Hey all,

Last July I agonized for a month about buying a D/A and eventually went with a 1500 5.3 because of all of the injector horror stories I was hearing about. I really like my 1500 but would still like to have a D/A eventually.

I was under the impression demand was high for these trucks and was surprised when I wandered onto a lot here in southern ca and not only did they have tons of crew cab D/A's, they had TWO trucks that were exactly what I wanted. 2500 D/A, LT, EC, SB, 4X4, Silver Birch.

I was hanging around waiting for a friend and took one for a drive to get the salesman to shut-up and of course it was sweet. Without me prompting, he offered me $7000.00 off sticker($45,000.00) on the lot and said they could do a lot better if I was willing to put a little effort into it. He later told me D/A sales had dropped off and they were dealing trying to drop their inventory of them.

It is way too early for me to be thinking about trading my truck but I was wondering what you guys think about his comments about dropping sales. I know sales are down for all the automakers maybe there are some serious bargains in the future?? Possibly??:)

Hmmm, sounds pretty interesting. I'll wager that it is a combination of factors that you've listed at least a couple of already. I think the overdemand and shortage that many of us experienced in 2001 to 2003 has been finally "caught up" in the supply side of the system. I think that overall vehicle sales in the market have slumped. I think GM has some money/competition woes that are starting to frighten the dealer level. The MSRP on the new trucks is up about $6000 to $7000 (my '01 with the very same setup stickered at $41000) which can't be helping saleability. There's always been a lot of "wiggle room" on the MSRP on the Dmax. AND last and not least - you were talking to a SALESMAN - who will say anything to try and get the sale. How do you know that a salesman is lying? His mouth is moving!

Some dealers have played up the "shortage" as part of a sales ploy. When the DMAX first came out there was a demand in excess of supply. Situation has changed 180 degrees since. Plenty of them on the market and you should be able to get one at invoice, maybe a bit less. Dealers think they have a problem now, wait a little while and todays problems will seem minor.

According to BROKER's poll fuel prices are having a hand in peoples' outlook on diesel trucks. No surprise....

You can buy a lot of gasoline for the price of the Duramax/Allison package especially with regular gas being cheaper than diesel. $40K-plus to at the most pull a bass boat doesn't seem too bright anymore. Just another factor that affects demand...

The old cost analysis myth of diesel vs gas. You gotta compare 2500 gas to 2500 diesel, Not a 1500 to a 2500. If gas prices where round a dollar than i might buy this. I tow a bass boat almost every other weekend. Sure has saved me some money over my 2500HD 6.0l. IF THATS ALL I DID it would more than make up my payment diff between the 2 trucks. Right now diesel is running 6-8% higher than gas in Texas.

My Dmax gets 20%-30% better mileage than my old 02 6.0l 2500 HD ext cab.
Towing went from 10-11mpg on the 6.0l, to 13-14+mpg on the dmax. My payment is roughly $50 dollar diff between the 2 a month. I fill up 1 tank less a month. That's over $50 now on a 26g tank. Seems to be break even to me. And if you consider resale value its seems the dmax is a better value over any gas truck.

This is just my opinion, go ahead and beat me up.

The 3500 I have on order is $101 over GM invoice price and I'll get the rebate in effect at time of delivery - currently $1000. Hopefully this may be go up in April if indeed sales are soft.

Started looking for a GMC D/A One Ton Dually about two months ago in AZ while there for the winter. We're back home in CA now & will order the truck later this morning. It's been pretty hard to make a really good deal on one of these trucks, especially with a trade-in. The standard deal has been pretty much low book for mine & $500 over invoice for the GMC. I've bought a lot of vehicles over the years & know how to deal, but this time around it's been pretty standard. I guarantee you, there is no surplus of this particular truck on the lots.

I plow snow in the winter.My 2 plow trucks are a 91 GMC2500LD TBI 350,and my 2000 Dodge 2500 CTD. In an average storm the trucks are out 12-20 hrs total easily.The Dodge is pushing 12 ft of plow+ and does an average of 2-3 x the work the GMC does due to the plows,and weight of the truck.I burn 2 tanks in an average storm with the GMC at a cost of around 100-120 dollars,the Dodge burns about 3/4 of a single tank.It does have a 34 gal tank and the Gm has a tiny 26,but either way i save 50-60 bucks every event. I had 15 events this yr. Ive plowed 4 yrs with the Cummins now.so just in plowing snow,which only accumulates 2-4000 miles a yr if that,Im saving on average 700-800 a yr x 4 yrs that alone is 3000 dollars over 4 yrs.The rest of my 3 seasons driving easily saves me 50 a month in fuel.Finally guess what a 112000 mile 2000 Dodge 2500 with V8/V10 is worth,NOTHING. a 2000 with a Cummins w 112000 is worth about 5000 more than if it had a V8/v10 in it. So the diesels pay off big time,all around if you are working them.

I bought mine in Dec. and my local dealer didn't have a single one. He searched three states and gave me a list to choose from. Out of the three trucks available I picked one. Consider yourself lucky to have that kind of choice.

Not to beat you up BMCD, but going by your numbers over 100K miles with gasoline being about 8% more expensive than gasoline the oil burner saves approximately $2700 dollars---not covering the initial investment and soon to be out of warranty...where many folks trade them in. Not even counting the potentially higher maintenance costs of the diesel. Starting with gasoline at $1.95 and diesel at $2.10 you'll put 200K miles on that truck before the fuel savings pay for the power package. For some folks that might be okay. I don't claim to know anyone's situation. I'll let the math and what other diesel owners have been saying speak for themselves.

IMO, the resale value of anything is not impressive in our economy. It is a buyers market and it's not easy to get the NADA trade-in or retail sales prices on nearly any vehicle. So yeah you might get more for the trade, but you paid more up front, whoopee...

On the other hand, I love freedom and freedom of choice. I too drive a diesel swilling Duramax and thoroughly enjoy it. I say more power to you if that is your choice! I would not have it for the Government to tell us we can't enjoy these powerful trucks. They might be money pits when you start tinkering with them, but they are a source of joy (and income) for many of us.

I would simply caution people about this kind of investment. Going by the rule of 72 that $40K truck could instead be an $80K investment minus the cost of a more reasonably priced form of transportation in a little more than seven years. Save $10K now and you have $20K later. Heck some people will be financing for six or even seven years...crazy I tell you. I mean nobody really wants to work until their 60 or 65 do they?

Anyway, it's fairly obvious people are considering this, which I think is a good thing.

I bought a 01 Duramax when they first came out, hard to find and in demand. Ford still had the 7.3, and Dodge was still as loud as can be.

Since then its all changed, Ford had a terrible first year with the 6.0, but I am seeing alot of them around now, it the truck of choice for contractors. But still I see a host of issues people seem to be having with the newer ones also. Dodge has quieted down the Cummins beefed up the Auto, and with the new crew cab, I think they will increase their market share. GM is stumbling with the Injector issues now. its got me worried.

While my 03 truck runs good, I have had to replace, the steering pump hose, left wheel axle, CD player is going out, my center console broke(top hinge exploded), all before 55,000 miles. So while I am happy overall, when I upgrade, I will no doubt look at the competiton, and really interested in how the Mega Cab Dodge looks, as I have a real respect for any motor that has the reputation the Cummins has. Just wish they could stick the Allison behind it, this alone is one of the reasons I bought the D/A again, its the best Auto tranny on the truck market and could again be the deciding factor.

I just bought mine about a month ago 2005 crew cab duramax with allison LT stickered for 47,@#% and he told me if I wanted it that day he would do it for $38,000 so I went shoping and NO ONE could touch that price so I bought it. They had a few on the lot but he was selling them quick..

NEVER trust a car salesman!:exactly: You as a buyer have the responsibility to do you homework and make an informed purchase. Most of these salesmen know less about what they are selling than everybody on this forum.

BTW T-Rex, what is the rule of 72???:confused: :confused:

Buying a new vehicle is like rolling dice, you never know what you will end up with. I have had several and they were all different. My DMAX is the first new vehicle that I have not had to send back to the dealer for various repairs, so maybe things are looking up. I have read a lot about the injectors but no problems so far................hope my luck holds out!

As for fuel, the oil companies are once again screwing us all. Diesel over here is the same as regular. No savings to be had at all. BUT..............I still enjoy the hell out of driving it. No regrets!;)

Around here it is dang near impossible to find any D/A's... maybe one or two for every four dealerships. I did notice the Dodge dealerships have quite a few cummins on the lot though.

Dan

BTW T-Rex, what is the rule of 72???
I believe he's refurring to "The Rule of 72s" (actually plural) which is the mumbo-jumbo financial hocus-pocus that is used to calculate interest on a loan note such as an auto or mortgage. Basically, it's the formula for paying back the interest first and principal later and how it's ratioed and balanced over the amount and term of the note.

I don't know why financing is even an issue since you can get 0%.):h

My local dealer does not any D/A in stock. A friend ordered one and did not take it. It was sold the next day. Probably differs form dealer to dealer.

I had the choice of 0% and no money back or 3.69% and $3000 back. The second was cheaper so I took it.

I think the rule of 72 is this:72 divided by your interest rate equals the number of years it will take for your investment to double in value. In other words if you had a $5000 investment that was earning 6%/year in 12 years that investment would be worth $10000. 72/6=12.

[QUOTE=BMCD]The old cost analysis myth of diesel vs gas. You gotta compare 2500 gas to 2500 diesel, Not a 1500 to a 2500. If gas prices where round a dollar than i might buy this. I tow a bass boat almost every other weekend. Sure has saved me some money over my 2500HD 6.0l. IF THATS ALL I DID it would more than make up my payment diff between the 2 trucks. Right now diesel is running 6-8% higher than gas in Texas.

Everyone,
We've got an ongoing discussion and a sexy cost comparison excell spreadsheet going over at http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?p=523350 . You should stop and check it out, you WILL be surprised.

Gm has a 45 day supply on hand . This according to where I buy my trucks.

I went through my local dealer's lot yesterday and also noticed quite a few diesels. This dealer only has maybe 20 full-size trucks at the most on the lot at any one time, and I counted 7 that had the Duramax. Quite a few for this small outfit in a small town. I was also surprised at the lack of 1/2 tons they had.

I heard they can't give away the 8.1's.

Just got mine last week,with 0 for 60 months deal. They had just one ext cab and they had to trade with a dealer in another state to get that one.

That term is rule of 78's.

Long bed 2500HDs are what are hard to find! It took me two months to find one that suited me (Duramax/Allison LT Extended Cab; not Silver Birch, XM RAdio Bucket seats and that wonderful chromatic outside rear view mirror). I looked at the Super Glide hitch bud didn't want to fool with the adaptor plate on the 5er, so I picked up my Long Bed GMC 2500HD D/A EC LT on Saturday at invoice and 0% interest for five years. They tried to get me to put up $2,500 cash down beyond the tax and license and I walked out. They called me back the next day and said they'd take my deal. I am still in shock that I bought that much truck, but I'm damned glad I got what I wanted.

[QUOTE=BMCD]

Everyone,
We've got an ongoing discussion and a sexy cost comparison excell spreadsheet going over at http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?p=523350 . You should stop and check it out, you WILL be surprised.It is suprising but, First, the cost delta is not $7000, it is near 4500 when you compare to an automatic. First, there is the $1000 break with the duramax/allison combo, and second, with an LS the delta needs to include the cost of an automatic with the 6.0. For stick vs. stick comparison it may be near $6k. Second, take a guess at what gas/diesel prices will be over the next 3-5 years as an average. My guess is that gas will average $2.50 +/gal, diesel similar.
Finally, add a line for payback with towing. That is were I see the big payback. 8-9mpg vs. 13 or so.

using these numbers no suprise to me, it take >100K to payback for city or highway gains, 40-50K for towing.

Then, for me it paid back the first trip when I could go up hills at 65 in overdrive and pass slower traffic if I wanted to. That made it worhwhile and the mileage payback a moot point. Hills that before were a 45-50 mph slow lane staying behind all the slow traffic were a thing of the past.

txguppy.

FWIW, RichLube is correct on the rule of 72. You can do search on Google for it, as it is a commonly used term with investors and in the securities industry.

I have no idea what the others are talking about...rule of 72...and I don't think they know what they are talking about either. The formula is fairly accurate within typical return rates. A 10% return will double youi money in 7.2 months---lots of funds out there can do this and better.

txguppy.

FWIW, RichLube is correct on the rule of 72. You can do search on Google for it, as it is a commonly used term with investors and in the securities industry.

I have no idea what the others are talking about...rule of 72...and I don't think they know what they are talking about either.
Well, I knew what I was talking about - I was just talking about the wrong thing!:o: I confused it with the "Rule of 78s" (pretty close for an old guy with "Sometimers!"):)

Rule of 78s:
This is one rebate auto shoppers should avoid.
Some auto lenders still use the archaic and costly "Rule of 78s" formula to calculate a rebate of finance charges when a customer pays off a loan early. This rebate is actually a sneaky prepayment penalty.

"The Rule of 78s is a historical anachronism," says David Rubinstein, vice president of the Virginia Citizens Consumer Council. "It's simply another way of padding a loan."

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The Rule of 78s is a mathematical formula that was devised in the days before modern calculators. The formula was a quick way for lenders in the 1920s and 1930s to estimate payoff amounts when a customer paid ahead on an installment loan. It's still around today.

Also known as the sum-of-the-digits method, the Rule of 78s gets its name from the sum of the digits one through 12 -- the number of months in a year.

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I bought my CC D/A 3 weeks ago in southern California. The Dealer had to put out a hunt as I needed seating for 6. Out of the dealerships that service 24 milion people My selection wa 2 I had to choose from. He had to go pick it up from another dealer 40 miles away. My dealer (who is no small time) had 2 on his entire lot. D/As were still hard to find 3 weeks ago.....

0% isn't always the cheapest way to go. Depending on the cash rebate you give-up for 0% you will pay more. I financed through a local bank at 3.4% and applyed the cash rebate towards the truck. Saved over $1000.00 and had lower payments. Check the math before jumping on the 0% bandwagon.

Rob

It is suprising but, First, the cost delta is not $7000, it is near 4500 when you compare to an automatic. First, there is the $1000 break with the duramax/allison combo, and second, with an LS the delta needs to include the cost of an automatic with the 6.0. For stick vs. stick comparison it may be near $6k. Second, take a guess at what gas/diesel prices will be over the next 3-5 years as an average. My guess is that gas will average $2.50 +/gal, diesel similar.
Finally, add a line for payback with towing. That is were I see the big payback. 8-9mpg vs. 13 or so.
Whoa now, let's talk apples to apples here. If you want to talk rebates, first realize that they are REGIONAL. Second, you've got to go with rebates on both. The D/A ONLY has a 1000 break, where as the last time I was at the dealer, it was 2500 on a gasser, for a difference of $1500 in the opposite direction.

None of this matters though, because once you factor in resale value, the delta almost disappears.


I'm wondering, did you get ahold of the older spreadsheet that doesn't have the resale and loan costs added in? I've been trying hard to keep it current, but I may have screwed up.

0% isn't always the cheapest way to go. Depending on the cash rebate you give-up for 0% you will pay more. I financed through a local bank at 3.4% and applyed the cash rebate towards the truck. Saved over $1000.00 and had lower payments. Check the math before jumping on the 0% bandwagon.

Rob
Ok, lets do the math. I paid $1,000 more because of the 0% financing. I financed $30,000. Now at 3.4% that would be $1,020 approx. in the first year. I guess if you are only financing $10,000 then you would be better off taking the $1,000 discount but in my case I am way ahead paying $1,000 for the truck at 0%.

I agree with Otis. I financed a total of $37,000. and the 0% was way better than the $1000 rebate. I set up all my loans in Microsoft Money, and I sure like the fact that every dollar goes toward the principal. My monthly payment is $618 so every year of payments knocks off $7416 what I owe.

Ben

Ok, lets do the math. I paid $1,000 more because of the 0% financing. I financed $30,000. Now at 3.4% that would be $1,020 approx. in the first year. I guess if you are only financing $10,000 then you would be better off taking the $1,000 discount but in my case I am way ahead paying $1,000 for the truck at 0%.

Good points, when I bought mine 8/04 they were offering $2000.00 rebate or the 0%, and I only financed 27k. I guess thats the difference. Still pays to do some checking on rebates, rates, and such. When buying my wife yukon XL in '03, they had $3000.00 rebate or 0%. These rebates were added to any other rebates at the time. I guess they will change the rebate when their dept ratio varys to much.Rob

I don't know about the rest of the Conutry, but around here gas prices and diesel prices average out to be about the same over the entire year. If anything, diesel is a few cents less. For 6-7 months of the year, gas cost as much or more then diesel. Until this winter, diesel has never been more then a dime higher then gas. Right now it is about 10-20 cents higher, with an average of about 17 cents higher.
While from May through October, gas goes as much as 40-50 cents higher then diesel.

Since I bought my truck in Aug. 2002, I have kept a document of every thing I have done to my truck, mostly for fuel and mileage. I also keep track of gas prices. Diesel has averaged 7 cents below regular gas over the 31 months I have kept these records.
With an over all fuel mileage of 17.809 I am very happy! Heck; my last truck was a 1/2 ton, and I never got close to that in any fillup, let alone an over all average. And I never towed like I do now, nor did I ever haul loads half as heavy.

My last truck got a best tank of 15.32, and an average of less then 13.7,
In my Family, there are 3 V-10 Fords, 5 big block V-8 GM`s, and one V-10 Dodge, According to the owners of those trucks, only one claims more then 12 mpg, and 6 claim less then 10 mpg, while, the other 2 don't keep track at all.

Getting back on track here; The Manufactures has such large factory rebates, and insentives, they had to raise the sticker price in order to keep those discounts that the general public expects now. They are making more money now then they ever have per sale.
I have been seeing commercials on TV where the big three are offering close to $10,000 insentives on several models. Heck; even Dodge is/was offering $7,000 on mini-vans, and they sale more of those things then just about all others combined.

Fuel prices are hurting some on the new trucks, but like others have pointed out, if comparing 3/4 ton too 3/4 ton (Or larger!) A new diesel is the way to go for most. As the truck will cost no more then $3,500 over an other wise same truck (Meaning big block and same tranny!) and with a 60%-100% increase in fuel mileage, the upfront cost goes away pretty fast.

alas, i enter the dreaded gas vs diesel debate. i will only offer that each person, or persons(wifey), sit down, and look the whole cash layout of each vehicle, and their intended usage, and TRY to remove the idea of "diesel,ARGH,ARGH,ARGH"(poor tim taylor bit). if you can afford a diesel, and will utilize one for what it is worth (towing, long trips, engine life-that means keep it for a while) then by all means buy one. if you decide that you may be stretching your income, go thru trucks like a fashion show, or think that you can make up the extra money in gas savings, (it is better, but only slightly)(it's a freakin' 7,000lb truck for cryin out loud) you will not, and will be upset with your findings. it is a fine truck, then again so is the gasser. just don't think the trucks are THAT much differant for "normal usage" that the diesel outshines that much. i told myself i would not do this:(

I have not heard of any injector problems, or had any! I had my last diesel for seven years, and no problems. The diesel option is a $7,000.00 waste of money if you don't put it to work! I use my DMAX/Allison for my electrical contracting buisness, and it saves my company big money in fuel and maintenance. I also use it to pull a 12,000 pound fifth wheel, and average 15 mpg doing so, and 16+mpg empty. A gasoline engine of the same torque and HP will never get half the mpg of the diesel pulling a 12,000 pound load, and that is where you benifit from a diesel " Saving $$$$ in fuel pulling heavy loads". In other words if your just going to drive to the grocery store, "BUY A GASOLINE ENGINE" you'll save yourself $7,000.00 because the diesel will only give you a couple mpg's average empty over the gas truck.
RICKYY, I cant say enough great things about the DMAX/Allison! " It's a Medium Duty drive train, all the way to the rear axle".:)

2003 2500HD, CC, LB, DMAX/Allison, EDGE-Juice, 4" exhaust, K&N.

its prob cause of the new body style?

I have a 2004 gasser that replaced a 2002 gasser. Do I want a diesel? Yes.. I'll end up with one soon. Only because I haven't had one yet. And the fact that I like the way turbos respond to tinkering, like the Grand National I had. I bought the gasser because of the obscene amount of rebates. Shoot me. At the time the diesel and it's "premium" was about 8,000 more. I don't tow, but I do plow snow. When the difference between the two comes down to 5-6000 dollars,bottom line, including the rebate swing, I'll do it. As far as a business perspective, MY perspective, a diesel does not make sense in my case. We keep trucks up to 100,000 then we dump.We can keep them for 5 years or ten years, but at 100K, they go. I'm the only one who trades when I want. Yes the diesel will save me about 2000.00 over the 100,000 miles, according to todays calc, but the initital costs wipe it out. BE ADVISED. THIS IS MY OPINION AND MY SITUATION. AGAIN I DO NOT TOW.
When I get my diesel, it will be strictly emotional. Same goes when I buy a hot-rod.