My wife and I are fulltime RV'ers. My work travels and living in our RV makes the most sense. We are needing more room for normal life and want to upgrade our travel trailer to a 5th wheel. The new coach we are looking at is an Alpenlite Portofino 36', Dry Wt 13,460lbs. We figure we have about 1500lbs of stuff and that *could* increase to 2000lbs if we arent careful. This could put the 5'er at/or slightly above 15k loaded.

My truck has been modified with a 6" Tuff Country lift, Bilsteins, Ride Rite air bags, 3400lbs rated Ultra Wheels and 35"x12.50"x18" "E" rated 10ply Toyo Open Country M/T tires. I use a Predator Programmer.

This *could* put my GCVWR 500+lbs over what the truck is rated for. I have alot of years experience towing many different sized trailers in alot of different weight classes. I love my truck and my wife loves this new 5th wheel. Safety is a concern but most of that has to do with basic driving common sense and years of towing experience.

I'm trying to do my homework before we purchase as this coach will cost over $80k and theres no way to "test it out" before signing the papers. I want to keep my wife happy but I dont want to tear up my truck either.

I would appreciate any comments or hearing of experiences of others who fit in this category ... "I know there are a few of you already"

Thanks in advance.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/help2.gif

Yes, the truck will pull it. Yes, you will be over on the weight by the time it's loaded. Tell them to guarantee (3rd party Certified weight slip is best) the dry weight and go for it. If there's any way to have them add larger brakes on the trailer, I'd highly recomend it. That's assuming that number includes any options you want. That's also assuming you'll be traveling with the tanks empty for the most part and parking it where you have hookups. They add up fast. You'll also want to know how high the overhang portion of the unit is above the ground when level. You'll want to maintain 6" min. above the truck bed rails. You may be able to flip the axles on the trailer and get this (don't forget the step, will need to add one for the increased heigth). Down side is higher center of gravity. You'll have to pay attention to overhead crossing a little more but as long as your under 13'6" you should be OK. Exhaust is also something to consider (you didn't mention one). More weight means higher EGT's.

Any other questions, ask away!

For what it's worth, My truck is not lifted. Had the axles flipped on the unit I have and have roughly 11-12" of clearance. Not trying to be a downer, Just giving the truth of MY experience since you ask. I have seen units with lifts though pulling 5vr's. You just won't see me doing anything like that if I have to raise the trailer anymore. I wouldn't mind lifting the truck about 3" though.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Rcher,

Once you mod the suspenssion, all factory specs are off. There is no way tell what you can safely tow. With a 6" lift, it will certainly be LESS than the original, MUCH less. Your center of gravity, and drivetrain angles have changed.

Depending on the size of your tires, your bed rails and hitch base plate could be 9-10" above the factory heigth, which is what trailers are designed for, and would require some sort of lift on the trailer as well (flipping the axles, oversize rims and tires?). You've also got to consider the torque transfer through the universals.

The lift has changed all of that, and adding a 15K+ lbs load may be more than they can handle over long distances, especially if you plan on going "off roading" with the trailer attached. Once you add the fiver, you must treat your equipment as though it is NOT an off road vehicle anymore, that is well past its engineering designs.

Then there is a compromise in stability when your center of gravity is raised 8-10 inches (that 6" lift, plus oversized rims and tires). I know, we all see folks doing it, but they also complain a lot about expensive repairs and curse the manufacturer for not telling them. They are also wandering all over the road when towing at highway speeds, requiring more mods, more $$$, which you may not be happy with.

You will also be very surprised with the "factory" weights. At 13,460 dry, you then add LP, maybe some water, 2K lbs of stuff? It needs to go on the scale before you know anything for sure. They most always weigh more than the factory sticker...often much more.

Figure 15-25% of that as tongue/kingpin wt. which has to be LESS than the rear axle, tire, rim weight ratings (at max PSI), AND what Tuff Country's recommended max weight. Then add the weight of people, tools, and other sundries that you will carry in the truck to determine its gross weight and gross axle weights for front and rear. It may not be doable with your liftet 3/4-ton.

Off road suspenssions, drivetrains, wheels, and tires are good off road, but not the optimum for towing, much the same as tow trucks are not optimum for off roading. Two different engineering principals are involved in the designs of these purpose built vehicles. Keep in mind that you started with a good multi-purpose truck....but you changed all of that with the lift!

There is also a change in the driveline ratios. With tires that have much fewer revolutions per mile, your fuel milage will be considerably less than you expect with nearly 13' of trailer flapping in the breeze behind you. You can read about this in the other forums, so I won't get too deep into it here.

"So you gotta ask yourself one question....Do I feel lucky?

JJ and others may want to add to this too, but I don't recommend you use your pride and joy to haul the new toy. Get a second truck, perhaps a used one, that is equiped as a TV for fulltiming, and use your current one to do what you enjoy doing with it for as long as you want to do it!

BTW, Happy Camping, the Alpenlite Portofinos are beautiful and comfortable RVs.

RF

Rcher, you gotta ask yourself: "Is GM offering any rebates on the 3500 dually's?" ):h

TT and RF3, good points, especially the suspension ones.

Rcher states: My truck has been modified with a 6" Tuff Country lift, Bilsteins, Ride Rite air bags, 3400lbs rated Ultra Wheels and 35"x12.50"x18" "E" rated 10ply Toyo Open Country M/T tires. I use a Predator Programmer.

Rcher, normally I suggest folks find the 5ver first then buy the tow vehicle. IMHO you are at the top end of the limit for a 2500 SRW under optimum conditions. Add to that the lift and taller tires and your truck is handicapped for towing in this weight range IMHO. :rolleyes: While towing your travel trailer hasn't presented you with any problems it sounds like you are stepping into a different league with this 5ver. :(

If you are going to put $80k in a 5ver maybe it is best to ensure you have enough truck to safely tow it.:rolleyes: Full timers tend to carry more stuff/weight than us weekend warriors so I would guess-timate you are looking at closer to 16k lbs than 15k lbs when all is said and done. My 5ver started out around the same dry weight and I rarely can get it on the road under 15500-16000 lbs. The 5ver hitch is going to add another 200-250lbs to your truck as well, plus the pin weight. You'll be above GVWR but within rear GAWR.

If I was a full timer pulling this rig I might seriously consider a dually, maybe even a 4500 Kodiak. Especially one of those customized 4500's that were posted on the Medium Duty truck site last week. P-UURRR-TY! ):h $65k but one hell of a nice truck! If its your work truck and a tax write-off, why not! Heck they might even take your truck in trade for the 5ver and allow you to put the majority of the cost of the units into the RV financing: GREAT TAX ADVANTAGE! :rolleyes:

Food for thought! JJ :)

Alpenlite trailers, beautiful, beautiful coaches by the way, tend to run heavy. From your truck’s GVW of 9,800lbs, subtract the weight of the truck itself, the weight of a full tank of fuel, your weight and that of your passengers, the weight of the random crap that inevitably finds its way aboard, the weight of the fifth wheel hitch and anything else you might carry in the bed. This will probably leave you with about 2,000lbs of useable payload left to carry the trailer. Dry your pin weight is probably already above your truck’s payload rating. At the trailer’s gross you will be way over. The truck has the grunt to handle it, but you’re in the gray area should there be an accident and questions of fault and causation revolve around who should have or could have avoided whom. In addition, you have compromised the truck’s towing ability with the lift. You won’t have any safety margin at all. Your skill and experience may allow you to balance all these factors when running solo, but in a crowd, when that blue haired lady in the Buick pulls out in front of you, your skills and the laws of physics are going to get into a tussle. If you really want that trailer, though it is probably better suited for a dually, get rid of the lift. If you want to keep the lift, look for a smaller trailer.

TC

Allow me to address of few of your concerns:

I took a personal tour of the Tuff Country offices and facility before my purchase of the lift kit. The engineers specifically told me that changing the "attitude" of the truck with the Tuff Country system, would not effect the trucks tow ratings at all. It does increase the rear driveline angle but they told me it was less than 2 degrees. This difference would not change the trucks towing capability. This was a major selling point for me as no other lift manufacturer would give this type of guarantee. My truck rarely leaves the road and certainly will never with the new RV behind.

We always tow dry, never have water along and always empty our tanks for travel. This will not be used as our camper, it is our home! Our traveling will be limited actually, I may have to move 2 times per year but they will not be "cross country" moves. Last year, I moved a total of 2500 miles, thats far less than anybody using it as a camper.

The 5'er comes equipped with 12"x3 1/4" brakes. Speaking with an engineer, this would translate into over 30,000lbs of stopping force according to the calculations he ran for me. I work in construction and asked my project mechanical engineer to calculate this for me. This should certainly help in stopping this rig. The 5th wheel is also adjustable for height by moving the bolts in the spring shackles. This is a common adjustment for 4x4 pickups. If I absolutely had to flip the axles to accomodate the lift in the truck, thats where I would draw the line. I dont need to elevate the center of gravity on the coach any more than necessary. I dont think this is the case.

Honestly though, since I have installed the lift in the truck, I have experienced nothing but good effects. It handles better than factory, drives smoother down the road and has increased my turning radius. The wider tires should give the rear end better stability than with the stock tires, there's more rubber on the road and less sidewall height with the 18" tire/wheel combination. I considered all of this as I modified the truck that *someday* I may consider towing a 5th wheel. At this point, I dont feel that the lift has created a disability for me but has actually added in the performance of the vehicle. The lift is non-reversible, frames and members had to be cut to install some of the undercarriage. Unfortunately, its too late to return to stock.

Trade in your truck for a dually and you won't have to worry about pulling the trailer. Then, lift a jeep wrangler and pull it behind your 5er. That is not a combo I would want to pull but the jeep should do better offroad and the truck will pull the trailer much better.

Rcher,

We were addressing the concerns in your original post as written, what you are addressing is not our concerns, but what our past experiences have shown. But that is fine too. You asked what you CAN do, now we know what you WANT to do.

But bare in mind a few points that have come up in this last post:

1. By making the "common adjustment for 4x4 pickups", moving the factory spring shacke bolt to its lower position (available on most Fivers nowdays), will give you the clearance from bedrails/tailgate to bottom of trailer at kingpin, and allow the trailer to ride level while towing on a stock 4x4 truck.
I suggest you take a tape measure and measure the heigth of the truck's rails at the tail light then measure the heigth to the bottom of the fiver overhang, and calculate the difference. I think you will find that you will need more than a simple shackle placement to get at what you need, and by "flipping" the axles might just give you what you need...maybe?

2. Modifications such as "frames and members had to be cut to install some of the undercarriage" does not sit well with 15K+ lbs towing. Cutting or welded on any vehicle's frames compromises its tortional strengths (resistance to twisting, bending or breaking), and most certainly voids the warrantee.

The stressing forces involved in pulling, steering and stopping a heavy fiver must eventually be transferred to the wheels through a series of components that were engineered into the original designs the truck. Changes, even small ones, can have large consequences, therefore there should be DOT testing and certification done by the aftermarket manufacturer available, with real facts and figures to look at, to determine the actual weight limitations. What I would be asking Tuff Country system is for their DOT certification and data. It is better to err standing on two feet, than to be right sitting in a wheelchair.

3. With SRW light trucks, you may have to add water to the trailer to reduce kingpin weight. Fivers are nototious for overloading 3/4-ton pick-up truck rear axles, tire, or wheel ratings.

4. The 2- degree angle difference in the driveline you speak of should be correctable as part of the lift kit. Considering that the 4x4 driveline is designed with 2 degrees of angle change from the truck at rest (unloaded) to its max and min extensions of the suspenssion (on a stock truck). Throw a couple thousand pounds in the bed, then start tugging in an uphill slope and there will be suspenssion compression and some leaf spring twist. By having an additional 2 degrees of angle to that combination and it can make a big difference. The same is true when engine braking, only in the other direction.

Lets just say that I've seen more broken U-Joints, auto-trans boiling over, seized wheel bearings, baked brakes, ground up third members, bent shocks, and twisted frames in my years of towing and camping that I can count. In every instance, the driver was sure that he was right, and that one corporation or another were going to have to pay for it (of those that could speak).

We all have different levels of comforts, so I'll just leave it there and wish you and yours the best of luck.

:exactly: As always outstanding post RF3! :ro)

Rcher, obviously we're not telling you what anyone likes to hear! Looks like you have some decisions to make! When you bought your truck this 5ver was not in your sights, trying to make it "fit the bill" now is proving to be a surmountable tasks. Those of us that tow heavy are only providing you with our recommendations, ultimately you have to make a decision and live with it.

2500 miles, 1600 miles, 100 miles, doesn't really matter if the wrong set of circumstances or conditions present themselves at any point in your travels. While it may be a hard pill to swallow, IMHO yours and our safety come first! :)

The suspension guys job is to sell their products, staying within your vehicles safety limitations and towing capability is your job. ;) Even without their system you are going to be well above the GVWR and GCWR with this rig. :o:

You may want to look for a lighter unit than the Alpenlite model if you intend to stick with your current TV. If this one "is the one" you might want to see if there are any other TV's available at the right numbers. I originally started out to buy a 3500 SRW to tow a 5ver, but I decided to find the 5ver first then buy the truck to pull it. Hence my bubble butt dually, which Mama JJ and I love by the way. Even with a dually I'm right at GCWR/GVWR most of the time towing a 5ver similar to the Alpenlite's specs. :confused:

You've obtained plenty of intel on this. Time to search your gut and proceed safely. JJ's out! :)

Ok guys, I completely understand your comments and concerns. I know how the numbers stack up, I also know that there are others who "push the envelope" as far as towing goes and maybe I just needed to have it confirmed. That was the intension of my post. We do have other 5th wheels we like and that are closer to the limitations of the truck, I have spoken with my wife and have explained that even though she is in love with that certain 5'er, we have to be safety concious for us and others on the road. I'm sure as long as I can keep under the GCVWR of 22,000lbs and the GAWR RR below the rated 6080lbs with a pin weight around that 2500lbs or less (loaded), we should be fine with any other 5'er. I am confident that my truck will be able to handle those spec's. I will try to get Tuff Country to give me DOT reports for my model year so that I have a comfort zone.

I appreciate your input and as always, respect your intelligence.

I'm certain I'm the only guy that has posted that comes by their recommendations at the expense of several tow vehicles and "mucho" funds! :rolleyes: If only I had access to a site like this to be able to air my questions and receive fair, objective, qualified answers. No sales bullsh_t, no pressure, like Joe Friday would say "Just the facts Maam!" :D

I looked at the Alpenlite units on the net, nice units! They have a loyal following much like the Sunnybrook units do. Good luck! JJ :)

Sorry guys, this whole thing has me in a head spin and I need to "re-open" this topic. Here are the facts ...

My Truck ratings:

GVWR = 9200
GAWR RR = 6084
GAWR FR = 4670
GCVWR = 22,000

These ratings are almost the same as a 2003 SRW 3500 CC LB P/U. We both have the same GCVWR's.

My owners manual claims I can tow:

Max trailer wt = 14,700
Max hitch wt = 3,000 (20% of trailer wt)

Since my truck weighs about 7500lbs, this would put my GCVWR over by 200lbs and the GAWR RR over by 1300lbs. Somewhere here, there is a grave error by Chevrolet. No matter what I look at for 5th wheels, I will exceed one or more of the ratings or I would only be able to pull an 8500lb trailer to keep all the weights within capacity.:eek: It appears that everyone who is pulling a 5'er has exceeded one of the weight ratings, you cant convince me otherwise. No matter if my truck is lifted or not, this is almost impossible to acheive with a stock truck too!

Somewhere here, concessions have been made by either the manufacturer or vehicle owners. I am currently pulling a 10k travel trailer that is harder to handle, far worse in emergency manuvering and harder on my suspension (IMHO) than a 5th wheel, however, I am within the weight limits of my truck!

I look at the sigs of some of you posters and see that you are also in violation of the weight ratings of your tow vehicles too! I have searched all over the internet for a resonable explanation and cannot find one. The more I look, the more violators of towing weights I find. This whole issue doesnt even justify the purchase of a different tow vehicle unless I go to a Kodiak 4500. A 3500 doesnt hardly gain me anything and these rigs I am looking at will be overweight for that truck as well. I see "oodles" of 3500's towing larger 5er's than what I'm looking at and we almost have the same weight capacties. I'm confused!

I dont mean to "rag" on anyone here, I'm just trying to make sense of this issue.

i have a 36 foot and pull a atv trailer behind it for a total load including 2500hd of about 26500. i know this exceeds gm numbers but the truck handles it great. i feel competely safe doing 75mph. i dont beleive in the numbers they produce. it has more to do with driver experience and the way the load is placed on the truck. we own a landscaping company and exceed those numbers every day pulling around tractors.

Rcher, the figures can be confusing. The axle manufacturers rate their axles for certain weights, but the manufacturers takes everything (brakes/tranny/suspension/frame, etc.) into consideration when they rate their trucks. Your gaining intel from this post that should allow you to make your own determination on just how hard you can/should push your truck. Some guys pull over GCWR and GVWR, hopefully you don't see many, if any, towing over GAWR on a regular basis.

I believe most of us that tow heavy don't lose any sleep when we exceed the GCWR/GVWR a bit, but not a lot. A dually puts 1500lbs more capacity to the rear end and stabilizes the rear end much better. Seems like most that tow heavy like the dually's. Your right, Ford F350's have been pulling 5ver's for years and only rated at 12000lbs, the newer versions tow heavier. :rolleyes: One reason I went with the Chevy. ;)

Try looking on sites like RV.net, lots of good discussion on 5ver towing. Keep your chin up, you are going through the same agony I went through when I was buying my 5ver. It will pay off in the end. If we cross paths out there somewhere a cold one is on me. JJ :)

If we cross paths out there somewhere a cold one is on me. JJ :)And the following "twelver" is on me. ;)

JJ ... I figure as long as I can stay within the limits of the GAWR's with the pin weight and only slightly exceed the GCVWR or GVWR, I should be fine. I have an 860# cushion over the GAWR RR with my tires and wheels so that should help with "dynamic" weight loads. I'm confident that my truck will do fine .. "Its a Chevy" after all.

My wife and I have our sights set on a lighter weight 5th wheel at the moment. The Aplenlite, altho very nice, is too much for the truck, ... that I will concede. I can still get into a 36' coach and be closer to the limits of the truck.

Thanks for all of your helpful advice in this confusing situation. BTW ... I am a member of RV.net already but that is not the place to start asking questions about being overweight at all, talk about critisism. There are many members of that forum who are obviously overweight but live a 2nd standard, (its ok for them but not anyone else) thats why I posted in here.

Thanks again ...

Rcher

I think your confusing some things here, I have a d/a 2500hd 2003, my like your ratings are as follows:

GVWR: 9200 lbs (note this is the Trucks rating alone).
GCVWR: 22000 lbs (not this is the truck and anything it is towing combined).
5th Wheel Tow rating: 12500 lbs.
Max Toung weight: 3000 lbs (note this is BALL towing like a Travel trailer, not 5er towing, basicly we are going to ignore it).
RAWR: 6064 lbs (note this is actualy the rating of the factoty tires 3032lbs x2, the weak point, the actual axle rating is much higher, something like12k+ lbs as rated by the axle maker, I don't know the actual amount, this dose not count breaks or wheel str tho).


I tow a 28' 5er 7800 lbs dry GVWR of 11500, runs abought 10,000 lbs running down the road with water, apx 1500 lbs toung weight.

Break down:

Truck Loaded for the road: 7800 lbs
Fifth Wheel Trailer weight in truck bed: 1500 lbs
Total: 9300 lbs (over truck GVWR by 100 lbs)

Trailer: Loaded for the road: 10000 lbs
Trailer axle weight: 8500 lbs (note 1500 lbs are in the pick up)

GCVWR: 17800 lbs.

Now as my truck and trailer combo shows I'm well under GCVWR and under the GVWR of the trailer and under the tow rating of the Truck, but- I am over on my GVWR of my 2500hd truck.

So, am I going to go buy a one ton? No, what I did do is upgraded the tires to better E rated tires, mine have a 3400 lb rating (vs 3032 of the factory crap tires) and I added Air-bags to the rear axles.

Want to know the only 4 diffrences between a 3500HD srw and a 2500HD are?

Tires, rear springs, and two side decals. Thats fact, do I clame to be under weight? no, am I over weight? yes, but if the wife and I losse some lbs around the middle we may squezze in :D

Hope that helps explane things better, and yes a lot of guys running 2500hd's and even 3500hd srw trucks are over weight in at least one area, typicly in the GVWR of the truck, witch I think is 99% the crapy tires chev puts on them.

Good luck with what ever you deside to do.

"Want to know the only 4 diffrences between a 3500HD srw and a 2500HD are?"

Josh, you forgot about $1100-$1500 mo' money to! ):h Good discussion guys! Rcher, please let us know what you end up with. JJ :)

Want to know the only 4 diffrences between a 3500HD srw and a 2500HD are?

Tires, rear springs, and two side decals. Thats fact...Well to be fair, the rims on the 3500srw are different than the 2500HD too.

Here's another opinion, from another 2500HD owner who tows a 5er. My truck is 2wd, so it weighs a bit less than the 4x4's. I've never had it weighed, but based on what others with similar trucks/options have posted, I'm guessing I'm right close to 7K loaded for a trip (before hooking up). That leaves me with about 2200 pounds payload capacity to handle pin weight. My 5er weighs 10K dry (12.2K GVWR), with a pin weight of 1860. Loaded for travel, the 5er is about 11K, with a little over 2K pin weight. So, it is possible for a 2500HD owner to stay within the factory ratings and still tow a decent sized coach (ours is 32'9" long, 12'9" at the highest point, has a bedroom slide and a living room superslide). However, I'm basically right at the factory limits and if I were getting into a coach much bigger than what we've got right now, I'd be considering a dually. That being said, the rear doesn't sit down much when I hook up the 5er. Here's a link to a pic of what our team looks like hooked up...

http://webpages.charter.net/ctmaneke/Team2.jpg

Well to be fair, the rims on the 3500srw are different than the 2500HD too.
Are the optional hi-polish one diffrent? Never actualy looked at the stock rims...

Your right abought 4-digger, what's the system weigh 600+ lbs? Lot's of stuff under the truck for it thats for sure.

Nice looking rig!

Here is ours being guarded by Max the super dog:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Joshpictures/Picture-005.jpg

Are the optional hi-polish one diffrent? Never actualy looked at the stock rims...

Your right abought 4-digger, what's the system weigh 600+ lbs? Lot's of stuff under the truck for it thats for sure.

Nice looking rig!Yours looks good too.

I thought the 4wd on the GM trucks was only about 300 pounds...not sure about that figure though, just a number I thought I read somewhere.

The 3500srw only has metal rims, the polished aluminum aren't available with that configuration. I believe that the PSI rating of the polished aluminum rims isn't quite as high as those that come with the 3500srw.

The reason that I have my Kodiak is because there is NO pickup rated to pull a good sized fifth wheel rv. All but one, in this park of 120 sites, is towed by vehicles that are seriously overloaded... The one 5er correctly set up, is towed by an International 4700 toter truck. It is my intention to purchase a 5th wheel rig sometime in the future, trading in the Airstream and going full time on the road. I have towed with an inadequate truck before, and because of the cost to that truck, will not do so again. Things break, wear out faster, and create unnecessary stress, using a truck not designed to tow great weights all day long. The tow rating of pickup trucks is not a guarantee that the truck can tow that, all day, everyday.

Mylash

Kodiak 4500's are sweet! Especially those customized ones that run $65k. If I had another $25k to play with I would have one! JJ :)

Night and day JJ.
The MDT's stout components dwarf everything on the LT's, brakes, suspenssion, frame, etc. I will say with confidence, after wearing out 3 LTs that this one will outlast them all (all three put together), and then some. That is where we will SAVE those $25K X 2 and more. Considering that ours ($50K & change with the bed and hitches) was not that much more than the comparably equiped 3500s (almost $48K) that we looked at. Then we found out that the insurance dropped by $130.00 a year (to our surprise). Service intervals are the same, and slightly less because we take it to a commercial dealer (not a car stealer).

Not that I'm trying to talk you into doing something you can't afford (this time). Just weighing in on a course of action that you may want to look into when you wear your current LT out.

RF

RF3, Mama JJ says I can't talk to you anymore! ):h She knows that look in my eyes too well! :o: JJ :)

RF3, Mama JJ says I can't talk to you anymore! ):h She knows that look in my eyes too well! :o: JJ :)
Start nibbling on her earlobe for no reasons, and don't tell her why..... It tends to reduce the tension on the reins a little, when you're looking at the GM web site.

Now don't you tell Moma JJ that I said that...cause its sure to get back to my co-driver somehow and I'll likely have to start biting on a bit with that briddle.

RF

Did that to get the 5ver. :o: I'm afraid ol' JJ is running out of tricks. Oh hell there's always jewelry! ):h She didn't buy off on the 4" MBRP cool duals for Mothers Day. I'm in trouble!

Now where is that MDT thread? :D Later. JJ :)