this is a dumb question but why cant they convert a 6.5 to a direct injection, with new heads and misc. part would it not beworth while. i mean come on a new redisignd engine is like 8000 bucks. just a ?.

Please, please, please SEARCH BEFORE YOU POST!!!!:mad:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141144&highlight=direct+Injection

You will get your answer much quicker and save everyone's time. There is a vast wealth of knowledge here and the "throbbing brain" can often easily answer yours and many other questions...

Regards,

Why people want to take glass and turn it into steel is beyond me.

The 6.5 is a god awful design. Yes there is a loyal following, but the root design is very poor.

The 6.5 did not start out with a clean board. The 6.5, although nowhere similar, has alot of close ties with a gas engine. From air cleaner to exhaust manifolds, it was never designed by a diesel engine manufacturer, with unlimited access to diesel parts, to be a top notch diesel engine.

I'm not saying the 6.5 can't function. Mine hauls me to work every day. I just cringe when I hear people talking about rodding them. The 6.5 is best for what it was intended for, a light duty diesel. If you want to make a coal throwin monster, start with a better beginning point. Use it to haul you to the parts store to get stuff for your Dmax, Cummins, or Stroke, not for performance.

DI on a 6.5 is a project of mammoth proportions, demanding lots of time, and vasts amount of cash, for miserable performance, just so you can brag that you have something one off.

Bah.

Spend the $10k+ on a Cummins , get it huffin 75 PSI boost, and mate in in your truck. You will have all the fun you want.

Why would you want to convert a 6.5 to a DI?
Even if it could be done I would not want to know how much it would actually cost. It would be cheaper to drop a 12V cummins inside of your truck.
Just my 02 cents!

... It would be cheaper to drop a 12V cummins inside of your truck.
Just my 02 cents!

I don't think that is really true. You could have heads recast (pattern and a small batch run) for about $40,000. Use a common pencil injector and with the machine work, you could probably put a new set of heads on and pistons in for $6000.00 (depending on the volume of orders).

That $6000.00 wouldn't even buy you a Cummins Reman long block...

I am not saying that there is any other merit to such an endeavour (6.5TDI), other than the entertainment and "wow" factor.

I know a reputable pattern maker and several quality CNC machininsts. If I could get paid orders for 20 sets, I would definitely consider the engineering work of getting it done.

I have access to a CMM and could start "mapping out" the 6.5 head this weekend...

Any takers? :D

Regards,

You can get a used 12v for 2000 or less i see them on ebay all the time. Some are twice that but ive never seen them go for 6k unless they were new. Even then i think thats kinda high.

Sure, it's possible to convert the 6.5 to a DI motor.

I'm planning to convert my 6.5 IDI to a 6.6 DI at some point in the future.

But as for doing it, it's simple, as my grandpa says. Pop the hood, remove the radiator cap. Then, drive another truck under the radiator cap and replace. Simple as that!

:)

Why people want to take glass and turn it into steel is beyond me.

The 6.5 is a god awful design. Yes there is a loyal following, but the root design is very poor.

The 6.5 did not start out with a clean board. The 6.5, although nowhere similar, has alot of close ties with a gas engine. From air cleaner to exhaust manifolds, it was never designed by a diesel engine manufacturer, with unlimited access to diesel parts, to be a top notch diesel engine.

I'm not saying the 6.5 can't function. Mine hauls me to work every day. I just cringe when I hear people talking about rodding them. The 6.5 is best for what it was intended for, a light duty diesel. If you want to make a coal throwin monster, start with a better beginning point. Use it to haul you to the parts store to get stuff for your Dmax, Cummins, or Stroke, not for performance.

DI on a 6.5 is a project of mammoth proportions, demanding lots of time, and vasts amount of cash, for miserable performance, just so you can brag that you have something one off.

Bah.

Spend the $10k+ on a Cummins , get it huffin 75 PSI boost, and mate in in your truck. You will have all the fun you want.

it was designed by detroit diesel....since when do they not have access to diesel systems and designs? they JUST put out a 1.5 BILLION dollar engine design...not only that but they've been building nothing BUT diesel engines for many many years....pull your head out of your ass and read up on subjects before you speak. the 350 diesel, was built off a gas engine by people with no access to diesel parts...not the 6.5/6.2 combo....

You can get a used 12v for 2000 or less i see them on ebay all the time. Some are twice that but ive never seen them go for 6k unless they were new. Even then i think thats kinda high.

I specifically stated a Cummins Reman long block for $6000. If you read read read (especially on TDR.com) you will find that you will spend approximately $10,000 on converting your truck to a Cummins. Look it up. It cannot be done with an engine in decent condition for $6000, let alone $2000.00. And any 6BT that you buy for $2000 will need a thorough rebuild and may even need hard parts.

I have researched the Cummins swap extensively, as it was my intention for my current truck.

Regards,

No I'm sorry but thats BS. You CAN pick up a good running engine for less than $2k and probably find a trans for a grand. The conversions definately cost money, but I'm only out about $7k for SAS and Cummins swap.

Why are we trying to turn apples into oranges? Why not just design or find a better fuel injection system for the IDI, strengthen the block and get a better flowing turbo... The 6.5 is full of potential, just gotta figure out how to unlock it.

The ricardo V offset combustion chamber design is very efficent, and with modern injection systems, there is less power loss through heat, so there's less worry for our already prone-to-overheating 6.5.

Heath seems to be doing quite well with these high compression offset combustion diesels ;)

And that's with a lot being left stock.

Face it, IDI is what makes the 6.5 the 6.5, it's quirks, milage and quiet running (cruising anyway :D)

Why are we trying to turn apples into oranges? Why not just design or find a better fuel injection system for the IDI, strengthen the block and get a better flowing turbo... The 6.5 is full of potential, just gotta figure out how to unlock it.

The ricardo V offset combustion chamber design is very efficent, and with modern injection systems, there is less power loss through heat, so there's less worry for our already prone-to-overheating 6.5.

Heath seems to be doing quite well with these high compression offset combustion diesels ;)

And that's with a lot being left stock.

Face it, IDI is what makes the 6.5 the 6.5, it's quirks, milage and quiet running (cruising anyway :D)

X2 on that if i wanted DI i would just get a DMAX

No I'm sorry but thats BS. You CAN pick up a good running engine for less than $2k and probably find a trans for a grand. The conversions definately cost money, but I'm only out about $7k for SAS and Cummins swap.

Don't be sorry, re-read your post and you will realize that you just proved my point. And just think...your truck is not even "running" yet (according to your signature).:o:

And why do you expect anyone to believe that you can buy a "good" 6BT for $2000.00? You can't even buy a "good" 6.5 or 4BT for that.

Call BS all you want, but with regard to the "good" 6BT for $2000.00, I submit that you can't even buy a rebuild CORE for that much. Look for yourselves. (http://motors.shop.ebay.com/items/Parts-Accessories_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__Cummins-dodge_W0QQPartType8182f47ZEnginesComponentsbe8eb8d fQQ_nkwZCumminsQ20dodgeQQQ5ftrksidZp4506Q2ec0Q2em1 QQEngineComponentsPartType35243e15ZCompleteEngines b14aae8aQQ_catZ6028QQ_flnZ1QQ_fxdZ1QQ_pcatsZ6000QQ _ssovZ1?_trksid=p4506.c0.m1)

Regards,

I personally Like My 6.5 the way it is. Sure I want bigger exhaust and a Chip put more for milage than to see how many Imaginary Horses I can hook up to the front of it. My Suburban Hauls my Family and there Friend In safety and on Fuel I make for 1/4 the Cost at the pump. It pulls a 4000# Trailer and my toys all over This Country and I can drive it in Comfort for 6 to 8 hours Until I need a fuel stop. ( hate paying Full price for fuel) For the Money I have in to this Vehicle I could easily Spend $10,000 on a 12V swap and still be way ahead (I would have 16 000 in to the Suburban then; way cheaper than any thing new) But I'm not sure I would want to Ride that 12V for 6 to 8 hours at a time ( I also think I would loose milage) If I poop this one I will just put the money into a Brand New Crate Engine for the Burban.

I don't think that is really true. You could have heads recast (pattern and a small batch run) for about $40,000. Use a common pencil injector and with the machine work, you could probably put a new set of heads on and pistons in for $6000.00 (depending on the volume of orders).

That $6000.00 wouldn't even buy you a Cummins Reman long block...

I am not saying that there is any other merit to such an endeavour (6.5TDI), other than the entertainment and "wow" factor.

I know a reputable pattern maker and several quality CNC machininsts. If I could get paid orders for 20 sets, I would definitely consider the engineering work of getting it done.

I have access to a CMM and could start "mapping out" the 6.5 head this weekend...

Any takers? :D

Regards,


It might even be possible to rework the current 6.5 heads to accept common pencil injectors by replacing the precup and injector with a plug and bushing to hold the pencil injector.

The one of the chalanges would be getting a centered and optimum spray pattern.

Custom forged piston will also be needed to reduce compression from plugging the pre combustion chamber and give an acceptable swirl pattern for a good fuel burn.

it was designed by detroit diesel....since when do they not have access to diesel systems and designs? they JUST put out a 1.5 BILLION dollar engine design...not only that but they've been building nothing BUT diesel engines for many many years....pull your head out of your ass and read up on subjects before you speak. the 350 diesel, was built off a gas engine by people with no access to diesel parts...not the 6.5/6.2 combo....

Thanks burby for calling this guy out on the 6.2/6.5 errors. However the 350 diesel wasn't based on a gas engine. They didn't even share the same bore and stroke as per http://members.tripod.com/~A350Diesel/specs.html .
However, that doesn't change the fact that they were overwelmingly full of problems.

it was designed by detroit diesel....since when do they not have access to diesel systems and designs? they JUST put out a 1.5 BILLION dollar engine design...not only that but they've been building nothing BUT diesel engines for many many years....pull your head out of your ass and read up on subjects before you speak. the 350 diesel, was built off a gas engine by people with no access to diesel parts...not the 6.5/6.2 combo....

Burb, why don't you pull YOUR head out of your ass and read what I wrote, and not read into it.

The 6.2 was designed by the Detroit Diesel division of General Motors. That doesn't mean it is without flaws. NASA built the Space Shuttle, and they lost how many of them?

The 6.5 was GM's answer to a cheaply manufactured, light duty diesel, compliant to emmissions, that could be started in manufacture without costing fast amounts of cash spent reinventing the wheel.

I like my 6.5, don't get me wrong. But the longer I have it, the more I'm saying "Why the heck did they do it this way?" My truck is stranded in my employer's parking lot right now as we speak from these "mistakes" If a good, mechanical injection diesel fell into my engine bay as I slept, I wouldn't shed a tear for the 6.5

I don't care who, when, where, why, or how it was made, but the 6.5 is a crappy diesel. Give me a Perkins, Dmax, Cummins, Hatz.... anything. But I'll pass on the next 6.5 I see. It is too frail in its stock "attire".

You know, I have seen a lot of people put down the 6.5L, mine does what I ask of it every time from haulin the kids around to towing my trailers:hail:. Granted it is not like the newer diesels but I can say that I spend less money on my truck than some of my other friends with the more expensive diesels. You might say that the 6.5L is a poor mans diesel:rolleyes:. It has also been around long enough for people to figure them out and come up with the solutions to fix the factory mistakes:thumb:. I have only owned my truck for about 2 years now and with regular maintenance it has held up well for what I put it through. Any vehicle is going to have problems in its lifetime and this site has helped me with the mods and know how to help prevent problems and repair my truck as needed. If you don't mind turning a wrench every now and again they are great. I personally like the OBD1 system, I have found that I have less problems with it than those around me with the dmax electronics. Granted I might have to get there a little slower than the others but I still get there. Just my .02

Depending on your truck 4wd or 2wd, and NV4500 or auto. A cummins conversion can be had for a realistic price. Obviously the end price is dependent on what you can get a donor motor for and what you start with. I dont care what anyone says I know for a fact you can get good 100,000 - 150,000 mile 12V P-pumped motors all day long for $1500-2000, with everything on it you need check and number of Cummins forums. I started with a NV4500 so all I needed was a clutch, bellhousing, input shaft and clutch master and slave cylinder. If I went stock for stock, I could of done my whole conversion for less than $4000 dollars. I however am building a pulling truck, and the clutch and hydraulic set-up cost $2300.

Saying you could convert a 6.5 to DI for less than you can swap a Cummins into a 6.5 for is just plain ridiculous. And what are you going to do about the fact that you can inject more than 100m3 of fuel into the 6.5 anyways without, custom designing and retrofitting a whole new fuel system? Why dont we just make a good way for women to piss in a urinal to while were at it. I hope your not serious, I used to have alot of respect for you Goldsburg as one of the brighter 6.5 minds along with Turbine_Doc, GMC_td, quantum_mechanic, and few others, now it appears your just another one of the cenial folks that thinks this 6.5 is worth anything more than a bolt on modification. Maybe if you didnt wanna do any fab work and were married to the 6.5 and had no dreams of more than 250 RWHP a AMG longblock would be a worthwhile investment, otherwise, your just polishing a turd.

To Funakitz I'm also in agreement with you, but I and many others believe detriot hasnt designed a good motor since the 2 stroke's they used to be so popular for. The 60 series was great why because it was electronically controlled? Big deal, other than that is still sucked you'd be hard pressed to find anyone with a detriot diesel over CAT or Cummins preference. Detriot's always had a goofy way going about things.

6.5 is good for a few things, a cheap diesel alternative. Folks who love the GMT-400 body style and want a diesel, light to intermediate towing duties, and a daily driver, but it is far from a maintence and user free diesel, it requires alot of knoweldge and upkeep to stay on top of them. It is not, and will never be a good option for those wanted 300 RELIABLE RWHP or more.

I'm just tired of dealing with this headache. If it was a mechanical injection system, I'd like it. This DS4 is a honkin pile of junk. I wanna smash it with a big freakin hammer.

[quote=z79outlaw;2834063]...Saying you could convert a 6.5 to DI for less than you can swap a Cummins into a 6.5 for is just plain ridiculous. And what are you going to do about the fact that you can inject more than 100m3 of fuel into the 6.5 anyways without, custom designing and retrofitting a whole new fuel system? Why dont we just make a good way for women to piss in a urinal to while were at it. I hope your not serious, I used to have alot of respect for you Goldsburg as one of the brighter 6.5 minds along with Turbine_Doc, GMC_td, quantum_mechanic, and few others, now it appears your just another one of the cenial folks that thinks this 6.5 is worth anything more than a bolt on modification. Maybe if you didnt wanna do any fab work and were married to the 6.5 and had no dreams of more than 250 RWHP a AMG longblock would be a worthwhile investment, otherwise, your just polishing a turd...quote]

From my earlier post in this thread:

"I am not saying that there is any other merit to such an endeavour (6.5TDI), other than the entertainment and "wow" factor."

Regards,

Maybe the old 12v cummins are great but I was looking into a 99 24v that a local lot had a great deal on, but after much research I decided that it was too risky of a purchase. Injection pump failures with low lift pump pressures, One on lot I was looking at had 101k miles, and had rebuilt tag on pump, and some 60-75% of the blocks are prone to cracking if manufactured at a certain plant. So I decided untill I could buy a 04 or up, or a dmax, I would just hold onto the 6.5 as it does everything I ask of it, just a lil slower than a newer truck.

Holy smokes, -I haven't been over here in a while, -but I can't pass up posting on this one.

The 6.5 is certainly not the POS that many here are trying to make it out to be. Granted, it ain't perfect, -but what is?

The DS4/PMD affair is perhaps the biggest negative in my opinion, -making the power package less than desirable in terms of reliability. Want a mechanical injection system? -Do what I did and retrofit a DB2, -it's wonderful.

The block/head castings are understood and can be dealt with accordingly. As diesels go, the 6.5 is still one of the least expensive setups to build (cummins-swap included/considered). For the vast majority of us guys running CK's, Hoe's, and Burb's, the 6.5 is a perfect balance of power and economy. While it may not be the best diesel ever made (we already know this), there have been many improvements made to it over the years.

I think the point that Goldsburg was trying to make is that doing the cummins swap ends up costing more than people expect. It is difficult to find ANY decent engine for $2000, -they ALWAYS end up costing more by the time they're freshened-up. If you are able to find a GOOD engine for $2000 or less, -then you are an exception, -not the rule.

The improvements that have been made to our beloved 6.5's haven't occurred as a result of sitting on the sidelines and whining about what a hunk of shit it is and that it isn't worth doing anything to. On the other hand, one must realize what it is that we're dealing with. Would the 6.5 benefit from direct injection? -You bet it would!!

Would it be worth what it cost? Who knows.

Is it worth thinking about?, -Why the heck not?

So what about Smokin6.5's truck? 500rwhp, direct injection.............

Oh, and it's a daily driver

I gotta be honest....I admire Goldsburgs initiative, even if he was being facetious, regarding a DI head for the 6.5. While others say it can't be done, Goldsburg is saying he has the resources to do it. Like he said, would simply be for the novelty and "wow" factor.

I agree with what Ratman says. The mechanical IP seems to be the way to go for those that don't want to dump money into the electronic IP. I have said on numerous occasions, when my PMD and/or IP goes out, I will be converting to a DB2.

I gotta be honest....I admire Goldsburgs initiative, even if he was being facetious, regarding a DI head for the 6.5. While others say it can't be done, Goldsburg is saying he has the resources to do it. Like he said, would simply be for the novelty and "wow" factor.

I agree with what Ratman says. The mechanical IP seems to be the way to go for those that don't want to dump money into the electronic IP. I have said on numerous occasions, when my PMD and/or IP goes out, I will be converting to a DB2.

JB -

Your point is well taken. I do have the initiative and resources to do something like this even if it just for the WOW factor. I wasn't necessarily being facetious, because I COULD do it if enough people wanted to join in. Whether there would be a tremendous benefit or not is certainly debatable. But the capacity to do it is certainly a reality and not a tremendous stretch. I have always been a sucker for the "underdog".

I am also with you on the mechanical conversion after the DS-4 goes to that "Great Pump Shop in the Sky". I have a reliable DS-4 setup now with my DIY remote PMD cooler and Dtech piece. When my electronic pump goes, it will be replaced with a likely detuned DB2-5722.

Regards,

JB -

Your point is well taken. I do have the initiative and resources to do something like this even if it just for the WOW factor. I wasn't necessarily being facetious, because I COULD do it if enough people wanted to join in. Whether there would be a tremendous benefit or not is certainly debatable. But the capacity to do it is certainly a reality and not a tremendous stretch. I have always been a sucker for the "underdog".

I am also with you on the mechanical conversion after the DS-4 goes to that "Great Pump Shop in the Sky". I have a reliable DS-4 setup now with my DIY remote PMD cooler and Dtech piece. When my electronic pump goes, it will be replaced with a likely detuned DB2-5722.

Regards,


Goldsburg,

If I had the resources, I would certainly toss some of it your way for the purposes of exploring this. Again, if nothing else than to have a unique 6.5.

Burb, why don't you pull YOUR head out of your ass and read what I wrote, and not read into it.

The 6.2 was designed by the Detroit Diesel division of General Motors. That doesn't mean it is without flaws. NASA built the Space Shuttle, and they lost how many of them?

The 6.5 was GM's answer to a cheaply manufactured, light duty diesel, compliant to emmissions, that could be started in manufacture without costing fast amounts of cash spent reinventing the wheel.

I like my 6.5, don't get me wrong. But the longer I have it, the more I'm saying "Why the heck did they do it this way?" My truck is stranded in my employer's parking lot right now as we speak from these "mistakes" If a good, mechanical injection diesel fell into my engine bay as I slept, I wouldn't shed a tear for the 6.5

I don't care who, when, where, why, or how it was made, but the 6.5 is a crappy diesel. Give me a Perkins, Dmax, Cummins, Hatz.... anything. But I'll pass on the next 6.5 I see. It is too frail in its stock "attire".

My head is out of my ass, the detroit diesel division of general motors technically doesn't even belong to GM anymore...but at the time of design for the 6.2/6.5, they were an independant company much like cummins and international. and they were and still are building diesel engines that haul your groceries to the store you buy them from. i would rather drive a 6.2/6.5 or any other detroit anyday before i step into the cab of a cummins, because what they lack in SOME reliability they make up for in ease and cost of repairs. GM DID NOT DESIGN THE 6.2/6.5 and GM DID DESIGN THE 350 DIESEL(AT THE OLDS PLANT) OFF OF THE 350 SBC DESIGN...not the same engine, not the same parts, but they took a basic design and size they had, and tried to rework it as a diesel without outside help...and it failed miserably...READ AND RESEARCH i had to do it once, now its your turn