i heard of a lot of people running CNG or propane. which is petter for mileage, power, etc? which fuel is cheaper? what is the process for running them in my truck, what do i need? is it worth it?

Moved to Drugs!

I have CNG on my LMM and have been averaging 30mpg. Public CNG pump in Birmingham $1.36 for GGE.

also, 100 more hp & fpt

Congrats, Its hard to believe until you do it yourself. At $1.36 it will add up in a hurry. Jeff

i heard of a lot of people running CNG or propane. which is petter for mileage, power, etc? which fuel is cheaper? what is the process for running them in my truck, what do i need? is it worth it?

Those fuels vary widely on their cost and whether or not the local infrastructure even supports automotive CNG. For me, here in the Bluegrass, I ran the numbers and it simply wasn't worth it. But... there are others out where CNG is cheap and easily obtained that are doing very well with it.

Search out Marc Deluca out here in the Propane, Nitrous, & Water Meth section - he sells kits and can tell you all about it. Good luck!

lets see if we can get Banks in here to answer some questions. :cool:


:D

Duh what is CNG?
amero

Compressed Natural Gas

Unless you buy propane in huge quantities, it is tough to get it cheap enough to save much anymore. CNG is alot cheaper, but more upfront investment is required. If you have no station near you, you can use a compressor if you heat with natural gas. If you don't have it in your home or a station near by, it isn't even an option.

I heat my home w/NG, how do you get a compressor to fill tanks, and is this leagal?

Well Gents... I have gone Bi-Fuel (CNG/Diesel) with Marc DeLuca's kit and it performs. Have a 2001 LB7 2500HD Crew 4x4 SB with 105k ..miles all stock. Have the 1 generation Pullrite Super Glide 5th wheel hitch in back (350lbs). I have a new 21 GGE CNG composite tank installed in the bed (200lbs empty). Air Ride Airbags in the back.

Visited Marc this past labor day weekend to finish the install and do some testing. Got Marc's kit prior and did the install before the trip, but did not hook up. Just hooked everything up when I got to Marc's place and did some road CNG flow adjusting.

Well here is the summary of the return trip home after the weekend with Marc.... (clearly more power, turbo lag is GONE).

- Filled up to the rim on diesel, shaking the truck to get the air out of the tank as I filled as I always do.
- Only could get 3000 psi of possible 3600psi at the CNG station in Marc's town as it is all that it would provide that day.
- Outside temps we 85-90 all the way home.
- AC on full blast all the way (think I need a recharge as I used to freeze after about 1 hour of full AC).

Normally get 19-20 mpg at about 65-70mph with no AC on.

Totals:
- Return trip home was 253.8 miles
- Did get stuck in a traffic jam for about 30 minutes, and made one stop to a town for dinner.
- Diesel Fuel use = 4.07 Gallons (topped off diesel at my usual home station). The Diesel Guage never moved off "over-full reading).
- Diesel Fuel MPG = 62.36
- CNG USE 2500 PSI of 3000 total PSI at start of a 21 GGE tank.
This is where it gets tricky as a GGE is not quite the same as a true liquid gallon, and I did not get a full 3600psi fill in Marc's town to start.
Assuming a CNG use of 14 GGE / 258.3 = 18.45MPG

CNG here in Michigan is $1.95/GGE and Diesel is $4.20.

Still doing some fine tuning this week, and I believe I can get to the 25-30mpg hi-way combined.

My justification, for the CNG install....
I was going to buy a small used 4 banger to commute to work to get better mileage, but when you factor in the cost of a used small car, the insurance, the maintence on it, state plate fees, and the sheer fact I LIKE MY TRUCK AND LOVE TO DRIVE IT, and I tow a 14000lbs 5th wheel and still want to go on trips without breaking the bank..the math became simple for me....this is all I needed. Getting the 75-100 extra HP, no more turbo lag, and 100-200 more fbt.... Bonus ! I was going to get a bed diesel 2nd tank anyway... and I got a tank... just not a diesel one.

Hello Louie, Glad to see you are trying Marc's kit. It it amazing what that simple little kit will do. I still smile everytime I think about my first trip with Marc and the look on my face when I filled it back up. I think Marc's kit is the best unkeeped secret out there. Jeff

With all of the new sensors and computers in the LMM, will dumping CNG or propane into the engine throw codes? I'd like to invest in this system, but not at the risk running non-stock tunes and programers to clear codes. Seems like running CNG/propane with B100 would fix the DPF regen issue of inadaquate EGT as well.

My system has been installed on quite a few LMMs w/o any problems. Also some 6.4 Fords and 6.7 Dodges.

probably a dumb question, but will this work for a 6.2 as well?

No, it doesn't work on naturally aspirated diesels in vehicles. It will work okay on stationary engines that are constant rpm.

No, it doesn't work on naturally aspirated diesels in vehicles. It will work okay on stationary engines that are constant rpm.

Marc, do you use the kind of regulators the forklifts use, because I think it can be used on n/a engines as well.

Here in Europe LPG is mainly used in gassers and most of them are n/a though they can achieve higher vacuum due to the throttle.

I guess you can overcome this problem by maxing out the regulator. On my regulator I can change the pressure of the lpg and the strength of the diaphragm's spring. I can increase the lpg flow by maxing out the pressure and making the spring weaker. I also have an "adjuster" inline with the lpg hose that goes into the intake. YOu can max that out as well, or if you're using an orifice have a larger hole.

The problem is that with a naturally aspirated diesel, the airflow is rpm dependent, not load dependent. This makes it difficult to deliver enough gas at heavy load w/o overloading it at light load. It can be done, but you need to use a throttle valve on the vapor line. I haven't bothered to do it because there are so few vehicles that are n/a anymore.

Man... if the CNG infrastructure was around here, I'd be on this like ugly on a dog. Maybe someday.

Give T Boone a call. Seriously, I hope to see alot more stations in the next few years.

Give T Boone a call. Seriously, I hope to see alot more stations in the next few years.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on CNG infrastructure being available way sooner than hydrogen... simply because there's more immediate usefulness in it. But... there's just not enough overall adoption of the technology in the average vehicle on the road at this point.

BTW, for those of you who have CNG infrastructure in place in your area... how long does it take to fill your CNG tank? Is it comparable to filling your diesel tank? Or... do you have to plan to eat dinner while it fills?

One other question. If everyone were to standardize on forklift tanks (just for discussion sake) such that you could swap out tanks like you can today your BBQ grill tank at Wally World or anywhere else - just remove the empty and swap a full one - how much distance are you likely to get out of such a tank with a system like Marc's? I'm wondering if one tank would do you, or if you'd have to have a "tank farm" in the back of your truck...

BTW, for those of you who have CNG infrastructure in place in your area... how long does it take to fill your CNG tank? Is it comparable to filling your diesel tank? Or... do you have to plan to eat dinner while it fills?

I bought a used cargo van today that is CNG. It has 20 gallon capacity and I was only able to get 15 into it, took about 8 minutes at public station. Here is Utah CNG is .86 a gallon so 15 gallons cost $13 and change - I left with a big Ol smile!

Filling my 21 GGE CNG tank here in Detroit at Michigan Consolidated Gas Company's Public Facility takes less time than to fill my 26 gal Diesel tank. $1.95/GGE here.....Fill-up less than $40. (Diesel $4.10/gal here at the low end and to $4.29 avg other places)

(Marc: Still got 1/2 a tank reading on the guage for Diesel (26 gallon tank) on that fill-up that I bought in your town 10 days ago, minus the 4.07 gallons I bought here. ... now 390 miles more after I got back home. .. mostly city driving. Looks like this is currently headed toward about 1 diesel tank to 4 CNG tanks ratio .. diesel 26 gal tank to CNG 21 GGE tank... maybe 1 to 5. Still have about 1/2 a CNG Tank (1500psi) on my 2nd CNG fill......We'll see ... Hard to keep my foot out of the go peddle though.... ;-) ... )

One other question. If everyone were to standardize on forklift tanks (just for discussion sake) such that you could swap out tanks like you can today your BBQ grill tank at Wally World or anywhere else - just remove the empty and swap a full one - how much distance are you likely to get out of such a tank with a system like Marc's? I'm wondering if one tank would do you, or if you'd have to have a "tank farm" in the back of your truck...

Hey Marc, can you answer my question above? Or can anyone else?

Randy ... I would not run the risk of using a non-DOT approved tank (such as a fork-lift tank). My truck is getting a lot of attention just driving around town. It only takes one officer having a bad day, and you caught with your foot into the peddle and any number of bad nasties can take over. But this is just my 2 bits... Also you are dealing with 3000 - 3600 psi of CNG. You really need to ensure the quality of the tank you use ...

Randy ... I would not run the risk of using a non-DOT approved tank (such as a fork-lift tank). My truck is getting a lot of attention just driving around town. It only takes one officer having a bad day, and you caught with your foot into the peddle and any number of bad nasties can take over. But this is just my 2 bits... Also you are dealing with 3000 - 3600 psi of CNG. You really need to ensure the quality of the tank you use ...

That's just it - forklift tanks are DOT-approved. That's the whole point of the question. It's BBQ grill tanks that are not DOT-approved.

I haven't ever seen any cng tanks that are swappable. They are so heavy that it isn't practical. The ASME tanks are incredibly heavy, like oxygen cylinders.

I haven't ever seen any cng tanks that are swappable. They are so heavy that it isn't practical. The ASME tanks are incredibly heavy, like oxygen cylinders.

I knew the ASME tanks were not practical - I've seen pics of some of those - they look like they would take up the whole front end of the bed of the truck.

How much does a filled forklift tank weigh? And how much gas do they hold?

I haven't ever seen any cng tanks that are swappable. They are so heavy that it isn't practical. The ASME tanks are incredibly heavy, like oxygen cylinders.

a while back on fleabay a guy in Granville was selling CNG forklift tanks. with the $750-1000 price didn't look for long.

we just started pumping our well last week but it does have some gas and a little oil coming out w/ fraq water. hope it comes in better, the well on the neighbors flooded when they fraq'd it.

How much does a filled forklift tank weigh? And how much gas do they hold?

tank is probably 100# and maybe 3-4 GGE, IIRC

Will this work on a cummins? I drive a dedicated cng f150 here in Ut. When I bought it fuel was .69 a gge now it's up to .87. Still a great deal and plenty of places to fill up but the demand is growing and the station pressure is showing it. Someday I will put in a home fueling station which from what I understand the feds will give a 1k tax credit for.

My system works great on the Cummins. PM me if you want to see one, they are being put on trucks all over UT.

Hey marc are you really in Coshocton? I have tones of family that live there and most of them are well known and if you really are out of Coshocton you would know just as well as I its a small enough town you seem to know everyone. I myself live in Newark/Heath.

im interested in this system how much does it cost and how is the install? where do you buy a tank at that can fit under my bed? thanks all

im interested in this system how much does it cost and how is the install? where do you buy a tank at that can fit under my bed? thanks all

me as well

CNG USE 2500 PSI of 3000 total PSI at start of a 21 GGE tank

So did I read this right in 253miles you only have 500psi left? Is that about 50 miles before your cng tank is empty? So about 1400 miles per tank on diesel for a 24 gallon tank and 300 miles on a tank of cng before empty Does that mean you have to fill your CNG tank about four times as much as your diesel tank?

What happens if you run out of CNG, does the truck just run normal on diesel? Sorry for my ignorance, but this stuff is interesting.

yes i was talking to Marc on his way to California and he said almost 1500 on the tank of diesel and 300 of cng... yes u can either turn the switch off on your dash to shut running it or you can run it till its out and of course it just runs on diesel like normal..

So far, I have logged 2200 miles. I am a bit below a half tank on diesel. I filled up at 1550 miles with 28.3 gal, which is 55 mpg. I have bought about 103 GGE of cng.

Been running Marc's system since Sept 2008 and get 60+ MPG diesel with Marc's system on the hiway. (See my earlier post in this section on my trip back from Marc's place in Ohio to Michigan for details). CNG is still $195/GGE here in Michigan. Diesel is now at $2.19 and increasing.
With Marc's CNG system...Turbo lag.... GONE. Turbo Boost increase from 21lbs to 24.5lbs on my '01 DMax. I have not dynoed yet but MrTruck.com did. He got 245ft lbs tork increase, 85 more HP. Runs great in winter, no yuk power on Winter blend #1 fuel...cleaner oil. Great power...

That $1.95/GGE here in MI, not $195... ;-)

i would like to get the cng system for out LB7. will it have any effect on the first generations?

It will run on any Turbo diesel. I have it on my '01 LB7.

This is intriguing would it work with a aftermarket turbo

Any turbo is fine.

It will run on any Turbo diesel. I have it on my '01 LB7.


ok thanks

I know this is an old thread but I'm just reading about CNG and its very interesting. So when you are running CNG do you burn it and diesel together or what? And I take it you can run just diesel only if you need to?

Yes you need to burn diesel to make the cng work. If you run out it just uses diesel like it would normally. Jeff

is the price worth it?? for the kit i mean, ive read the kits are quit spendy, upward of $3,000 to $4,000....does this sound right?? I put a lot of miles on, this might be a good investment.....

PM me for more info.

Are results with propane similiar to CNG? I do not have natural gas readily available, but can get LP at a reasonable cost.

Yes. I used to run lp on my Dmax, and achieved as high as 64 mpg on diesel as an average on a 1500 mile trip. It was running 4 to 1 lp to #2. However, at that ratio, I had to be light on the throttle to stay out of detonation. Lp doesn't have the octane rating of cng, so you can't run as high a percentage.
You say you can get lp at a reasonable cost, like how much? LP has only 2/3 the energy per gal of #2, so $2 lp = $3 diesel.

I believe around $2/gal, as of a few weeks ago. Something to double check before buying an LP kit. Thanks for the conversion factor of 2/3, it is helpful.

Something else to ask, I assume with detonation issues from LP you would have to back off the LP when towing heavy?

What about on large turbos and large injectors? I have a 472 and 100 overs in my truck. Do you have to change the tuning at all? Timing PW ect?

You do have to reduce the ratio of gas to diesel as load increases. At 100% load, you can burn around 50/50 with cng, less with propane. At light load, you can burn up to 95% gas. My Duramax routinely gets 130 mpg on diesel while getting 21 mpg on cng.

A larger turbo allows you to burn more gas, because with more air you can run more gas before detonation will occur. I would imagine big injectors would hurt you, because at small injection amounts they probably don't spray efficiently. Just guessing.

Yea on my small tune I only have a 1600 pw. Sounds like it might be best for stock trucks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxssKi8A_8o

Here is an example of mileage gains with this system. Uses 7 gallons every 1000 miles. Boost proportionate systems shine when towing, and you should not have to adjust any perimeters on the vehilce to add it. Excessive timing advance on a tune, is the exception.

What brand/where are you guys getting compressors to do this at home at?


There are no CNG stations in AK, but I'd really like to improve my mileage.