Ordered a 3500 SRW Durmax Xcab LB to pull big 35' Hitchhiker 5er. Know I'll need a hitch and brake controller; have read recommendations for Reese and Prodigy. Have heard of air bags and exhaust brakes. Are they worth the bucks, and if so, made by whom? Anything else important that I'm missing?

Welcome to the board New, You've come to the right place.

Weight of 35' HH would be needed to give you an educated guess to many of your questions, especially with a SRW truck. Air bags don't raise your rated limits, and exhaust brakes are great, if they do not void your warranty. Electric brake controlles..I favor the Prodigy, others have their own preferences. Hitch, I have a Fontaine, but B/W Turnover ball and Fifth attachment may be better if you want a clean bed when not towing. Reese fifth are also excellent hitches that can be removed, leaving two rails behind in your truck bed.

Come back with some figures, if you need more info.

R/F

Congrats on the new truck!!... I have the Prodigy and the B & W... Like them both... Buy the controller with the GM plug on the end of the harness and just plug it in... The B & W frees up the bed when you are not towing... See my Truck Pics. below..............Triffid

Mines a Hidden Hitch (18k). Controller is Prodigy, but if you can afford it you might want to look at the Brakesmart.

Welcome to the board!!!

Gonna chime in on the brake controller; I have Prodigy that I have been using for about 4 years now; got to test drive a truck with a BrakeSmart in it; hands down just blows away the Prodigy. With a rig that big, I would just avoid one upgrade and go straight to the BrakeSmart, you will not be disappointed. www.brakesmart.net

I will be ordering one for myself shortly.

Don't have the exact weights for the 5'er I'm getting as it is a ways away and I don't have the truck yet. Looked on NuWa website and similiar new unit says hitch weight of 2450# and UVW of 13,100# and GVWR of 16,000#. It is probably at max weight as it is the Champange series and has 10 batteries over the hitch for the solar panels. Person I'm buying it from recommends an Air Ride hitch.

N2T, welcome to the DP family. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Quote: Anything else important that I'm missing?<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

I'm surprised you haven't received any responses since posting the GVWR and pin weight of that 5ver, especially towing with a SRW truck. RF3 must be on the can, this is usually right down his alley. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Assuming you are close on the weights they are dry weights before anything is added to the 5ver. Guesstimate another 200-300 lbs on the pin with your stuff onboard and you are putting 2700-2800lbs on the rear end of the truck. Truck weighs in around 7600lbs, then add you, Mama, kids, dog, luggage, fuel, etc. at around 800-1k lbs and you are at 8600lbs before hooking up the 5ver. 8600+2700=11300lbs! GVWR for a 3500 SRW is 9900lbs IIRC. 1400lbs +- over. That is a lot of weight my friend. Allotting for 1200lbs additional weight (LP tanks/awning/ac/dishes/tv/clothes/stuff..., GCW you are looking around 22800lbs+-. You will be heavy. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif

The LLY seems to do a pretty good job of grade braking utilizing the EGR and backpressure. IIRC installing an exhaust brake on an LLY voids your warranty so you need to research that further. I haven't ran what I would consider a radical descent (say 7-8%+ for 4-5 miles) so I can't say with confidence that an exhaust brake isn't needed, especially at the weight you will be towing at. RF3, need your input on this. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/redface.gif

Also consider additional power/tq pulling that much weight up any significant grades to avoid extended periods of very high boost and potential overheating. E/J, Predator, BD and others can meet that need. EGT gauge is an absolutely requirement! Then upgrade the exhaust, lose the kitty and you'll see much better performance all around. IIRC Fredw tows in this range and has a good setup so he may have some good intel for you. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif Your likely putting $40k+- in the truck, another $2k and it becomes a beast! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif

You are smart to gather as much intel as possible before hitting the road! Be safe. JJ http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

JJ DuMax,
What does one do about being over on GCW and stay with a pickup truck? A dually won't increase GCWR as both are at 22k (as I understand it, only the GVWR is increased). I see a lot of sigs with bigger 5ers than mine being towed by pickups. Your sig says that you have a 40' toyhauler with a heavier truck than mine, you must be over GCW yourself when loaded.

My SRW is factory rated at 9900# for GVW. Several replys to my similiar weight question post indicates I will be in the 7100# range. 9900-7100 =2800. I think I should be ok with the factory 2450#. If I'm over, can I shift contents to the back of the 5er to lower the weight on the hitch? Salesman told me that's why Carriage puts a basement in the back of their 5ers. :rolleyes:

It was just confirmed by the dealer that exhaust brakes would void my warrantee and I bought the 6 year extended factory warrantee. :(

I'm afraid that I'm lost with the last paragraphs regarding performance. :confused: Remember, I'm new2this. Never drove a diesel and never have pulled a 5er!

New2this, you sound just like somebody I know very well about 8-9 months ago! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/redface.gif Guess who? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/hihi.gif IIRC the max 5ver weight on the 3500 dually was bumped to 16,400lbs or somewhere thereabouts in the 04 production year. You are correct in that my 5ver does exceed this weight when I load er' up for business runs, but never above GVWR of 18k lbs. :)

I actually found the 5ver I wanted first then bought the truck, this is why I went with a dually. The GVWR of the truck is the load the manufacturer has spec'd the truck for taking into consideration chassis, brakes, tranny, engine, tires, etc. There are certain components of your truck that are rated higher than GM spec's them, the rear axle is one example. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif

There is much discussion on the DP site about how much to tow with a SRW versus a DRW. This is why RF3 asked for the weight of the 5ver. The additional 1500# load capacity for the dually comes into play moreso for the additional pinweight versus the GCW of the rig. Remember you have the tow vehicle axles/brakes and the trailer axles/brakes to take into consideration.

You are correct in that the 3500 SRW and DRW's difference is mostly in the additional payload of the tires and stability of the rear end. Your truck will pull the 5ver. Your just a tad heavy on the rear end. Would I pull it, you bet! Do you have experience with towing 5vers or heavy loads? Always helps to know this when giving advice. ;)

There is plenty of intel on the Power and Performance forum as well as this forum. You will find that the Duramax/Allison is a superb platform, but some additional hp/tq makes it just about perfect. Those that chip their engines notice the Allison stays in gear better, pulls grades much better, some lower EGT's and increases MPG's. Conversely, with these programmers you need to monitor EGT's on long hard climbs, this is why I mentioned gauges. A higher flowing exhaust helps move exhaust quicker lowering EGT's and improving performance as well. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

This was all Greek to me when I first bought my truck. Here I am 8 months later with E/J w/attitude and MBRP 4" exhaust, so much for staying stock. ):h Glad to see you on the site asking questions. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/rockon.gif

Here's a link to GM's trailering specs for our trucks. There is about 1300# difference between the SRW and DRW on the 5ver trailer weight.

http://www.gmc.com/specs/specs_content_files/specs_towing.jsp?brand=sierra&vehicle=3500

Later. JJ http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

JJ, this the time when I grade papers, so I don't hang out here as much...Got to make a living.

New2, as JJ pointed out, there's more to this than what the trailer salesman and even most manufacturer web sites are willing to get into. 1. They don't want to lose the sale because the buyer cannot afford to get an adequate TV at the same time as the trailer. 2. Some TV manufacturers are more conservative than others. 3. Rumors, assumptions, bald-face lies and even PFM (Pure FCensored ing Magic) is often touted as absolute truth.

So I'll try to clear it up (if possible) as best I can, with some reliable facts. First, let's look at what the Trailer Life Towing Guide says about a 2004 (05's guide won't be out until late April):

http://www.trailerlife.com/output.cfm?id=42175


Trailer Life compiles annual factory tow ratings for trucks, sport-utility vehicles, vans and automobiles. While all the specifications are provided by the respective manufacturers -- and every effort has been taken to ensure accuracy -- prospective buyers should verify the information by reading the factory tow guide for their particular vehicle. It's also important to note that some capacities may change without notice during the model year, and some are not available. Again, consult with the latest towing guide for your respective vehicle manufacturer before signing on the dotted line.

<!--- For a copy of our tow ratings prior to model-year 1999, e-mail us (info@trailerlife.com) and specify the year(s) in which you are interested; copies are $3.95 each. Or, call (805) 667-4366 to order. --->4x2 or 4x4 3500 ext. cab, SRW Max 5th-wheel Trailer Wt.15,200 lbs. assuming truck weight does not exceed 6,800 lbs. (22,000 - 15,200 = 6,800)

Sounds simple? Yes and no. Front and rear axles have max weight ratings, and so do the suspension components. The GM web site also provides some information (which matches the Trailer Life directory, of course) at:

http://www.gmc.com/index.jsp?version=flash


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=headerEmptyCell></TD><TD class=Header1></TD><TD class=Header1>Extended Cab</TD><TD class=Header1></TD></TR><TR><TD class=leftCol>Front axle, lbs.</TD><TD></TD><TD>4800</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=greyBG><TD class=leftCol>Front spring capacity, lbs. (with single rear wheels)</TD><TD></TD><TD>4800¹</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD class=leftCol>Front spring capacity, lbs. (with dual rear wheels)</TD><TD></TD><TD>4800</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=greyBG><TD class=leftCol>Rear axle, lbs.</TD><TD></TD><TD>9200</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD class=leftCol>Rear spring capacity, lbs. (with single rear wheels)</TD><TD></TD><TD>6500¹</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=greyBG><TD class=leftCol>Rear spring capacity, lbs. (with dual rear wheels)</TD><TD></TD><TD>8600</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD class=footer colSpan=4>¹Available on Extended Cab 4WD models only.







</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

GM also has a towing guide, available from the same site:


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=headerEmptyCell rowSpan=2>Capacities</TD><TD class=Header1></TD><TD class=Header1 colSpan=2>Extended Cab</TD><TD class=Header1 colSpan=2></TD></TR><TR><TD class=Header2></TD><TD class=Header2>2WD</TD><TD class=Header2>4WD</TD><TD class=Header2></TD><TD class=Header2></TD></TR><TR><TD class=leftCol>Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (http://javascript<b></b>:void(1);) (GVWR), lbs. (with Dual Rear Wheels)</TD><TD></TD><TD>11400</TD><TD>11400</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=greyBG><TD class=leftCol>Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (http://javascript<b></b>:void(1);) (GVWR), lbs. (with Single Rear Wheels)</TD><TD></TD><TD>http://www.gmc.com/specs/images/bt_na.gif</TD><TD>9900</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD class=leftCol>Curb weight (http://javascript<b></b>:void(1);), lbs. (with Dual Rear Wheels)</TD><TD></TD><TD>6021</TD><TD>6334</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=greyBG><TD class=leftCol>Curb weight (http://javascript<b></b>:void(1);), lbs.(with Single Rear Wheels)</TD><TD></TD><TD>http://www.gmc.com/specs/images/bt_na.gif</TD><TD>6239</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD class=leftCol>Payload (http://javascript<b></b>:void(1);), lbs. (with Dual Rear Wheels)</TD><TD></TD><TD>5379</TD><TD>5066</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=greyBG><TD class=leftCol>Payload (http://javascript<b></b>:void(1);), lbs. (with Single Rear Wheels)</TD><TD></TD><TD>http://www.gmc.com/specs/images/bt_na.gif</TD><TD>3661</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

What this all means is that the magic number of 22,000 lbs. is the base by which you can start from. Get your truck on a scale as soon as possible, or get someone with a similarly configured truck to provide you with actual weights (6,800 lbs? no way. 7,800 lbs? possible. For camping?) Ok then, lets say your traveling with a co-driver of the female persuasion. Under those conditions, I'd wager its more in the 8,000-8,500 lbs range because the list of absolute necessities for every situation that can be conceived is far longer than we Males could ever come up with, especially if she has not had any experience "camping" before. Now for a simple application of the formula mentioned above:
22,000 lbs. GCWR
- 8,200 lbs. GVW of truck, with "the list" of necessity
= 13,800 lbs. Max Trailer weight. (:eek:)

Lets compare Radio Flyer's weight formula for a moment:

26,000 lbs. GCWR
- 10,580 lbs. GVW of Truck, (experienced co-driver)
= 15,420 lbs. Max Trailer weight.

You also asked about the hitch, so here goes. The weight of the hitch is directly above the rear axle. Hitches can vary widely as to how much they weigh, so until you know what you're going to have put in, its tough to guess what the rear axle weight will be "before you even hitch up". For instance, Air ride hitches can weigh as much as 275 lbs installed. They are also permanently mounted to the FRAME, through the box floor, and cannot be easily removed to reclaim the bed for other uses. Meanwhile, a simple permanent mount hitch can be as light as 105 lbs (hitch + hardware).

Another issue is the see-saw affects when accellerating or braking, which can make the pin-weight vary considerably. This is why the STATIC weight (not moving) has to be NO LESS than 15% for stability, and not recommended to exceed 25% (again, that is static). While heavy braking, the NHTSC (National Highway Traffic Safety Council) has seen this figure go up as high as 32% , at which point the TV became unstable (forcing rear wheel side skids), so the limits were set to a max of 25%. Another problem with the see-saw affect is the possibility of overloading the rear axle components during heavy braking.

Your solution of shifting overoads to the rear of the trailer may make the forward weight shift affect worse, not better. That is why the Max Trailer Weight and Max Pin Weights are proportional, and used to set the limits on the TV.

To sum up, your at your limits for casual operation. You will exceed these if you do not watch your weights when loading your rig (the GVW of the trailer does not mean you have to have it loaded that heavy, it only means that you do not want to be heavier than that regardless of the TV used to pull it). On the other hand, the GVW of truck and each axles are there to provide you with the base numbers for you to use in the overall formula for calculating the appropriate load configuration for safe operation, and the GCWR represents the design configuration of the truck as a TV, that delivers warrantable performance and durability. The more you operate above that, the faster it will wear out, the greater the chances that components will fail prematurely, and it narrows your safety margin unmeasurably, especially when road/traffic conditions turn to SCensoredT.

JJ, you can blame all these figures on all those physics classes I had to go through at those Loadmaster, crane and Tractor Operator schools ;).

Improperly loaded airplanes are a hazard to the crew.....and all the innocent folks on the ground when gravity takes over! Improperly loaded boats, train cars, baby-buggies, and trucks work much in the same way, only not as drastic.

Experienced drivers know that the cursing at lack of performance going up a hill is no contest to cursing at the lack of performance when going down it!

RF

RF3, as always clear, succinct answers that are understandable at the 3rd grade level which is likely where ol' JJ reads at! ):h You really do have a talent for writing! :ro)

New2, your good getting some good intel here that hopefully will make your trailering experience safer and more enjoyable. Oh yeah, keep your checkbook handy for the mods! :cool: Later. JJ :)

Well, I'm trading the F250 in for the 3500. Guess I'll have to consider trading down from the Champange series. D Censored n those corian countertops. Comparing models on the HitchHiker site, this is one of the heaviest rigs they make. No wonder we liked it. Always seem to go for the stuff that isn't good for you.
Time for another dumb question: where does the term "5th wheel" come from? .

HI NEW 2 THIS WELCOME TO THE SITE!! & I quess it's my turn to help out!! If you send me the S.O.N. (Sales Order Number) & T.P.W. Targeted - called that cause it keeps moving-Production Week, we will add you to the famous "LIST!!" You will be able to track/follow your "BABY" home on your computer- IF YOU WANT TO??!! Please send this info. to me at = howard_m18 at yahoo.com

"Remember, I'm new2this. Never drove a diesel and never have pulled a 5er!"

Just went back and re-read this post and noticed New2's initial statement. New2, I'm glad to see your reconsidering the heavier unit in light of the intel provided. While there are guys like Terrain Twister, Fingers and others that would tow that rig they have considerable experience with units in that weight range. In time you will as well. Your safety, your family and ours are the primary considerations when all is said and done. :ro)

"Time for another dumb question: where does the term "5th wheel" come from?"

That my friend is a good question. They've been around for years, we need one of the really old farts out there or over-the-road truckers to answer this one. ):h Anyone? ;)

OK, JJ's an ol' fart himself so I'll take a stab at it and tell you what little bit "I think I know"(DISCLAIMER;) ).

5th wheel trailers have been in use in the trucking industry for the past 100 years so they are not new by any means. They are newer, so to speak, to the RV industry. Ask an over-the-road trucker what a 5th wheel is and they'll likely show you the receiver on their trucks. Yea, that hitch with the disc in the back of your truck with the slot in it is the actual 5th wheel. The thing you tow behind it is a trailer to them. Interesting? :rolleyes: Here's a link to Kenworth's site regarding 5th wheel maintenance: http://www.kenworth.com/5100_tips_view.asp?filename=3250111272004.asp

The RV industries application of the term is more toward the actual trailer configuration moreso than the hitch. It merely designates the trailer is designed to be pulled by a 5th wheel hitch versus a hitchball. More than likely the "5th wheel" term was used since it allowed truck drivers to turn/pivot the TV under their trailers like a wheel versus ballmounts that follows the rear of the TV.

Where is this sh?t coming from? :o: OK, in a nutshell that's my spin on it! ):h I'm curious to see what the real answer is! JJ's out. :) <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Boy JJ, that was a hell of a try, and you are close.

The term predates trucking by another 100 years! The 5th wheel came from the logging industry, which had to come up with ways to get very long and heavy loads out of the clear-cut for making telegraph poles. The "axles" needed to bear the weights were increased in size, and conventional wagon type configurations made it impossible to steer these 100+ foot long loads in tight turns. No one know who came up with the idea, but to solve this problem, a heavy-duty wagon was used (remember where horse power comes from) with a 5th wagon wheel lying flat on the buck-boards.

Using the central axle as a pivot point in steering, the loggers were able to cut sharp corners, without having any of the vertical weight bearing down on the draft team (heavy horses). The extra wheel they used was one of the spares from the floating axles that were strapped to the long tree trunks which was often refered to as a "5th wheel" (workers disliked them because they just added weigh to the loads they had to lump into the forest). The term was coined in describing the contraption, and it stuck.
(History of Early American Industry, Addison-Wesley, 1954).

This is not to be confused with the often mis-coined phrase of "feeling like a fifth wheel", which actually came later in history, when refering to the emotion of uselessness one gets when having no purpose or reason for being part of a group.

RF

JJ / RF3,
Ask and ye shall learn. Thanks for the answers. I should have done more asking last year. Well, I did but I wasn't asking at the right place - I asked at the dealers.
:badidea:.

OK, so I didn't go back to the freakin horsie days? :o: ):h But for the motorized version of the 5th wheel was I close, yes? :rolleyes:

RF3, normally I would accuse one of pulling this sh_t out of their a$$ but somehow you make it sound sooooooooooo reasonable! Selling used cars on the side? ;) Actually it was interesting reading. Now I/we know something that 99.9% of the other 5ver owners out there don't. Personally I see numerous "beer payoffs" in my future around the ol' campfire. I owe you a cold one for this intel! :ro)

So I take it my rationale for how the RV industry uses the term holds water? So that's 1 out of 3 by my count! A good days work for JJ. :D Later. :)

New2,

Tip of the Day!

Never ask a car dealer anything about trucks that you would not ask a funeral home director. The answer don't matter after your planted.

Site of the day!

http://www.pottymouth.org/humor/shinola.html

RF