I have a '97 K3500 with Heath's Turbo-Master. I have adjusted and adjusted, but I just can't get it to pull over 2000 RPM. I called Bill Heath and he said that some of these trucks just won't work with the turbo-master. He says I have to get the Maxi-Torque ECM or go back to the junky vacuum pump. How do you fellas set your boost and not cause the ecm to cut back the fuel? There has to be a sweet spot so it will at least pull as good as it did with the vacuum setup. I can't even break 80 MPH now. This truck used to run 97 easy. Any help would be much appreciated.

Do you have a boost gauge? if so, what readings are you getting?

My '94 computer setup is different but I may be able to help. If I push 12 psi or higher for 10 sec. my blazer kicks into limp mode until you turn off the ignition and restart. Defueling is not limp mode or boost related rather heat related as sensed by your intake air temp sensor although extra heat does build from increased boost. I don't have any fooling resistors installed on the map sensor so i just left it set for 10-11. if you don't have a boost gauge you shouldn't be using a turbomaster.

Yeah, I forgot to post that I have a press. guage. I don't have a pyro yet. I have tried setting it to the recommended 7 psi (per the instructions). If I set it to 7 psi max, it blows off to about 4 psi when the gate opens. I have tried 6,7,8,9 and 10 psi max and nothing seems to help. It seems like it pulls strong until 2000 rpm. If I'm pulling a load I can back off on the throttle a little and it seems to start pulling, but if I really mash on it, it just mellows out.

I'd just break down and get the chip and run the turbo-master as high as you want.

Either that or get your money back and use it to fix the vacuum setup. Worst case you will need Vacuum pump (~$80), WG Solenoid (~$25), Actuator (varies, shouldn't be much) and maybe some vacuum lines. How much did you pay for that 'Turbo-Master' again?

The vac is wack. The spring is king.
Summit sells a resisted 3 bar map for turbo applications such as this or you can soder in $2 worth of resistors into you MAP connection and run 15+ psi steady if you like. A pyro is a must have if you're pulling but running empty you'll never top 700 * egt's with a straight piped 6.5L unless you're dogging it.

The required resistance is 500 ohms off the MAP signal and then 1600 ohms jumping back to the ground (black)wire on the MAP connection.

Quantum Mechanic, that's what I'm looking for. #@%* that sorry vacuum pump. They seem to lock up when your 1500 miles from civilization on Sunday afternoon. The money I have spent on those could have bought five Maxi-Torques. Where do I get these resistors you speak of? What exactly should I ask for?

Radio Shack. I prefer a simpler setup than QM describes, all you need is one 10,000 (10k) Ohm resistor, just cut the middle of the 3 wires to the MAP sensor on the intake manifold and wire it in there. This will let you run ~10-12psi boost no prob.

Go to the back of radio shack and they have resistors and such in slideout trays.
The resistors I speak of are fixed resistors like you see sodered into circuitboards and they come several to the pack. You could get a pack of 500 ohm and 1K ohm and put (1) 500 ohm spliced into the green wire and you'd have two resistors inline, (1) 1K ohm and (1) 500 ohm one after the other in series after the first resistor between the green wire and ground wire.

Thanks Quantum, I knew there had to be something I could do. What color is the signal wire?

Man, this board is active. I've been a member/lurker at another site for awile. I posted about this right after I got the turbo-master and got nothing to speak of.

Doing the resistor thing tomorrow. What is a safe pressure to run until I get a pyro?

Or, try a plug-n-play, adjustable boost control from Kennedy Diesel?

The signal wire is green, it's the middle one, pin "B".
10 psi is safe and efficient.

If you like an adjustable one, add a pot. switch (two trays down at radio shack) but cut the green wire a little from the connector and wire it post (1)From left, ground off MAP, post two (middle post)the wire going to ECM, post three (last one) the wire off the MAP.

What's cleaner than a MAP with the resistance calibrated in?

Mines adjustable too. Plug and play ain't very adjustable when the vacuum pump has a rod hangin' out the side:badidea:

Thanks Quantum, I owe you big time. I'll let you know the results tomorrow evening.

There's some nice wiring diagrams in the archive that may help.
This is how you wire in a variable switch or potentiometer.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/EF3_Boostswitch3.jpg

Here's a diagram showing the configuration for fixed resistors, but substitute the values I gave you earlier. 2-5K ohms should be 500 ohms and 1-2 ohms should be 1500 ohms or 1.5K ohms. That will drop the volt signal to around ~1.12v off the MAP and ECM will not cut the fuel at 2000 rpm or hold back as they're known to do.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/1BC_Boostswitch4.jpg

ok, call me a dummy, but do I need a chip or any other mod to do this "boost control?" It's late at night, and this sounds like a cheap hop up. Thanks

The vacuum pump does exactly what it was meant to, SUCK! Mine's doing a great job as an idler pulley.

That pump comes off real easy on a '95-'00 but not a '94. The '95-'00 belt for pump removal is #061000 and the '94 runs #061010 w/o the pump.

ok, call me a dummy, but do I need a chip or any other mod to do this "boost control?" It's late at night, and this sounds like a cheap hop up. ThanksAn open exhaust and gauges are the prerequisites.

I left mine on to visually satisfy "You Know Who". After all mine is an "S"):h

Howdy Zeb welcome to the site,

Take a minute to peruse the RPO codes in the FAQs and in users CP update your signature line so we have a better understanding what total package is, gear ratio plays a part in the game would like to know what you have, TM may need boost fooling as well as the TM spring, NOTHING wrong with a vac system, it's a matter of understanding it, you should only need a TM if vac system isn't working at all.

TM with a reflash is a good plan but not until you have a pyro and open exhaust, in FAQs also a thread how to build performance with these trucks. TM will allow for more boost but when PCM sees it can't control of boost, it will defuel to try and protect the engine, so you have to use a fooler to lie to the boost being produced, in addition to hi boost defuel, High IAT can also cause a defuel/limp mode.

There are ways to build power but there is a proper sequence to doing that unless you want to bring your engine home in a trash can or do road side repairs as some here have had to do for not following recommendations from been there done that experiences of others. 2000 rpm max seems dubious, but could be attributed to low fuel to IP, or something like wrong pulley on a replaced alternator. If you have access to a T2 one of the copy T2s or a MT2500 check rpm there vs dash tach, scanner rpm comes from CPS dash is from alt but they should match. A partially blocked fuel filter or non functioning lift pump will hold you back on top end or give low pulling power.

I have a '97 K3500 with Heath's Turbo-Master. I have adjusted and adjusted, but I just can't get it to pull over 2000 RPM. I called Bill Heath and he said that some of these trucks just won't work with the turbo-master. He says I have to get the Maxi-Torque ECM or go back to the junky vacuum pump. How do you fellas set your boost and not cause the ecm to cut back the fuel? There has to be a sweet spot so it will at least pull as good as it did with the vacuum setup. I can't even break 80 MPH now. This truck used to run 97 easy. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks for the welcome. I updated my sig with all the variables. I think I can get access to a MT2500 if I must have it.

I think my problem is with the boost control. I always keep a close eye on the lift pump. I know exactly what it feels like when it starts cutting up. I have rewired it to work off the key instead of the OP sensor. This all started when I put the control on there. I WILL NOT go back to the vacuum pump. I have replaced a pile of them over the 7 years I have owned this truck and I refuse to buy another one. I won't say it again.

I don't know why my signature isn't showing up. Anyway, 97 crew cab DRW, 4.10's, 4L80E, K&N, straight exhaust, 215\85R16's, Turbo master, boost guage.

Looks like you got it now, have you done any troubleshooting on fuel delivery side, when was last fuel filter swap done. I once got into a power limiting situation caused by a dirty fuel dilter that only had 5K miles on it.

I don't know why my signature isn't showing up. Anyway, 97 crew cab DRW, 4.10's, 4L80E, K&N, straight exhaust, 215\85R16's, Turbo master, boost guage.

Zeb define pile of vac pumps???? what caused that conclusion, what kind of vac readings you getting, Id suspect actuator before a pile of vac pumps. Not trying to 2nd guess but multiple vac pump fails is out of the norm.

Zeb

I'm still suspicious of fuel delivery to IP, what is idle pressure 4-6 psi (.275-.41 bar or so) at idle is a good lift pump #, check under load by running gage & rubber line into cab off of the bowl drain, make sure to not dead head the reading by pinching off line, as engine speed changes you should see some gage needle deflection. 1-2 psi (.06-.13 bar) on hill climb loaded or heavy accel and returning to 4 psi(.275Bar) is sign of a good lift pump, less than that need to start looking for a new lift pump. I missed it or forgot it how many miles on the truck. Could IP or injectors be getting long in the tooth, could also be a boost thing EGT gage could help with that assessment, numbers from MT2500 would be good also. You got a cat on the exhaust??

Zeb,
I was reading another post reminded me of a time when swapping reflash programs where I kept getting clipped for hi boost even though gage was showing normal boost. Was one of your codes that led you to swap out many vac pumps, turbo performance P0235, that is a summary code for either high or low boost condition, turns out I was getting Hi boost input to my PCM, even with a reflash I was getting clipped, swapped the boost sensor my hi boost fuel clip went away. Get a boost reading from that MT2500 see what PCM is seeing for boost vs your gage reading? Also with MT2500 see what stored codes are there.

IAT as well, I've seen IAT sensors that show 200+F all the time, serious low power complaint, never tripped a code, guess the PCM just thought the truck was driving on Venus.

If the vacuum system is working properly, I have a simple, reliable, adjustable plug in boost controller that requires no splicing etc...

JK, you're controller would work with the TM as well.

JK fooler works well it's a KISS install ran one myself for a long time until I reflashed and no longer needed to fool PCM

I just finished installing the potientiometer. Works awesome! I wish I would have done this mod years ago. The one I got said 5K ohm on the box but it said 50K on the back of the actual part. I don't guess it matters, it'll just be more touchy. I'm only running 7-8 PSI max until I get a pyro. Thanks for all the help guys.

A funny anecdote.

When I was trying to resist my MAP signal and I had been told a 10K pot would work, I went to EPO and asked the sales guy how exactly I would wire a pot. switch in to reduce my sinal. This guy started telling me he couldn't even recommend a switch or help me in any way because I didn't have a wiring diagram. Well, I picked up a 10K pot. and headed for the check out counter and when the guy starts ringing me up I asked him which post was for what figured it out from there.

here's to easy hurdles.

My '94 computer setup is different but I may be able to help. If I push 12 psi or higher for 10 sec. my blazer kicks into limp mode until you turn off the ignition and restart. Defueling is not limp mode or boost related rather heat related as sensed by your intake air temp sensor although extra heat does build from increased boost. I don't have any fooling resistors installed on the map sensor so i just left it set for 10-11. if you don't have a boost gauge you shouldn't be using a turbomaster.
So when i get into the throttle and it starts cuttin fuel, this isn't limp mode? I cant imagine that the IAT are too hot. I can get it too cut fuel when it is 20 degrees out. I thought that it was sensing overboost and that my resistor wasn't doin the job.

Steiner you have OBDII it cuts fuel in a particular way sort of a studder of rapid cutting out. OBDI just drops WGDC and gives ses.

Here's another funny anecdote - if a guy carrying a variable resistor, known as a potentiometer, walks up to an electronic parts man, asking how to wire "this switch" into a circuit to reduce a signal, warning bells will immediately go off in the parts guy's mind.

He will then ask for a schematic, to see if the circuit needs -

- a variable resistor, wired in as
- a potentiometer to vary a signal voltage
- or -
- a rheostat to vary the signal current

- or if the circuit needs a switch to turn the signal on or off.

The parts guy would be very wise in asking for the circuit schematic, since the guy asking the question obviously does not know the difference between a variable resistor POTENTIOMETER and a common on-off SWITCH, and keeps referring to the POT as a SWITCH.

Here's to people who try to prevent other people from hurting themselves when they fall over those hurdles.:cool:
;)

And an even funnier anecdote -
- the parts guy is there to help with technical questions
- the sales guy is there to make a commission
- go figure............

I do alot of different things as a general contractor, every job is different and I know when someone's working with me and when I'm getting resistance. The point of the story was that I didn't let a little s**t stain my day. I took that switch and wired it the way TDG's running it today and thanks to you, someone finnally filled me in on how a true variable switch is wired and that wiring shematic I didn't have for the Eparts guy to figure it out for me is now available.

An open mind is open to the limitless possibilities that are present in each moment of life. A closed mind has decieded what life must be and resists any further input.-QM
I bet I'm the close minded one.):h

Only if you see it that way.
It's self fulfilling don't ya think.

Hmmmm - the point I read was that you were buying resistance by talking about a switch.
(cool play on words, there, right?):cool:

And, yes - I remember helping with a schematic incorporating that resistance, but nowhere in that circuit did I suggest a connection for a switch.

Terminology - names - is important, or mothers would not assign terminology - a name - to distinguish us from other children.:confused:

Sending a guy down to EPO, or RadShak, for a 10K variable POTENTIOMETER should result in less hassle from the sales people, don't you think?
Telling him how to connect that 10K POT into the MAP circuit should result in less electrical confusion, right, bm?

Or, is it..... am?.........or fm?............or .............what is your chosen forum terminology, again?;)

Steiner you have OBDII it cuts fuel in a particular way sort of a studder of rapid cutting out. OBDI just drops WGDC and gives ses.
But what is the reason for fuel being cut, too much boost or too high IAT?

Have to look at it while happening on scanner to know for sure, I suspect boost out of range PCM seeing too low a boost for rpm even with a waste gate commanded to full close for max boost PCM is expecting to see it go there. My guess when that does not happen with too much resistance is applied to boost sensor out put it sees a sensor fault and goes into protection mode as running with high rpm and a actual low boost condition isn't a good thing. Possibly GM Engineers knew since PCM does not monitor EGT they may have put in logic to prevent this as that could result in a hot engine high rpm and low boost.

The code normally set for this is P0235 boost performance out of range, low or high which leads me to thing too far either way can cause problems

i threw a code po236 when i first got my truck. that was actually my first post. but it never came back. turbo boost range sensor.

DO over my bad,

Right thought wrong code should have been a P0236, here is waht the book has to say about it

Conditions for running the DTC :
PCM looks for this continuously
The engine speed is greater than 2400 rpm
fuel rate is > 20mm
or
engine speed >1800 rpm but < 2400 rpom
fuel rate > than 20 mm

Conditions for settng code:
Boost is >,<, 20 kpa from PCM desired all diagnostic conditions met for period of 10 sec

Actions:
A poor performance will exist (if real but a PCM getting it's input fooled too low or too high sees this as poor performance)

PCM will reduce max fuel

PCM will disable TCC

Conditions to clear DTC
PCM will turn off SES after 3 consecutive trips without fault condition
History DTC clears after 40 warm up cycles so long as no other condition also exists
Clear with scan tool

I suspect you have something like this going on, is it possible you have this going on and SES light isn't working, the troubleshooting guide has you check solenoids, vac plumbing, WG operation, I would add check boost sensor, TS table says there is a WG solenoid filter tobe looked at, look for low vac.

Now while researcing this I looked at IAT, nothing in it's TS description does it say low or high IAT causes a defuel condition, but GM manuals are obtuse sometimes and give you just enough info to drive you loco. Classic example time set and TDC offset. IAT is a significant input to PCM, so anomaly there does cause the PCM to react.

Going back to your problem, I suspect since adding a fooler was your last action prior to this your problem is accociated with that or the boost sensor itself, another problem is why aren't you setting a hard code. Stacking resistance isn't the solution the PCM does expect to see some boost in a range of error that makes sense for a given rpm.

I see you have a TM spring how short do you have it compressed, what may be giving you fits is PCM inability to control boost since you have disabled WG control, PCM is commanding less boost via WG solenoid, and when it can't make that happen it defuels; you may need a fooler set for moderate boost to make the PCM happy IIRC before getting my reflash 5-8K is a good range setting on the fooler.

i am currently using the spring for the reflashed truck and it is set at 2". i have a 10k on the green wire on the map. i am not sure if the SES light is broken or not because i havent had anyother problems with the truck.

the light came on for awhile then went off and the came on one more time then went off back when i had the code po236. i then installed the turbomaster and never had the light on again.

What is your pot setting or do you have a fixed resistor

fixed

my best guess would be to buy the heath computer. i have one and love it. you wont regret spending the money and you can run all the boost you want. i have ran over 20 pounds of boost on mistake

Fixed 10 K is too much, what is your scanned boost reading from PCM I would bet it's very low, pull the fixed resistor set TM for level that does not set a code, or install a lower value in 5-8K range and see effect, or until you can afford a reflash I would say the plug & play of a JK fooler is a good investment, you can "dial in" the correct setting the PCM can live with, it's what I had to do before reflashing.

i cant afford the reflash or i would have it by now. so if i use a 5k instead of a 10k, i might fix this problem? i could pull the 10k resistor and go back to the original setting of the TM but then i would have to splice that wire so i might as well try a different resistor.

i wonder if i go and run my truck like i have to to get the fuel to cut back, and then run to autozone and see if the po236 will pop up or not?

See if you can find somebody with a T2 or MT2500 Snap on that won't charge an arm & leg to run a scan for you while driving, only way to know for sure what is happening, AZ can only read a set code or clear one; but since you are a 97 year, and description of how the code is set from my 98 manual I'd bet this is what is causing your problem.

Thing about SWAG solutions you can't leave out the Science of the guess, any arbitrary 10K resistor or more reaching for boost nirvana, IMO is a just a WAG (wild azz guess); might work for an OBD I but from fault description in my 98 manual's fault logic description my SWAG (science ala GM's manual) would be go ahead and go with a lower resistor, start at 5 K, 8K was on upper limit of what I recall from some of my testing I sort of remember turning on SES at 8.5 K, but lot of water over the dam to say for sure.

What boost are you seeing at 2" TM setting by gage

ok, i got an idea of someone that would let me use his mt200, but he wont be around till monday. all they had at radio shack was a 5.6K ohms resistor so i used that. im pretty sure it is better, but it still cuts fuel when i get into the throttle, i just dont think it cuts it as soon as it used to.

steiner, 20 K ohms is just enough without the grounding jumper set-up.

Okay once you see what you are getting may also be a boost sensor that went bad high, had that happen to me once, code did not set I don't know why.

QM based on what reference are you recommending a 20K resistor; he is OBD II did you not read what I wrote directly from the tech manual, it's not working right lets find out why before we start guessing what we think is the problem is and how to fix it. Run the scanner and see what the PCM is seeing. Dang it all engage your open mind for once.

steiner, 20 K ohms is just enough without the grounding jumper set-up.

I went back and corrected my post that should have read MT2500, what is your gage reading for boost.



ok, i got an idea of someone that would let me use his mt200, but he wont be around till monday. all they had at radio shack was a 5.6K ohms resistor so i used that. im pretty sure it is better, but it still cuts fuel when i get into the throttle, i just dont think it cuts it as soon as it used to.

Ideal MAP voltage reading on the scanner should be 1.15v-1.25v with resistors in.
This is low enough to fool the ECM even at 20+ psi and not low enough to set the low range code.

20K ohm fixed on the green only will be enough, but I'd still recommend a veriable pot. (not a switch even though they turn "off") or 500 ohm on the green and 1.5k ohms jumping back to ground.

so now your sayin 20k on the green?

No.
Ideally you'd soder in a pot. or the fixed with a jumper wire back to ground, it's a better system. The volt does't rise the same with right ohms to ground.
I was just pointing out that 20K inline is about what it takes to run all she's got or 15+ psi.

QM are you using a volume control wiper pot with a switch in it, a 0-10K resistor or pot normally does not have a switch in it and can't be switched off per-sei it's dialed 0 to 10,000 ohms of resistance loss of resistance is a bad spot in the wiper or you have run off of the wiper, a combination power/volume control has both a switch and a wiper in it, if this is what you are using it is okay, but explains a lot.

That's what I have, a 10K ohm volume switch, non linear.
It only move's when the kids are in the truck. nobs on the dash are made for turning right? Another reason I suggest sodering in the approximate value my pot. rests at (when left alone) under the hood with fixed resistors. My dad's '96 doesn't have any quirks from it's pot. and I did wire it with fixed resistors as well, just seeing what worked and what threw a code with both. The settings the OBDII runs are virtually the same range.

QM, It might be better to suggest a 15 turn 10K cermet pot rather than a volume control type. It is my understanding that the boost fooler is a set and forget kind of thing other than minor adjustments. The stability of a cermet is much better than a cheapo pot with a knob on it.

A properly working potentiometer will not ever "turn off". Resistance will range between the minimum and maximum range however.

FWIW I have not touched my fooler since I got it installed and set for a sane non-charge air cooled truck and I vary altitude 6000 feet in a day at times.

Terminology is 10K volume control potentiometer, if there is no switch assembly attached to the rear of the cover - does not turn off, just adjusts to zero..

And, therein lies a problem - a potentiometer meant for volume control service is not linear, but nearly logarithmic taper, which would result in extremely finicky adjustment.

A log taper pot changes very slowly over about 5/8ths of the rotation, then changes very quickly in the remaining rotation.

What is requred is a linear pot, such that the control result is smooth and manageable.

steiner, perhaps a 10k linear pot - multi-turn is better, as in one of those mini rectangular types - would help solve your problem, which appears to be high over boost related.

Multi-turn mini pots range between 10-turn to 21-turn, rectangular with lengths ranging around 1".

Solder it in as per QM's schematic, adjusted for max signal level, which would be full clockwise, then incrementally rotate it ccw for a 1-turn pot, 1 full turn for a multi-turn pot, untill you can stand on the pedal for more than 10 seconds without the DTC.

If you get a multi-turn, the terminal closest to the adjusting screw is to B, the opposite end terminal is to A, and the center terminal wiper is to original B wire to PCM.
This will give you ccw rotation to offset Boost DTC.

Go too far, and it will DTC again, as the PCM will think the Map sensor voltage is out of calibrated range, and is defective.
OBDII gives the same DTC for several types of MAP sensor failure.

I like it 'cuse anyone can find a radio shack.
Define extremly finicky
I've watched a few in operation through the scanner and it's purt near linear, and when it's resting, nothing much changes.
other than that, I'll soder fixed resisters:rant: someday and use the volume potentiometer for an ECT sensor resistor.

QM,

The pot GMCTD and I are describing is a radio shack part.

Are you using 271-1721? The one I am trying to describe is 271-343. Both are in every Radio Shack in my area. The 271-1721 is in the drawer above the 271-343.

A volume control pot is a taper or log and they do not demonstrate the linearity a precision pot will. The more turns it takes to span the full range of resistance means the easier it is to reach a precise resistance and have it stay at that setting.

I like it 'cuse anyone can find a radio shack.
Define extremly finicky
I've watched a few in operation through the scanner and it's purt near linear, and when it's resting, nothing much changes.
other than that, I'll soder fixed resister someday and use the volume knob for an ECT sensor resistor.

Fixed is good - adjust your 10K linear pot for no DTC, remove it from the circuit, measure from wiper to ccw end for that resistance value, measure from wiper to cw end for that resistance value, solder them and B to PCM wire together, connect ccw resistance to A, connect cw resistance to B, RTV it, and fergit it.

Knob pots are fer people - mini pots are fer calibrating circuits.

Radshak carries both types - so, yeah - do yer own thang..................

And, I am not in disagreement with nvmtnlion - we are just posting coincidentally, where I cannot read him till after I submit...........

Dial-up diddles!

I've had three different one's. Not sure on the number but it's the smallest 10K they had, ya know I might not have read it right.

The one I got from my Radio Shack said linear taper on the box. They also had audio taper.

So having a reflash, or chip in my case, invalidates the need for a pot?
Can I still "fool" the ECM with the "RV" chip init?

What is a RV chip, fooling is not required for a performance chip or reflash

Yes, Radshak carries most types of pots

Ya got yer audio taper and yer reverse audio taper

Gotcher log taper, along with yer reverse log taper

Gotcher linear taper, and that rarest of pots, the reverse linear taper

Specially factory calibrated, it is only for circuits that require the big at the little, and the bottom at the top.

Comes with it's own dayglo yellow with orange zzaapp warning tag: CAUTION ! - 50,000 ohms !

Easily recognized by it's ambi-helical threads, where the nut must be unscrewed on before it can be screwed off, extremely delicate finesse must be used at installation, so as not to damage the slivered threads among the galled......

This has been driving me nuts all day. What else would I need to do other than the mod w/ the pot? Chip? Heath boost control? *Pulls hair in confusion* Sorry for being stupid

How to from ground up as big as yer wallet can bear it is in FAQs

This has been driving me nuts all day. What else would I need to do other than the mod w/ the pot? Chip? Heath boost control? *Pulls hair in confusion* Sorry for being stupidGauges are good. If you get a chip you don't have to do the pot.

Hey 9D5, if you go with a chip, I'll buy your old one off ya!

ok.... I'll do more research