh in on this..............

The Allison seems like the computer industry..........all the big players are pushing for more and more..........last month it was this, this month it was that............http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/help2.gif

I waited and waited and waited..........finally ordered a SC-III kit........got the tranny in and immediately felt the low end was missing somewhat........I was told it was the TC......that's how it is..........less than three months later TTS releases the Triple......Censored .....am I pulling out my tranny to swap TC's..........NOPE.......I usually run a big program and like to run hard at the track..........once the TC is locked.........it don't matter.........:)

Could I add a CO-PILOT..........sure........do I need one..........maybe not........

Do I need a DTT case with billet apply plates ??????? I have not had any issues with my tranny for 15K miles..........so again do I need it ???????

All I can offer is my own advice.........just because it's new or improved doesn't mean what you have now is bad.........or not good enough........

As Diesel Tech stated..........Diesel Power ran a transgo kit with stock clutches and a TTS single disk for over a year and 25K miles of XTREME abuse.........it held fine..........

ATS level III and SC-III kits are very similiar in the design IMHO.......the ATS and SC-III use extra clutches and more pressure, ATS adds the Co-Pilot........

I would have to say mtomac and Trippin have run the ATS to hell and back..........http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/exactly.gif as has sdaver, kingd, N20 -Dmax and others have run the SC tranny's

So listen to the people you trust............I trusted MIKE L. and the other members I talked to when I made my own decision..........would I like to have the latest and greatest...........sure, wouldn't everybody...............but my tranny is not broken............and until I break it I ain't fixing it..........

So make your own minds up...........buy as much as you can afford.........and have fun...........

OK,

So let's get back to the mud-slinging..................pass the popcorn

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif

I asked for permission to post the report I did on the motor brake plate binding for a customer (they own it). They said they would think about it. However, using the same framework.

Tab thickness: 0.098
Tab length: 0.375 (assuming the whole tab contacts the slot)
Steel tabs: 90 (on 3 stock steels)
Backing plate tabs 30
Apply plate tabs 30 (apply and backing plate only have a friction on one side so only see half the load, so we can claim 30 tabs for both)
Total equiv tabs 120
Total Area 4.41 sq inches

Load on the clutch pack is EngineTorque / SunGearRadius

Stock engine torque 500 ftlbs
Pack load: 2500 lbs
PSI: 566 psi (steels only)
Coef of friction for Aluminum and steel .61 lbs/lb (static dry) ~.2 (dynamic w/oil)
load per steel: 625 lbs
sliding resistance per steel 381 lbs. (dry) 125 lbs (dynamic w/oil)

Makes sense why we defuel for shifts. The packs probably wouldn't set right if they loaded right away. Someone else can tell me if the tranny fluid is even effective at 566 PSI load. These numbers assume no binding, which aluminum is well known for at low loads when the oil breaks down.

I've done some gross testing of the stock steels for deflection. The slots in the steels make them much more flexable than I would have thought. When I get back off the road, I will take the stock steels I have down to the cal lab and see if I can pull some numbers.

WOW, the fun I missed while working... you know building trannies....

Glad I could supply a laugh for some of you, your office girls or whoever. Maybe you should pay more attention to the OEM parts if it confuses you that much.

Another pissing match thread in what was intended only to inform those in the market of some new changes/updates etc. If you do or dont think they work, its your choice. I get a chuckle out of reading all this. I am just waiting for somebody to say they invented the internet, cause I know somebody here did.

For those of you following this thread, my apologies for making you see all this, Mike L said it best a few pages back about the 90% of you.

If you purchase a trans kit or complete unit from anywhere and then an update or change comes about, then you likely will never buy a new truck or a computer cause they change too, mid year changes whatever. No set date for them. Hell, depending on who you believe it dont mean s hit anyways. So whats to be upset about?

I havent had anybody ask me to install a Canadian trans lately, people are impatient I guess. How is that trans holding up? Something about cant keep it in gear on a dyno or something?

I could tell it was getting dark out by looking at the post times, that seems to be the newest thing to argue about.

Hey Kennedy, cant give a price for ya on something that isnt out yet. Final price would depend on what we could purchase the 'shift kit' for. I think I heard Duramaximier or somebody up in Montreal say that the wrong one came in...

Those of you on the fence deciding for an upgrade for hardcore use, guess what. They all fail. Converter..same way.

If you are a daily driver/tower then you cant go wrong with a currently avail setup. Believe it or not, all the beechin is helping push the envelope further and further.

I cant remember what we were talking about now.....

Thats Sekrut skwirl turd........ I wish I had the bucks to join you nuts.

Tom
You dont need big $$$'s, you just need good credit and a taste for mac and cheese and romen noodles.):h

Ramen's not that bad. :)

I am just waiting for somebody to say they invented the internet, cause I know somebody here did.

Well I really didn't want to get involved but since you brought me up ... :D

Sp33d's lyin', it was me! ):h

Sp33d's lyin', it was me! ):h
I was told it was AL GORE............:eek:

You dont need big $$$'s, you just need good credit and a taste for mac and cheese and romen noodles.):h

No cheese though.... to expensive:o:

Just water, salt and chemicals..... mmmm tasty... and buying 2 ply TP... you can make 2 rolls out of one...... Flintstones vitamins... cheaper than the adult stuff and they are chewable so they pass as a food group.....

Do you know you can make a gourmet meal in your backyard using 2 peanuts and a slingshot?

The nuts lure in the squirrel, the neighbors cat wants to eat the squirrel.

2 well placed shots and you got meat for dinner! Bonus points if the neighbor has 2 cats... when you skin them you get free fur lined slippers!

Of course, red meat all the time is not good for you, so hang the entrails on the fence, and wait for the ravens to show up!

Yummy... them's good eatin there!-:t

When you have 2 kids and a mortgage, an extra $3500 is not easy to come by. Sorry Eric, just can't do it...

Thank God this thread finally lightened up.

Tom

....

I would have to say mtomac and Trippin have run the ATS to hell and back..........http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/exactly.gif as has sdaver, kingd, N20 -Dmax and others have run the SC tranny's



Damn, can't even get an honorable mention as a Suncoast abuser. Must be a 4WD thing...... ;) :D

Damn, can't even get an honorable mention as a Suncoast abuser. Must be a 4WD thing...... ;) :D

I hear ya Brandon ,no respect!

Gonna say it now don't care who it pisses off,my tranny will get to Fort Walton Beach one more time,perhaps this year,if I can find the time ;)

I do believe Joe Webb and have confidence he's a expert in the field.I'm fully aware Steve worked with Transgo side by side on the staple of most proven upgrade kits,but Suncoast pioneered it (Allison) a step further, and beyond, lets not forget,that's where Mackins money will go and went.
Credit where credit is do.
Dually heavy? Girls, please

Believe it or not, I think this argument between Joe and Steve is a good thing (minus the personal insults) Eric nailed it by saying this thread pushes the envelope. I'm sure every tranny builder will now be looking for a way to cure the issues mentioned in this thread, although it does not really apply to the daily driver... it still makes tranny development that much better...

Dan

Damn, can't even get an honorable mention as a Suncoast abuser. Must be a 4WD thing...... ;) :D.
.
.
:o: :o: :o:
.
.

******Disclaimer******
I missed some people.............so, so sorry.............):h ):h ):h

T;) NY

I cant comment on personal experience with Steve C or Clint, but have talked with both of them at lenght. I learn(ed) alot from both of them on different matters. Over a year and a half ago when Cole sent me my trans go kit for my truck, he spent an hour and a half on the phone with me explaining the ins and outs of it. That really helped me grasp a knowledge of the how/whys. I used to spend all my trans time repairing transmissions under warranty. In that situation we were not allowed to 'overbuild' only to put back to GM spec. That didnt leave much room to improve anything even when you knew it had to be improved. 4t65E input carrier bearing/carrier failure mean anything to anyone?

I have been to Joe's facility twice and spent quite a bit of time watching/learning/being a fly on the wall. Lots of test parts laying around to try and see what works and how it works and if it works and parts that failed cause it didnt work. Ask Jose how many times he has R&R'd the same trans down there.... Its more then a few times. I never had the time to delv into any of the experimental things then so now with more time I hope to be able to play with a few things myself. Why? Not so that I can keep my trans with the latest and greatest stuff, I dont care about that, it tows/plows/drives just fine. Its so I can learn what works, and how I may be able to improve something. Just like what most of the builders on this forum do.

Bacon said it well, 3500.00 is a lot to swallow and even harder to convince the wives most of the time. Rest assured your getting every bit of your moneys worth when you are doing it becuase of threads like this.

This Allison transmission doesn’t care. If you speed up the rate of apply , you must speed up the rate of release, otherwise you will have a shift overlap. The computer is going to try and compensate for that. There is no sense of me even arguing if people that do not understand that simple theory.

Your shift timing has to remain the same from beginning to end. There are lots of guys on this web site after a rebuild complain that it shifts weird until the tranny learns. Of course it does, the shift timing is wrong. By the time it learns the clutches have been worn down. Whatever life you had with the new clutches the learning time shortens the life.

I could have done what every one else is doing but at the end of the day it is my name and reputation on the line so I have to make sure the parts I design get the job done. I am not offended if guys don’t agree with me. If you like what you have keep it. For those of you that have been contacting us that your stuff is not holding and want to step up this is for you. Our Dodge customer base is probably one of the most knowledgeable about their trucks and it should be no less so for you guys. If you understand what the problem is then you can understand if the proposed solution being offered. If you dont understand then ask questions. When I design parts for any transmission I look at the market first. If there is already an adequate solution to the end user in place I wouldn’t waste my time or money on a product line if the needs were being addressed.

Maybe someday someone will come up with a controller that can go beyond the factory computer but even if they do they can only control the apply cycle. They cannot control the release cycle. Bottom line , however long it takes the springs to push the piston back determines how fast you can make the clutches come on. I guarantee you guy this, now that we have released some of this information in an effort to teach you guys what is going on with your trannys and more of our kits become available, you will see the other after market coming out with return springs and vast different kits in the next little bit. They have no choice but to step up or make no mistake about it they will get left behind. I don’t have to argue the point , I just want you guys to remember what I said. you cannot speed up the rate of apply without addressing the rate of release first year tranny tech can tell you that.

Eric,

What you said is why, when my tranny is ready for an overall, I will make the drive up and let you put in what I really NEED, not what I think I want.

Listening to developers / manufacturers is interesting, if not outright entertaining. However, listening to the rebuilders, who make their living by having happy and satisfied customers, is what's important. I think that Mike L. or Eric says is a thousand times more important than theory when it comes to YOUR money that's being forked over.

Do you think for one moment, that Mike would be in business today if he did not help his customers make the right decision?

For you big HP guys, more power to ya! But if your serious, quit playing with the baby Ally and go big. You know that Allison makes bigger models than the LCT1000. So what they weigh more and you'll have to modify your floor pan. Small price to pay to play. You won't be smoking clutches. Plus, you can push some serious HP. You're not pushing the envelope unless parts are breaking. There's plenty of parts in a GM drive train to make into the weak link. I don't see too many of you throwing rods, spinning bearings, and puffing heads. Go for it if you got the stones. After all it's only money and you guys are spending thousands on a hobby right?

You don't see the top fuelers' playing with a Power Glide now do you?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to get offensive, but come on. It's starting to sound like a Ford / GM / Dodge argument. These guys all build pretty decent toys.

I'll take some pop-corn please.

Our Dodge customer base is probably one of the most knowledgeable about their trucks and it should be no less so for you guys. :nutkick:

A controller may be whats needed to get all this stuff to play togather, but we dont have that yet unfortunatly. I think that will be the next big improvement that is worth a darn. Until then, we keep doing what we can to improve. Some things may be a bigger improvement then another but thats they business.

As for clutches being worn out before the trans learns, you better get better clutches if they wear out in a weeks driving for the most extreme cases. Usually an hour of driving after properly resetting everything and the trans is very predicatble. Most of the adapts have come to slow learn so the TCM is happy with things as well.

http://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/popcorn.gif


Thanks for fixing that up.....I fixed it in the original


OCDUNE

Who says the bigger trans from Allison will hold any of our BIG power in the first place? I don't see to many pushin the envelope like some of us are (with the big Alli). Actually none that I know of. Top fuelers trans is a dry stack up of plates that gets rebuilt every run or 30 seconds or so of life. One burn out, one run. There are a few of us pushing 1500+fp of torque. That is massive. Correct me if I'm wrong Steve C., but I believe Alky cars are around there. We are very lucky to have transmissions that will handle that for even a little while, or am I thinking way off base here? I'm up for a trans test in the mag. Should prove interesting.

I'm getting a beer to go with the popcorn. :bigglasse Any one need one while I'm up?:beerchug:

I'm getting a beer to go with the popcorn. :bigglasse Any one need one while I'm up?:beerchug:
Yes, no popcorn for me.... just heavy on the BEER!:ro)

I'll have to pass, I'm not of age:( , wouldn't want to get you in trouble with the law.:eek: ):h

Trippin, get a couple of beers for me please.

Hopefully they'll have this all figgered out by the time I get back from vacation.

Your shift timing has to remain the same from beginning to end. There are lots of guys on this web site after a rebuild complain that it shifts weird until the tranny learns. Of course it does, the shift timing is wrong. By the time it learns the clutches have been worn down. Whatever life you had with the new clutches the learning time shortens the life.

That makes sense. But one thing I have noticed on my stage 3 suncoast is that the clutches looked fine. Others have also mentioned that thier clutches looked fine after tearing thier stuff apart. I did alot of "relearning" on my allison. I cleared the taps many times. I would think after all that and flooging the thing for 10k before a bearing tossed its cookies and whiped the trans out that some clutch wear woulda been evidednt. Maybe it was wearing a bit but I guess what is acceptable wear and what is "more" wear is maybe 2 different things? Maybe my stage 5 is worse about things??? Have you seen increased wear? What have you seen to make you think this is a problem? If you were having a shift overlap would you not have a hard shift? The ATS is the king of hard shifts and I havent heard of people having problems nuking the clutches in them?

I dont know **** about trans as you can see by my posts and questions. I am interested as hell in all this and its a whole lot more entertaining than actually working;) Plus I'm always looking for a better mouse trap. I'm just here to learn. Also did you see my other q's? they may have gotten burried in this lenghty thread. PM me if you feel the need

Am I too late for the popcorn and beer? :drinking:


Is it time for a group hug yet? :hug:



:Nothing_f

Is it time for a group hug yet? :hug:




I havent had that much beer

Am I too late for the popcorn and beer? :drinking:


Is it time for a group hug yet? :hug:



:Nothing_f

Group HUG...........Is it time for a group hug yet? :hug:

Ok here it is.............:idiot: :confuzeld :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :shootself

Make one little comment and every body:idiot:

Well rat, if it's any consolation, I'm interested learning more about the internal workings of the transmission upgrades as well....And I don't even OWN an automatic.....Lots of differing theorys makes for interesting and enlightening reading...

I havent had that much beer):h No Kidding!):h

Group HUG...........Is it time for a group hug yet? :hug:

Ok here it is.............:idiot: :confuzeld :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :shootself
Ouch, That hurt


Can't we all just........get along ? :hug: LOL

45 minutes, 2 potty breaks and a Hershey chocolate bar later I finally finished reading this thread. Geesh! :D

Try to keep this all in perspective. If you think the guys/gals that built the space shuttle didn't have differences of opinion and very heated arguments/debates you would be wrong! :confused: Someone else mentioned that it is through dialogue such as this that better products come to market, HOW TRUE! :exactly:

IMHO this was a couple of tranny heavyweights slugging through an issue that may have perplexed them for a while. This time they just did it in public, granted way over most of our heads, but in public just the same! :o: They may gain a little intel through these evolutions, though they won't likely admit it. :ro)

While there was some blood splattered around on this thread in the end these guys likely went back to their benches, rechecked their facts/figures and even worked through the other guys analysis as well to see just how sound it was and refine their processes. While they may not like it they are likely "2 peas in a pod" with strikingly similar interests, oh and ego's to boot! ):h One can only imagine what kind of tranny they could build together? :rolleyes:

Hopefully I'm a couple of years away from needing to upgrade my tranny and these issues will be "old hat" by then. Good intel guys! Thanks JJ :)

In a couple of years we will have electric motors, generators if you will, that will replace the torque converter and add horsepower to boot. Our armed forces are allready testing some Duramaxes ( not available to the public ) that we would kill for. :ro)

mike

Ratlover,


You haven't heard of guys have issues with ATS trans? Have you talked with Super Diesel?

You said your stage 3 was perfect why would you go to stage 5, why not go with another stage 3?

Because we need to test them in our own trucks before we sell them to customers, plus we give feedback and recomendations to the manufacturer and as a result we get them at a killer price.

Ratlover,


You haven't heard of guys have issues with ATS trans? Have you talked with Super Diesel?

You said your stage 3 was perfect why would you go to stage 5, why not go with another stage 3?
Here we go...............:eek:

That is a 12 pack or better yet a 30 can case story.............:cool:

Ratlover,


You haven't heard of guys have issues with ATS trans? Have you talked with Super Diesel?

You said your stage 3 was perfect why would you go to stage 5, why not go with another stage 3?
Just one six-pack will do for this one.

Stevan,

Ratlover originally purchased a stage III kit for his trans. During installation of his kit the P-2 brg was incorrectly installed. When the brg race finally gave up it inflicted damage to every planet, ring gear, and sun gear P-1,P-2,P-3.
Because of the extensive damage he wisely decided to purchase a complete trans assy (Stage V) as the cost of parts would have been horrendous to do otherwise.

Smoop

Ratlover originally purchased a stage III kit for his trans. During installation of his kit the P-2 brg was incorrectly installed. When the brg race finally gave up it inflicted damage to every planet, ring gear, and sun gear P-1,P-2,P-3.
Because of the extensive damage he wisely decided to purchase a complete trans assy (Stage V) as the cost of parts would have been horrendous to do otherwise.

Smoop
Soooooo......THAT'S what happened to Rat's tranny.....ouch! :( Thought that was a state secret.

Tom :pig:

Just one six-pack will do for this one.

Stevan,

Ratlover originally purchased a stage III kit for his trans. During installation of his kit the P-2 brg was incorrectly installed. When the brg race finally gave up it inflicted damage to every planet, ring gear, and sun gear P-1,P-2,P-3.
Because of the extensive damage he wisely decided to purchase a complete trans assy (Stage V) as the cost of parts would have been horrendous to do otherwise.

Smoop
OUCH!

Man I hate to even think of that kind of carnage happening to anyone!:eek:

As simple as these transmissions look it is easy to make that kind of error.... I know i wouldn't trust myself to install this stuff... not by a long shot. Not that i am not mechanically inclined, but there are some things best left up to ATS Suncoast DTT and their Trained installers!!:exactly:

Just one six-pack will do for this one.

Stevan,

Ratlover originally purchased a stage III kit for his trans. During installation of his kit the P-2 brg was incorrectly installed. When the brg race finally gave up it inflicted damage to every planet, ring gear, and sun gear P-1,P-2,P-3.
Because of the extensive damage he wisely decided to purchase a complete trans assy (Stage V) as the cost of parts would have been horrendous to do otherwise.

Smoop
Did ratlover do the install himself? How easy is it to mess up that bearing install?

I thought you were mechanically RE-clined, Juice! (Or was that "alcoholically reclined???)

You don't need to know how to install this stuff, because you're the Beta Test Ho!!!!! :ro) You just get to enjoy it!!!!! :cool2:

Tom :pig:

Yes, Rat did his own. Ended up being a very expensive tranny. :(

I thought you were mechanically RE-clined, Juice! (Or was that "alcoholically reclined???)

You don't need to know how to install this stuff, because you're the Beta Test Ho!!!!! :ro) You just get to enjoy it!!!!! :cool2:

Tom :pig:

Yes, Rat did his own. Ended up being a very expensive tranny. :(

Well, when guys start hitting big numbers (and trailering with them all the time) we will see the flexplate market explode (pun intended)

Word to the Wise.... you guys over 600 pferdestaarken better start checking them at least once a year!

Sorry bout that phil, I did not know it was a secret. In defense of Phil, that is a very easy mistake to make and I'll bet he is not the first or last to make it.
I'll bet most of you guys remember some bonifide mistake when working on your truck. I know I have made my share. I still remember 41 years ago when I rebuilt a 57 Caddy Jet-A-Way, after 2 days of in & out with the trans. trying to figure out why there was no 3rd gear, the guy I was working for ask "did you line up that feed hole in the bushing with the one in the drum?" I answered "what hole?"
How could that happen? When you are 19 you know everything.
Smoop

I can tell you for sure that Phil's mistake is easy to make. I can tell you that everybody in here that builds for a living has done that and likely something worse. I know I have...

It cost me dearly too, but lesson learned.

Just one six-pack will do for this one.

Stevan,

Ratlover originally purchased a stage III kit for his trans. During installation of his kit the P-2 brg was incorrectly installed. When the brg race finally gave up it inflicted damage to every planet, ring gear, and sun gear P-1,P-2,P-3.
Because of the extensive damage he wisely decided to purchase a complete trans assy (Stage V) as the cost of parts would have been horrendous to do otherwise.

Smoop




6 pack...... I don't think so
That was too easy I didn't even get to finish the first beer :rippedhan



Stefan K, I got 5 more to go......... your turn :stirthepo

Bonafide mistake , otherwise known as a doozie. I have not done that, yet, tonight.):h :cool:

Hey Mike, lets not have any "firsts" any time soon. K? :Nonono:

):h

Hey Mike, lets not have any "firsts" any time soon. K? :Nonono:

):h
I will try and contain that to my dreams. :eek: ):h

Bonafide mistake , otherwise known as a doozie. I have not done that, yet, tonight.):h :cool:I did NOT need to read that tonight:eek: ...see you Monday:D

Oooooh!!! Oooooh!!! It was ME!!! I did!!! I did!!!

:angel:

:beerchug: I am just waiting for somebody to say they invented the internet, cause I know somebody here did.

As per what happened to Rat's trans..... we were all mortified to hear about it. All we knew was it blew. Didn't know why. Yeah, mistakes happen. No malice intended.

Tom

Is dealing with that bearing part of a basic transgo install, or just something related to the SC LVL 3?

Yes, installing the basic transgo kit you would have touched this bearing.

Is dealing with that bearing part of a basic transgo install, or just something related to the SC LVL 3?The bearing is relative to all the installs.
As I understand it from talking with Joe it's the only one that installed in the opposite direction (Flipped) as opposed to the others.

:nopics:

The bearing is relative to all the installs.
As I understand it from talking with Joe it's the only one that installed in the opposite direction (Flipped) as opposed to the others.

Okay, does that you INTENTIONALLY flipp the bearing, or leave it as it was removed? :eek:

The book I got from MIKE L. shows the direction of the bearings in an exploded view and even shows a side view for inner/outer race direction........

I actually put one of mine in backwards.............as I read one thing and misread it..........it bothered me so much, the uncertainty that I tore the tranny down again just to double check................I was right..........I put it in backwards............the book said something about catastrophic failure if installed incorrectly.........

I have 15K miles on mine now and was 100% sure that the tranny was assembled correctly when I had it reinstalled............

I drove Mackin and my buddy John nuts as I was a triple checker on everything.........to the point I may have been annoying them.......:cool:

As the others have said...........it is quite an easy mistake to make...........I just was uncertain and decided to take a peak again...........it could have been a situation like Rat's for me as well...........

SH!T HAPPENS..............:rolleyes:

Okay, does that you INTENTIONALLY flipp the bearing, or leave it as it was removed? :eek:
Can't recall if the stock direction is the same but it was explained to me that this is the only bearing reversed for the upgrade. You might want to get with Joe or Mike L on that one. I didn't see when some of the stock guts were being pulled so I never saw the direction in which the OEM bearing was being removed. Wish I would have asked.

I Did it the hole thing 1hr 20 min

I Did it the hole thing 1hr 20 min In your dreams :blahblah::lol::muahaha::bleah::drinking::idiot:

I Did it the hole thing 1hr 20 min
If we knew what the hell you were talking about we might congratulate you. ):h

If we knew what the hell you were talking about we might congratulate you. ):h "the hole thing" whatever:eek:

Probably the time it took to read this "whole" thread.

You got it Just got back from 10 days in Russia

It wasnt a secret or I didnt mean to make it as such. I thought I told people who asked what the problem was. I didnt know what the deal was till Joe got it back and did another autopsy. I thought it was installed right. I thought I double checked it and got it right? Looked at the transgo book. lasted 10k, trans still shifted albiet nasty depending the power. Clutches looked good, hard parts have chunks outa them. It was cheaper to buy a stage 5 than to buy all the stuff that I fragged.

Yes I have heard of people nuking ATS trans. I know of people nuking suncoast trans. I though my question was pretty clear. If this hard shifting is a hang up then you should be seeing lotsa wear according to you correct? Guys that have been running moderate power with the co pilot set to kill should be seeing wear right? Maybe I'm going by second hand wrong info thats why i am asking. I have never seen an ATS trans innards after its been ran awhile. How bout answering any of my questions with some actual data instead of just alluding to one of your cometitons products not being good. If all this info you have is secret then fine, tell me that, I understand and respect that. I was keeping an open mind and looking into other avenues. I'm always looking for a better mousetrap. If you want to PM me or call me then cool I understand. But you havent shown me crap about why yours is better just a bunch of :blahblah: I'm starting to have my doubts.........

You got it Just got back from 10 days in Russia
:cool2: