Somebody had to get this going. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

Duramax owners be aware there is a controversy going on about the ability of the stock fuel filter to adequately filter fuel to a level that protects the injection system.

Fuel analysis were done and this was confirmed.

Many Dmax owners have taken it upon themselves to design a solution that improves filtration by adding a secondary filter.

In the process, we have found that since our trucks use a vacuum draw system, adding more restriction through the use of super efficient fuel filters is creating some outgassing and air issues on some of the designs.

Some guys are using a lift pump to eliminate the vacuum with great success.

Others have not found air to be an issue..... at least from an operational perspective. Air still could be a factor in the long term.

I was wondering when someone was gonna bring this one up!! I am still on the fence about what filter to get, pre or post, etc. A lot of the talk has been way over my head on analysis and stuff like that. Just goes to show that you are never done learning!! Lots of good info out there, maybe I can start to make some sense of it!!


Good to see you over here Hoot!


Bob

hoot--Thanks for starting this post. I am like 4X4man, been sitting on the fence on this one, I know I need extra filtration, but just haven't deceided pre or post. I did talk to my dealer's service manager about the warranty issue and he said no problem with the warranty if I added extra filter. I ask him pre or post and he said he would do a pre filter, Quote--Not much room for post--Unquote. Told him about people putting them under the air filter box and he was not to impressed with that idea. Didn't say way. Do we know if the air issue is present with the pre filter without the lift pump? Do we know if the lift pump is hurting the injections pump on out motors? I just don't want to cause more problems than we already have. Only have 29,000 on the truck now and have not had one problem with it yet. Sorry for the long post, but I just have to be sure I am doing the right thing the first time around and don't cause problems that I don't have now.

I have been debating on doing something similar. I don't like the idea of cutting into the stock fuel system because of warranty issues. So, has any done this and had warranty problems?

I was instead thinking of adding a secondary fuel tank, somewhere between 25-50 gallons. I would never add fuel (from filling station) to the stock tank, but instead fill the secondary tank. I would use two good fuel filters and a lift pump to fill the stock tank from the secondary tank (i.e. clean fuel). This would keep the stock fuel system stock, give me clean fuel, plus extra capacity.

What do you guys think?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley16.gif

I have been debating on doing something similar. I don't like the idea of cutting into the stock fuel system because of warranty issues. So, has any done this and had warranty problems?

I was instead thinking of adding a secondary fuel tank, somewhere between 25-50 gallons. I would never add fuel (from filling station) to the stock tank, but instead fill the secondary tank. I would use two good fuel filters and a lift pump to fill the stock tank from the secondary tank (i.e. clean fuel). This would keep the stock fuel system stock, give me clean fuel, plus extra capacity.

What do you guys think?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley16.gif

I beleive George Morrison does something similar but he filters the fuel "off" the truck. I believe he has a big holding tank with major filtration.

I think what you are doing is a good idea as long as it doesn't become a real hassle keeping the truck tank filled. The extra tank is a big benefit but at the same time is extra space and weight.Edited by: hoot

Hoot,

I could probably put in a fuel gauge for the second tank and a switch in the cab for the transfer pump. Shouldn't be too much hassle. Most of us that tow would love the extra fuel capacity. The stock 26 gallon tank is not much!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif

Hoot,

I could probably put in a fuel gauge for the second tank and a switch in the cab for the transfer pump. Shouldn't be too much hassle. Most of us that tow would love the extra fuel capacity. The stock 26 gallon tank is not much!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif

You could triple filter using that method!

They sell systems for marine use that actually run for 12 hr intervals, circulating the tank fuel through the filter.....

Looky Here (http://www.fuelpolishing.com/item397.htm)Edited by: hoot

Hoot-


If I remember correctly, you are using a Racor Post OEM with no air problems, right?? I really don't want to add a lift pump to the truck to get rid of the air. But I guess I wouldn't know I had air until I installed the second filter. I just wonder how one person in particular is able to run three filters and not have a lift pump, but others can't even run 1 extra filter without problems.


The saga continues...


Bob

Hoot-


If I remember correctly, you are using a Racor Post OEM with no air problems, right?? I really don't want to add a lift pump to the truck to get rid of the air. But I guess I wouldn't know I had air until I installed the second filter. I just wonder how one person in particular is able to run three filters and not have a lift pump, but others can't even run 1 extra filter without problems.


The saga continues...


Bob

The Racors seem to have a head design that doesn't accumulate air. You also have to figure at least a few of the installs might not have been done airtight so you can't blame all of it on the filters. The more plumbing you do, the more places air can get in.... KISS principle.

A well assembled system will not leak though no matter how many junctions there are.

Thanks for the info Hoot!


Looks like DIS is still out of these Racor setup's according to their website. May have to give them a call and find out what's up. The weather is still good out here, and if I am going to do this, it would be nice to do it while it is still warm!! I guess I'll have to do some searching to see who else has these setups in stock.


One other question. Are the 250psi Parker Fuel lines necessary?? Not that I am being cheap, but what is the difference between say regular fuel line and the Parker Fuel line??

Thanks for the info Hoot!


Looks like DIS is still out of these Racor setup's according to their website. May have to give them a call and find out what's up. The weather is still good out here, and if I am going to do this, it would be nice to do it while it is still warm!! I guess I'll have to do some searching to see who else has these setups in stock.


One other question. Are the 250psi Parker Fuel lines necessary?? Not that I am being cheap, but what is the difference between say regular fuel line and the Parker Fuel line??

Since it's a vacuumm system, you're better off with a higher quality line that avoids collapse and holds up to abrasion. A small price to pay if something goes wrong.

Hoot-


Thanks for the input. I just wanted to make sure that this wasn't something that was way over kill.....not that I am one to over buy on things or anything.. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif


I have seen a few instances where paying more didn't get you more but a lighter wallet. It is nice to know this isn't the case with this fuel line. Again thanks for taking the time to answer my elementary questions on this. The threads on the other board were just too far along for me to be asking these questions or starting a new thread.

I'm reposting this message to incorporate significant changes due to new, expert, explanations on cavitation.


There are two ways that you can mount an additional filter: Either before, upstream of the factory filter (pre-oem) or after, and downsteam of the fatoiry filter (post-oem).


Fuel filter fuel analysis results posted on TDP indicate the best filtration thus far have been achieved with a pre-OEM filter and the OEM filter.


Many have found that mounting their 2 micton Baldwin and CAT filters post-oem have caused air to be trapped in the filters causing random stalling and "no starts." Inexplicably, the filters that cause stalling in some trucks, work just fine on others. Those mounting their filters pre-oem have not reported any stalling/no start problems whatsoever. The RACOR filter is the only filter I know of that can be mounted post-oem w/o any reports of causing stalling.


Those that have installed post-oem filters found that they could cure the stalling/no start problems by installing a lift pump that prevents the entrained air and vapor found in the fuel from normal outgassing that occurs in our stock fuel systems. Air testing performed by chuntag95 indicate that even stock systems produce outgassing and air in our fuel systems - it's normal.


Some will try to selll you a lift pump to eliminate this air claiming that it could cause cavitation. Experts contradict this stating entrained air and outgassed air bubbles do not cause cavitation - airless cavities or voids in the fuel caused by vacuum, and not entrained air or air bubbles, cause cavitation.


For example, when there is suction but not enough fuel to feed a pump, a cavity or void occurs. When pressure is reapplied, this cavity violently collapses which can etch and damage metal.


Moreover, in fact, there has not been a single report of any cavitation problems in the stock Duramax or in Bosch common rail injection fuel systems that I have seen.


To the contrary, evidence points to the opposite conclusion that the Bosch commoin rail fuel sytem is highly reliable. Reports indicate that with properly filtered fuel, our fuel systems should perform reliably, well past the expected service life of the truck. For example:


BROKERS, a long haul car broker, has claimed 2 of his Duramax trucks have gone over 400,000 milies (800,000 combined) with only one injector failure between them.


BROKERS stated that he uses two filters: One filter in the bed with his auxuliary tank and one frame rail mounted RACOR 2 micron filter. He transfers his fuel from the bed tank to the OEM tank, BUT DOES NOT HAVE A LIFT PUMP.


To-date, no one has reported any Bosch common rail injection system fauilures due to cavitation in any forum or reference that I have been able to find. If the design were poor, and if air caused cavititaion as some claim, the entrained air normally found in diesel would cause cavitation on a moleular level.


Apparently, Bosch knows their diesel injection stuff. GM dumped their long standing injector suppliers for the Bosch common rail system and in 2003, so did Dodge. Our common rail system is also used in Mercedes, Alfas, Volvos and VW's.


Bosch has been making diesel injection systems since 1922. Bosch began marketing their common rail injection system in 1997. There are 3,500,000 Bosch common rail systems in vehicles in the U.S. and over 10,000,000 world-wide since 1997. Therefore, with so many common rail systems in real life use, if there was a cavitation problem, I feel it would have been reported and a matter of common knowledge.


There are vendors who have sold many post-oem filter kits only to learn that their filters trapped air that caused random stalling. I had ordered one and this vendor did not warn me about the air/stall problems when I placed my

Thanks HB

While I'm on the subject of filtration... George Morrison (AVLube.com where most send their oil and fuel samples for testing) provided fuel cleanliness standards to shoot for.


The three main filters folks are usining, the CAT, RACOR and the MEGA filter all have proven by testing to filter their fuel well within the cleanliness standards.


I prefer the CAT 1R 0749 that comes with the Nictane pre-oem Bracket because they are huge buckets that will probably last as long as the OEM filter would have, 15,000 miles, and they are readily available everywhere. It was the CAT high efficiency filters that set the standard.


BTW George quoted CAT filter testing results that proved that back pulsations/vibrations from the pumps and injectors lower the effectiveness of filters. Post-OEM filters mounted in the engine cmpartment are in direct line for these pulsations and engine vibrations.


In the pre-oem configuration, the OEM filter acts as a damper for these back pulsations. Also mounting the pre-oem in the Nictane position or on the frame rail eliminates direct engine vibration.


George's recommendations in relation to filtration, plus, CAT filter information can be found in the TDP link below:


http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=006528#000000


George's Main Filtration Thread, described as "The Mother of al Filtration Threads," is at TDP link below:


http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=004373

Just what I was thinking Hoot. Out gassing is not a hydraulic term and has no meaning when discussing our fuel system. The previous post has more inaccuracies in it than my filter has holes. Later! Frank

Just what I was thinking Hoot. Out gassing is not a hydraulic term and has no meaning when discussing our fuel system. The previous post has more inaccuracies in it than my filter has holes. Later! Frank


Please clarify, what inaccuracies?


Are you saying that the pre-oem filtration did not provide the best fuel filtration test results?


Are you saying that our stock fuel systems do not outgas/produce fuel vapor under vacuum and heat?


Not according to chuntag95 who eliminated possible air leaks by running a clear line directly from the tank to test for this and still found air bubbles going into the pump.


Have you seen a single report of cavitation problems in the Bosch common rail injection systems?


Are you saying that George Morrison has not quoted CAT research saying that back pulsations vibes from the pumps, injectors and engine adversely affected filter performance?


Please clarify. What inaccuracies are you talking about?

The part I take loosely is about the pulsing from the injectors. Remember the tests were done on a totally different engine. The injection system on the CAT's are HUEI not HPCR.

"The volume of each Duramax common rail is 16 cubic centimeters and they serve as reservoirs to provide a constant volume of fuel and dampen oscillations as the injectors operate."

Either Caterpillar did not know about the pulse/vibration induced problem or they didn't concern themselves with it. They were told about it when the study George Morrison mention was completed. From the same line of engineering came the CAT designed injection system used by Navistar on the 7.3 PSD. They ended up finding out the pulsations may be a factor in the cackle issue. This is a drivability issue not even getting into filtration.

In summary, it's not wise to compare the results of a test on CAT engines to what "may or may not" be occuring on the Duramax/Bosch injection system until the two system properties are well known.

I would agree that mounting a filter solidly to a running diesel engine block does not add to a filters efficiency, any engine that is.Edited by: hoot

Just passing along George's opinion of a possibility of why the OEM RACOR, supposedley rated for 2 mic, wasn't performing up to spec. He thought the poor OEM filter performance may be related to pulse feedback or engine vibes.


George stated that CAT actually redesigned their filters to compensate. The redesigned filters are the CAT High Efficiency filters that come with Nick's Nicktane Bracket kit.


Your next post-oen RACOR fuel test, combined with other post and pre-oem RACOR terting, should be a good indicator of whether there is a problem.


If there is a trend showing the post-oem RACORS' results to be regulalry inferior to pre-oem RACOR then that may be a good indicator that pulses or vibes are adversely affecting post-oem filter performance.


I believe, so far, the post-oem RACOR fuel test results have been too skewed by bad sampling to be used for comparison.

Mr X,


Despite your self proclaimed extensive knowledge of fuel injection and filtering systems you fail to grasp a few simple and basic concepts here. Any of the filters you mentioned can be installed as a primary or secondary filter - all you have to do is switch around the fuel lines and possibly reposition the mount. Why don't you know this?


What's up with basing a major part of your argument on a ghost? Coming from someone that demands strong hard evidence this is strange behavior indeed. Give em the old razzle dazzle with 800,000 mile claims. You could give your argument a overdose of the big blue pill viagra and your arguments are still limp and lame.


The fuel reports that have been done indicate that all of the filters seem to be doing a much better job than the factory filter, with a few exceptions. You seem more hell bent in dissing someones product and ignoring results that don't support your view rather than providing a knowledgable discussion.


Any pics of the new and improved Nicktane.com bracket?

Lou Furr,


Most folks knows that aftermarket filters, combined with the oem filters, provide better filtration than the OEM filter, alone. And most folks know that you can install the filters in either pre or post-OEM filter configurations.


However, the main point, bullet #1, that you have failed to comprehend is that the pre-oem filters, irrespective of brand, are returning better filtration numbers than the post-oem filters.


Is this a result of George Morrison's speculation that injector pulsing or engine vibes is dragging down the efficiency of the filters? As I mentioned in my repsonse to hoot, only time and more testing will tell.


Again, both pre-oem and post-oem filters are returning results well within the standards set by George Morrision. But, for the moment, pre-oem is king of the hill.


I have no more knowledge of this than anyone else who has been following this topic. I only compile the facts supported by test reports as provided by other filter users and by George Morrison. If you have a specific problem with any of my statements then please let us know.


Razzle Dazzle? I believe BROKERS. I would require hard evidence that he is being untruthfull about his trucks before I would defame him as a liar as you have insinuated.


What about the 10,000,000 sales of Bosch common rail injector systems world-wide - just hogwash? If you think so then be my guest! Go out and get a post-oem filter, and a lift pump, and a pre-lift pump filter and oil pressure switches to activate things, etc., etc.


But don't be surprised if pre-oem filters continue to out-perform yours, or, afer 60,000 miles, your lift pump fails and your truck stalls in the middle of nowhere, or, you lift pump pre-filter clogs and you stall.


The reason I like this forum compared to others is we may voice our dissatisfaction, and state our reasons for our dissatisfaction, about any product or service that we please. There are no sacred cash cows here that management has ulterior $$ motives to protect.


I have only reported the facts - period. If that is "dissing" a product then so be it.


Finally, I would never, ever, resort to defaming others, or their products, w/o proper evidence or cause as you have BROKERS.

There are not a dozen test results in yet. Both Racors are suppose to be 2 micron so it doesn't make any difference where they are. The fuel still gets filtered by both. The frame mounts are easy to do and service. They have the added advantage of a little less suction head. Too much suction head ( resistance to flow ) causes too much vacuum which causes cavitation (fuel vapor bubbles which some insist on calling outgasing) . If this is bad enough it causes drive ability problems. The bubbles carried through the charging pump (low pressure gear pump) collapsing with considerable force when exposed to load pressure at the outlet, and causing damage that will impair the pump operation and reduce its life. This is what it does to a hydraulic pump. How much damage it will do in our system if any will not be know by us for sure. The dealer is not going to tear the pumps down to inspect them. They will just put on a new one. The lift pumps have completely eliminated the cavitation/aeration/outgasing etc. Most of the above information came from one of my Sperry Vickers hydraulic manuals. Later! Frank B.

Frank,


Good points I'm trying to figure out what is better , but x is confusing me with statements like 'Go out and get a post-oem filter'. Would I not get a filter and then choose where to install it?


A handfull of results yet x is yelling king of the hill for pre oem installs after compiling very limited information. Probably worked at GM compiling data for the factory filter, and quit work after the first good test result. Sounds like hands on experience would not hurt here. Theres a difference between blind acceptance, being skeptical, and calling someone a liar. Again x demonstrates his tendency to jump to uninformed hasty conclusions, and branded me as calling someone a liar. Time for a blue pill refill.

I think it is safe to say that CAT, Racor, and Baldwin make great elements.


I also think it is safe to say that there are 2 basic installation methods: PRE-OEM and POST-OEM. without going out on a limb here, I'll say some people prefer one or the other and both provide a much higher quality of fuel than OEM.


Like many things in life where you locate your filter, be it pre or post, is a matter of personal opinion you base on factors that affect you and your truck. Some like POST, some like PRE...


When choosing a filter location, i would make your decesion based on others' experiences with a given location, not a "brand" of filter.


On a happier note the new plasma cut, one-piece, black powder-coated Nicktane.com brackets will be in tomorrow and I'll post a picture right here...


Nick


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gifEdited by: Diesel Power

Thanks for your explanation of cavitation. I do not dispute the phenomona of "cavitation" whatsoever. Allow me to add to your explanation that the application of pressure, (like in a pump or an injector), on these voids or airless cavities causes them to violently implode. And this implosion can erode metal components.


The application of pressure on air filled bubbles just makes smaller bubbles.


Still, my main questions about cavitition remain:


Given the fact that Bosch has been making diesel injectors and pumps since 1922, doesn't it seem reasonable to expect that Bosch is well aware of cavitition and has designed it systems with full regard to eliminating or minimizing the harmfull effects of cavitation?


Why, after ther installation of over 10,000,000 Bosch common rail systems in at least five major car/truck manuifacturers engines, is there not one single report to be found anywhere of a cavitation problem with Bosch's common rail injection sytem? To the contrary Dodge just abandoned their traditional injector supplier in favor of the Bosch common rail system - this after they had two years to evaluate it's performance in the Duramax.


And then there's the 800,000 combined miles of BROKERS' 2 trucks with only one injector failure between them, running on pre-oem 2 micron filtered fuel.


Yes cavitation damage can happen. But, is it happening in our Bosch common rail injection systems? So far, all we have are reports and indications of high reliability w/o a single report of cavitation problems.


In the face of such reliability why install a 60,000 mile lift pump on a world class 400,000 fuel system?


Believe me, if I see even one report of actual cavitation problems with our DMax fuel system, I will be the very first one in line for a fuel/air separator to rid my diesel fuel of air.


But I believe that Bosch has designed a system that anticipates air.Edited by: Mr X

I guess the thing that has always bothered me about this pre/post debate is the logic of installing the "better" filter first.


Seems to me logic should dictate using the stock filter to catch the big stuff and then using a finer filter afterwards to catch the smaller stuff that gets through. We already know that the OEM filter isn't that good so why not use it as a pre filter?? Then your "better" filter doesn't work as hard, should probably do a better job and last longer too.





Anyone have any input why this logic is flawed??

I don't think your logic is flawed. I agree with you but I'd like to add this. CAT runs the big filter first w/o a pre-filter of larger micron size, therefore running it pre-oem is still using it the way it was designed to operate. Both PRE and POST are excellent choices in my book. Just 2 ways to skin a CAT.... no pun intended..heh.

First Diesel--I agree with you on this one. I have talked with a good friend of mine, with 45 years as a diesel mechanic, about this topic and he says, that 99% of the diesels he has worked on have a primary, and then a secondary filter, with the secondary having the smaller micron filtertation. The DMax is so new he doesn't know much about the engine, but he still states, smaller micron filter should be behind the primary filter. But I don't want the air problems I have read about with the Mega filter, and I don't want the lift pump, so I recon I will have to go with the Cat, Racor, or Mega pre unless we find a way to install them post without the air problems.


I came over to this site to get information on this subject because the other site turned into an argument over this topic, rather than good positive information, and now Mr. X---HB is over here stateing the same stuff as he posted on the other site and it starts all over again, not good. Can't we just stick with the facts and not get into a pi##en contest over who's filter and location is best and try to figure out what is good for our truck. Thanks for any help on this subject.

Quite understandably in the Million mile rigs a screen-water seperator and 2um are used in series...
In our application recreation and commuting the ease of service with no concerns of downtime during schedule maintenance it could be classified as over kill in these diesels ...

Cummins in the B series use one filter in the Dodges that filter to 2um ... Correct me if I'm wrong ...

Mac

My personal experience as one who has had an OEM filter cut open after 12,000 miles and found much rust in the bottom of it ... for anyone who may demand proof http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif pictures are available on the net. I am convinced that I need post OEM filtration. I like the fact that the OEM filter has water separation capabilities but am apprehensive about the size particles (rust or otherwise) that, without a high quality Post OEM filter, could leave there and go directly into my truck's injectors. Recognizing the fact that there are multiple high quality filters that could be mounted Post OEM .... all of which would most certainly do a good job ... I chose a Mega (Baldwin) filter. I'll freely acknowledge that I do have to bleed it every now and then. When a lift pump is available, I have no qualms about installing one. I can't help but wonder when one of these companies is going to wise up and make a high quality filter that will fit the OEM mount .... seems like doing so would have a large market and help negate this issue ... Jim

I agree that finer filtering should be 2nd. However, I also believe that the post OEM fuel line should be left unmodified for warranty and potential air trapping reasons. As an engineer, whenever I solve one problem, in this case poorly filtered fuel that might lead to longevity problems, I cannot solve that potential problem by creating another problem (air trapping) that will cause immediate performance degradation or failure. In my studies on this issue I found many documents that talked about dirty fuel and the need to improve its cleanliness but nothing about cavitation. I do understand the potential ravages of cavitation (boat owner) but I deem it to be minimal or non-existant on the truck. To satisfy the above criteria on my truck I installed a Racor 30u filter followed by a Racor 2u filter, both pre OEM. At my next filter change (15K miles) I will replace the 30u with a 10u and see if it is able to go as long without problems. Dual filters is a little pricey but cheaper than 1 injector and priceless for piece-of-mind. As with many issues, there are no right or wrong answers. Evaluate and analyze the data present and make your choice.


Steve

Nick and hoot,


Thanks for unlocking this topic and my account so that I can post again. Too bad the pic and caption had to go though. Sorry to hear that the ignore poster option is not available. That option along with getting my account unlocked would have made my day. I'll try to be more pc the next time.


Frank,


Would you mind explaining why outgassing is an incorrect term to use to describe what is happening in the dmax fuel system? Is it incorrect to picture outgassing as a more limited form of cavitation? Or is the term outgassing just plain wrong to use here. I like the way you explain things so even a non compiler like me can understand.


Ragtop,


I'm pleased to hear that you agree with basic filtering principles but you lost me on the dirty fuel might cause problems part. You would think that someone that operates a train for a living would appreciate a clean diesel fuel supply. There is plenty of research on dirty fuel that clearly shows that the 5 to 10 micron particles cause the most damage to the injectors and pump. The same goes for cavitation in fuel systems. Try a google search to expand your views.

Lou,


Engineer, as in electronics design engineer, not railroad. I did, however, work 3 years as a switchman/brakeman for the Frisco railroad and can attest to the fact that the word clean should not be used in the same sentence as Railroad.


When I said "might" I was implying that there is no guarantee that the dirt will cause a problem in every case. There is some belief that GM redesigned the injectors with harder materials sometime in the 02 model year. Will the dirt cause problems? Probably, longterm. Will adding a filter post-OEM cause problems (air-entrapment)? Maybe. However, the effects of this problem...if you are one of the unlucky ones.. are immediate and fatal (truck will not run).


Obviously I believe that the fuel should be cleaner than the OEM filter can provide or I wouldn't have gone to the trouble of adding my filters. However, I will never know now if I really eliminated a problem (injector failure due to dirt) or not.Edited by: Ragtop

But I don't want the air problems I have read about with the Mega filter, and I don't want the lift pump, so I recon I will have to go with the Cat, Racor, or Mega pre unless we find a way to install them post without the air problems.


I came over to this site to get information on this subject because the other site turned into an argument over this topic, rather than good positive information, and now Mr. X---HB is over here stateing the same stuff as he posted on the other site and it starts all over again, not good.





First things first. The air. Thanks to the bad info posted at the other site by some people it's been taken way out of proportion.





I have a MEGA filter and it has air in it. It has never stopped me from driving. It doesn't seem to affect the engine at all. But I feel good knowing the air is getting trapped and I can bleed it. The filter is not causing the air. This has been proven by quite a few of the other members who did tests with clear hoses. The filter is catching it by it's design. Why is there no air in the other filters??? Because of their design. They don't have the long tube inside the filter that lets the MEGA catch it. Is this good??? I think so. I would rather bleed the filter than have it go through. As for no lift pump, I don't understand the big fear or concern here. As soon as there is an engineered kit available, I'm a technican and not a designer, I'm installing one. It's not a big scary thing and it's not that expensive and if it makes my truck run better so be it.





BTW, there are quite a few cases of people with no extra filter having air issues.





As for the last part of your post, amazing how it didn't take long to figure out who Mr. X is and why he's here now.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley6.gifEdited by: FirstDiesel

FirstDiesel:





Conventional thinking is that you would put a "coarse" filter in front of a "fine" filter, suggesting that post OEM is preferable. However, I think in this case pre-OEM makes more sense for the following reasons:


1. The 2 micron filters we are talking about here, such as the CAT 0749, are big filters designed for a flow rate much higher than that of a Duramax. These are big industrial engine type filters. Because the flow rate is low compared to what the filter is designed for, pressure drop across the filter should not be a major issue. And the total filter capacity should be much larger than the puny sized OEM filter.


2. The location of the 2 micron filter, as located by the Nicktane Bracket kit, makes it easier to change than the original OEM filter in the OEM location.


3. The price of a CAT 0749 filter is about the same as an OEM filter.


4. The OEM filter is now seeing fuel strained to 2 microns, so it should last much longer than would be the case if it were mounted before the 2 micron filter. It would seem to me, other than the water drain and primer, that the 15 micron OEM filter assembly becomes largely irrelevant as far as dirt filtering goes.


So in this instance, I think pre-OEM makes a heck of a lot of sense.

If I went pre OEM, I would probably change the OEM minimum 10,000 miles or less. I don't like that cheap filter hanging out there rusting any longer than neccessary.

The reason I say this is a Pre OEM might tend to cause you to leave the OEM in for a longer interval.

Most of us are on the same page with this topic. If our OEM filter was doing a good job and we were installing another filter it would be a 10 micron pre-OEM. I don't think it makes one bit of difference which way you go. Bosch designed our system to operate properly with one filter on the suction side without the use of a transfer pump. They did not factor in the added head that we chose to install. I understand that Dodge still uses a separate transfer pump? As far as cavitation, some of our modified systems have it. Later! Frank

Lou, I recently retired from a large Aerospace company. I was a mechanical foreman. Before that I was a line millwright. We had several hundred hydraulic systems. I worked on quite a few of them. I went to two Sperry-Vickers hydraulics schools back in Troy Michigan. My son is a ME with 15 years experience. His job is designing and building the 36K water cutters that wash out the space shuttle cases. Neither he or I ever heard the term "outgasing" before this topic started. It is in the dictionary though. There are a lot of places at our plant that they pull the air out of products with a vac pump. I guess you could call that outgasing but our people call it evacuating. Ragtop, what is your engineering degree in? Later! Frank

Excuse my filter ignorance here on this topic, but how come you cannot just replace the (supposedly inadequate) stock filter with a better one versus adding secondary filters and lift pumps and all that other jazz ?????? Seems like it would be a lot easier and less costly and accomplish the same job? Do other filters not fit on the stock filter housing???

FirstDiesel==I didn't mean to imply the Mega Filter was the cause of the Air, I was just saying that I don't have a air problem now, that I know of, because the truck always starts the first time, cold or hot, There might be air in the system, but as long as it starts and runs when the wife and grandkids have it out, I don't care. But you have read like I have about stalling and no start after the install of the Mega Filter, so this is the reason I stated "I don't want the air problems I have read with the Mega Filter" If it traps the air, that is fine, but some trucks don't start with that trapped air and I can't afford my truck not starting reqardless of what it is.


As for the lift pump, that is just something else to worry about with these trucks and I know need the extra stress.

Frank Blum,


The way I understand "outgassing" is when, under vacuum and heat, the fuel reaches it's pressure sensitive point and makes vapor/bubbles - it outgasses. Is this the first phase of cavitation?


TX-DMAX and FIRST DIESEL,


Folks have reported that the CAT filter, mounted post-oem, also traps air and has caused stalling and no starts.


FYI Chuntag95 reported that, although his Mega filter trapped air, clear hose testing showed post-Mega filter bubbles indicating that it was also letting air pass.


FIRST DIESEL,


Why am I here?Edited by: Mr X

JEBar,


I did not see a link in your sig or profile for the rusty filter you mentioned (not to be misconstructed as calling you a liar). Moderator hoot mentioned rusting filter. Is this common?


Frank,


Thank you for that explanation gained from years of actual experience rather than compost piling. It was not necessary to prove your qualifications. Ragtop replied that he is an electronics design engineer - not a train engineer as I incorrectly implied in my response, silly me.


Others may ask why am I here, and I agree.

I have heard some say they will trash the OEM filter as soon as they were out of warranty. Most dealers think two filters are OK. I suspect GM does also but I am not sure what they would say if we went in with a Cat in place of the OEM. Later! Frank

Fuel filter fuel analysis results posted on TDP indicate the best filtration thus far have been achieved with a pre-OEM filter and the OEM filter.








Mr. X huh. After this first statement, it wasn't hard to realize who's talking up pre-oem blah blah, and also trashing a very good and well respected vendor. Why the change in name? Who you foolin? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

Frank,


Electrical. I specialize in embedded real-time firmware and digital logic for avionics test equipment (ARINC 429, Mode S, TCAS, etc).


Steve

Smitty,


You should know by now that such flattery will get you no where.http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif


For the benefit of new members here, I have posted a compilation of all the information I have learned about fuel filtration and fuel filter vendors: the good, the bad and the ugly.


These new members could benefit by your either discussing this information, or, by rebutting any of this information in a factual manner. But, no one benefits from a personal peeing contest.


Kindly allow me to ask that if you do not have anything positive to contribute to this thread , then at least spare us the negativity.


I see this is only your 2nd post on this forum and you are already making negative personal comments.

Cavitation = vapor bubbles


Mr X, There is one step in cavitation. Cavitation! There is nothing in the bubbles. No air! Nothing! That is why they call it cavitation. I posted an extensive definition of cavitation right out of my hydraulic manual over on the dieselpage. You read it along with everyone else. I am sorry I ever tried to teach this subject. I taught a hydraulic troubleshooting course to several groups of Millwrights and heavy equipment mechanics a few years ago. Everyone of them knew what happen when you plugged the inlet filter or had an air leak. Later! Frank

Frank Blum,


Thanks for the explanation about cavitation.


But if "outgassing" is not related to cavitation then what was all this concern and mention of "outgassing" over nearly the past 5 months by Kennedy, a64pilot, chuntag95, Manfred, a bear and NWDmax?


Kennedy even mentioned "outgassing" again today. Have we been led by some experts to understand the same problem, but by two different names?


Or, in lieu of a single report of failure due to cavitation, has this been some sort of cavitation false alarm?


Hmmmm

I guess they can call it what ever they want as long as they fix it. I started the this whole cavitation thing trying to get everyone using the right term. John, a bear, hoot, cd-max and a few others understand the difference between cavitation and aeration. I know George Morrison does for sure. I think a bear gets credit for the first to use the term "outgasing". It is something that he uses in in job I think. He hasn't been around for awhile. All the talk the last few months was how to deal with the no starts, stalling, priming etc. If Dodge didn't have a transfer/charge pump they would be having the same problem. (maybe) Later! Frank

I've only scanned the earlier posts, so forgive me if I'm raising old hash. I recognize that theoretically having the coarse filter before the fine filter is the correct and preferred installation. However, the results reported so far suggest that the pre-OEM installation performance equals, or perhaps even exceeds that of the post-OEM systems. Since it is that result I'm seeking, I'm willing to sacrifice the more artful practice to achieve the same result, albeit in a more primitive fashion. To some extent this argument reminds me of the old story about the student of Eastern mysticism who, while sitting in a boat floating some ways offshore practicing his mantra, found himself in difficulty and couldn't remember the enchanted phrase. Spying his guru meditating on the beach, the student leapt out of the boat and ran across the water and asked his teacher "how's that go again?" The point, of course, is that sometime the miracles happen even when you don't hold your mouth right and strum the right chords.

The other issue frequently (incessantly) discussed is cavitation. I don't claim to know what it is, but an article posted by 56Nomad on the Diesel Page seemed to suggest, complete with pictures, that the phenomonon occurs at the injectors as a result of the sharp angles inherent in their design, regardless of whether we suck some of the gas out of the fuel or not. If that's the case, is it possible that, as has been suggested by someone before, our preoccupation with the subject as an adjunct to fuel filtration is just an excuse to argue about nothing?

Fire away.

TC

Reminds me of when Pres. Bush went fishing with the Pope and the Pope's cap blew off out of the boat and into the water.


Bush jumped out and walked on the water and retrieved it for the Pope.


Next day's headline:


"Bush Can't Swim!"

Here's the link to David Schmidt's research page (dated 1996) that 56 Nomad found, that describes cavitation in injectors.


http://www.erc.wisc.edu/~dschmidt/


By the looks of it, if Bosch hasn't figured it out, there isn't anything that we can do at theinjector level. According to David Schmidt, if teh injector uses a design that forces highly pressurized fuel around sharp angles, it's going to cavitate.


As Tsckey says, "regardless of whether we suck some of the gas out of the fuel or not."

I don't particularly care for the term "outgassing" as it's being used here. Outgassing for me, is what plastics, rocket fuel, and some other materials undergo when volatile compounds boil away over time. Ever notice that oily film all over the inside of the windshield (Ford plastics seem to be especially bad at this)? That's from "outgassing".


I believe what we have is simply "entrained" air. My, just look at how diesel foams up in the fill tube. Did you ever fill a glass of water from a faucet with a real fine aireator on it? It's cloudy with microscopic (entrained) bubbles of air. Let it sit a bit and voila, the air dissipates by rising to the top and disappearing into the air.


I believe this is exactly what's happening in these large filters. The flow rate is finally slow enough that entrained air is given a chance to rise to the top. This is also aided by a vacuum environment and especially post OEM. A post-CAT-install trapped some air until the head was tilted a bit to permit the air to just pass on through nearly immediately. I believe the problem with the MEGA is that the outlet tube lets the entire top of the filter housing fill with air before the bubble finally extends down to the bottom of the tube and in one big gulp, the system loses prime.


Now, is entrained air a problem? I doubt it. Microscopic bubbles when compressed to 23,000 plus psi by the injector pump become even more microscopic. When these micro-micro bubbles of air exit the injector into somewhere around 100-260 psi (assuming 18:1 compression ratio X 15 psi of boost) they simply expand to become part of the larger bubble of intake air that is being compressed. I'm not sure why some folks think cavitation is happening here? Does cavitation occur at the back sides of the impellar blades in the high pressure pump? Perhaps, but again I doubt if that's a problem at these low flow rates. Stainless steel boat propellars easily stopped their problems in this area.


What's important is getting the dirt out!! Additional filtration is a good idea whether pre or post OEM and I've sure seen a lot of good ideas and excellent installs for doing this. Pre OEM does seem to render the OEM superfluous (unless the dadgummed thing rust or falls apart), and we need that primer pump!


I'm still fence sitting on this issue since I do a lot of towing in the winter time. I really like Nick's install, but fear when it's covered in a block of freezing slush that the fuel will gel! Heck, I'm thinking about a PRE OEM Racor S-series with a heater on it mounted up in the corner of the pickup box.


Now on the other hand, if Racor would come up with a better 2 micron to fit the OEM mount, we could all stop fussing and fretting about this.


Keep up the good work folks. Like Johnny Five in Short Circuit says, "Need More Input!"


George, Rocket Scientist <= no Sh**http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley14.gif

Lou Furr ...


Sorry I didn't post this link with my original post. To be completely honest, it is about all I can do to type on one of these machines ... posting pictures and such is still somewhat beyond my meager abilitieshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif


My OEM filter was sent to Mdrag (moderator on the Diesel Page) to be cut open. He posted it at:


http://community.webshots.com/album/78464371PcGaFz


I do not know just how big of a problem finding a large amount of rust in an OEM filter is. I do know mine was not the first, nor has it been the last to have been found. As stated in my original post. The rust is on the dirty fuel side of the filter and I had no ideal it was there ... "water in fuel" warning light has never come on. We know the OEM filters can let particals larger than 2 microns pass on to the injectors and after seeing what was going on in a filter on my truck, I have become convinced that post OEM additional filtration is the best for my needs. I fully realize that there can be rust in any filter but if it starts in my Mega filter, hopefully no particals larger than 2 microns can get to my truck's injectors http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley14.gif ... JimEdited by: JEBar

Looks like we've moved channels and still get the same program from the same person.


To those that know HB it's clear why you are here Mr. X.Edited by: FirstDiesel

I don't pretend to be an expert on something I don't fully understand. Here's what i'm getting out of pages and pages of posts about this cavitation/outgassing/entrained air etc. : NO ONE KNOWS! No one has any concrete evidence that injectors in the fuel system are experiencing cavitation. There is no one, as of now, looking closely at failed injectors to see what the problem really is. How long will we keep going beating this poor old dead horse? Alot of good information has come out of these discussions so far, but I think it might be time to move on until we know for sure.


Anyone who had added extra filtration is in much better shape than someone only running the OEM fuel filter. There are quite a few good set-ups out there, any of which wil do wonders for your fuel system. There has been much debate over pre-OEM/post-OEM/lift pumps.


I think all pre-OEM set-ups, such as Nick's filter, are doing a great job, are easy to service, and show absolutely no driveability problems. Some are concerned about fuel gelling in this location, and the possibility of road debris kicking up into the filter & hoses.


Post-OEM set-ups seem to be a bit more involved to install, can have some driveability issues, but make more sense as far as filtration order (coarse filter to fine filter). Also, if you're concerned about the OEM unit's quality (not saying you should be), you may sleep a bit better knowing there is another filter to catch anything that might get by.


I think it comes down to personal preference....and I'm not pushing anyone's product....because they are all good if you ask me.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif Get the info about each system, call the people who manufacture them, talk to them about their product, and then draw your own conclusion as to which direction you want to take.


Off to work....fun, fun, fun...

Cavitation as I understand it in mechanical/hydraulic systems typically refers to the creation of voids (air pockets) due to sudden low pressure conditions.

Most often created by moving structurs such as pump impellors, boat props, flexing of combustion engine cylinder walls, where a liquid with dissolved or entrained air is present.


Outgassing I believe occurs in different forms. I know plastics outgas vapors naturally almost all the time. Heat them up and it increases.

I'm not sure how liquids outgassing air in a general vacuum falls into cavitation but I can see how it can be referred to as a non-destructive form of cavitation. Non-destructive meaning since the bubbles are forming in a large volume area, they are not causing any physical material removal. In our case that may be occurring within the entire length of the fuel line depending on where a restriction that raises vacuum is introduced.

I think it's important to study the physical rules of diesel fuels properties and at what temps and Hg it "releases" entrained or dissolved air per documented automotive technical references. These references have been made available and I think we can all agree that if we keep the fuel within the proper hg and temps, we have most of the situation under control.

What is left is leaks in the system and/or poorly designed flow paths that could cause a localized pressure difference that does not get detected when measuring the system temp and Hg as a whole. In other words, a boat prop may be cavitating at the prop blade but the Hg of the ocean is 0.

The head of a fuel filter could create this type of localized cavitation zone. That's not saying any of these brands do it, just that the engineering behind them should take that into account.

My main point is the system should be analyzed and compared to proven technical limits. If it is operating outside those parameters, the source should be found and the system redesigned.

Lift pump ..... I think its a good idea. I think the benefits outway the negatives.

I don't have one but that doesn't mean I don't need one. My system may be drawing air out at the high pressure first stage lift pump. What happens after that is anyones guess but I feel if you get the pressure close to the same on both sides of the OEM lift pump, you shouldn't have any worries.

On the rust thing.... som eguys have cut their OEM filters open and found water in the bottom had started rusting in the inside of the filter. I looked into a brand new unused OEM and saw the beginnings of corrosion. The only saviour here is that's on the dirty side of the filter.

Hoot ....


"On the rust thing.... some guys have cut their OEM filters open and found water in the bottom had started rusting in the inside of the filter. I looked into a brand new unused OEM and saw the beginnings of corrosion. The only saviour here is that's on the dirty side of the filter."


I really appreciate you relaying the above info. I am going to try and get an unused filter that was purchased the same day as the one that was badly rusted sent off to Mdrag to be cut open. I've been wondering if the OEM filters are designed/built in some manner that lends themselves to rusting. Your confirmation above would seem to indicate that this could be the case. A second concern is the reported end caps in OEM filters that have been reported to come loose. If I understand correctly, in a filter where this happens, dirty/unfiltered fuel could go directly to the injectors. This leads to the question, just how wide spread of a problem do you think this is?


Jim

New filter corrosion.....

Have a look.....

OEM along side Racor S90R2 Cartridge ... (http://www.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/fuel_filter_comparo/FILTER_COMPARO.html)

I read many posts of guys cutting their filters open and only one instance of the bottom plate becoming dislodged. If that does happen..... post OEM is the only way to save the system from the deluge of dirt that could follow.Edited by: hoot

gwmayes,


What you are saying makes sense: Cavitation is airless voids like you can imagine behind a boat prop; Outgassing is bubbles containing vapor/gas from entrained air coming out of solution.


Then one step further: The implosion of the airless voids (cavities in the fuel), is destructive to materials not designed to handle it.


While the compression of the air bubbles just makes smaller harmless bubbles.


In other words, those air/gas bubbles are not causing or contributing to cavitation. They just get pressurized back into the little bubbles from which they originated. It's just the airless voids, the cavities, that are potentially harmful?


So it sounds like it was a false alarm after all. The air found in the stock systems is OK. And by "false alarm" I sincerely do not mean that anyone intentionally misled us.


FIRST DIESEL,


I am here for the same reason I was at TDP: To share information.


Only here we are not expected to kowtow to vendors and discouraged from expressing honest dissatisfiaction and constructive criticism.


In this way, if vendors and their friends can refrain from taking such constructive criticism personally, they can improve their products and services and we all benefit.


Also at this place I do not believe that "trashing" anyone - defaming someone w/o evidence - will be tolerated; Especially if if he/she is trashed in retaliation by vendors and the vendors friends for voiceing constructive criticism or for disagreeing with vendors. In other places such little vendor/member juntas discouraged such constructive criticism


I do not believe in kowtowing to any man.


So allow me to request, once again, that at this new place, you knock off the negative personal innuendo that you may have become so accustomed using at other places and discuss diesel stuff like everyone else.

Mr. X

Airless voids? I don't think so. Show me some scientific data that backs that up. You are suggesting that the liquidless cavities are empty like outer space...

That means if a tree falls.....


"kowtowing" ??? what the heck is that? Forget the vendor BS. I say let the end users describe their experiences with the products first hand.

Edited by: hoot

Hoot,


I think Frank Blum describes the airless bubbles with more authority than I can.


I guess when air bubble recompress they don't vilently umplode like cavities.


Could you explain why we need lift pumps to deal with air bubbles, if in fact, these bubbles are not causing any cavitation problems?





Cavitation = vapor bubbles


Mr X, There is one step in cavitation. Cavitation! There is nothing in the bubbles. No air! Nothing! That is why they call it cavitation. I posted an extensive definition of cavitation right out of my hydraulic manual over on the dieselpage. You read it along with everyone else. I am sorry I ever tried to teach this subject. I taught a hydraulic troubleshooting course to several groups of Millwrights and heavy equipment mechanics a few years ago. Everyone of them knew what happen when you plugged the inlet filter or had an air leak. Later! Frank





First Diesel asked a question and I gave him an answer. Smitty accused me of trashing a vendor when I simply described my experience with a vendor.


You have your reasons for being and I mine: Too much vendor BS was tolerated at other places. That's all.Edited by: Mr X

Frank Blum wrote:
"There is nothing in the bubbles. No air! Nothing!"

I'm thinking.... have we come up with a method of creating the perfect vacuum here on earth?


<font size="4">Suction Cavitation occurs when the pump suction is under a low pressure/high vacuum condition where the liquid turns into a vapor at the eye of the pump impeller. This vapor is carried over to the discharge side of the pump where it no longer sees vacuum and is compressed back into a liquid by the discharge pressure. This imploding action occurs violently and attacks the face of the impeller. An impeller that has been operating under a suction cavitation condition has large chunks of material removed from its face causing premature failure of the pump.</font>

VAPOR BUBBLES
<font size="5">VAPOR BUBBLES</font>

vapor.... Any substance in the gaseous, or aeriform, state, the condition of which is ordinarily that of a liquid or solid.Edited by: hoot

gwmayes,

I can understand the concerns expressed by those who tow in the high latitudes about Nick's filter becoming covered with ice in the winter. There would not be a problem from the front side; the thing is practically armour plated. I shielded the backside of mine very easily with a piece of plastic and a few minute's time. As for the cold itself, I don't know. The CAT filter head is not heated, but I would not expect problems at temperatures down to about zero. Below that maybe a little knitted booty would do the trick.

TChttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif

Tsckey,


Last fall on a trip up to Ft. Collins.... I saw the weather maps, shouldn't have hit the road, but I did anyways. Just about the harriest trip of my life. Snow drifts, slush, wind, my wheel wells were solid ice from all the way up around the filler neck to clear up in behind the bumper with about two inches of clearance around the tires. Should have taken pictures. Solid! I wouldn't have even been able to see a CAT filter up in there. I'm serious when I say that I just may stick a filter up in the corner of the pickup box. I'm not planning on putting a toolbox there. Heck, even if I did, I would put it inside the tool box.





Mr X,


Yeh I should have added that the clever addition of a lift pump simply puts the fuel back to about atmospheric pressure and the entrained air does not float to the top in the filters. It simply stays dispersed in the fuel and passes right on through to the injectors.


Hoot,


Believe it or not, but cavitation bubbles can come pretty close to being a pretty good vacuum, ie, nearly nothing in them. However, as you note it's usually some of the fluid itself in a particular vapor phase based on "how good" the vacuum is. When those little puppies collapse they do so at supersonic speeds. What you have then is this really, really high velocity liquid etching away at whatever surface is nearby.


I was really surprised to hear that GM (or Bosch) actually changed the material in the injectors beginning in about mid '01 production. Good news for some of us. They must have been running some pretty serious life studies around the time the Duramax was introduced to realize so quickly they needed to harden up the parts. Unfortunately, they were probably doing this with super clean fuel or by now we would have seen some changes with that OEM Racor. If GM is losing a lot of $ doing injector replacements under warantee, you can bet that a change in that OEM filter will be coming pretty quickly.


Come on Racor, the data is already in (here at least)! We need a better filter http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif

gwmayes,


Thanks, I'll be watching to see how my CAT does up in the mountains this winter.


Some final, final, final questions about cavitation.


I think gwmayes and Frank Blum are helping us non-experts get some resolution here.


Does entrained air, in or out of solution (as in air bubbles in clear lines), cause cavitation?


I am sure that totally air free fuel would be more efficient. And an fuel/air separator may add a couple of hp and mpg's, but, will running w/o one using normal diesel with air cause cavitation damage to our systems - even when the air comes out of solution?


What damage would a lift pump prevent?


I see reports of guys running comp juice and quad with modded trannies getting low 13's and high 12 sec. 1/4 miles, w/o lift pumps.


Would a lift pump improve their 1/4's?Edited by: Mr X

So am I right to say that the "outgassing" cavitation, rush to buy a lift pump, was a false alarm?Edited by: Mr X

Wow ~ there is a lot of info on the subj here. I had avoided it on TDP as it was complicated and feelings were running high w/possible undercurrents of motives. I'm no expert so I find personal benefit in the factual discussions.


For myself, I can see we try to remedy an OEM situation that most of us wish not to disturb due to warranty implications/risks. Its apparent we need a better OEM filter but the General isn't going to help. So, we add additional filtration that w/exception of water removal, the OEM is not even there. THEN we try to rationalize the courser 'chicken' should come before the finer 'egg'. Which is nice for rational discussions but keeping in mind the intent is to get effective 2micron filtration and either way wins. Also, keeping in mind the OEM filter still needs our attention due to the red (rust?) residue some have reported as well as warranty requirements.


This thread indicates a lot of good folks have done a lot of work for the rest of us to act upon as we understand it. How else could this thread have run 7pgs is so short of time. Truly amazing Hats off to all who have apparently poured their sweat and blood into this. I love this site as it seems to be a truly 'open' forum.Edited by: ShumDit

I've read this whole thing (I think), and I tend to agree with gsxr1216, who posted what I quoted, 3 pages ago!


Is this not something that some manufacturer is working on? Wouldn't it make sense to just put a CAT size 2mic filter in place of the original stock one? I haven't looked at it all that carefully, so I don't know if there's room in there or not.


I thought I remember reading omewhere that the filter is unique to the Dmax. Is the reason that no other manufacturer is stepping upto the plate and doing something different???? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif


CADman_ks


Excuse my filter ignorance here on this topic, but how come you cannot just replace the (supposedly inadequate) stock filter with a better one versus adding secondary filters and lift pumps and all that other jazz ?????? Seems like it would be a lot easier and less costly and accomplish the same job? Do other filters not fit on the stock filter housing???

There is still not any other replacement filters available.

gsxr1216 wrote:

GSX has a great point.. Why can you just upgrade you filter to a bigger one.. I'm going down this week to ask a few diesel shops.. I see much bigger filters around

From stevehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley25.gif Edited by: smartfix

Interesting topic, reminds me of TDP! First, there is no other manuafacturs of filters to fit our OEM head. Thats why nobody has just replaced with a better filter.


Second- At this point, I think that we are missing the important stuff, getting to personal and everybody standing in a line facing the wind with full bladders, once somebody starts leaking, its gets messy...Clean fuel is the no 1 reason for all this discussion, but dont forget the other causes of injector problems....leaking at the body, leaking return line seals, I dont care whos filter you install, you wont fix that. GM knows that the early injectors were prone to fail, ever notice that 95% of injector issues were on 01 trucks?


If you want to talk about outgassing, lets meet at the local Mexican resturaunt and have some wet burritos. I think we will have properly defined it and know quite a bit about it at the end of the night. Cavitation? fancy term used by me dentist cause I eat too much sugar and drink too much Coke...I dont know who said it, but if it was an issue, dont you think Bosch would have done something by now? I often wonder if big wigs at GM and Bosch sit here and read this stuff and laugh there a$$ off at all the yuppies ( my self included) try and fix for a few hundred bucks what they have spent millions on to get it where it is..I think if you add filtration, your doing your part. If you dont like where the vender chooses to mount it, move it. Most of us have the ability to fabricate something to mount it. Guys in the south arnt worried about snow and guys in the North are worried about the satallite dish loosing signal during the Miss America pageant. I recieve countless emails asking my opinion on the whole filtration topic, I tell them why its a good idea and they all want to know which one to buy, I have NEVER reccommended a particular product, only told them what is available that I know off. I tell them how I like to see something mounted (post FWIW) and let them decide from there. The important part is the added filtration, not supporting a vender. I cant think of anything else to say so I will go and check new posts on other forums and stop back laterhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif

More filtration is better. I picked one, am happy about it, and am able to let it go.

Beating the topic to death isnt good and starting off the new board with a tired somewhat hostile debate is counterproductive.

More filtration is better. I picked one, am happy about it, and am able to let it go.

Beating the topic to death isnt good and starting off the new board with a tired somewhat hostile debate is counterproductive.


BINGO!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!

AMEN http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif

All lot of highly knowledgable folks chipped in with a lot of good info and produced a very positive outcome:


A week ago at another forum we were in the midst of trying to solve "outgassing" and potential "cavitation" problems. Folks were lining up to get lift pumps.


Now, thanks to wide open discussion and minimum censorship at this site, these experts were free to cut straight to the chase and eliminate "outgassing" and "cavitation" as problems that we, the Duramax owners, should have to be concerned with.


I, for one, am relieved that except for poor oem filtration, our trucks fuel systems have gotten a new, clean bill of health.


I see that as a positive ending to an informative thread.


Therefore, I beg to disagree that this thread has been counterproductive.

He he dont take it wrong. The thread hasnt been. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif

Some of the "facing into the wind with full bladders" as dmaxallitech mentioned got a little carried away in my opinion, but thats my thought. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

Well said Eric!!!!!!!


Josh

Finally---Someone has said something that makes allot of sense. I didn't know they had Mexican Restaurants in Grand Rapids MI http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif


Thanks Eric for the input that should put this topic to rest. Well Said.

There is still not any other replacement filters available.





OK let me add ignorance question part II, if nobody make a direct replacement for the stocker then why does someone not make a adapter plate to bolt to the stock filter housing so that a better/different filter can be used still in the stock location, still seems a hell of a lot easier than adding all this other jazz??? I know they make adapter for oil filters for many vehicles, and oil relocation kits, seems like a adapter would be REAL easy, maybe i will have to design one up this week!!! Plus if you were worried about the dealer trips you just unscrew it and put the stocker back on, easy job IMOEdited by: gsxr1216

gs-- I have often thought of that myself, but then thought the other way as too why its not a good idea. Believe it or not, we need that sock-in-a-can there. The oem head contains the fuel heater, the primer button and the filter contains a WIF sensor, Unless somebody can/has come up with a fitting replacement of ALL of that, it wont be benificial.

Might have just been faster to do a cut and paste from TDPhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

An adaptor would add thinkness and I'm not sure the space is available below the filter.


JessHD, this is a new channel with the same program and the same arguing by the same person. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

No, FirstDiesel, it's not the same program and same arguemnts at all.


Thanks to Nick for a free an open place without folks with $$ ulteritor motives, and thanks to hoot, gmmayes, Eric and Frank Blum, for startintg this thread and weighing-in with important info,


We've got postive resolution to the "outgasing" and "cavitation" questions - questions that were being resolved at TDP as week ago with folks lining up to get lift pumps.


It wasn't any fun for many to reach these conclusions, precisely because some here have brought a chip on their shoulder from TDP to this place - as you said, same personal crap, different channel.


You've only made 13 posts here. How many of those have been nothing but negative personal cheap shots?


Let it go! Let's make this a fun place and get away from the other places' practices of character assassination, etc.


BTW I see you have a post-oem Mega filter with no stalls, months and thousands of miles with no bleeding. That's great!


This is information that those considering an aftermarket filter should be able to find in a thread entitled, "aftermarket filtration,"and not have to wade through wise guy cracks. Edited by: Mr X

Mr. X





Make the effort to do what you preach and accuse others of doing.





Your teaching and conculsions are not gospel and in many cases actually have more bad info in them than correct info.





As for arguing with you I will take the same attitude others took else where and just ignore you in the future.

I just posted all the information that I learned elsewhere and folks with real expertise were kind enough to contribute their expertise and help straighten it out.


Hey if you want to get a lift pump and oil pressures switches and relays, and an additional filter to protect the lift pump, be my guest!


I, for one, do not now see the need to put a 60,000 lift pump on a world class, 225,000 fuel system.


Those that are considering this should be forewearned that Kennedy, a diesel parts vendor and enthusiast, stated that Bosch's position is that a lift pump is not necessary nor recommended.

I have followed the post on the diesel page and now here on the diesel place and find it hard to believe the the rage continues.........X, I guess I have a tough time following your rather quick claims to expertise along with some of your references to seemingly mythical 800,000 mile posters or imposters. Things seem to get taken out of context for your benefit. Bottom line is that cleaner fuel, is the issue whether preoem postoem or pumped, and how you get it is your business. I appreciate the people(kennedy,abear,nick,chris,jplock,hoot,george ,and others) that have actually experimented with these problems their work has made the choices easy for the rest of us. Vincent Edited by: TurboVinnie

Looking for away ....


I think at that last post above would be a good time to end this as I see no resolve and we all can only agree to disagree ....Before it gets personal ..


No offense to anyone .....


If something "NEW" and informative comes forward please bring it forward ...


Happy Filtering .....


Peace we're outa here ...


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif