WHAT ARE THE UPS AND DOWNS OF IT? :confused:

Downs are; Lifting the heads or blowing a gasket with to much water/meth mix. Thats why my system runs smaller nozzles at higher pressure and atomization. I did this last summer. Toned it down alot from that though. Nozzles were to big and I was getting liquid droplets. Liquid dosn't compress. That's why you want higher atomization like a mist going in. It does raise cylinder pressures though no matter what you do. The alcohol is what adds most of the extra power and wicks away the heat as well though. Many have towed with it for years to keep the EGTs in check. It has also been used for a long time in over the road trucks and truck and tractor pullers. It is a very inexpensive alternative to adding some extra power and cooling.

Sd, What Is The Down Of To Much Meth In The Mix? The Reason I Ask Is Because You Only Told Of What To Much Water Will Do.

Massive detonation with to much meth. It has to be cut back major if you run high amounts of meth percentages.

Does anyone have a back to back dyno comparison with just water meth?
Just trying to save myself some dyno time. :D

Just trying to save myself some dyno time. :D
164 dyno pulls, Use a load cell dyno or don't bother!

Who you kidding? ):h

:lol: I think you won't be happy with someone else's results. You just need to do it yourself.Does anyone have a back to back dyno comparison with just water meth?
Just trying to save myself some dyno time. :D

It works believe me. 127 hp back to back runs and done more than once

i did some dyno testing in this thread http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21901
even with a large stack it made close to 40extra hp, almost the same hp gain as on a stock tune, very consistent

works fine with lp, might be to much timing with some stacks and lp being used

from what sd and other members that are running, those numbers sound the same, egt reduction of 200degrees, i have seen

a large tank is a big concern when using for pulling, i go threw my winsheild washer in less than two minutes of continues use

50/50 mix works the best, but have used water byitself and works ok, not as much hp or egt reduction, but less timing advance as well

some tunning has to be done on your own setup, to find how much water for your hp level, SD has done much work to fine tune what works for the hp levels we run with his sise nozzel and pump pressure

to large of water droplets can be a severe problem, to much water will bog the motor if not enought air is running threw the motor

caution should be taken for the inventers of their own system, and also never use the current wi systems with nitrous, too much cooling:badidea:

Fredw,

I have a few questions,

Hows your WI system hooked up to spray? More specifically,

1-What psi is it set to come on at and is it done with a HOBBS switch?
2-Single stage or 2 stage??
3-Does the system increase the water pump volt (in turn increase pressure) as boost increases or how is water flow increased with boost/rpm?
4-What size nozzles are you running and what pressures.

Thanks in advance.

Eric

What kind of Dyno.It works believe me. 127 hp back to back runs and done more than once

The W/M system is set up on a Hobbs switch to come on around 15-18 psi (it can be custom tailored). It is a single stage. The voltage is not regulated. If it is done like this, you would need variable nozzle orfice sizes to combat the problem of liquid droplets going into the engine because there is not sufficent pressure to atomize it all. You could run a solenoid to keep one nozzle closed untill a certain boost is achieved, but I don't know how well it would hold up in the corrosive environment the meth provides. The nozzles are a 488ml at 60psi. the pump puts out about 230psi with those two nozzles. The pump pressure will vary with different size nozzles, and amount of them (3 nozzles will have less pressure than two of them of the same size).

deleted my thread, SD answered it, as i was writing mine, thanks sd

Good discussion! JJ likes intel! :cool: WI is definitely in my trucks future. SD's system is one I'm looking at since it is tried and proven. I do have a question though. There is another DP vendor that manufactures WI systems that are dual stage, that is one nozzle kicks in at lower PSI, say 4-15 with a very fine mist, with both engaged at higher PSI, say above 16. I kind of like that idea. ;)

I don't hit 16+ boost often except for very hard accelerations or towing heavy up inclines, conversely that is when you need WI the most for EGT reduction. I do however like the idea of having the added lubrication and cleaner burn at lower boost. :)
For those of us that aren't looking to nail it or race our trucks, moreso just give the engine the best possible running conditions, is the dual stage a better setup for low boost daily driving? :) JJ

Just for ever day driving (low boost and power), you can shut off one nozzle if needed. I use both all the time, but I am at at much higher elevation that is much dryer. I do have a single nozzle system that uses a larger nozzle but not to the extent of the twin nozzle setup. This might be a better idea in lower elevations with high humidity.

SD,

So If I understand it correctly, the system just adds a set amount (by the nozzle or nozzles) of water/meth at a certain boost pressure and higher boost (via HOBBS). Sounds like you run the pump maxed out (bypass the pressure switch on the pump??).

Are the nozzles made by you, or are they the ones from McMaster-Carr or the ones from SnowPerf?

488ml/min (I assume thats ml per minute) @ 60psi and you run 2 of them @ 230psi, damn, thats moving some fluid...At 230psi, thats approx 955ml/min from each nozzle.

I'm interested in purchasing some nozzles, do you offer other sizes??

Wasn't sure how involved the system was.. The system I've seen in use, uses a controller that starts the flow (turns on the pump at 100-150psi) at whatever boost level (8-25psi) and increases the water flow (via pump pressure up to 200psi) depending on boost pressure (similar to the SnowPerf. system).

If set to come on at the same time how consistent is water meth. I am thinking of a small shot just for WOT and just to bring the EGT's down a bit. A main concern for me is consitency. I am going to be running a 2 stage spray set up and I think that the more crap you keep adding on top of the motor the more of a PITA it is to try and get it running consistant but droping my EGT's a bit does sound nice. HP gain dosnt really concern me. I would be using a mix heavy on water(I dont even have a problem not running meth) and mixed with meth(no washer fluid). Just thinking of a small shot. I really have no desire to hydrolock my motor or blow anything the F up.

Water meth a good idea or a bad idea for a bracket racer? Thoughts oppinions ideas???

like i said in less than two minutes, almost 4.5liters gone):h ):h and she loves it




488ml/min (I assume thats ml per minute) @ 60psi and you run 2 of them @ 230psi, damn, thats moving some fluid...At 230psi, thats approx 955ml/min from each nozzle.

).

If set to come on at the same time how consistent is water meth. I am thinking of a small shot just for WOT and just to bring the EGT's down a bit. A main concern for me is consitency. I am going to be running a 2 stage spray set up and I think that the more crap you keep adding on top of the motor the more of a PITA it is to try and get it running consistant but droping my EGT's a bit does sound nice. HP gain dosnt really concern me. I would be using a mix heavy on water(I dont even have a problem not running meth) and mixed with meth(no washer fluid). Just thinking of a small shot. I really have no desire to hydrolock my motor or blow anything the F up.

Water meth a good idea or a bad idea for a bracket racer? Thoughts oppinions ideas???
i think you should have no wories for braket racing, i run with it lots, prefer it for passing mutiple vehicles, i found that the 50/50 mix is very predictalbe for both hp and cooling, but adds a bit more timing, nothing to radical that is
winsheild washer makes a very safe combo with only about 30 percent methanal, probally can run with any combo or stack

i can atase that i have run like 30 to 40 tanks of water/methanal so far with no problems yet, you will also see a kick in the pants for boost, and no heads lifting off, install a valve on one of the nozzels for on off control for not full throttle driving and you can use it as a daily driver, and water consumtion will not be so much as well:)

I have a bud that goes trough a ton of meth and getting a few gallons of that wont be a problem. I wont use wiper fluid, I would mix my own.

I believe you stated on the dyno it is very predictable HP wise. That what every one is finding?

I've got 55 gallons of ethanol if anyone is interested in trying.......


I have a bud that goes trough a ton of meth and getting a few gallons of that wont be a problem. I wont use wiper fluid, I would mix my own.

I believe you stated on the dyno it is very predictable HP wise. That what every one is finding?

Good discussion! The dual stage system I referenced earlier is made by http://www.enginerunup.com/ . I saw his site referenced on another thread and checked the system out.

Of particular interest to me is the ability to engage WI at low boost(say 5-14psi), yet have the capacity to engage additional WI at higher boost(16psi+). His system also notifies you when the WI is engaged(at throttle) and disengaged. I like that approach as well. In my case I don't peg 16+ psi boost that often, Mama JJ never hits that high unless she's hauling our 5ver up a mountain, dang leadfoot! :o:

Has anyone tried one of these systems yet? SD, is your WI application spec'd more towards the high performance applications versus a daily driver setup with occasional towing? BTW, I really appreciate your straightforward responses. Unusual to find someone that puts their integrity above personal gain for a change. :ro)

I plan to install a large tank in the bed of my truck to minimize having to refill on a constant basis. Also easy to remove the pump setup and replace inlet nozzle without having to pull the tank each time I go for service at the stealership. Good intel guys! JJ :)

A superdiesel manifold would make dealership visits a snap. Just gota buy some extra hose clamps and a 30$ hose:rippedhan And you can put her back to stock in no time.

A superdiesel manifold would make dealership visits a snap. Just gota buy some extra hose clamps and a 30$ hose:rippedhan And you can put her back to stock in no time.its more then that now:eek:

yes the SD manifold, makes it very quick to be replaced back to stock, i leave the pump in the corner of the truck and have never had any problems with the techs, hide the relay a bit, and know problems

jj if you were looking for water added at a lower boost, what hp would you be running while towing, need to know that to figure out water rates, maybe a variable system could help you, SD will know the answer

The system I have played with is the alkycontrol.com. It's use alot in the turbo buick applications and is a variable system based off of boost pressure. Mr. Don is a great guy to deal with and is very helpful with questions and tuning.

Not trying to take anything away from SD. Just stating other options.

That system is a very good one. The duel stage looks like a winner. The only thing I don't like is the nozzle set up. This could be altered very easily for a system that could be quickly changed. The Nozzles on my system could incorporate that solenoid for a true duel stage set up. I will look into this further. The pressure switches could be better as well. I prefer the reliability of the Hobbs. You could run two of them for this set up with my new pressure block that moves all the Hobbs switches to the firewall and off of the SD manifold. A word of warning on running water/meth with N2O. The N2O shoots in at -127 bellow. It will freeze all water molecules in the intake instantly. The meth freezes at -210 below. See where I'm going with this? Never run straight meth into the engine with current size nozzles either. Massive detonation will be the result. If running with my current system, there is a valve that can be put into place of one of the nozzles hoses after the "Y". You can shut one nozzle off for low power running if desired. I run both at or just above stock power level as well. The valve can be had at any Home Depot or good Hardwear store.

Thanks SD. I asked about injecting water in along with N2O and a few people told me it wasnt an issue? Maybe it is. Regardless I will see were i come out with funny fumes and then go from there. Only time I would use water is at wot and strong concentrations of meth arnt on my mind.

My SD manifold may get a bit cramped. I may move my WG line to it instead of pre IC like it is now and with a nozzles in there and boost gauge tap and a hobbs. My stuff will start to look like a 8th grade science fair project.

fredw,

When I'm not towing I'm running E/J at level 3, when towing I'm at level 1, maybe level 2 on level ground here in FL. With E/J and WI I figure I'm looking at around 370 rwhp (270 base LLY HP+60E/JHP+40hp WI). At the lower boost I'm thinking moreso of the benefits of better engine lubrication and lower EGT's, then when towing I'm going to want the same but with more HP/TQ at higher boost. Make sense? :o: This is what appealed to me with the dual stage system. JJ :)

The 127hp was done on a mustang load cell. And that is on a heat soaked motor. Actually when adding a lot fuel on my truck the water/meth was the only way I could keep egts even close to a sane level if I wanted to pull a big trailer. I really need a bigger tank though as I'm running about half a gallon a minute with everything turned on. But it will pull like you won't believe. I came up Rabbit Ears pass which is basically 7% for seven miles and had to slow down for corners weighing 22450lbs. Anybody that has been up the Ears will know what I mean.

I never heard of anyone getting that kind of numbers with water/meth before. What gear were you in? Were you locked 1:1?The 127hp was done on a mustang load cell. And that is on a heat soaked motor. Actually when adding a lot fuel on my truck the water/meth was the only way I could keep egts even close to a sane level if I wanted to pull a big trailer. I really need a bigger tank though as I'm running about half a gallon a minute with everything turned on. But it will pull like you won't believe. I came up Rabbit Ears pass which is basically 7% for seven miles and had to slow down for corners weighing 22450lbs. Anybody that has been up the Ears will know what I mean.

so what your saying, is you will be at 60extra hp towing with the juice

well what i can tell with my own exsperiences last year climbing over salmo pass pulling a 10k trailer on a stock tune configuration (a 7 mile up to 12 percent grade) is that my egts peaked at 1333(truck was pined on cruise for most of the climb, down to less than 50mph) the last steepest part of the mountain in 84 degree ambient temp, but the rest of the time i ran with a stock tune 1000 degress was average

now going off of that info i would say you, wi might be something that could be set to come on at only higher boost levels if it was just cooling you were looking for, if you were looking for power as well as cooling all the time, then maybe a dual stage, with a smaller nozzel to come on at 12lbs and another at 22 giving you the extra hp and cooling down low with out bogging at that hp level, then at wot (lots of air moving)the second stage cuts in and you are getting maximum cooling and power

another advantage of this system would be the first stage would somewhat effect how long it takes the egt to increase to a critical point, and have lower egt for the second stage to control

mike have to play with this myself:ro)




fredw,

When I'm not towing I'm running E/J at level 3, when towing I'm at level 1, maybe level 2 on level ground here in FL. With E/J and WI I figure I'm looking at around 370 rwhp (270 base LLY HP+60E/JHP+40hp WI). At the lower boost I'm thinking moreso of the benefits of better engine lubrication and lower EGT's, then when towing I'm going to want the same but with more HP/TQ at higher boost. Make sense? :o: This is what appealed to me with the dual stage system. JJ :)

fredw,

The dual stage appears to offer the most flexibility and provide better operating conditions for the engine in terms of lubrication and EGT's. One additional benefit is we won't be adding that additional IC heat to the stack up front which should help with the overheating at higher elevations. :rolleyes:

It appears WI for LT is pretty much in its infancy and mods are going to be needed. Good discussion! Later. JJ :)