JUICE: "The ALTO clutches I tested were NFG. The stock ones seem to be the better way to go"

"C3 and C4 we used for testing the ALTO clutches, C3 and C4 pistons were factory items.
Results: FUUUBAR! C3 was cooked, Checked and was starting to delaminate
C4 was in the same condition. All steels were thrown in file the garbage. I guess yellow is not a fashionable colour for Kolene?"

I cannot sit idly by and watch a vender use a member mole to slander an outstanding company to cast desparity on another vender.

I am sure by now everyone should know that Sun Coast is a ALTO distribtor.
I equally indorse Borg-Warner & Raybestos as top quality clutch plates. ALTO is the first major mfg. to get started on a superior plate for the aftermarket Allison

BMDMAX (Brandon) 524/728 RWHP, 200 1/4 mile runs, 40 with NOS.
Alto plates, Inspection results: C-1 & C-2, like new, C-3/C-4 stressed but still functioning perfectly

SuperDave (Dave Gamble) 80,000 miles, 500+ RWHP, rode hard & put up wet,
Inspection results: C-1 & C-2, beautiful, C-3/C-4 some stress, lots of miles left http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16376

Rick ALLISON: world's fastest torqueflite, "Thanks to ALTO RED EAGLE clutches and KOLENE steels"

JIM HUGES: HUGES PERFORMANCE, "I use and recommend RED EAGLE clutches and KOLENE steels

BILL HYZY: TPI PERFORMANCE TRANSMISSIONS, " We have a 1958 Corvette 2500HP, supercharged and a Lenco 3-speed . We use only RED EAGLE clutches and our best time is 6.19 @ 200 mph. We get over 100 passes a season. It's the only clutch we use or sell"

JOEL GREATHOUSE: 2003 Edelbrock Super Street Champion & Record holder

Am I missing something here?

I can truthfully say in my 40 years of tranny building I have installed in excess of 15,000 ALTO frictions, 20,000 RAYBESTOS, and at least 30,000 BORG WARNER plates. In all of these I can only remember 2 positive friction caused failures with ALTO, BORG WARNER (Mike, remember all of those 400 frictions that flaked off) lots, RAYBESTOS, ( IF you count all of the 400 1/2 slides with the green waffle intermediates and all of the 2/3 squawk with the AOD directs, a bunch. Is BORG Warner or RAYBESTOS a quality friction. Absolutley YES. The point is when you make ten's of millions of a product you will have a few losers. This means everybody, myself included.
A friction failure is rarely a result of the plate quality, the clutch performance is dependant on apply pressure, fluid qualities, shift timing and probally a dozen more factors that escapes me at the moment.
I do know that when we first started testing a our billet, larger diameter C-1 piston over 18 months ago, until we got the calibration corrected the bind-up on the 4/5 when C-1 released and C-3 came on, the C-3 always got the short end of the stick because it was starting to apply.
I hope I've blown away some of the smoke. The new guy on the scene has directly & indirectly bad-mouthed Sun Coast, ALTO, & TRANSGO. Between the three we have combined over 100 years experience in the trans industry.
BY the way JUICE I wonder where your buddy got the KOLENES?
If you want to beat-up on Sun Coast go ahead ( That's the advantage of getting older, your skin gets tough,) but don't slander two companies that have probally done more for the aftermarket trans industry than anybody.
Thanks for listening.
Smoop

Joe

I remember those waffle green clutches that squawked in the 400 TH, believe they were Raybestos. Raybestos had their problems with the 1-2 shift on the AOD Ford trans. I remember going into the trash to get the B/W clutches out and put them back in because we could not stop the 1-2 slide bump. There is nothing wrong with the Alto clutches and they will hold big power. I am testing the Reybestos clutches because they are new and they have not tested them on big horsepower. I will. I am also looking to clean up the 3-4 shift and am having trouble doing it because the Transgo return springs for C2 are only calibrated for stock clutches. Raybestos Z-Pak is not calibrated for that and neither is any other clutch pack besides stock. I believe that someone is going to have to recalibrate those springs( C2) and make the TCM happy to get rid of the 3-4 shift problem.

we need to talk to that dang TCM....I gotta go find my Allison DOC software..

Smoop I only report what I saw.
For a dragracing Application, they might be the best thing since sliced bread.
For their ability to survive in a towing application, they failed.
Member Mole? Not Hardly. They FAILED.

No BS Joe, it is not my style... but to each their own i guess

but don't slander two companies that have probally done more for the aftermarket trans industry than anybody.
Thanks for listening.
Smoop
Oh I hear you loud and clear smoop.
I have not Slandered. Slandered is VERBAL ; Libel is WRITTEN. And both are not what I have said.

Stated a FACT Yes.

But while we are on the topic, will you somehow close this thread down too?

You are batting 1000 on the DTT threads, and we wouldn't want you to get bored and not close this one down too.):h


Thanks For Listening
Juice

No clutch manufacturer should be judged by a burned set of clutches, it is not fair. I see certain failures every day as does Joe Webb. We in the transmission business could tell storys that would help no one and hurt everyone, and do no good at all. Just like any business on earth, if you knew what really went on, you would never leave your house. ):h
mike

Yes, ok, I can understand that. Smoop must be taking this out of context. I was asked in the thread to EVALUATE what the transmission looked like upon teardown. Nothing more, nothing less.

So why the fuss?

I'm still confused on the "yellow color of Kolene"??

IN DEFENSE OF ALTO. I build a lot of HP units primarily Powergides for high horsepower drag cars that typically run in the 4.30-70 second zone in the eight mile. These are door slammers running large BBFs and BBCs in excess of 1200 HP. The Alto "Powerpack" (Red Eagles/Kolenes) is my standard for the high gear clutch drum. They are up to the task and repeatedly survive in this environment, I've seen the same clutches last for a few seasons of "real" abuse.

What's this got to do with C3/4 clutches in an Allison? Nothing. But Alto has the "nuts" to pioneer and work with the high performance field at all levels in developing products that work. As someone has previously mentioned clutch performance depends on much more than the friction elements themselves. Perhaps the trans itself wasn't up to the task resulting in the preceived clutch failure?

Final thought--all those burned up clutches in an OE unit replaced during a rebuild aren't made by Alto, right?

Yes, ok, I can understand that. Smoop must be taking this out of context. I was asked in the thread to EVALUATE what the transmission looked like upon teardown. Nothing more, nothing less.

So why the fuss?In defense of Juice, (not that he ever really needs defending!) he and I have been talking about the DTT setup at length, both on site and in PM's. I wanted to learn more about it, AND find out more info on what other parts I should look into buying to complete that kit, since it's a "buffet" style setup...you pick the pieces you want to put in. IN NO WAY did we intend to negatively portray a product as bad. I just want to do enough research so that if/when the time comes, I get the most bang for my buck.

I had asked him how the internals looked upon teardown after his allotted test time was up. He told me what he and Stefan saw upon that teardown. Maybe we should've put a disclaimer in there that said, in part," your transmission may not experience these results." If that came off as disparaging to you or to Alto, you and they have my apologies....


As for the "Big 3" trannys...I think all the transmission vendors advertised here have excellent quality products!!!! We as customers have the unbelievable luxury of being able to choose any of them and get great results. I think, in the end, the new kid (so to speak) will be just as excellent a product.

Tom :pig:

I'm still confused on the "yellow color of Kolene"??
My steels in my STAGE III were a black color....not yellow........so what do I have........

I would like to know.........

T:) NY

JUICE,
First let me say this is not a personal attack on you. My perception of you based on your post is that you seem to be an opened minded individual with much exuberance, probaly a fun person to hang with.

I addressed my concerns to you because you chose to be the messenger. Nothing out of context, your statements and intent were very clear. Slander or libel, whatever label you use the intent was the same. Please don't cloud the issue with semantics. If stating the truth results in the shut down of a thread then so be it. If I did not challenge your statements then I would have to feel that I endorsed them and I cannot allow that.

If you want to engage in an informative rational discussion of wet clutch friction design, composition, and properties along with reaction plate qualities and surface preparation then I will be a willing participant.

Racing or towing makes little difference. Testing a product to its limits, analyze, identify, and correct the cause of failures is what its all about.
During our initial testing we took a tandem axle trailer loaded with pool filter sand (18,000 #) and made 30 consecutive wide open runs from 0 to 80 mph with 03 D-MAX (514 RHP / 984 torque) until I started having concerns about engine life.
The best analogy I can give you concerning friction failure is this. Lets take a typical 1997 Chev 1500 with gas V-8, 90,000 miles. Comes in the shop with 4L60E with 3/4 clutchs smoked. This unit left the factory with new Borg Warner plates. ( let me say right now in my opinion Borg Warner is one of the best clutch plates on the market, along with ALTO and Raybestos) What caused the failure? Were the frictions defective? ABSOLUTLY NOT! The frictions failed because the system that applys and supports them failed. This encompasses pressure loss, heat build up, shift timing etc. These plates did not start their demise when they left the factory. In fact all things being equal they reached the highest capacity at approx 10,000 miles and maintained that until the cause of system failure occured probaly within 3,000 miles of complete failure. I invite any trans builders input on this.

It strikes me as odd that we now have hundreds of Allisons out without the first C-3/C-4 failure. Yet yours failed immediatly. Could it be the trans system itself failed? Clutch pressures, clearance, calibration has far more bearing on the clutch pack life than plate composition. From the very beginning of your journey into Allison your builders statements and your posts have been full of contradictions regarding shift kits, clutch plates, time, miles etc.
Clean competition is a good thing for all concerned. It produces new ideas that ultimately benefit everyone. No one mfg can control the market and meet the demand. For the customer's benefit lets keep the smoke and mirrors out of it.
Smoop

Smoke and mirrors is not in my nature.
There are a lot of people that wanted to know about the condition on teardown.
I know as much about an Automatic Transmission as I know on the topic of understanding women.

Everything has a finite lifespan, be it a clutch, or anything else.
I am glad you appreciate clean competition, I value that in an individual.

But all i can report on is what I observed. Which is what everyone wants who is looking at a transmission upgrade, wether it be ATS, Suncoast or DTT.

Smoop I only report what I saw.
For a dragracing Application, they might be the best thing since sliced bread.
For their ability to survive in a towing application, they failed.
Member Mole? Not Hardly. They FAILED.

No BS Joe, it is not my style... but to each their own i guess
What kit/upgrade was installed in this vehicle? Was it a package setup from Suncoast, a custom setup, or a prototype setup?

Clutches alone are not the answer. If you exceed the holding aboility of the PACKAGE, you will smoke anything. I have some VERY nasty OEM steels and clutches from my first transmission. Will see what lurks inside my Suncoast Allison the next time I pull it out.

For now, I have one major problem (after working to get the Allison to handle the VA) and that is that the rear tires leave these black lines in 2nd gear, and out to about 70mph:eek: That's with a no spool, flat can it and roll smoke singals lazy launch...

For now, I have one major problem (after working to get the Allison to handle the VA) and that is that the rear tires leave these black lines in 2nd gear, and out to about 70mph:eek: That's with a no spool, flat can it and roll smoke singals lazy launch...
John, Do you have the VA set to kill, or just to maim? Your tire guys must just LOVE you!!!! :lol:

Tom

Joe... Juice.... I'm going out on a limb here. I think you are both right. :Handshake I believe the observation Juice had was correct, his clutches failed or were in great demise. I also believe that Joe's statements on pressure or set-up is dead on. Maybe, just maybe... DTT was trying to see what would happen to Alto clutches in their application with low pressure? Why else would they use them where they did? Notice how the other clutches were BW? I think most of the tranny builders know where the weakness is and are looking for the answer. :think: I do not think we have found the end of the Allison yet. It appears to me that when true holding capacity is found...... hardware starts breaking not software. Start breaking shafts every time you hit the track and you've got something.


and Mike, you're smarter than you look. ):h



........ just a note: Bill and Steffan use ALTO's in their race cars. I doubt they'll say anything poor reguarding ALTO's.



... let me get my flame suit.




Burner----------------------->:D

I'm gonna throw out a thought I had....its not a flame, just a thought, ok?

Juice tore up his Alto's in a towing application...not racing. Could there be a corellation between the continuous heat buildup during towing affecting the single-sided clutches quicker (distortion/burning) than normal as compared to the short-time heat build-up that occurrs during racing applications? I just surmise that the separate clutch/steels combo may be able to dissappate the heat faster in a towing-type application.

Could it be that the type of application your truck is going to see the most should dictate the type of trans clutches you select?

Like I said, its just an idea I threw out there. All this trans talk just got my mind going...and isn't that how we learn?

Tom :pig:

I can tell you I been at this for 30 + years and I've seen a lot of failures, caused a lot of them myself. Mike L. can vouch for some of the power I tend to throw at a transmission. Towing and racing are two different worlds and testing needs to be done to make something last in either world. What clutches to use how much pressure do they want/need. More clutches, less clutches thinner steels, thicker steels................ who knows. What I can tell you is what I've seen and learned through all this. Most of the aftermarket clutches were designed to replace the OEM units, they need to be as good as or better. Then there is the high end clutches designed for racing. This is where is starts getting fun. Put one set in and find out they work like $hit, call the manufacture and they tell you to set them up a different way. Try it and they work great. So what all this testing taught me is you need to set things up differently for different applications. It's up to you to do it or you take it to someone who already knows how to do it. If you mix and match clutches and shift kits your on your own. The Transgo Kit was designed around stock OEM clutches with stock OEM steels anything other than that your on your own. The Transgo kit was never tested during development with anything other than stock clutches and steels and I supplied the HP for all the testing. I feel it has a limit of 500 FWHP. If you want to play be ready to pay. What I have seen on most towing applications is I do not like thinner steels and frictions. It's my belief that the thinner steel will not get the heat out fast enough in a towing application and they tends to warp. Once warped it will then start to destroy the friction plate. Now use the same parts in a Race transmission and it's fine.......... why one might ask? Again, my belief is that the race application only see short burst of heat unlike what a towing application sees. So my suggestion would be trust who you work with and use there knowledge to help guide you. If you on the other hand are like me and continue to push the envelope plan on breaking things cause it's going to happen.

Little too much 'Heat Soak' on the thinner steel for pull'n loads, eh?

I'd also like to know if the clutch setup was strictly used to tow, or if there was some race done in between.

Personally, I'd think that towing with big power and added load/traction could be harder on the transmission yet. Moving a 7k truck down a track is one thing, but adding 2k of pinweight and 15,000+# and "horsing" around is another.

I did a 16.xx (if memory serves) Gtech blast with an empty 5k gooseneck trailer behind. I know that didn't do the transmission any justice. Neither did the primarily uphill standing mile (Diesel Page Pull off) in less that a minute with a 16k+ dually gooseneck. The Allison did not like that one at all...

Thank you very much, Diesel Tech for your insight.......

I can tell you I been at this for 30 + years and I've seen a lot of failures, caused a lot of them myself. Mike L. can vouch for some of the power I tend to throw at a transmission. Towing and racing are two different worlds and testing needs to be done to make something last in either world. What clutches to use how much pressure do they want/need. More clutches, less clutches thinner steels, thicker steels................ who knows. What I can tell you is what I've seen and learned through all this. Most of the aftermarket clutches were designed to replace the OEM units, they need to be as good as or better. Then there is the high end clutches designed for racing. This is where is starts getting fun. Put one set in and find out they work like $hit, call the manufacture and they tell you to set them up a different way. Try it and they work great. So what all this testing taught me is you need to set things up differently for different applications. It's up to you to do it or you take it to someone who already knows how to do it. If you mix and match clutches and shift kits your on your own. The Transgo Kit was designed around stock OEM clutches with stock OEM steels anything other than that your on your own. The Transgo kit was never tested during development with anything other than stock clutches and steels and I supplied the HP for all the testing. I feel it has a limit of 500 FWHP. If you want to play be ready to pay. What I have seen on most towing applications is I do not like thinner steels and frictions. It's my belief that the thinner steel will not get the heat out fast enough in a towing application and they tends to warp. Once warped it will then start to destroy the friction plate. Now use the same parts in a Race transmission and it's fine.......... why one might ask? Again, my belief is that the race application only see short burst of heat unlike what a towing application sees. So my suggestion would be trust who you work with and use there knowledge to help guide you. If you on the other hand are like me and continue to push the envelope plan on breaking things cause it's going to happen.
Then what about additional fluid cooling capacity for towing applications? Would this not protect the thinner steels from heat induced warping? Then we would have the best of both worlds.

..... Would a severe drop in transmission via~ the enlarged cooler hurt the trans or help it? How would you keep the trans @ temp in cold weather or normal driving?

Tommy

It's my belief the problem can not be solved with a cooler. My reasons are simple. The fluid must travel from the cooler to the case of the transmission and then through the case which is hot as well reheating the fluid. By the time the oil splashes on the clutch packs the damage to thin steels is already done. The clutch packs in the Allison do not have force feed oil coming to them so them must be thick enough to handle the heat with little cooling from the fluid. The main source of heat for the fluid is the torque converter and Towing gets it hot when the clutch in the converter is unlocked. A bigger cooler will help this a lot. Like I said this is completely different when racing as the case of the transmission seldom get hot in a 1/4 mile and the steels have time to cool off between runs, but when towing the case temperatures rise and there is no place for the heat to go. So the steels need to be thick enough to handle the heat load without warping. Remember the steels are basically tied to the case as they are stationary so the only way to dissipate the heat is out into the case and by what the splashed fluid draws off. C1 and C2 are even worse off as they are stacked into a drum back to back and completely covered. Now I do not mean to say they sit right on top of each other but they all go into the same drum. The drum helps hold the heat in event more and when towing in the hills loaded, the up and down shifting takes it's toll.

How do we know what "experimental" things were done during "R&D" to cause failure of the Alto clutches.Was it tore down and replaced tested under the same circumstances with Borg Warner clutches only and retested as the only change?I know I cooked a set of C1's.I know why, guess I should blame the friction too,as my truck had limited forward motion afterward?

It was once said vaguely the Transgo Kit failed also,A B Trim solenoid valves and C2 spring plate springs. Hard to believe when so many more of us are running without any incidents. :confuzeld

Just not enough volunteered information with the name finger point IMO.Guess it's just easier to say ,it failed then explain the how what why and where WE went wrong during the discovery time of R&D.

I cant see where towing or racing is considerably more abusive then another. In towing, your generally locked up (conv) and that will allow the trans temps to go down. When racing, your constantly going up through the gears at WOT. Your WOT of stopped. Go flog a truck and watch your temp gauge, hot isnt it. Go tow, pretty steady overall, at least mine is.

Its a never ending battle to find the right combo of clutches, I have seen ATS clutches completely delaminate the friction material right off the backing. I have seen OEM clutches do the same in abusive situations. Alto's as well..

Like Diesel Tech said, if your gonna play, you should expect to pay. I dont care who's clutches/transmission you use. Heavy abuse will not be done with out damage.

Too many variable to decide that one clutch is inferior over another though

Mac

I see more and more people that are trying to develop trans mods in the Ally reverting back to Transgo ideas. They start out using only one mod out of the Transgo shift kit and wind up using more of them. The Transgo shift kit is not the end all be all, but it is one hell of a base to build on. Show me any other mod for the Ally that costs less than 300.00 bucks without installation, coupled with a triple converter of your choice (name brand of course) that will hold as much power.:exactly: To answer your question on failed clutches, whatever brand, as compared to other clutches; there has not been enough time or data or failures yet.

Is it true that the Transgo is not compatible with the 05 Allison? If so, why not?

Is it true that the Transgo is not compatible with the 05 Allison? If so, why not?
Where do these storys come from?:badidea: They are compatible.

the boost valve is not, the trans go kit works

The only difference I know of between an 01 trans and an 05 is 'basicly' the valve body and in that..... there's just a switch. Ok, programing the switch could be another part.... LOL

Mac

I see more and more people that are trying to develop trans mods in the Ally reverting back to Transgo ideas. They start out using only one mod out of the Transgo shift kit and wind up using more of them. The Transgo shift kit is not the end all be all, but it is one hell of a base to build on. Show me any other mod for the Ally that costs less than 300.00 bucks without installation, coupled with a triple converter of your choice (name brand of course) that will hold as much power.:exactly: To answer your question on failed clutches, whatever brand, as compared to other clutches; there has not been enough time or data or failures yet.



:exactly: Right on Mike!

Clutch Plates

Since we obviously have a great pool of clutch design data here I would ask the following questions:
Does Borg Warner & Raybestos have different plates for towing than for racing?
How does the transmission mfg know what the truck / trans will be used for?
What qualifies a reaction plate to garner the title "thin"
What are the design parameters for reaction plate OAT (overall thickness)
When is thin thin? Thinner than what?
If the end result of an increase in clutch capacity results in lower temperatures (less slippage-shorter engagement lock time) as compared to OEM how can that not be a good thing. Towing or racing the trans temp should stabalize at a given temperature, at this point the TC determines any major rise or fall of temps. Towing heavy loads would be less stressful on clutch packs unless you were making repeated hard throttle starts because once the clutch is applied and locks the incidence of slippage is almost zero unless the system (pressure/fluid fails.
It puzzles me that having probalblybuilt more performance 1000 Allisons than anybody on the planet I have yet to see this heat induced deflection. The only plate deflection I have seen in the Allison is when we tried using single sided frictions in the C-2 clutch that's why we never brought them to market.
I will be spending most of this Wednesday consulting with engineers that have ifinitelly more formal education in wet clutch design than I do. I will be in L.A. on Thursday consulting with more of the same. I will present these questions and post their answers.
Smoop

I cant see where towing or racing is considerably more abusive then another. In towing, your generally locked up (conv) and that will allow the trans temps to go down. When racing, your constantly going up through the gears at WOT. Your WOT of stopped. Go flog a truck and watch your temp gauge, hot isnt it. Go tow, pretty steady overall, at least mine is.


Eric

Most Racing applications are only run for a short burst of power. Let see a typical 1/4 mile run is over in about 16 sec max. a typical sled pull is over in about 30 sec. max. TOWING a load typically runs anywhere from 3 to 10 hours! The demands on the transmission are completely different. Towing is much more abusive overall than racing is. Towing is a steady application between 50% to 100% power output for 3 to 10 hours. Racing is 90% - 100% power output for 30 seconds, big difference!

The only difference I know of between an 01 trans and an 05 is 'basicly' the valve body and in that..... there's just a switch. Ok, programing the switch could be another part.... LOL
Burner,
In the 05 Allison every valve in the front support assembly has changed.
Pressure cut back as related to TCC apply is achieved in another fashion. The valve body has changed to accomodate the "G" solenoid for pressure reduction @ less than 8% throttle opening to improve cooling while idleing.

The TRANSGO kit will work just fine in the 05 trans. The A1-LU-BST valve will not work in an 05 Feb production & later.
Smoop

ok, NOW :eek: that I have rear every trans post on here for the 3 or 4 time... what is the best choice for a tow,snowplowing,rice eating allison trans upgrade? A transgo kit and a tripple loc or go the whole boat suncaost or ats LVL 4 type build? My 01 is in need of a trans and I would lkie to beef up the trans in my 05 as it is now the main TOW beast. If I do a LVL 4 in the 01 the cookie jar will be empty an the 05 will have to wait, so what is the best way? I know, I know ya gotta pay to play, but Moma don't understand the $$$ outlay on a new truck, the old one is easy, it's wore out):h

What programing are you running, do you want to run perf plans ect.....

Towing is hard on clutches. WOT Dshifts while towing 15-19K LBS up mountain passes etc.

ok, NOW :eek: that I have rear every trans post on here for the 3 or 4 time... what is the best choice for a tow,snowplowing,rice eating allison trans upgrade? A transgo kit and a tripple loc or go the whole boat suncaost or ats LVL 4 type build? My 01 is in need of a trans and I would lkie to beef up the trans in my 05 as it is now the main TOW beast. If I do a LVL 4 in the 01 the cookie jar will be empty an the 05 will have to wait, so what is the best way? I know, I know ya gotta pay to play, but Moma don't understand the $$$ outlay on a new truck, the old one is easy, it's wore out):h
Marty, give Eric a call.

thanks smoop ;)

Thanks guys for all the great info! See what happens when we don't have a pissing match about things? :thumb:

Smoop, when you get back from Cali, let us know what you found out!

Thanks again, guys!!!!! :ro)

Tom :pig:

Say hello to Steve and Mike for us.:drinking: :hug: there again.....maybe I'm a little :cookoo:

Well I for one have seen heat deflection in the steels within the Allison transmission and I also know of several other people (transmission builders) who have seen it as well. I have seen it in OEM steels, Alto/Suncoast steels, ATS and Raybestos, the thinner the steel the more you see it. There is not one kit on the market today that improves shift time quicker than OEM and I can prove it. What does happen is that the OEM transmission will not hold additional power which causes the shift time to lengthen. The aftermarket upgrade can only reduce the shift time back to OEM levels. The reason for this is simple............. it called a TCM! The adaptive learning for the TCM brings shift time into what it calls good. If it's too fast it will slow it down, if it's to slow it speeds it up. That's the way it works and there is nothing that any aftermarket company has done to change it. The ATS Copilot is the only device that attempts to change this but with time the OEM TCM undoes what it adds. The only way to stop it is to run with the copilot turned off under normal driving conditions and switch it on just before going to hotrod. What happens is the TCM adjust the transmission to where it wants and when you switch the copilot on it speeds the shift up, but since the TCM is in slow learn it will take it awhile to unadjust what you have added with the copliot. As you drive it the TCM will learn so the trick is to switch the copilot off when your done hotrodding. Whe it comes to Towing, running along in one gear isn't the problem, the problem is the heat generated by the power being put through the transmission and the up/down shifting while pulling the load in traffic or in the mountains and hills. I would guess this is the reason Ford, GM, Chrylser and Toyota all spend so much time hear in California doing tow testing in the mountains and the desert. We have the heat and mountains to put it to the test not like some other parts of the country where the highest climb is over a bridge.

Towing is hard on clutches. WOT Dshifts while towing 15-19K LBS up mountain passes etc. I'm not sure which is harder, towing for 8-10 hours per day and the latent heat buildup or plowing snow for 15 hours, the heat is fantastic then also. Everything I use the trucks for works the chit out of them and I want to improve on what is good but at the same time not reduce the longjevity of anyone part of the truck. I do run the "juice" on lvl 3 24/7/365 no matter what I am doing, 30k that way and no problems, the 05 got "juiced" at 400 miles so thats my plans. Tim- I wish Eric was closer because he sure knows what he's talking about, I do have WIHUCK and Patric close to me also so several options are open. If I buy a complete trans I can do the swap myself, a rebuild I'm not so sure on. SO as my Father would always say- ask lots of questions and sort the answers very carefuly then go for it! So I am on a fact finding phase now, the oily part is next:D

SE WI is very close really.. LOL

Last guy come from MO, a fellow from OKC is scheduling a trip soon... 950 miles each way

Eric- need any plow parts, larger super tank, nerf bars.. LOL I know that you are close- maybe a sight seeing trip that way and a new trans to boot?

Well I for one have seen heat deflection in the steels within the Allison transmission and I also know of several other people (transmission builders) who have seen it as well. I have seen it in OEM steels, Alto/Suncoast steels, ATS and Raybestos, the thinner the steel the more you see it. There is not one kit on the market today that improves shift time quicker than OEM and I can prove it. What does happen is that the OEM transmission will not hold additional power which causes the shift time to lengthen. The aftermarket upgrade can only reduce the shift time back to OEM levels. The reason for this is simple............. it called a TCM! The adaptive learning for the TCM brings shift time into what it calls good. If it's too fast it will slow it down, if it's to slow it speeds it up. That's the way it works and there is nothing that any aftermarket company has done to change it. The ATS Copilot is the only device that attempts to change this but with time the OEM TCM undoes what it adds. The only way to stop it is to run with the copilot turned off under normal driving conditions and switch it on just before going to hotrod. What happens is the TCM adjust the transmission to where it wants and when you switch the copilot on it speeds the shift up, but since the TCM is in slow learn it will take it awhile to unadjust what you have added with the copliot. As you drive it the TCM will learn so the trick is to switch the copilot off when your done hotrodding. Whe it comes to Towing, running along in one gear isn't the problem, the problem is the heat generated by the power being put through the transmission and the up/down shifting while pulling the load in traffic or in the mountains and hills. I would guess this is the reason Ford, GM, Chrylser and Toyota all spend so much time hear in California doing tow testing in the mountains and the desert. We have the heat and mountains to put it to the test not like some other parts of the country where the highest climb is over a bridge.
So the millon dollar question. Why doesn't/hasn't/can't anyone reprogramn the TCM?

Just rip the damn thing out and put in your own. LOL.

Joe, Why don't you use ALTO clutches for C1? I have never heard of HEG. Aren't you causing a timing issue by using 2 different clutch materials/brands? Just asking.

Diesel Tech - What causes the "heat deflections" in the steels--high operating temp, clutch slippage, combination of both, or something else? Have you seen this in the Kolene steels?

Again I must fall back on my Powerglide experiance--once I switched to the Alto Powerpack w/.060" thin Kolene steels I can't remember ever seeing heat checked steels in 1200+ horsepower situations.

Are Kolene Steels Yellow or Black when new ???????

T:confused: NY

Carbon,
Our C-1 clutches are Alto. ALL of our plates are Alto. The HEG is in reference to the friction material. We use adifferent material on C-1 than the rest of the plates.
Smoop

Smoop, stay the hell of the computer when your on vacation!!!!!!

...... Look who's talk'n

gtmax

The Powerglide experience has no bearing on the Allison. A Powerglide is all mechanical and shift timing is completely controllable, an Allison is not. The computer will make the apply time what it wants no matter how many clutches you stack in. So the steel must absorb the heat generated during apply time as well as when towing at high internal temperatures. Yes, I have seen Kolene steels with the Kolene rubbed off and heat checked from several Alto steels. I can also tell you if you compare an Alto Kolene steel to a factory GM Kolene steel they look nothing the same. There must be different process's being used.

Joe, Why don't you use the red eagle friction material on the C1's? Why don't you use the HEG material on the rest of the clutches?

I thought C1 was a drip and the rest were squerts.):h

Carbon,
The C-1 is primarily a "static" clutch (applied when "mass" weight is stationary) as opposed to a "dynamic" clutch (C-2 etc) applied to stop or initiate moving mass. Design and critiera dictate different frictional properties of friction material. Bottom line: use the material that performs best in each application.
Smoop

Why can't a program be designed around the factory limitation's of the TCM and it's adaptive learning BS? Put 600 HP from the engine to the tranny and make it stick.

If program's can be designed to get more HP out of the Duramax that it wasn't intended to make, then why hasn't any one come out with a program for the tranny to make it snap the shift's off 1-2-3-4-5 ?

I think we're going to see something this summer for the TCM....

I think we're going to see something this summer for the TCM....
Since this kind of thing is not my forte; I am doing my best toblindfold the *****.:cool:

Since this kind of thing is not my forte; I am doing my best toblindfold the *****.:cool:
Whatever works :D