I apologize if this is a duplicate, but I have read close to 150 posts about the different tuners and am completely 'gun shy' at this point. If some of you could please help me understand some things I would be very grateful.

From my reading, it seems that a majority of people like the Edge. However, I have an '05 LLY and understand there are some 'bugs' with it. I am not in a hurry, and it's worth it to wait for a correction if that is the right option.

First, if I am not mistaken, the Edge just manipulates the ECM signal w/o 'rewriting' the program - which I believe is what the Predator does? Does this make it less likely to detect by the dealers scanning equipment? Is the Edge even detectable at all since it does not actually reprogram?

Next, w/o the Attitude, how difficult is it to change power levels? And with the Attitude, is it just the push of a button?

I am not interested at all in beefing up my Allison. Don't have the spare change, and not sure of the need. I don't plan to race or anything, I just want to have the extra power mostly when towing or that occasional 'Choke on This Smoke' :ro) stoplight action! Besides, I have a buddy that works for GM Powertrain, and he claims that the Allison can pretty much handle anything that can be thrown at it.

Finally, what is this limping tranny issue. What exactly does it do when it limps? Is it easily corrected w/o the dealer like maybe just waiting for temps to come down? Most importantly, what conditions cause it to limp? Do you really have to be beating her hard for a significant duration?

Like most of you, I thought I would stay stock, but I am not sure how much longer I can hold out! I really want to see what she is capable of!:grd:

Thanks for your help!

D/A Power,
I to, read so much and I am gun shy. I hope this thread gets some of the people to reply. We are just waiting to the bugs get worked out on the Edge, hopefully.

D/A Power,
I to, read so much and I am gun shy. I hope this thread gets some of the people to reply. We are just waiting to the bugs get worked out on the Edge, hopefully.

What he said. I've been too afaird to ask it.

That's the problem with this place, so much information! :)

You are correct in how the Edge and Predator make their power. The Edge box simply plugs in and manipulates things to get more power. The Predator actually rewrites certain code to make power and stores your stock code in the handheld programmer. Neither will leave traces that they've been installed so long as you don't set codes (which you shouldn't). If you use them on high power and limp the tranny for some reason it will set a code which is detectable by the dealer, but this is not common unless you're a power junkie like some of us.

Edge is having problems with the LLY units here and there. I've seen it run good on some and not so good on others. I have one and it's not quite refined enough yet (power isn't there sometimes and it's there other times). I'm sure Edge will release a version soon that should fix some of these problems.

The Predator is great for the money. If you don't plan to buy the Edge w/Attitude for the features I'd suggest the Predator. It's not having the problems that the Edge box is and it's smooth and powerful. It can also be used as a scanner for reading and deleting codes (something the Edge box won't do) which makes it well worth the money.

If you want the Attitude features (which are great) I'd hold out for an updated version which should be out soon. For someone that isn't looking to race and would rather use it for towing the Edge with Attitude is definitely the hot ticket. It allows you to change power levels on the fly at the push of the button. Without it it's a sequence that requires the truck to be stopped (pain the butt compared to the Attitude).

The Allison can take a lot of power and abuse. At some point though some things need to be done to it to make it hold the hp/tq some of us are making. With the right modifications the Allison can handle a great deal of power but from the factory it can't "handle anything thrown at it" so your buddy isn't entirely correct.

Limping the Allison is not a good thing. It'll go into limp mode if it gets too hot (don't know the exact temp) or it slips (engine output speed is greater than trans output). These are the two most common but there may be other reasons I'm not aware of. Normally neither of these would be concern to a normal driver. Under heavy towing conditions I guess there would be the possibility of either but I've never seen it. When it goes into limp mode it goes to 4th gear and stays there until reset. I've always had a scanner with me that could reset but I know there is a way to do it without one (someone else will have to chime in with that though). The truck is still driveable it just has no power.

There are also a couple other options now but these are the two most common so far.

I was waiting for the Edge also, but decided to go with the Predator. I also installed a SPA gauge today EGT & Boost. Very happy with the Predator, I have it set at 65 HP setting,plenty of power. When I tow I will switch to 40 HP, should only take a couple of minutes. What really helped with the install of the EGT & boost was all the help on this fourm thanks everyone including Kennedy and all of the searches on anything you want to find out.

When in doubt, buy both! I prefer the edge because the pyro and boost gauge are right in the attitude. Predator is nice also, has an USB port so you can download new tunes FOR FREE!

I've also heard rumors edge will have a GPS available with the attitude by the end of the year.

Awesome guys, Thanks for the info - it is really helpful. This place does have too much info, but that is better than the alternative. Besides, the best thing about it is that when newbies like me have questions, everyone is willing to pitch in and help! :cool: Thanks Again! For now, it looks like I might hold out for that new edge due in June with the GPS etc. Hopefully they will have the LLY version pretty well stable by then. Plus I really like the idea of not having to reprogram the PCM and be able to adjust on the fly.

Can I use my same pyrometer fitting for my Autometer gages for the Edge pyro? I know I will have to disconnect the gage to hook up the Edge, but I don't have a problem just reconnecting it for dealer trips when I remove the Edge. Besides it beats having to explaing an empty fittting.;)
So if I am not mistaken, the Allison does not need to be 'pumped up' to handle what a daily driver and RV puller will give it with any of the Edge settings? Also, if I recall from earlier readings, you do not want to tow on edge levels above 2? What it the reason for this - do the trans temps rise too high? It seems like towing would be a good reason to use the higher power.

Thanks again guys - This has again proven to be the best site on the web!:ro)

I too started out with your worries and had similar goals. After much research I went with the Predator. Very please with the results. Much cheaper. Had plenty of money left over for an gauge set. Reprogramming the PCM is no biggie (I was worried). Edge is cool, but didn't want the bugs. I don't need all the different power levels either. Don't forget that the Allsion has some built in protection. After seeing how the Allison shifted terrible upon the first HP increase (until it learned) I wouldn't want to be continually changing HP settings as on the Edge (just my .02). Noone seems to be complaining about the Predator. I like the diagnostic also for keeping an eye on the balance rates. In the time it takes to remove the edge for a dealer visit, you can re-set the PCM back to stock with the Predator.

Hope this helps.

One thing to remember with a LLY truck donot exceed 50 Hp or 100 ft/lb if you want the Allison to live a long life. Power settings above this will shorten the life by 10 fold if not put the transmission into limp mode nether of which is good for it.

One thing to remember with a LLY truck donot exceed 50 Hp or 100 ft/lb if you want the Allison to live a long life. Power settings above this will shorten the life by 10 fold if not put the transmission into limp mode nether of which is good for it.


Where did that come from? I'm sure many will disagree.

From your list of requirements, I'd say the best tune would be the TTS Tow for LLY's. It's still the most trouble-free of the units I've run, and has the best drivibility.

I put more than 15,000 miles on it towing, racing, and commuting, in many different conditions, and it was at least as good as the stock program, if not better, in all aspects.

You won't have to worry about limping, 1093's, surging, or doing any other mods to make it work. Put it in and enjoy. After a short while, you will forget it's there except you get to your destination quicker.

If you were racing or sled pulling, my suggestion would be different. But with just that tune and no other changes you will run door to door with a Silverado SS, and go up grades without downshifting with medium (10,000lb) tow weights.

About limping? I never limped while running TTS Tow, and I drive pretty hard. Opinions vary what level of HP limping occurs at. It certainly can happen at 100rwhp, and doesn't happen at 50rwhp. On my truck the TTS Tow showed 65rwhp on a Dynojet (311rwhp/246rwhp stock), and my trans looked OK when it was upgraded.

Are there other tuners that will fit the bill? Yes. But the premium tune IMO is the TTS. Ask anyone who runs one. See if you can find any complaints. So far, I've not heard of any.

waiting for the new edge-standing by-love these posts-

Where did that come from? I'm sure many will disagree.
It's called thousands of miles testing and developing products for the Allison transmission. Endless hours on a dyno looking at what point the transmission begins to slip under different conditions. Then follow that up with customers who use our products and report back failures down the road. Our base test for a Tow power level is 10,000 miles of testing then tear down the transmission to check for wear. That's where it comes from. :)

To make a blanket statement like that to a guy looking for info is IMHO is wrong without providing appropriate inforamation and listing all the variables involved. He's not looking to drive it hard, just a little extra HP. There are many here who have never come close to limping their training with a 65 HP tune loaded. They are everyday schmucks like me. Not saying you don't have a good product, I'm sure you do - just sounded like an sale pitch to me. :)

I just answered his question as to what the limits are and I can backup what I say with the test data. To say you can run a 65Hp tune is fine if you've never done any testing but we have.

"when towing or that occasional 'Choke on This Smoke' stoplight action"

This is what he stated so I answered what I know to be true. If he plans on Towing and runs greater than 50 rwhp his transmission will die between 70,000 to 80,000 miles. This is what we've found in testing. I wish it would take more but it doesn't. We make tunes all the way up and down the scale so there is no sales pitch just trying to let a consumer know what he is in for. If you think it's a blanket statement it is.......... it is also what I tell anyone who calls asking the same question. I would rather have a customer who knows the truth, and then makes his own decisions based on the risk factor he is willing to take.

Look at this thread and you will see what I mean Here (http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24899) from WillowCreekStable

Not sure why you think it's a sales pitch. Steve Cole (TTS) doesn't spend much time hyping his products. In general, he lets the results speak for themselves. Love or hate Steve, it's hard to find fault with his products.

There probably is no "exact" number of what the trans can take, anymore than you can say how many miles you'll get out of a set of tires, or how long a manual trans clutch will last. It's the "wear components" of the Allison that cause the limping. How much your vehicle weighs and how you drive is probably a bigger factor than the exact HP number you can add to it.

None of the tuners I've seen so far recommend more than 65HP for towing, and some recommend less. You've got two factors limiting the tow HP, trans slip and EGT's, and safety dictates you go for the one with the lower limit.

As far as me trying to "promote" TTS products? No. I just call a spade a spade. I've done testing on a few tuners, and when something works, I'll tell you. When it doesn't work, I'll tell you also. Steve Cole told me when I first got his tune to "lay it on the line". He said report on it good or bad. Which I did and continue to do. If it sucked, I'd tell the world.

I am also a big advocate of the Predator for the LLY, even though I don't actually have a good overall opinion of their product line. Their LLY stuff works good. But while their tune is very good, the TTS stuff is better IMO. When you drive/tow with both, you'll see. The Predator is very usable, but not as "stock feeling".

So....I understand that with the TTS, I have to replace my PCM? There is no programmer etc? What happens when I have to go to the dealer? I believe it is probably a good product, but I do not think I would be willing to pay an extra 4 bills to be able to retain my original PCM for service visits IF that is what would be required. I know that the PCM stores such data as the VIN and build dates etc, and I am really concerned about voiding my warranty etc.

Yes, you must swap ECM's for the TTS LLY programs right now.

While swapping ECM's is a simple task, you should have a backup ECM for warranty work.

I would recommend that you have a backup ECM if you are going to be programming your daily driver anyways. Occasionally writing to the ECM goes bad, either the programmer's fault or the user. And when it does, you are dead in the water, and if you are worried about the dealer finding you've modified your truck, showing up on a tow truck with a dead ECM that didn't take a tune wouldn't be good.

[QUOTE=McRat]Yes, you must swap ECM's for the TTS LLY programs right now.

While swapping ECM's is a simple task, you should have a backup ECM for warranty work.

How do you get a copy or backup ECM? How do you keep it current after upgrades of the original?

One thing to remember with a LLY truck donot exceed 50 Hp or 100 ft/lb if you want the Allison to live a long life. Power settings above this will shorten the life by 10 fold if not put the transmission into limp mode nether of which is good for it.

Steve,

Is this general guideline for both running empty and when hauling weight, or just when the truck is heavy?

If the above suggestion is for just when heavy, what is a general guideline when running empty?

Thanks.

Like everything, the way you drive plays a big roll in how things will last. My statement are for running empty and light towing on a LLY equipped truck. On a LB7 equipped truck we change the number to 80 Hp or 160 Ft/lbs. The change is necessary because of the difference in power output stock between the two motors. The transmission has not changed between the two models when it comes to holding capacity, same internal parts except that the LLY transmission has one more solenoid that lower line pressure at idle only to help with cooling.

How do you get a copy or backup ECM? How do you keep it current after upgrades of the original?

I bought my backup ECM from TTS. Your backup ECM will be your "dealer" ECM.

I bought my backup ECM from TTS. Your backup ECM will be your "dealer" ECM.

How much did the back up PCM cost?
Just Curious if I should buy one even though I use a Predator.

In the time it takes to remove the edge for a dealer visit, you can re-set the PCM back to stock with the Predator.

While that's true, one word to the wise: Tuners will leave a "footprint"! They save your stock programming when you download their performance program into your truck, and when you want to reset to stock programming, the downloader puts the program back in. However, it puts it right over the top of all information stored in your computer's PROM. In doing this, you've just erased all traces of the tuner, along with any potentially useful diagnostic information. When a tech plugs his scanner into your truck and sees no information, the first conclusion he comes to is not likely going to be that you had your battery disconnected

Your advantage there is that they have no way of actually proving you had a tuner installed. ):h

How much did the back up PCM cost?
Just Curious if I should buy one even though I use a Predator.

About $400 IIRC, if you change your programming frequently, and this is your primary transportation, it's about the same level of risk as having a spare accessory belt.

About $400 IIRC, if you change your programming frequently, and this is your primary transportation, it's about the same level of risk as having a spare accessory belt.
If I understand you correctly, it is would be $400 well spent? I think:)

But I don't have a spare accessory belt either!:help:
:lol:

Steve,

Is this general guideline for both running empty and when hauling weight, or just when the truck is heavy?

If the above suggestion is for just when heavy, what is a general guideline when running empty?

Thanks.

well?
nevermind....doh

There is one option everybody seems to have overlooked...Banks

They've released their Six-Gun Diesel Tuners with the Speed-Loader option for the LLY. I've heard no complaints concerning performance or driveability when using these, and their claimed power gains are right on, if not a little conservative; with the Six-Gun for the LB7 w/ the Speed-Loader upgrade, they claim 155 hp, 385 lb-ft torque. I've got dyno sheets in front of me from an independent test, and the horsepower gain is exactly 155. The torque, however, was a little off; the results I've got show a torque increase of 435.2 lb-ft which is over 50 higher than they claim. That's all on the highest power setting (level 6). Also of note, these readings were taken here in Colorado, where the altitude sucks great amounts of power from any vehicle.

Plus, Banks does their homework in R&D, so they've always got a solid product that performs without endangering your truck, and you shouldn't find yourself dealing with "bugs" in the programming.

Thank You Diesel Tech for a honest answer!!!

Banks HP gain of 155 hp makes me laugh):h :funnypost

I had one of the first banks "race" 6-guns for the LB7..................it didn't even come close to the 120 juice in terms of acceleration. On my truck it felt like 90hp at best.

Banks version 2 of the 6-gun with speedloader felt like 90hp? THAT makes me laugh.

Is it possible to just have the edge display screen, without the attitude...because i really dont care for the looks of guages..?

The attitude is the display screen. It dosnt look like regular gauges. not quite sure I follow ya?

That was the general concensus from 3 people driving it back to back in 2 different trucks. You may like it thats fine, but when we tried it last spring it was less then impressive.

Is it possible to just have the edge display screen, without the attitude...because i really dont care for the looks of guages..?The attitude is the contoller for the juice amoung other functions. If you just want a digital output with no enhancements you can go with a Bully Dog Outlook monitor or a BD X-Monitor. SPA has a digital gauge but it still looks like a gauge.

Carbon04,
Not trying to argue with you, just going by my experiences. This is what I've found out, even though your findings were different.
Besides the above dyno numbers, I've only seen ONE other person dyno the 2nd version of the 6-gun with speedloader on this forum. The uncorrected numbers were a 134hp 319tq gain. The corrected numbers were 149hp and 351tq-these are peak to peak gains, not best gains as Banks advertises. The Hypertech stage 3 is advertised at 96hp. This particular programmer ran a best of 15.4 on my truck. The Bullydog Powerpup stage 3 is advertised at 95hp. This programmer ran a best of 15.1 on my truck. The 6-gun on LEVEL 4 runs a 14.9 on my truck. Level 4 is advertised as 93hp. I've also run an Edge with attitude on the 125hp setting against mine on level 5, and we were very, very close until the shutdown at 97mph. Banks has tested their new version on level 6 with speedloader against several different tuners, including the 125hp Juice with attitude, and have beat it in the 1/4 mile. So based on the above mentioned experiences, you can see why I can't agree. I do not know how the LLY runs, as this testing was on an LB7. I'm sure what you stated is correct, but I've found a totally different outcome on my truck. No arguement intended.

You ever run the edge on your truck?

the edge set to 125 wont be putting down all its power in 5th on a stock trans becasue of the backdown. Or so was my expereince. I assume banks would be the same? A stock trans kinda sucks to try and test a tunners performance on becasue of this.

I tried to get a Banks to test when it was released, but it didn't work out. The price on it stops me from testing one. If someone gets good track results out of an LLY Banks, I will reconsider.

I did see a Banks equipped LLY truck at the track, and after he ran the Banks, I lent him a Predator. His truck went 7 MPH faster through the lights with the Predator. His MPH with the Banks was lower than the MPH I normally see with an LLY Edge.

I think Banks is high quality, but until I see more real world results with their LLY product, I'd be reluctant to endorse it.

McRat,

Im going to assume that when the dealer has software updates, they get done on the backup ECM, but dont get put on the TTS ECM, then, right? If so, the TTS ECM never will get any updated software loads that GM puts out, right?

Im having a real tough time deciding which route to go myself: wait until Edge fixes their issues then get a J/A or buy a TTS, and a backup ECM.

I do hear that Steve is working on a handheld tuner that is supposed to be out sometime this summer. If thats the case, this should be the way to go.....? Im in no rush.

Feel free to PM me. Diesel Tech, Im assuming your Steve Cole. Feel free to PM me as well.

DoJohnso - I have the TTS custom tune and an extra ECM for my 2002 truck. You are correct, you would never want to let GM update the ECM that has the TTS tune in it. So you are essentially frozen in time. On the other hand, if everything is running good, then there is no reason for them to update it in the first place.

If your not in a hurry, you may just want to wait for six months or so and see what becomes available or more refined. It took several years for all the issues to straighten themselves out on all the tuners that were available for the LB7. (And even then, some issues still exist).