So I stopped by my friendly neighborhood dealer today where I bought another company truck a few weeks ago with this DPF crap. Asked a few questions about modifications and right away, BOOM! He says, "Chevrolet just announced a ZERO tolerance for programmers or engine modifications including DPF deletes." He said that now if a truck comes in Chevrolet will know the last 10 programs and will void the powertrain warranty if a program other than theirs comes up. Guys, what do you know. I need your feedback.

hmmm. my suggestion. which may or may not work, usual it does but who knows. Ask them for proof. if there is a new policy then they should have a paper copy or something of that sort on hand to show you. If that doesn't work, well then try and speak with someone in GM. You know. The good old fashioned "go straight to the top" game
Speak with a GM manager or something, find out if its true or not, and if it isn't ask them to e-mail or fax a statement proving this from them to you.

thats what i would do. but thats just me now isnt it?

Its not exactly zero tolerance, but its close.

When warranty service is being done for any failed component the dealers are instructed to pull up the calibration version and take a picture of it and the vehicle VIN in question. GM calibration people then will check the version number vs. known GM tune numbers (its like a check-sum type value), if it doesn't match then there will be further investigation and chances are it won't bode well for you.

Its not exactly zero tolerance, but its close.

When warranty service is being done for any failed component the dealers are instructed to pull up the calibration version and take a picture of it and the vehicle VIN in question. GM calibration people then will check the version number vs. known GM tune numbers (its like a check-sum type value), if it doesn't match then there will be further investigation and chances are it won't bode well for you.


what exactly does that mean....the number of times a program (or programs) have (HAS) been uploaded into the truck?/

well this is my own personal experience. I had my injectors replaced, all 8 of them, on the dealer dime, and i forgot to put the stock tune in....it still had the 65 hp tune on it when they did the work.

when i got it back, it was at stock....not one word was said either

So I stopped by my friendly neighborhood dealer today where I bought another company truck a few weeks ago with this DPF crap. Asked a few questions about modifications and right away, BOOM! He says, "Chevrolet just announced a ZERO tolerance for programmers or engine modifications including DPF deletes." He said that now if a truck comes in Chevrolet will know the last 10 programs and will void the powertrain warranty if a program other than theirs comes up. Guys, what do you know. I need your feedback.

do a search. this has been asked hundreds of times

so is it true u realy cant put for say a ppe programer on a new 2007 duramax it will void ur warinty

trust me i know all about this first hand lol talking with GM now to try to get coverage on my motor

I have posted the same thing as hailchaser a while back. My service manager told me something as simple as an EGR valve is sent back, inspected to deterime if a cold air intake has been installed. If so, warranty denied. This is happening to most warranty claims now. If I recall, the owners book/warranty book says to leave it alone or repairs are on the customer. Ford has had this policy for years.

Though I'm completely stock, I "thought" about doing a couple of things to my truck, dPF delete first and foremost, but after talking with two different Chevrolet dealerships in the area, I got the impression, if you bring the truck in for service, it may be checked to see if it's had a tuner on it or if anything has been done to the exhaust system, and will be "noted" on their service info for your vehicle. I don't know, worked for me whether is was a "scare tactic" or not. I'm stock and I'm going to stay that way for the duration of the warranty.

This should be no surprise to any of us. If you put yourself in GM, Ford or Dodge's shoes I am sure you would crack down as well. Since 2001 when the Duramax came out just think how many of these trucks are out there and what number of them are modded. Some will not have any issues stock or modded but then you have a high percentage of them that are modded that go in and GM fixes it under warranty. Now the argument will be if the truck was modded did whatever was installed cause the issue. So investigations will start which most likely will have a group of people involved which will cost the manufacture a good chunk of change. All three manufactures are in tough times and are cracking down on anything that is costing them money. I am sure most of this could go away if we all agreed to pay $10-$15,000 more for our trucks so the BIG three could recovery things such as warranty claims. The unfair part is when someone owns one of these trucks that has kept it completely stock and only changed oil and filters and has to go through a “third degree” process to get warranty work paid for…

I do not work for any of the three companies; I have owned four Duramax's starting with the LB7 which now I own a LMM. I have used tuners on all of them except my current truck so far (which I am considering if I should tune) but on all my previous I never went over 90hp because I didn't want to smoke the tranny and keep the exhaust temp down. Now I know over time I am sure any extra HP over stock was doing some damage to the tranny.

As for the LMM, the saying has always been "if you are going to play, you have to pay". I think this is extremely true for the LMM and from what we are hearing if we are playing it will be like playing with fire this time!

Dont get me wrong, I hope that if something were to fail on my truck and it was clearly not a tuners fault I would hope that they would step up and fix it, however with that said for good or bad, I pretty much assumed when I started modding my truck I would be on my own, and I am ok with that I just hope this doesnt come back and bite me, but totally on board with the pay to play and assume your own responsibility aspect when modding...Josh

This should be no surprise to any of us. If you put yourself in GM, Ford or Dodge's shoes I am sure you would crack down as well. Since 2001 when the Duramax came out just think how many of these trucks are out there and what number of them are modded. Some will not have any issues stock or modded but then you have a high percentage of them that are modded that go in and GM fixes it under warranty. Now the argument will be if the truck was modded did whatever was installed cause the issue. So investigations will start which most likely will have a group of people involved which will cost the manufacture a good chunk of change. All three manufactures are in tough times and are cracking down on anything that is costing them money. I am sure most of this could go away if we all agreed to pay $10-$15,000 more for our trucks so the BIG three could recovery things such as warranty claims. The unfair part is when someone owns one of these trucks that has kept it completely stock and only changed oil and filters and has to go through a “third degree” process to get warranty work paid for…

I do not work for any of the three companies; I have owned four Duramax's starting with the LB7 which now I own a LMM. I have used tuners on all of them except my current truck so far (which I am considering if I should tune) but on all my previous I never went over 90hp because I didn't want to smoke the tranny and keep the exhaust temp down. Now I know over time I am sure any extra HP over stock was doing some damage to the tranny.

As for the LMM, the saying has always been "if you are going to play, you have to pay". I think this is extremely true for the LMM and from what we are hearing if we are playing it will be like playing with fire this time!

Well said.

I've never understood the logic of spending 50 grand on a brand new truck and then spending another 10 to 15 grand to change exhaust and intakes, jack it too high for safe operation, then on top of that, re-program for more power when a larger truck with everything you need can be had for the same 60-70 grand, and WITH warranty. Instead, many mod their trucks, and it's fun to do and all that, but don't piss and moan about warranty when your work smokes the power train.

The LMM DuraMax runs great already. Making it go faster and jacking it up 6 inches makes for a deadly and hard to stop and control combination.

So someone explain to me why the manufacturer SHOULD warranty any of it?

Well said.

I've never understood the logic of spending 50 grand on a brand new truck and then spending another 10 to 15 grand to change exhaust and intakes, jack it too high for safe operation, then on top of that, re-program for more power when a larger truck with everything you need can be had for the same 60-70 grand, and WITH warranty. Instead, many mod their trucks, and it's fun to do and all that, but don't piss and moan about warranty when your work smokes the power train.

The LMM DuraMax runs great already. Making it go faster and jacking it up 6 inches makes for a deadly and hard to stop and control combination.

So someone explain to me why the manufacturer SHOULD warranty any of it?


You don't understand it because it is YOUR logic & YOUR $$$.:D Why would you care if someone lifts a truck 6"? I've got more time and things to think about than people I see lifting their truck. No harshness meant, but I will agree GM shouldn't pick up the tab if you did something that caused the problem. That said, I knew fully, going into any mod I did to this truck, it probably wasn't going to be covered. If I smoke my tranny, might take it to them first, just to see what they say, but if the warranty is denied, I would never go back stock. I'd take the truck to Merchant, Brayden, etc, around me and have it built to withstand pretty much whatever. Same with the engine. GM is no different than any other manufacturer on their stance with modifications. I chose the pay to play logic, but I also don't run the high HP tunes and drag race it. I just turned 10K miles on my truck. 8500 of those with the DPF in my garage. Best $700 I ever spent, and have already paid for the modification, plus more. Chris

You have to choose your dealer carefully, I have one that is a bit more progressive. If your mods didn't cause the problem then if it's under warranty it's covered. The new LMM's I'm told can tell if the ecm has been reflashed. Buy a second ECM and leave the original one stock. But if what breaks is caused by your mods, GM should not have to cover it. It's your choice, you pay for it. Trying to get GM to cover something that was caused by your decision to mod your truck is the same as stealing in my opinion.

There are risks vs rewards its all up to the individual.Twenty years ago if I could even imagine having this nice of truck I would be more prone to mods but now meh...it does everything I need it to do and more.If I need to see them go fast I will go to the track and watch someone else blow smoke.For fuel mileage I don't use mine enough to spend the extra $ to make the changes-again risk vs rewards.I would be the first guy to blow it up on a level 1 setting and the dealer isnt the issue here its the wife that I will have to hear repeat those famous words of wisdom "why do you men always &%#@ with perfectly good stuff lmao?I still wouldn't trust a dealer when it came down to a real warranty issue (if I had mods)and I wouldnt expect him to put his job on the line either.

Maybe true or not but, i can prove for a fact that we lift dealer rigs weekly, brand spankin new, 6" lifts new wheels and tires and PROGRAMMERS! Hypertec/ superchip , whatever, also banks works with Gm closely on theyre mod's so i really dont think this is true

If a part fails due to a lift...etc what we put on, they have to warrenty it because theyre selling an already lifted vehicle with a warrenty...

And we do this nationwide...... thats my 2 cents worth

Maybe true or not but, i can prove for a fact that we lift dealer rigs weekly, brand spankin new, 6" lifts new wheels and tires and PROGRAMMERS! Hypertec/ superchip , whatever, also banks works with Gm closely on theyre mod's so i really dont think this is true


I agree with you, my brother who is about as conserative as they come had a cold air intake, exhaust and programmer installed by his dealer. They did tell him if he took it to another dealer to return the truck to it's stock tune. His has an 05 LLY.

I agree with you, my brother who is about as conserative as they come had a cold air intake, exhaust and programmer installed by his dealer. They did tell him if he took it to another dealer to return the truck to it's stock tune. His has an 05 LLY.


That's up to the dealer if they want to do that, but would be a sure bet if gm caught wind that the dealer was submitting warranty work for something they chipped/lifted/etc that dealer would have some explainin to do. I agree with some here, your money, your truck to do what you want with it but also don't moan when your warranty is denied.

My question would be how many people have had issues with their trucks that have had programmers and mods installed and been denied warranty claims? Does the ratio make sense or does the ratio make you want to not mod your truck. If one out of every twnty five trucks go in with problems, then I would not mod my truck. If it is more rare then yea, why not, I like mods and being different from every other stock truck on the road. Preference and research is key.

BTW, rims tires and chip on the way, 300 miles on my truck :)

I spent years trying to get the dollarshop to fix the 3 factory problems that my truck came with!:mad: The $20,000 dollars and 40 visits to fix the gutless 24V 5.9 , that I wasted on two of them alone! Since the 53 block cracked I have been biding my time till I can replace the junk:mad: The 09 5500 is on order.:D I will never be taken advantage again like that!
I wish that one could order more of the things that diesels should have in them.

Odds are the dealerships that are being hardasses about programmers, transmissions, exhaust and intakes have been burned on warranty work in the past (GM did not pay them for something they tried to submit). Corporate has gotten savy to this as well and is providing dealers specific things to look for and red light from the get go.

So, here is what I had in mind of doing in mine. I am not a big fan of alternating the ecm programming for big tunes or small tunes when the truck is under warranty. When warranty is over, I can see where someone is ready to play with tuning and upgrades, but also ready to pay when something breaks down because of these alternations. However, I do believe if some alternations on my truck will "help" it to operate more efficient and easier, then I am a big fan of doing that. For example, my truck on my signature has 650 miles on the clock. I would like to buy EFI Live and delete all the emissions crap, stuck the EGR valve and get a new exhaust system with no regens which regens I believe that are "wear and tear" on the fuel system. What would the dealer do then?

Guys this is not new news.....it's been common knowledge since the 07.5's came out.

GM has installed code that keeps tabs on the last 10 tunes that have been loaded into the ECM. They are now requiring GM techs to bring up this tune log and take a picture with the trucks VIN number on the screen to verify that the DEALER isn't trying to get warrantly work covered for a truck that has had a tune. This is about as zero tolerence as it gets. That means no matter how "nice" your dealer is, it may be out of their hands when your tranny goes south. GM is of the opinion that a majority of their warrantee claims are caused by tuners....and they may have an argument there.

I would like to know from a GM tech exactly what type of repairs requires the picture of the tune log in order to be covered under warrantee. Is it any engine related fix? Any tranny related fix? Any rear end related fix? If your cupholder is broke do they check for tunes?

As of right now Diablo is the only company advertising that they have a work around for this right now. I've posted on their forum and had one of their employees that I have worked with before tell me that their tuner will not show up......I don't know how they do it nor do I have a way to verify that they are telling the truth. I do know that EFI was talking about doing the same thing, and then went quite about it. When pressed they will say that it's a morality thing and they don't plan on releasing the "fix".

I would like to know from a GM tech exactly what type of repairs requires the picture of the tune log in order to be covered under warrantee. Is it any engine related fix? Any tranny related fix? Any rear end related fix? If your cupholder is broke do they check for tunes?


Engine related YES
Tranny related YES
Rear end related YES
Cup holder NO

Engine related YES
Tranny related YES
Rear end related YES
Cup holder NO




Good thing my cupholder is under warrenty, but what about extreme hot or cold tempature of my beverage?

Good thing my cupholder is under warrenty, but what about extreme hot or cold tempature of my beverage?

Are you sure the cup holder is under warranty???

One dealer service writer I have dealt with in the past in Phx.,states if there is no trouble code on what the problem is,then we won`t know what to fix. And then we cannot repair/fix it.

I am not kidding,and he was serious.

After owning my 07.5 for 3 months I found my radiator cap to be faulty and even tested it, it was defective. But since there was no trouble codes leading to this,which there would not be. The dealer would not replace the $10 radiator cap.
Thats OK! I just bought one at the dealer that day and returned the defective one the next time I drove by there,one week later.
I was not totally lieing when I told the parts guy the one I just bought was defective. And I exchanged it for another new one that I keep in the glove box.
If at all possible when someone trys to screw me and thinks they have succeeded, I will find a way to even things out, some how.

The same treatment on a battery in my wifes 07 Denali,dealer refused replacement even though the battery only could hold 12.2 volts.
Bought a new battery,and 6 months later found a good service writer telling him what took place, and with the proper paper work filed, I got a refund.

I like our GM products but the true customer service in the service dept. can be questionable at times. It is hard to find someone that is concerned in working for our best interest.

I dont' understand how diablo has a way to work around their chip not being seen. can't a dealer log into the truck history and see some massive(or not so massive) spike increases in boost?? I dont' think any of them have a way to hide what they are doing. Oh well, i had an edge in mine since 1000 km's, now have 12000 km's. no since worrying about it, just try to drive some what sanely and I've never had a problem with the 4 duramax's that I have owned. knock on wood.lol

Whether or not they can detect a tune, they know what the after effects of them are on the power train, and will act based on that alone.

They have a huge amount of data and a lifetimes worth of history on stock trucks and they (or any trained experienced tech) can easily discern between a failure of a part due to flaws -vs- one hulled by a tune and an idiot behind the wheel.

Who can blame them for trying to cut warranty expenses due to abuse by owners? We're talking many millions of dollars here.

Say you have an eng./ D.T. issue and have run a tune of any kind that will show in the last 10 flashes can your buddy that works at the dealer re flash your ecm 10 times or even pay for it... I guess this could work but once they see that it was flashed 10 times in a row they could get to questioning the teck....... also this picture they are requiring does it show the vin of the truck etc...if not why not pull the info from a new truck on the lot?.... just thinking out loud here... I know when I work at a Ford dealer we couldn't pull the info from one to fix another because it all had the VIN in the pics./ freeze frames etc.

The vin is in the ecm.....also can't reprogram a ecm with the latest cal already installed, and old cals are locked out.

The 10 tune history is not "the last 10 tunes" it's the last 10 different tunes. Meaning that if you reload the same tune 10 times it will only record it one time.

The ECM does not log max boost or fuel injected. Most tunes mess with injector timing which is easily seen as a star pattern on the piston. Where I see more of a grey area is say the gov-bomp lets loose......was it the tuner, or is it just the crappy design?

Say you have an eng./ D.T. issue and have run a tune of any kind that will show in the last 10 flashes can your buddy that works at the dealer re flash your ecm 10 times or even pay for it... I guess this could work but once they see that it was flashed 10 times in a row they could get to questioning the teck....... also this picture they are requiring does it show the vin of the truck etc...if not why not pull the info from a new truck on the lot?.... just thinking out loud here... I know when I work at a Ford dealer we couldn't pull the info from one to fix another because it all had the VIN in the pics./ freeze frames etc.

You looking to scam the manufacturer for free repairs that you caused by running damaging systems on a stock engine??:D

The 10 tune history is not "the last 10 tunes" it's the last 10 different tunes. Meaning that if you reload the same tune 10 times it will only record it one time.

The ECM does not log max boost or fuel injected. Most tunes mess with injector timing which is easily seen as a star pattern on the piston. Where I see more of a grey area is say the gov-bomp lets loose......was it the tuner, or is it just the crappy design?

Crappy designs or production errors tend to weed themselves out within serial number groups and dates..

The after effects of tunes are very easily uncovered. Like I said above, engine makers have already created all sorts of tune related dyno testing calamities, so they know ahead of time what normal looks like and what abnormal looks like..:)

What sucks is that there are lots of scenario's like a tranny related failure be it a pump failure or every clutch in the trans burning up will be blamed on the tuner. We all know a pump failure is not going to be caused by the tuner, but it will be blamed.

We just have to accept that tuning of these trucks in any way will void the entire warrantee.....period, no way around it. I just wish I could opt out of the power train warrantee and put those few thousand dollars back in my pocket.

The LMM DuraMax runs great already. Making it go faster and jacking it up 6 inches makes for a deadly and hard to stop and control combination.

So someone explain to me why the manufacturer SHOULD warranty any of it?
__________________

don't be a little c0ck! im runnig a 6 inch lift with 35's and about 500 hp and 1000 torque and zero problems. ya i have a built tranny but motor... i bought a dmax because they are proven motors and are not a FORD!!!!

Ugg god you just don't get it do you?

What I want warrantee'd is anything that breaks not related to the tuner. GM is taking the stance of blanket voiding the warrantee if a tuner is used.

You put rubber pads on all the corners of the dining room table too don't you?:rolleyes:

My truck is 100% stock, and she's going to stay that way!

after the way they treated my dad and i when we both had issues with our 6.5 duallys, i decided i would do what i want to my lmm and just laugh at their stupid "warrenty" gm still makes the best trucks hands down, ive owned em all [fords suck the most] dodge has a motor but garbage for cab and rest of chassis. ill probably have this lmm untill the doors fall off and it probably will not see a steelership ever just like the rest of my rigs. altho i should have driven that 07 ford right thru cam clark fords front window and walked away. my 02

Sell them and buy 06's or earlier with extended warranty . :D

I think that GM has the right to void warranty on engine failures and trans related issues from big performance , kinda sad when you cough a motor because of a failed injector though , and have signs of performance on pistons and cylinder walls , I didnt even try to deal with them and just built another motor . Even though I showed my piston to the dealer guys and first words were you stuck an injector . They still couldnt of done anything because of signs of performance on cylinder walls . Alot of dealer guys would like to help you , but if GM wont cover it they would be stuck with the bill . Voiding the warranty on everything is ridiculous .... Think of how much money they are going to save with this blanket policy .

It's all about the $$$$ and a bunch of BS to void stuff that is absolutely unrelated period to tuners . We all new this was coming at some point .

But they are going to stick it to the new truck guys , and are .

The sadest part of it is the mileage new lmm's get with the particulate filter and you are stuck with 14-15 on a truck capable of 22 mpg . That is the biggest BS part of it . You change it to make it like it should be and you are void . That sucks .

Some guys just want thier mileage with no performance and are caught in a real tuff position . Mileage vs. Waranty

Unless your on the track turning 1/4's or towing more than recomended there is no reason to go with a programmer. You have the best truck and most power out there already. Save your money for looks. My LMM tows a 13,000lb 5th wheel up 7% grades all day long at 70 mph. My 05 power stroke had trouble towing the same trailer at more than 55mph. I plan on getting 400K out of the tranny and engine. So far 27K and just a damn idling problem. Add a programmer and I'd probably be lucky to get 100K out of the tranny.

After reading all your replies to this thread I started I am closer to determining my future for my truck (with factory warranty vs. without factory warranty). It all depends on the truck owner. Some of us treat owning the truck and customizing as a hobby where as others the truck is just a truck and nothing more. I think it really comes down to each of our own individual preference. For me I am a lot closer to saying, "SCREW THE WARRANTY, I WANT THE BEST TRUCK I CAN HAVE! I am very interested in the PREDATOR as some of your replies indicate that there programming can't be traced when GM runs their past 10 tunes check at time of service. My 06 has the Diablo Predator tune set at 85hp and mileage went up almost 4mpg and the truck runs much better. Lets get some more feedback on this PREDATOR program that some are saying GM can't trace??????????????????????????????????

Agreed. Ok you got me interested. I went to Diablo Sports web site and looked at the install instructions for the predator ( also see autoanything for instructions). Turns out that the 65hp tune does not recommend to tow more than 8,000lbs and include inclines which counts me out. The tow tune is the same as stock for towing but again think of inclines (Is this there way of saying good luck and donb't call us if your truck breaks?????). I'd love to have more power but with what I am towing I just need to stay stock and hold on to my suposedly 100K power train warranty. Also check out Bank's claim that only their tuner will keep exhaust temps low enough for stock exhaust. Diablo recommends a bigger exahust (I am not an expert so I do not know what that means).

Good luck. I will check back to see what others recommend. More is better.

Maybe true or not but, i can prove for a fact that we lift dealer rigs weekly, brand spankin new, 6" lifts new wheels and tires and PROGRAMMERS! Hypertec/ superchip , whatever, also banks works with Gm closely on theyre mod's so i really dont think this is true

If a part fails due to a lift...etc what we put on, they have to warrenty it because theyre selling an already lifted vehicle with a warrenty...

And we do this nationwide...... thats my 2 cents worth
Correct, if it is an aftermarket mod pkg to a new truck sold thru the dealer, the dealer must warranty it with the standard terms of the manufacture warranty offered at the time.

Why the hell do you think the dealers have a 60-80% markup on those pkgs? They are covering their bets so if they have to pay up for warranty work on mods. Most probably make it thru warranty just fine and dealer ends up making a ridiculous margin on aftermarket mod pkgs.

In the May 2008 issue of Diesel Power GM Powertains (GM) had Banks install one of there systems on a LMM.
if you have the banks system installed on a LMM and GM will not warranty it, is bank Responsible for the failer of there system.
check out SEMA rules at this web site.

http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?ID=50096

If a lift kit causes an alignment problem with drive shaft angle and you smoke a pinion bearing that winds up eating the differential, GM will NOT warranty it, even if a dealer sold the truck that way new. The dealership and their subcontractor are on the hook. The dealer may cover the cost in house but it still gets passed on to every customer who buys there in the form of higher prices and costs of service.

In the May 2008 issue of Diesel Power GM Powertains (GM) had Banks install one of there systems on a LMM.
if you have the banks system installed on a LMM and GM will not warranty it, is bank Responsible for the failer of there system.
check out SEMA rules at this web site.

http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?ID=50096
Not say that not true but its hard to believe that Banks would eat something like that. When someone chunk a engine with another programmer, then order a Banks, reflash 10+ times then go in for warranty work.

i take my progrmaers out before taking mine in, most small thing they will cover but the last time i took it in with a blown trans they were gonna cover it till one of the by the book mechanics complained. warrenty is only as good as your dealer

Everyone knows that Regens are stored in the ECM. But from what im seeing here GM is asking for a picture of the CVN# and the VIN. Not digging to that extent.

Im assuming the safest way to get away with warranty repair is to have a second ECM and to swap them out if need be.

Anyone agree? Disagree? I need to dump my DPF and the DPF only. No power tunes here and I dont want to see warranty issues in the future.

If you run a tuner and cause engine damage, the proof will be in the engine itself as well, don't forget the pattern on the piston, cylinder walls, bearing surface and other hard parts say alot, so swapping ecms may not be the answer, dont forget about that huge pic bulletin that shows what engines ran with tuners do to hard parts. Also you cannot reflash a oem ecm with oem calibration 10 times to get around this, once the latest cal is loaded you cannot reload it again to count 1,2,3, etc., the computer does not allow it. All the older cals are locked out, so you are stuck with the one cal availible. we can check for aftermarket cals on 06 and newer GAS and 05 and newer DIESELS. Just be careful and weigh out the pros and cons about tuners, is 80hp and 3 mpg worth the risk of a major hassle and a chance of a BIG repair bill??...thats something each person has to ask themselves......

Everyone knows that Regens are stored in the ECM. But from what im seeing here GM is asking for a picture of the CVN# and the VIN. Not digging to that extent.

Im assuming the safest way to get away with warranty repair is to have a second ECM and to swap them out if need be.

Anyone agree? Disagree? I need to dump my DPF and the DPF only. No power tunes here and I dont want to see warranty issues in the future.
Its looks like GM has an ace up there sleeve. There has been talk about the CVN# is being stored somewhere eles other than the ECM.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=8471&page=2 Post #19
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246511 Post #61

Its looks like GM has an ace up there sleeve. There has been talk about the CVN# is being stored somewhere eles other than the ECM.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=8471&page=2 Post #19
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246511 Post #61

I think you should be linking to Post #33 and beyond where testing methods and results are posted. While I'm not going to dispute post #19, I think questions about the testing methods and results need to be posted to draw any conclusions.

Cheers
Cindy

I think you should be linking to Post #33 and beyond where testing methods and results are posted. While I'm not going to dispute post #19, I think questions about the testing methods and results need to be posted to draw any conclusions.

Cheers
Cindy
Guess I should have read the whole thread. O well I stand corrected. Swapping ECMs might do the trick. Im not really worried about it though. Figure if its breaks, it need to be upgraded. :D

Check out the SEMA web site: Federal law prohibits the mfg. from denying warranty coverage unless they prove that an accessory or modification cause the damage. I just had my '08 into the dealer yesterday for some service bulleting issues; they disconnected my Banks 6 Gun to do the ECM reflash and reconnected it again, and didn't even charge me! Dealers vary all over the map; my battery ran down right after I bought the truck, and the dealer I took it to was "suprised there was a battery problem - diesels have glow plugs" ...

Cant You Just Flash The Ect 10 Times With A Stock Tune Before Takeing It In?

Cant You Just Flash The Ect 10 Times With A Stock Tune Before Takeing It In?

Based on other posts, it doesn't work that way. The ECM records the last 10 different programs it's been flashed with, and it won't allow you to flash an earlier version of the program over a newer version, stock version at least.

Cant You Just Flash The Ect 10 Times With A Stock Tune Before Takeing It In?
It records unique data only - reflashing the same tune 10 times only creates a single record.

Cheers
Cindy

HOW would something like changing speed limiter show up?

This is where you buy a stock controller with GM's good old stock tune on it in case you ever have to bring it in...could be cheap insurance.

Check out the SEMA web site: Federal law prohibits the mfg. from denying warranty coverage unless they prove that an accessory or modification cause the damage. I just had my '08 into the dealer yesterday for some service bulleting issues; they disconnected my Banks 6 Gun to do the ECM reflash and reconnected it again, and didn't even charge me! Dealers vary all over the map; my battery ran down right after I bought the truck, and the dealer I took it to was "suprised there was a battery problem - diesels have glow plugs" ...


I agree in principle, however I bet alot of dealers and he manufactors will have you hire a attorney and take it to court, who wants to do that and how much will that cost?

Cant You Just Flash The Ect 10 Times With A Stock Tune Before Takeing It In?


I believe several gm techs that are memebers on this board and work on chevys and gm everyday said this would not work.

Still think your best bet is to buy a second ECM and don't mess with the original one.

Still think your best bet is to buy a second ECM and don't mess with the original one.
I just took my 7.5 silverado in due to a faulty egr cooler, steaming all over the place! I had to call the service manager and tell him NOT to reflash the ecm cause I don't like the fact it reduces fuel mileage and he said NO PROBLEM but we will see what he says when they have to replace the egr cooler only 11,000 miles ..it will be warrenty work ...
also how much is a new ecm?
it might be a great insurance policy!

From what I understand on most small things GM doesnt request a print out from mechanic . But on larger items , complete trans , motor , transfercase , rear end , front diif , ect . They ask for a print out of ecm .

Also true that for a while now if doing a motor on all trucks lb7,lly,lbz,lmm , GM has been asking a long list of questions to be answered on visuals on motor from mechanic . Cylinder wall polishing and where this at , piston top flower pattern , and many other questions that are a definant sign of HP . Im wondering at what power level that stuff becomes apparant . You wouldnt think just running good tow tune would cause some of these telltail signs .

Ive seen the signs of HP on 2 of my motors , but I ran them at 500hp . It was marked on upper and lower side of cylinder like the piston was beng pushed on so hard it rocked in the bore and lightly marked the bore , and the flower pattern on top of piston was also obvious . Not sure what you would really see on a bearing , that would be hard to say if you towed heavy loads even with stock tuning .

These are the things GM diesel mechanic has told me . And what a pain it is to go through all the question on the phone . If they lie and the motor goes back to GM for inspection and signs are seen it will fall back on them bad . It has gotten more difficult for them last few years . GM is cracking down hard on them and us .

I also hear that getting a LMM ecm isnt that easy either . Not sure on this .

And that the Vin info might be store in BCM and TCM . Not sure on this though either . Others might be able to clarify this better .

Johnny

Still think your best bet is to buy a second ECM and don't mess with the original one.

If I owned a lmm I would be all over this idea , But is info stored in other places Ken .

That I can't answer, will talk to my GM tech and find out for sure.

Pay to play, if you're worried about it, don't mod it or get the second ECM. With GM losing money hand over fist, I am sure they will look for anyway to put costs back to consumers. IMHO, if you run performance mods, you should be closely scrutinzed during warranty work. The warranty does not extend to performance mods. Not saying all your gadgets cause the problems in every case, but they do and should raise eyebrows at GM service depts since they are not warranted equipment.

What I really get a kick out of on these mod threads is the guy bitching because GM won't cover his engine or tranny when he was running a top level tune and fragged it.

Ive been waiting for one of my gm guys to figure this out also .

I dont beleive in guys ripping the dealer . but I also dont believe in the dealer ripping guys on unrelated issues to power and voiding warranty .

They are abusing this policy and not fixing things completely unrelated to tuning and power . Even GM guys will tell you that .

Just talked to my GM tech and he said he wasn't totally sure. There are areas within the ecm that can only be accessed by people of higher authority then the tech. One thing he said is the Glow Pug module and the ecm share fuel flow rate data but he doubted if anything else is stored in it. So the short answer is a second ecm will most likely cover the problem but if you had a catastrophic failure and the regional reps must come and ck the engine and look for high HP signs then a second ecm is not going to help you much. Again as I stated earlier in this thread, if you had a bunch of HP and it causes a failure, GM shouldn't cover it, it's on you. But if the problem was in no may caused by mods, they should cover it. If a second ecm is needed to ensure that then so be it.

X2 Sub . Agreed 100%

Wow I read this whole thread and wonder to myself, like others have said, if you are concerned then don't MOD the engine but if you have deep pockets and don't care then by all means mod away.

for me I will stick with the stock setup, I will never have issues, with dealer or warranty, and it does everything i need it to do and more. I didn't pay 40k+ to have a race vehicle that is what my race car is for. This truck is to get to the race track.

Wow I read this whole thread and wonder to myself, like others have said, if you are concerned then don't MOD the engine but if you have deep pockets and don't care then by all means mod away.

for me I will stick with the stock setup, I will never have issues, with dealer or warranty, and it does everything i need it to do and more. I didn't pay 40k+ to have a race vehicle that is what my race car is for. This truck is to get to the race track.

Thats easy to say , but I would have a hard time not running a mild tune .

YOU GOTTA PAY TO PLAY!:ro):damnit1:

This should be no surprise to any of us. If you put yourself in GM, Ford or Dodge's shoes I am sure you would crack down as well. Since 2001 when the Duramax came out just think how many of these trucks are out there and what number of them are modded. Some will not have any issues stock or modded but then you have a high percentage of them that are modded that go in and GM fixes it under warranty. Now the argument will be if the truck was modded did whatever was installed cause the issue. So investigations will start which most likely will have a group of people involved which will cost the manufacture a good chunk of change. All three manufactures are in tough times and are cracking down on anything that is costing them money. I am sure most of this could go away if we all agreed to pay $10-$15,000 more for our trucks so the BIG three could recovery things such as warranty claims. The unfair part is when someone owns one of these trucks that has kept it completely stock and only changed oil and filters and has to go through a “third degree” process to get warranty work paid for…

I do not work for any of the three companies; I have owned four Duramax's starting with the LB7 which now I own a LMM. I have used tuners on all of them except my current truck so far (which I am considering if I should tune) but on all my previous I never went over 90hp because I didn't want to smoke the tranny and keep the exhaust temp down. Now I know over time I am sure any extra HP over stock was doing some damage to the tranny.

As for the LMM, the saying has always been "if you are going to play, you have to pay". I think this is extremely true for the LMM and from what we are hearing if we are playing it will be like playing with fire this time!

I can atest to this better then anyone. This is what my law suit is all about. My truck is stock and they group everyone together and just deny your warranty. You have to fight them. It sucks!!!!:mad:

O.K. so lets say you want to just delete your dpf and tune it out of the system without adding any power to your truck! What can you do, and can you still maintain your warranty?? I don't see how the crapy dpf delete is going to make your drive train malfunction!

You'll loose your warrantee.....period. The simple act of removing the DPF won't void your warrantee....but it is illegal, but you HAVE to use a tuner to turn off the codes. GM has no way and no interest in taking the time to look at your custom tune to see if you changed anything that would void the warrantee. To them a DPF delete tune is the same as a 200hp race tune.

I do agree with the post above.

I wouldn't get my panties in too much of a bunch, most of the techs at the stealerships around here were changing oil at wal-mart 2 weeks ago. All I have done to mine is a 15hp tune from ppe for economy. If gm wants to void my warranty for that, we will have problems, but I am not gonna worry until it happens.

I don't think you've read enough......the dealerships MUST, HAVE TO, ARE REQUIRED, and any other words that mean "no way around it" turn in a picture of the tech II with the programing history in order to get paid by GM for warrantee work. I don't care if a walmart oil jockey is doing the work he will still have to do it or the owner of the dealership will miss a payment on his Escalade.

Your comments are exactly why GM doesn't care what type of tune you have, the walmart rejects barely know where the "ON" switch is located on the tech II let alone what does what in a tune.

Allow me to bring a feeble candle of reason to this discussion: the point is moot until you have a warranty issue to dispute with GM. THEN Federal law (and state law in CA and perhaps others) places the burden of proof on GM to PROVE that your modifications CAUSED the issue that you are applying for warranty coverage for. Sounds simple? Who has more money to pay for lawyers? You or GM?

Comparing a mild 15hp tune to removing the DPF is not comparing apples and oranges.

Just imagine yourself in court, toe-to-toe with GM's legal eagles, telling them that you kwew exactly what you were doing removing the DPF, and that all the engineers at GM are full of ...

Bingo !!!!!!! We have a winner!!!!!!

Finally someone understands what I'm talking about.

Just wanted to point something out about the recording of flashes and companies making claims of getting around that.

I can see that happening 100%.

Being a software engineer by profession I can say without a doubt that if someone can create a piece of software to store this information in a man made piece of hardware... well someone else can reverse engineer it. Add to that the fact that GM (or any manufacturer) is not using the latest NASA encryption for the data in our trucks it didn't (yes I said didn't) take the right people a long time to crack this. There have been far harder things cracked before this. It's all about how much money is out there to be made that determines the how much effort someone puts into it.

I am not saying that the physical signs of the tuners won't be there... but again I'm100% sure that the location, structure, and algorithm for the "tune data" have been figured out by this time. It's just a matter of who ponies up the cash for the software.

Will a new ECm work for me seeing i have already modded my org. one.Can i chang it out when needing to take it too the dealer?

I don't think you've read enough......the dealerships MUST, HAVE TO, ARE REQUIRED, and any other words that mean "no way around it" turn in a picture of the tech II with the programing history in order to get paid by GM for warrantee work. I don't care if a walmart oil jockey is doing the work he will still have to do it or the owner of the dealership will miss a payment on his Escalade.

Your comments are exactly why GM doesn't care what type of tune you have, the walmart rejects barely know where the "ON" switch is located on the tech II let alone what does what in a tune.


x2 :D

Allow me to bring a feeble candle of reason to this discussion: the point is moot until you have a warranty issue to dispute with GM. THEN Federal law (and state law in CA and perhaps others) places the burden of proof on GM to PROVE that your modifications CAUSED the issue that you are applying for warranty coverage for. Sounds simple? Who has more money to pay for lawyers? You or GM?

Comparing a mild 15hp tune to removing the DPF is not comparing apples and oranges.

Just imagine yourself in court, toe-to-toe with GM's legal eagles, telling them that you kwew exactly what you were doing removing the DPF, and that all the engineers at GM are full of ...
besides the fact that tampering with emmission devices is a federal crime and could be punishable if this type of lawsuit came up.

Will a new ECm work for me seeing i have already modded my org. one.Can i chang it out when needing to take it too the dealer?
you could but it needs to be programmed at a dealer but they dont need your old one to do it.

#08-06-04-006B: Information on Identifying Non-GM Calibration Usages for LMM Duramax Diesel Engine - (Jun 27, 2008)


I wont print the whole tsb this is just a teaser.

this has already been posted numerous times

Read the sticky in EFI live forum they have done it a few weeks ago but are afraid of being sued by GM. It is a long read but worth it. Did not read this whole thread sorry if this is a re post

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=8471 Sorry!!!!!

The new LMM's I'm told can tell if the ecm has been reflashed. Buy a second ECM and leave the original one stock.

Can anyone verify that this would work.........buying a new ecm, taking out old one and using tuner on new one? Could a dealer not tell you'd used a tuner if you put the old ecm back in for a visit to the stealership?

looks like rockauto has the ecm for $336

If the tech knows what he/she is doing they can tell something is not right. There other things to look at other than the cvn.

Allow me to bring a feeble candle of reason to this discussion: the point is moot until you have a warranty issue to dispute with GM. THEN Federal law (and state law in CA and perhaps others) places the burden of proof on GM to PROVE that your modifications CAUSED the issue that you are applying for warranty coverage for. Sounds simple? Who has more money to pay for lawyers? You or GM?

Comparing a mild 15hp tune to removing the DPF is not comparing apples and oranges.

Just imagine yourself in court, toe-to-toe with GM's legal eagles, telling them that you kwew exactly what you were doing removing the DPF, and that all the engineers at GM are full of ...


at this point I think I do....:D

been over this 100000000 times

HEY EVERYBODY I HAVE A ? THIS IS WHAT I HAVE ON MY TRUCK IN YOUR OPINON IS MY TRUCK OUT OF WARRANTY?
1. 5% WINDOW TINT ON ALL WINDOWS INCLUDING WINDSHIELD:D
2. MUDFLAPS FRONT & REAR
3. BOOST & EGT GAUGE
4. 7 inch STACKS BEHIND DPF HAD UGLY STOCK BAZOOKA TUBE OUT BACK
5. STOCK TUNE
6. 22.5 ALCOLA WHEELS 255/70/22.5 TIRES HAD UGLY STOCK 17inch WHEELS WITH HUBCAPS
7. STOCK INTAKE
8 .WINDOW VENT VISORS
9. TOOL BOX
10. PRODIGY BRAKE CONTROLLER STUPID GM TECH THROUGHT THAT WAS AN ONBOARD TUNER AND TRIED TO DENY MY WARRANTY CLAIM :snipersmi:smashfrea(RETARDED GM TECH)
11. STEERING WHEEL KNOB
12. PVC RE ROUT
13. REMOVED RESONATOR

AM I BORDER LINE OR WHAT BECAUSE THE TRUCK WAS A PLAIN JANE WHEN I BROUGHT IT????? DO YOU GUYS THINK GM WILL FIND A REASON TO DENY A CLAIM ON MY TRUCK??:D:D

With that same GM tech, you may have an issue with the steering wheel knob:D

HEY EVERYBODY I HAVE A ? THIS IS WHAT I HAVE ON MY TRUCK IN YOUR OPINON IS MY TRUCK OUT OF WARRANTY?
1. 5% WINDOW TINT ON ALL WINDOWS INCLUDING WINDSHIELD:D
2. MUDFLAPS FRONT & REAR
3. BOOST & EGT GAUGE
4. 7 inch STACKS BEHIND DPF HAD UGLY STOCK BAZOOKA TUBE OUT BACK
5. STOCK TUNE
6. 22.5 ALCOLA WHEELS 255/70/22.5 TIRES HAD UGLY STOCK 17inch WHEELS WITH HUBCAPS
7. STOCK INTAKE
8 .WINDOW VENT VISORS
9. TOOL BOX
10. PRODIGY BRAKE CONTROLLER STUPID GM TECH THROUGHT THAT WAS AN ONBOARD TUNER AND TRIED TO DENY MY WARRANTY CLAIM :snipersmi:smashfrea(RETARDED GM TECH)
11. STEERING WHEEL KNOB
12. PVC RE ROUT
13. REMOVED RESONATOR

AM I BORDER LINE OR WHAT BECAUSE THE TRUCK WAS A PLAIN JANE WHEN I BROUGHT IT????? DO YOU GUYS THINK GM WILL FIND A REASON TO DENY A CLAIM ON MY TRUCK??:D:D


Im gonna say yes, first because the resonator being taken off. Secondly because you took off the bazooka tube which brings cool air in for the DPF (or something like that)

I think it sucks!!

Im gonna say yes, first because the resonator being taken off. Secondly because you took off the bazooka tube which brings cool air in for the DPF (or something like that)To be truthful i did go to the dealer for warranty work, the dealer tech really admired the truck, he just asked how much was the wheel & tire combo and stacks cost, I guess it depends on the dealer:D:D

To be truthful i did go to the dealer for warranty work, the dealer tech really admired the truck, he just asked how much was the wheel & tire combo and stacks cost, I guess it depends on the dealer:D:D


lol, god love dealerships. Its funny how the response from techs/service writers can vary from dealership to dealership

Guys this is not new news.....it's been common knowledge since the 07.5's came out.

GM has installed code that keeps tabs on the last 10 tunes that have been loaded into the ECM. They are now requiring GM techs to bring up this tune log and take a picture with the trucks VIN number on the screen to verify that the DEALER isn't trying to get warrantly work covered for a truck that has had a tune. This is about as zero tolerence as it gets. That means no matter how "nice" your dealer is, it may be out of their hands when your tranny goes south. GM is of the opinion that a majority of their warrantee claims are caused by tuners....and they may have an argument there.

cant you just reload the ten tunes or is it more than that to it? another thing if you bought a new ecm wouldnt they be able to tell it not one from the factory?

They can also look at the number of regens and see something is wrong.

well no regens thats a economacal truck if you ask me :P

I don't know much about EFI live but why couldn't someone say replicate the tune numbers from a GM tune and load them into the truck so it looked like a stock tune. May be a retarded question but I don't know.

The problem is the CVN number is basically a checksum, a checksum is a physical count of all the 0's and 1's in the code......millions of them. Change even one bit and the checksum changes. No way to change the code without the checksum changing.

This sucks... I have a brand new PPE just sitting. Been debating where to put it on the truck or sell it... Still have 5 years warranty left.

We need a sticky that is simple and to the point..

"IF YOU TUNE YOUR TRUCK YOU LOOSE YOUR WARRANTY"

Bottom line......

We need a sticky that is simple and to the point..

"IF YOU TUNE YOUR TRUCK YOU LOOSE YOUR WARRANTY"

Bottom line......

X2

IM going to ask a real dumb Question---What does LMM and all the other abvs stand for -?? ive looked around here and on the site---

is an engine code like a LT1 or a L88 etc. LB7 being the 1st generation and LML the 5th (2011). Hope this helps.

X2
X3
Maybe some should take note that this thread has like 12 pages of comments and the resounding answer can probably be found on the first one. No point in flogging this horse over and over and over and over and over and over..................

I know new visitors/members may have this question, but how about doing a search and reading some of the thread before continuing this post into perpetuity.

I vote to close the thread.
"pay to play" Tuners void GM warranty end of story.

Thanks you for LMM answer---yep very familar with the old engine codes -craig:)

X3


I vote to close the thread.
"pay to play" Tuners void GM warranty end of story.


I like it...

how about making it impossible to bump up threads that have been 6 months dormant.

lol

you guys expected GM to accept programmers and emissions removal as mods they would accept for warranty repairs? come on :rolleyes:

how about making it impossible to bump up threads that have been 6 months dormant.

I think this is exactly OPPOSITE of what needs to be done, it should be encouraged that old threads be searched and brought back to life if you have further questions. That way all the info you need is in one thread, instead of scattered throughout 100's of threads that contain mostly whining and complaining.

I frequent a road racing board that will out right ban you for not searching first, They will do the same if you start too many new threads instead of bringing back others from the past. They keep the tech in the tech section and the BS in the general discussion section. Just the way it should be. It's THE best damn tech on the net, and there are some pretty heavy hitters from some big race teams and manufacturers that contribute because of the way the boards are run. They have rules that dictate proper posting etiquette, and the members follow them. Of course something like that would never fly on a board such as this, but I do think a general posting guide for newbies would help a lot. Also a better collection of stickies would also cut down on the "noise" and rehashing of subjects, but that's up to the moderators.

'Nuff said Lmm Guy

I think this is exactly OPPOSITE of what needs to be done, it should be encouraged that old threads be searched and brought back to life if you have further questions. That way all the info you need is in one thread, instead of scattered throughout 100's of threads that contain mostly whining and complaining.

I frequent a road racing board that will out right ban you for not searching first, They will do the same if you start too many new threads instead of bringing back others from the past. They keep the tech in the tech section and the BS in the general discussion section. Just the way it should be. It's THE best damn tech on the net, and there are some pretty heavy hitters from some big race teams and manufacturers that contribute because of the way the boards are run. They have rules that dictate proper posting etiquette, and the members follow them. Of course something like that would never fly on a board such as this, but I do think a general posting guide for newbies would help a lot. Also a better collection of stickies would also cut down on the "noise" and rehashing of subjects, but that's up to the moderators.
I agree with you 100%, usually members do search and find it locked but havent found an answer to there question.