As i have posted before, my parents are looking to buy an HD to replace our 99 suburban 1/2 ton. It will be my moms daily driver, but also used to haul 2-3 dirt bikes, tow our 21 ft wakeboard boat, sometimes a small flat trailer. We tow the boat to our local lake for day trips, approx 50 miles away, takes about an hour. Its a slight uphill, only one section where the suburban really struggles for a short hundred or two hundred yards. The longer trips we go 2.5+ hours away, sometimes up steeper grades but most of it is fairly flat. I am partial to the duramax because i think the MPG potential + excess power over the 6.0 is very favorable, but might not be practical considering the cost over a 6.0. This is the biggest concern for my parents, which is the better investment long run. We wouldnt be looking to sell soon either, probably keep it a decently long time. In ya'lls opinions, is the duramax for us or will the 6.0 be a better choice?

I was faced with the same dilemma. I have a 1989 Suburban 1/2 ton 4x4 pushing 200,000 miles and will soon need a replacement. As you can see, I put lots of miles on my vehicles. I plan on keeping what I buy for a while and fuel mileage was also important to me. I started looking towards the end of 2003 for a diesel 'something'. I wanted to stay with the Suburban (Yukon XL) line, but they didn't come with a diesel engine. I looked at the Ford Excursion, but the switch to the 6.0 diesels showed lots of problems at first for Ford. The $52k and up window sticker didn't help in my decision making either. After reading input of people of this site and other sites like this, I decided on the crew cab Duramax 2500 HD series for my Suburban replacement. It looks like the extra money you pay for the diesel engine will be recovered at about 100,000 miles with the fuel savings (that was figured in Feb 2004 when diesel fuel was $1.74 a gallon and gas was cheaper). I now tow a car trailer with my race car (5400# trailer and car combined) every other weekend (summertime) and sometimes load it up with 4 ATVs (4100# combined). I later wish to purchase a 32' travel trailer. This would be too much for the 1/2 ton Suburban to haul. I don't know if this helps in your decision-making, but in my case, it was a no-brainer. I ordered my 2005 March 3rd and can't wait until it comes in! I already have the Juice/Attitude waiting to go on it. All I need is the Truck!):h

Gas motors if youre towing is shooting yourself in the foot. A gas motor unloaded will get about 16 highway, my dad has a GMC2500 with the 6.0L. If you hook a trailer to it, expect to see about 9mpg on the highway. The Duramaxs are getting 20-23 on the highway unloaded and not modified much. You should get about 16 loaded on the highway with a Duramax. My friend has a landscaping business and is in the process of phasing out all gas motors, they just use too much fuel when they are loaded and in the landscaping business they are always loaded. My Duramax with the Bully Dog programmer and 4" Exhaust shows about 16 around town and 22-23mpg on the highway.

If you dont see anything larger to tow in the future the 6.0 will work great for waht you want. The additional cost for the max/allison will not be gained in the 100,000 miles quoted in the other post now t5hat deisel fuel is the cost of premium gas and has been since July with no relief in site.


I have two max/allsions and they are great but I put on a lot of miles towingheavy (over 11,000lbs). I also owned a 2001 crewhd with the 6.0 it is a good truck for the money. Just keep in mind at best they will get 13 MPG on the HWY unloaded. (Most dmaxes as you will see on this site get 14.5 city and 18 hwy with 12 to 14 towing) The 8100 with 3.73 gear comes with the allison for around $1,700 more may be an option as well. It will get about the same mileage as the 6.0, but can pull the heavy like the dmax if needed.

Hope this helps.

Good Luck:ro)

Not with diesel price where it is.

With light tows or no tows the gasser is your best bet from a pure dollar and sense standpoint. If cost is not a major factor and you really want a diesel in your life, for cryin' out loud, get it. It too bad GM dumped the 5.7 gasser. It pulled well and would get 18 mpg at 75 mph hands down. The big block 8.1 will get just about the same mpg as the 6.0 but has great pulling power, almost equal to the DMAX.

Unless your going to tow heavier or more often or put a bunch of miles on it from a cost standpoint I think you would be better with a gasser. Although a diesel will cost more up front you do get more $$$ at trade in time. a 6.0 wont have any problems with the loads you are talking about though. But if you are going to make many of them 2.5hour plus road trips or run to the lake 50 miles every weekend then a diesel may be more benificial.

I have a 03 and its a bit different of a motor but my truck that weighs close to 7k gets an average of 15-16 MPG mixed and close to 20 just interstate. I travel right at 70 on the highway. I would think hoping for mych over 20 unloaded is being pretty optomistic. Loaded is were a diesel starts to leave a gasser behind in terms of milage. A 6.0 will pull plenty heavy andn an 8.1 will pull any load that has any business behind a 1 ton truck. JMO

Depends how often you will tow.

the towing would hopefully be anywhere from 1-4 times per week, about 50 miles each way. We have one longer trip planned, but hopefully might add 1-2 more.

NorCal - I have the 6.0 gasser - I get 10.4 winter blend and around 11.5 summer blend city driving (pittsburgh) on the highway empty I get almost 15 consistently. I have a 30' TT weighing in at about 8000 lbs. mileage goes down to 6.4 no matter where Im at or time of year. It sucks. :mad: It cost me $250 bucks to go to Atlanta last week. Im currently debating, as you are, the benifits of the dmax. I cant really justify buying it from a fuel savings standpoint, but Im still going for it.

BTW how can diesel be more expensive than gasoline when diesel is a by-product of making gas?

Taxes!!!

Will i bought mine strictly for gas mileage, and longevity. I tow almost every other weekend, i occasionally have some heavy bed loads. I had the 6.0l and it did everything i needed but gas mileage killed me. The HD 6.0l will have a 4.10 gear. 14 mpg unloaded and 10-11 towing the boat was the best i could get.

I dunno bout 20 -23 unloaded on my dmax, i have only come close to that on my one trip were i burned a whole tank while unloaded. But 13-14.5 towing , even had 15.5 towing to Louisana one trip. The dmax has saved me some gas money. On average it has more than made up the diff in my payment per month.

When the weather gets nice we can hook that boat up to my truck and head to berryessa and you can drive.....by the time we get there, youll have made your decision!!!

You need to look at the pay back on the huge investment and take into consideration the maint. cost of the diesel and the fuel cost. It takes a good while to recoop the money invested considering you are well within the limits of the 6.0. You may see a pay back when the truck is ready to trade in

The gasser will suit your needs, but the diesel is a better tow engine stock for stock. You are essentially getting the "Cadillac" of tow vehicles when you get the turbo diesel.

One other thing that should be mentioned. Neither 6.0 nor the 8.1 will even come to close to giving the pulling power of a Dmax with a $350 "tuner" installed, which will give slightly better than stock mileage.

Imagine towing uphill at high altitude through the mountains at 75mph without the engine breaking a sweat. And the range of the diesel means even when towing heavy, you can go over 300mi between stops when going on long trips.

With light tows or no tows the gasser is your best bet from a pure dollar and sense standpoint. If cost is not a major factor and you really want a diesel in your life, for cryin' out loud, get it. It too bad GM dumped the 5.7 gasser. It pulled well and would get 18 mpg at 75 mph hands down. The big block 8.1 will get just about the same mpg as the 6.0 but has great pulling power, almost equal to the DMAX.What 5.7 engine did you have, my old 93 chevy z71 with a 5.7 got only 8mpg towing a 7000 pound 5er and 11 non towing

I think if you calculate it out on a cost per year basis, i.e. purchase price minus estimated value at the end of a given term, say 5 years, plus any fuel savings, divided by the term (5yrs) you will find that both vehicles will end up being very close. Then it comes down to 1. which truck do we like better and suits our needs the best, and 2. can we afford the initial additional purchase/payments of the diesel. I say initial because the purchase/payment will virtually balance out when you sell or trade.

MOST of us don't NEED a Diesel. They are cool, last forever, can be modified up the wazoo since they are SUPER-detuned from the factory, they have resale, and if you put a lot of miles on it, the miles don't kill the resale value. They are expensive to buy and pretty much bullet proof if you do your maintenance. Buy a Diesel.

What 5.7 engine did you have, my old 93 chevy z71 with a 5.7 got only 8mpg towing a 7000 pound 5er and 11 non towing
The Vortec 5.7s get decent mileage. The vortecs came out on the V-8s in 96. Your 93 would have been the older throttle body fuel injection. I have a 98 Z71 with the 5.7 that I run as a winter truck. I will get around 15 mpg with mixed driving and about 20 mpg all highway at around 70 mph. I don't use that truck for towing so I do't have any mileage numbers for that.

Well, my dad almost bought a 2005 6.0 CCSB 4x4 yesterday, one of his best friends goes to the auctions quite often and saw the truck there, 13k on the clock or something like that. It was going to go for about $24-25k but someone got it up to $27k right at the end so we passed. I am going to call a local dealer today and hopefully set up an appointment to see a certain loaded carbon metallic D/A they have :cool:. At this point, to my dad it will be whatever truck (D/A or 6.0) comes along first for the right price.

This is a quick spreadsheet to tell you how many miles it will take to make up a $7000 difference in engines. Just change the file extension from .txt to .xls . Here's what it looks like with today's prices in South TX. Hope it helps.

Roz

If it were I, the 1500 with the 5.3 z71 would be my choice..they go like a bat and good mileage to boot..the 6.0 mileage sucks..bc

This is a quick spreadsheet to tell you how many miles it will take to make up a $7000 difference in engines. Just change the file extension from .txt to .xls . Here's what it looks like with today's prices in South TX. Hope it helps.

Roz
Nice analysis, but the diesel will increase the resale value. You don't have to pay all $7000 down to 0. Look back at some older resale value tools and see how much extra the diesel adds to the resale. Then redo the numbers for the difference.

From KBB.com, a 2001 2500HD w/ 100,000 miles in excellent condition (with the options at the default) has a PP value of 11,980. The exact same vehicle (same zip code, same mileage, same condition, same options) has a PP valve of 18,030. The difference is about 6,000.

So, it only costs $1000 to own. That brings your breakeven point down to about 36,000 miles.

Not a good idea at all to give a woman a $40k diesel truck, and let her drive it daily.

These trucks get less than stellar city mileage, and in the cold, they never warm up.

I dont know what the temps are like where you live, but short trips in the cold is not good for anything.

Face it folks, unless you are using the truck for heavy towing, the added primary cost, maintenance and possiblity of an "out of warranty engine repair" of a diesel engine is not worth it. (Ie the gal puts gas in the diesel tank)

Get your mom a 6L or 8.1L gasser in a 3/4 ton Sub, and enjoy the relatively cheaper gas pricing.

Not a good idea at all to give a woman a $40k diesel truck, and let her drive it daily.

These trucks get less than stellar city mileage, and in the cold, they never warm up.

I dont know what the temps are like where you live, but short trips in the cold is not good for anything.

Face it folks, unless you are using the truck for heavy towing, the added primary cost, maintenance and possiblity of an "out of warranty engine repair" of a diesel engine is not worth it. (Ie the gal puts gas in the diesel tank)

Get your mom a 6L or 8.1L gasser in a 3/4 ton Sub, and enjoy the relatively cheaper gas pricing.
haha, well no worries about my mom. Reason we are getting rid of the burb is we dont need the seating anymore, but do need the bed. She's driven pretty much nothing but suburbans and trucks as long as ive been alive, so she does alright haha. Only gets down to 50 or so here on average, winter like 55-60 and summer 80-85 or so.

mannytranny, I have to disagree with you. I do zero towing and I cannot imagine having my truck without the diesel. I know the gas cost a little more, but i use less than the 8.1 I was considering. If the repair bills in the future are a little steep, it's the price i pay for the power. I don't need this truck with this engine, I just wanted it. It's my hot rod. To me the cost was/is very much worth what I am getting performance wise. I see your point that if a smaller gasser will do what you need it to do and that doesn't bother you, the diesel is pointless, but on the other hand why not buy the best thing available?

It sounds almost like you want a diesel to have a diesel. That's why I got mine and I don't use it for what it was built for but you know what? I love my truck and wouldn't trade it for anything else! Point is you only live once, if you can afford it and you want it bad, get it and don't look back.

mannytranny, I have to disagree with you. I do zero towing and I cannot imagine having my truck without the diesel. I know the gas cost a little more, but i use less than the 8.1 I was considering. If the repair bills in the future are a little steep, it's the price i pay for the power. I don't need this truck with this engine, I just wanted it. It's my hot rod. To me the cost was/is very much worth what I am getting performance wise. I see your point that if a smaller gasser will do what you need it to do and that doesn't bother you, the diesel is pointless, but on the other hand why not buy the best thing available?
I cannot begin to debate wants vs needs (+ emotions in your case) economics with anyone. All I can do is give you the clear #'s as to each. I do not believe that a diesels ~17 mpg to a gassers ~12 mpg is worth the 30+ cents per gallon difference (in my area). If you drive that diesel in town all day, youll see MPG #'s even closer to that of a gasser. Not to mention that a diesel is not well suited for in town duties.

Face it folks, they are all money pits unless they are used in a busines setting.

I love it! More heads ARE better than one. (or most of one in my case). Okay, I doctored the spredsheet to allow an easy change of whatever your cost of ownership is. I understand the point of higher resale value, I really do. In fact, a 2001 duramax is still 6980 more than the 6.0 down here.

BUT, you've also got to consider what the extra seven thousand borrowed costs you. You flat out lose money in financing it, not to mention what interest you would make investing with it wisely, or paying off all the credit cards you used to make your truck so sparkley and smokeyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif.

Still, if you want to factor that in on your own, just drop of the results in the cost of ownership cell and you're off to the races.

Yeah, opportunity costs of capital would be the next refinement. BTW, there was a bug in your towing costs per mile...check the cell references.

I added the ownership cost as a depreciation term. Then I added capital costs as a second cost of ownership per year.

I entered my actual mileage for my dmax (17/20), and changed the 6.0 mileage to the GM EPA city and highway mileage for the 1500HD with the 6.0 (9/12). Actually, the mileage for the 2500HD with a 6.0 gasser should be worse.

We're assuming maintenance costs are the same.

Then you get a number of miles per year for breakeven. It's well below the amount of driving I do. Nice thing is, as both fuels get more expensive (at the same spread), the diesel looks even better. Every mile over the breakeven is pure profit.

Or, change the cost of capital cell until the breakeven mileage reflects your amount of driving. Then that cost of capital value is your return-on-investment for the diesel.

right, thanks guys. Personally, I do think that I myself want the diesel just to have the diesel. The raw power and expandability are real appealing to me. My mom doesnt care either way, and my dad is basically down to whatever comes along for the right deal first. We'll pay cash though, no need for financing/losing money on the $7000 split of the two. fuel costs around here are getting absurd, so i think the diesel becomes even more appealing as the costs go up

Shoot, 20000 miles difference. Not much difference at all. According to your figures, guys that use their trucks for hauling, like BROKER, should be getting paid by GM. ):h

GM lauds the fact that their trucks hold their value, but there's so darn many used ones that their real resale value isn't all that great. The diesel's, on the other hand, hold their resale value better, for a lot longer.

Buy the diesel and fuggetaboudit. You won't regret it.

Tom

One guy mentioned getting the 5.3 1500 z71, that would be a bad choice. Those things dont pull worth a flip. They were not designed to pull. My buddy has the z71 but wishes he had the duramax. I get better mileage loaded and unloaded, the truck will outrun the z71 loaded or unloaded. Plus the diesel just "feels" better.

Yeah, opportunity costs of capital would be the next refinement. BTW, there was a bug in your towing costs per mile...check the cell references.

Thanks man, nice additions. I wish they would start a thread for this stuff so I could just maintain one updated version and link to it. I guess the cell refs were a byproduct of...beer!

And what Scott said about the Z-71... As the current purveyor of a '95 z-71, and 3 transmission rebuilds, the 4l60E sucks ass. I'm not sure what's in the new ones, but I'd NEVER tow with anything automatic that couldn't monitor slip and back down the power. Shoot, with the cost of a rebuild going around $2200 around here, I almost paid for the Dmax as it is. I even had the second tranny custom built with a corvet servo, better valves, and a shift kit. Like peeing up a rope, I guess.

Agreed on the Z-71 towing issue. I moved up from a 2000 Z71.

Hi,

The last time I checked the Z71 was only an offroad package, skid plates, shocks and tires. You still have to order a towing package if you intend to trailer with them? Am I wrong here?

Take care

Will

Hi,

The last time I checked the Z71 was only an offroad package, skid plates, shocks and tires. You still have to order a towing package if you intend to trailer with them? Am I wrong here?

Take care

Will
The Z-71 package is exactly that. 2 skid plates, billstein shocks, 265's maybe, and I think the only way to get digital dual climate control in a 1500 but I am not sure. Anywho, the package is only available on the 1500 and therefore in my silly head Z-71=1500 Maybe it is left over from when the best trucks were Silverado’s, and the trim went downhill from there. A Z-71 was a Silverado with the off-road package; hence, the most truck one could get in a half-ton. At least where I grew up. Of course, they still reenact gunfights there too, so what can I say.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

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The Z-71 package is exactly that. 2 skid plates, billstein shocks, 265's maybe, and I think the only way to get digital dual climate control in a 1500 but I am not sure. Anywho, the package is only available on the 1500 and therefore in my silly head Z-71=1500 Maybe it is left over from when the best trucks were Silverado?s, and the trim went downhill from there. A Z-71 was a Silverado with the off-road package; hence, the most truck one could get in a half-ton. At least where I grew up. Of course, they still reenact gunfights there too, so what can I say.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

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Sadly the Z71 doesn't even come with Bilsteins any longer. My buddy got a 2004 Z71 about 3 months before I got my truck and he just replaced his scotk shocks with bilsteins.

My family needed a NEW truck (not pre-owned, didn't want anyone else's problems). I had a '93 Dodge diesel that we outgrew (had two kids). Shopped around, looked at all makes and models, and looked at gas vs diesel, 2wd vs 4x4, etc. It all came down to $$. I found a '04 Chev CCLB 4x4 6L gas, 5 spd for $24k BRAND SPANKIN' NEW. Closest I could into diesel was $32k for a 2wd Dodge (which had the smaller crew cab and fewer options). So I went with the Chev. Too cheap to pass up. With the exception of pulling the hills like my old diesel, I downshift to 4th, and hammer on at 60-65mph at 3k rpm. Different, but it works okay. I'm not stopping traffic and using the hazard lights by any means. Saved a bunch of $ that I can invest for my kids college fund, or whatever.
Also, note that in the Pac NW, diesel is about $2.59/gal and 87 octane gas is $2.06. I'm sure this will change over time, but for now, its waaaayyy cheaper to own the gasser.

Having said all this, I can't wait until I wear this thing out so I can get a diesel again.

I don't know where you got your truck, but $7,000 for the diesel?.....mine wound up at $2,800 after all was said and done. You gotta be careful in applying the heavy duty power package to the diesel....there's a lot more in that package than the diesel, including the Allison. And a lot of that package you would want on a tow vehicle irrespective of the power plant. Don't forget to deduct the rebates to the package as well. (such as might be in effect at any given time)

You gotta be careful about making broad statements re: the price of diesel too. Yes, it's criminal what they're charging for it now-a-days, but still if your talking about tow vehicles, your probably talking about either the 6 or 8 liter gas or the diesel, depending on just what your gonna tow. Serious towing is gonna limit that to either the 8.1 gas or the Dmax. These are both gonna use (at current pricing) about the same cost/gal of fuel. The 8.1 is gonna use premium and the diesel is gonna use our now inflated diesel fuel.....roughly the same price/gal.....yeah, this is gonna vary by area, marketing and tax rates in the various states, but all-in-all, lets just call it even. The 8.1 is gonna get you 10-12 MPG empty and the diesel is gonna get you 17-19. And that is the difference and it doesn't make a bit of difference what the price of fuel is....I think we can expect the ratio to be the same, i.e. even.
Now consider this. The gas engine is at the limit of it's technology.....what you buy is just about what you get minus a few mods to squeek out a few more horses. But the diesel is barely scratching it's potential. Like McRat and the others have said. It's de-tuned right now because it will out torque the rest of the drivetrain if you let it. A small cost tune will boost the horse/torque to just about anything you want/need/or dare.
Maintenace is more costly on a diesel....so consider that too.

I like both the 8.1 and the Dmax....I've now towed with both of them and they're both brutes. The Dmax is the better of the two by a long shot when it really gets down to grunting.....Costs a bit more at the outset and recovers a bit more at re-sale. I too went through the same hand twisting and head scratching over which engine to get. I got the Dmax and haven't looked back since.

Good Luck

I have been considering a duramax for my next vehicle purchase, and ran across this spreadsheet give on page 3.

The excel spreadsheet is incorrect. If you purchased two trucks, for simplicities sake let's say the 6.0L is $40,000, and the Diesel is $47,000 ($7000 extra for power package). When you go to sell them a few years later, assuming similar mileage, and the selling difference as shown in the spreadsheet example ($5,500) you may recover $20,000 for the 6.0L, and $25,500 for the diesel.

You have to subtract what you lost to pay for the diesel. $47,000-25,500=$21,500 lost. For the 6.0L, $40,000 - $20,000=$20,000 lost. So you have lost $1,500, plus the $7,000 cost of the diesel. You're out $8,500. That's a LOT of gas to recoop...:eek:

I have been considering a duramax for my next vehicle purchase, and ran across this spreadsheet give on page 3.

The excel spreadsheet is incorrect. If you purchased two trucks, for simplicities sake let's say the 6.0L is $40,000, and the Diesel is $47,000 ($7000 extra for power package). When you go to sell them a few years later, assuming similar mileage, and the selling difference as shown in the spreadsheet example ($5,500) you may recover $20,000 for the 6.0L, and $25,500 for the diesel.

You have to subtract what you lost to pay for the diesel. $47,000-25,500=$21,500 lost. For the 6.0L, $40,000 - $20,000=$20,000 lost. So you have lost $1,500, plus the $7,000 cost of the diesel. You're out $8,500. That's a LOT of gas to recoop...:eek:
The $7000 lost is already in the 47000. The cost fifference between case A (lose 21500) and case B (lose 20,000) is 1500. You don't count the 7000 twice. Unless you work for Enron. :o:

yeah, i have a yamaha grizzly 660 (650Lb 4 wheeler) and our 1999 1500 Z71 Silverado will sag with it in the bed. It is nice however because it needs about 1/8 the "care" that a dmax needs

The $7000 lost is already in the 47000. The cost fifference between case A (lose 21500) and case B (lose 20,000) is 1500. You don't count the 7000 twice. Unless you work for Enron. :o:
Yeah, you're right. I had a brain fart. Scratch that hehe. Buy the diesel:D