:help:

This is more than likely a dumb question, but I really dont know that much about Diesel Engines yet.. I was wondering if anyone run Jet fuel in their trucks? What Im trying to find is a higher grade fuel to run on occasion, as long as its safe for my DMAX.. I ask about jet fuel because Ive been told that its just a high grade diesel/kerosene.. And I buy my 100LL and 108 octane gasoline from the local airport to fuel my Harley and my YZ250F Dirtbike. I always see that other pump there, and I asked the guys at the airport about running it in my truck, but they are clueless.. they couldnt even understand why I would want to run 100 in my Harley or 108 in my dirtbike..


Thanks for any help ya'll might have.

GD, try it out Mafia.

Jet A does not have as much lubricity as normal diesel fuel. You would have to use lubricity additives to address that issue. A buddy of mine is a airline fuel inspector and we have talked about this issue. Personally, I wouldn't do it.

well according to GM you can use Jet A with no problems (it says so in the military duramax's owners manual)

The 108 octane fuel is aviation fuel or AV gas. It is actually gasoline range and probably shouldn't be run in a diesel. Jet A is heavier than AV gas but is lighter than diesel. Jet can be run but lubricity would definitely be a concern. Jet flashes around 110 degrees F where as diesel flashes around 230 degrees F...at least those are the targets we shoot for at the refinery. So the combustion characteristics are completely different. The heavier the fuel, the more BTU's it has also. As BTU's go up, the amount of fuel required to achieve the same amount of energy goes down. So it probably wouldn't be cost effective to run Jet after additives and such. Mileage would probably go down as well. At least to me it seems it would. Besides, here in Washington State, I believe Jet is more expensive than diesel anyways.

Well Im not considering running JetA to save $$. I was mainly thinking about it because I know in my Harley I run 100 at all times, and every now and then run a 1/2 tank or more of 110 or 118 just to knock the crap off the valves and give it a lil workout.. So i didnt know if there was a "premium" diesel so to speak, ya know? But if I would have to add lubrication to the jet A, or just add some type of additive to regular diesel, and get the same effect, then I'll just stick with regular diesel.

Thanks for all the info!

every now and then run a 1/2 tank or more of 110 or 118 just to knock the crap off the valves and give it a lil workout..
Really?

If you aint running cr of 10.XX or more than you should just give me the extra money your blowing out your exhaust pipes.

higher octane rating does nothing for power unless you have higher cr that req a slower burning fuel.
Its been proven on dyno's that a lower cr eng makes more power on lower octane so use that money to go buy more diesel parts :D

Avgas is 100 octane not 108. Avgas is GAS do not put it in your diesel. Avgas will not go bad and is good for engines that do not turn alot of rpms and have no cat. . It has alot of lead in it and lead is a lubricant for valves but lead is also corrosive. I run almost all Jet A in my truck. Can not tell a difference with it or diesel. I add Stanadyne Lubricity and Performance Formulas to it. 36k miles and my worst injector is a 1.4. Gas mileage is still 19.5 with 285's on it. Jet fuel has alot of sulfur in it too. Around 3500 ppm. I met a guy on this site that has 80k on his Duramax and only Jet A in it. No problems. Jet A is clean that is the only real advantage I see with it.

Really?

If you aint running cr of 10.XX or more than you should just give me the extra money your blowing out your exhaust pipes.

higher octane rating does nothing for power unless you have higher cr that req a slower burning fuel.
Its been proven on dyno's that a lower cr eng makes more power on lower octane so use that money to go buy more diesel parts :D

I was just about to say the same thing.

Im in the aviation industry i build and overhaul turbine engines. Jet A, is very close to diesel just a little more refined! I know people that have been running it for years. You do have to add a lubricant most people ive seen add a quart of automatic trans fluid when they fill up with jet A.

Avgas is 100 octane not 108. Avgas is GAS do not put it in your diesel. Avgas will not go bad and is good for engines that do not turn alot of rpms and have no cat. .


Yea I wasnt saying I run avgas in my Diesel, Im wanting to run JET A in my diesel. I was sayin that I run 100LL avgas and sometimes 108 in my Harley.. I always run at least 108 or higer in my dirtbike.. and neither of them have a cat.. and both are over 10.0 cr..

Thanks for the info on the Jet A guys.. That just tells me that its not going to make any difference in running it in my DMAX. So I will just stick with regular diesel and some sort of additive..

Also, a good friend of mine a few years ago was adding a gallon or so of gasoline in his DIESEL tank when he filled up every so often.. he had been doing that for over 225,000 miles on it, with no adverse side effects.. Anyone here know what reasoning would be behind this? He said he did it because some diesel mechanic somewhere said it would help out or raise the Cetane level? I dunno..

Anything that has an octane rating is most likely gasoline. Jet is not refined for an octane rating, just a freeze point for the high altitudes. JFA is not "high performance diesel." They are completely different fuels. Granted, they are closer related than Jet and Gasoline. In fact, there is some jet blended into finished diesel to keep it on spec. So straight JFA will run a diesel engine. Obviously people are using it. But a diesel engine is like a garbage disposal. You can throw just about anything in there. As for the performance aspect, I haven't tried it so no comment. Maybe in a drag race at 30,000ft

I'm in the Air Force and deal with JP8 (jet fuel) on a daily basis. There are several bases overseas that use JP8 for all diesel engines. I don't know what the FSII (icing inhibitor) and CU (static inhibitor) additives added to JP8 would do to a Duramax. I know when the Air Force switched from JP4 to JP8 we were having problem with rubber seals drying out and leaking. I don't think I would run it in my truck, but thats just me. The Air Force has a minimum of 100* flash point, but all the fuel I have tested in the last 10 yrs was somewhere between 108* and 115*, unless its JP5 (navy) and it flashes somewhere around 145*. The diesel we get flashes somewhere around 156*. I think Phlaps is right I don't think there would be any performance advantage.

The only advantage I see is that it is clean.

there is a large repair shop near me mostly big motors and a friend that works there told me they add about 3 qts. of gas to 20 gal of diesel said gives it more punch and keeps the valves cleaner they been doing it for years i have an old 85 ford diesel been doing it to that for two years

Phlaps is right...run a cetane on AVgas....ohhhhh were down! hope you aint at 30k....:banghead:

I have been running Jet A in my 06 for the last year. Never a complete tank at once. I add 2 oz of marvel mystery oil to 5 gallons, some times stanadyne complete lube an cetain booster. Jet A gets less miles per gallon ( about 2mpg) an when running higher mix ratios to pump diesel fuel, my opinion is the Horse power is lower. I base this on the launch angel when you put your foot into it. Right now its free, aircraft sump fuel, no water,with the price of diesel where it is now. I plan to be running just about pure Jet A. I know aircraft mechanics that have run VW diesel rabbits to 200,000 miles just on jet A and had no problems. All have added some lube oil in some ratio to the fuel as for a horse power increase,or performance increase not the way to go. Cetain rating must be less than pump fuel and the cetain rating is what gives you power much the same way as octain in gas. Burns slower and hotter.

I was sayin that I run 100LL avgas and sometimes 108 in my Harley.. I always run at least 108 or higer in my dirtbike.. and neither of them have a cat.. and both are over 10.0 cr..
Do you really think wasting money on race fuel does anything for your bikes??

I have been running Jet A in my 06 for the last year. Never a complete tank at once. I add 2 oz of marvel mystery oil to 5 gallons, some times stanadyne complete lube an cetain booster. Jet A gets less miles per gallon ( about 2mpg) an when running higher mix ratios to pump diesel fuel, my opinion is the Horse power is lower. I base this on the launch angel when you put your foot into it. Right now its free, aircraft sump fuel, no water,with the price of diesel where it is now. I plan to be running just about pure Jet A. I know aircraft mechanics that have run VW diesel rabbits to 200,000 miles just on jet A and had no problems. All have added some lube oil in some ratio to the fuel as for a horse power increase,or performance increase not the way to go. Cetain rating must be less than pump fuel and the cetain rating is what gives you power much the same way as octain in gas. Burns slower and hotter.

Been doing the same in my lbz. Met a guy on here with a lly that has run straight jet a with 70k plus miles with no problems. The MMO did not fare well at all in the lubricity test. Just a thought. Jet A lacks oil so it produces less heat hence lower energy content. I add Stanadyne Lubricity and Performance Formulas to it and dump 2 stroke oil in every other tank. 37k miles and my worst injector is a 1.4.

I have ran a tank full of Jet A, it was free to me at the time, ran just like regular #2 to me.

I have been running Jet A in my 06 for the last year. Never a complete tank at once. I add 2 oz of marvel mystery oil to 5 gallons, some times stanadyne complete lube an cetain booster. Jet A gets less miles per gallon ( about 2mpg) an when running higher mix ratios to pump diesel fuel, my opinion is the Horse power is lower. I base this on the launch angel when you put your foot into it. Right now its free, aircraft sump fuel, no water,with the price of diesel where it is now. I plan to be running just about pure Jet A. I know aircraft mechanics that have run VW diesel rabbits to 200,000 miles just on jet A and had no problems. All have added some lube oil in some ratio to the fuel as for a horse power increase,or performance increase not the way to go. Cetain rating must be less than pump fuel and the cetain rating is what gives you power much the same way as octain in gas. Burns slower and hotter.

You work in GNO?
lol

I am going to do the same thing with a diesel, but I am unsure of what oil to add....2 Stroke or some generic 30 or 40 weight.

Stanadyne Lubricity and Performance Formulas have worked for me.

Really?

If you aint running cr of 10.XX or more than you should just give me the extra money your blowing out your exhaust pipes.

higher octane rating does nothing for power unless you have higher cr that req a slower burning fuel.
Its been proven on dyno's that a lower cr eng makes more power on lower octane so use that money to go buy more diesel parts :D


you do know that the Harley trucks are supercharged like the Lightnings, right?? ;) Higher octane ain't a bad idea, but I'd add boost and/or timing if I was going to run a higher octane. But it's not a waste like a n/a lower compression truck would be with race gas.

Jody

I used VP race fuel in my supercharged Vette occasionally and it added quite a bit of mid-range torque and increased acceleration noticeably without changing anything else. I'm not educated on this at all but I had attributed the increase in power to changes in combustion and timing of peak cylinder pressure. The VP race fuel delayed combustion compared to pump gas and my engine really liked it. More of the down force on the piston got translated into rotating torque. The increase in octane rating probably has something to do with the change in combustion.

Increasing timing is a really poor way to make extra power when supercharging. Could prove catastrophic to your engine and isn't very effective. Better to spend your time on air flow improvements. For example, I added 70 Hp at the rear wheels just freeing up flow restrictions to the supercharger inlet. It improved efficiency and gave me 3 psi extra manifold pressure.

i have also been running jet a for the last year in my lbz, i use stanadyne lubricity formula as well. i talked to a 30 + year veterain diesel mechanic, he told me jet a was great bc it was so clean, he did not recoment using 2 cycle oil for lubricity bc it will leave carbon buildup on the injectors. i do on ocasion run diesel in the truck when i can get good fuel, but i usually run straight jet a and have had no issues yet. hope this helps. and thanks to all the oter posted bc they answered some questions for me as well.
later
ngale65

I used VP race fuel in my supercharged Vette occasionally and it added quite a bit of mid-range torque and increased acceleration noticeably without changing anything else. I'm not educated on this at all but I had attributed the increase in power to changes in combustion and timing of peak cylinder pressure. The VP race fuel delayed combustion compared to pump gas and my engine really liked it. More of the down force on the piston got translated into rotating torque. The increase in octane rating probably has something to do with the change in combustion.

Increasing timing is a really poor way to make extra power when supercharging. Could prove catastrophic to your engine and isn't very effective. Better to spend your time on air flow improvements. For example, I added 70 Hp at the rear wheels just freeing up flow restrictions to the supercharger inlet. It improved efficiency and gave me 3 psi extra manifold pressure.


very well said, hit it right on the head pretty much.

peak cylinder pressure vs. crankshaft position (degrees) is VERY important. major torque can be gained by optimizing this.


crankshaft position ATDC= more mechanical advantage offered by offset journals.

as a acft mechanic and not a diesel mech will jet A clog my cat??? I have 300 gals of sump fuel now.

AVIATION TURBINE FUEL (JET FUEL)

CIVIL JET FUELS

Aviation turbine fuels are used for powering jet and turbo-prop engined aircraft and are not to be confused with Avgas (http://www.csgnetwork.com/avgas.html). Outside former communist areas, there are currently two main grades of turbine fuel in use in civil commercial aviation : Jet A-1 and Jet A, both are kerosene type fuels. There is another grade of jet fuel, Jet B which is a wide cut kerosene (a blend of gasoline and kerosene) but it is rarely used except in very cold climates.

JET A-1

Jet A-1 is a kerosene grade of fuel suitable for most turbine engined aircraft. It is produced to a stringent internationally agreed standard, has a flash point above 38°C (100°F) and a freeze point maximum of -47°C. It is widely available outside the U.S.A. Jet A-1 meets the requirements of British specification DEF STAN 91-91 (Jet A-1), (formerly DERD 2494 (AVTUR)), ASTM specification D1655 (Jet A-1) and IATA Guidance Material (Kerosine Type), NATO Code F-35.

JET A

Jet A is a similar kerosene type of fuel, produced to an ASTM specification and normally only available in the U.S.A. It has the same flash point as Jet A-1 but a higher freeze point maximum (-40°C). It is supplied against the ASTM D1655 (Jet A) specification.

JET B

Jet B is a distillate covering the naphtha and kerosene fractions. It can be used as an alternative to Jet A-1 but because it is more difficult to handle (higher flammability), there is only significant demand in very cold climates where its better cold weather performance is important. In Canada it is supplied against the Canadian Specification CAN/CGSB 3.23

MILITARY

JP-4

JP-4 is the military equivalent of Jet B with the addition of corrosion inhibitor and anti-icing additives; it meets the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-DTL-5624U Grade JP-4. (As of Jan 5, 2004, JP-4 and 5 meet the same US Military Specification). JP-4 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-88 AVTAG/FSII (formerly DERD 2454),where FSII stands for Fuel Systems Icing Inhibitor. NATO Code F-40.

JP-5

JP-5 is a high flash point kerosene meeting the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-DTL-5624U Grade JP-5 (as of Jan 5, 2004, JP-4 and 5 meet the same US Military Specification). JP-5 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-86 AVCAT/FSII (formerly DERD 2452). NATO Code F-44.

JP-8

JP-8 is the military equivalent of Jet A-1 with the addition of corrosion inhibitor and anti-icing additives; it meets the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-DTL-83133E. JP-8 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-87 AVTUR/FSII (formerly DERD 2453). NATO Code F-34.

AVIATION FUEL ADDITIVES

Aviation fuel additives are compounds added to the fuel in very small quantities, usually measurable only in parts per million, to provide special or improved qualities. The quantity to be added and approval for its use in various grades of fuel is strictly controlled by the appropriate specifications.

A few additives in common use are as follows:

1. Anti-knock additives reduce the tendency of gasoline to detonate. Tetra-ethyl lead (TEL) is the only approved anti-knock additive for aviation use and has been used in motor and aviation gasolines since the early 1930s.

2. Anti-oxidants prevent the formation of gum deposits on fuel system components caused by oxidation of the fuel in storage and also inhibit the formation of peroxide compounds in certain jet fuels.

3. Static dissipater additives reduce the hazardous effects of static electricity generated by movement of fuel through modern high flow-rate fuel transfer systems. Static dissipater additives do not reduce the need for `bonding' to ensure electrical continuity between metal components (e.g. aircraft and fuelling equipment) nor do they influence hazards from lightning strikes.

4. Corrosion inhibitors protect ferrous metals in fuel handling systems, such as pipelines and fuel storage tanks, from corrosion. Some corrosion inhibitors also improve the lubricating properties (lubricity) of certain jet fuels.

5. Fuel System Icing Inhibitors (Anti-icing additives) reduce the freezing point of water precipitated from jet fuels due to cooling at high altitudes and prevent the formation of ice crystals which restrict the flow of fuel to the engine. This type of additive does not affect the freezing point of the fuel itself. Anti-icing additives can also provide some protection against microbiological growth in jet fuel.

6. Metal de-activators suppress the catalytic effect which some metals, particularly copper, have on fuel oxidation.

7. Biocide additives are sometimes used to combat microbiological growths in jet fuel, often by direct addition to aircraft tanks; as indicated above some anti-icing additives appear to possess biocidal properties.

8. Thermal Stability Improver additives are sometimes used in military JP-8 fuel, to produce a grade referred to as JP-8+100, to inhibit deposit formation in the high temperature areas of the aircraft fuel system.

POWER BOOSTING FLUIDS

It used to be commonplace for large piston engines to require special fluids to increase their take-off power. Similar injection systems are also incorporated in some turbo-jet and turbo-prop engines. The power increase is achieved by cooling the air consumed, to raise its density and thereby increase the weight of air available for combustion. This effect can be obtained by using water alone but it is usual to inject a mixture of methanol and water to produce a greater degree of evaporative cooling and also to provide additional fuel energy.

For piston engines, methanol/water mixtures are used and these may have 1 percent of a corrosion inhibiting oil added. The injection system may be used to compensate for the power lost when operating under high temperature and/or high altitude conditions (i.e. with low air densities) or to obtain increased take-off power under normal atmospheric conditions, by permitting higher boost pressure for a short period.

Both water alone and methanol/water mixtures are used in gas turbine engines, principally to restore the take-off power (or thrust) lost when operating under low air density conditions. Use of a corrosion inhibitor in power boost fluids supplied for these engines is not permitted.

The methanol and water used must be of very high quality to avoid formation of engine deposits. The water must be either demineralised or distilled and the only adulterant permitted in the methanol is up to 0.5 per cent of pyridine if required by local regulations as a de-naturant. In the past there were several different grades of water/methanol mixtures, e.g. 45/55/0 for turbine engines, 50/50/0 for piston engines (this was also available with 1% corrosion inhibiting oil and was designated 50/50/1) and 60/40/0, however, with decreasing demand Shell now only supplies 45/55/0. The table shows the principal characteristics of Shell demineralised water and of the commonly used methanol/water blend.

well I filled up the truck with 22gals of jet a, added stanadine drove 50miles home from work and I did not notice one differance, I guess I need my guys at work to sump fuel every night so our planes have no water in them.HEHEHE

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4006177

JP8 and Jet A are almost twin brothers. GM says it's safe to use JP8, so I see no reason that you would have problems with Jet A.