Does anybody know will I have any warranty on my 08 duramax if I use EFI live

Does anybody know will I have any warranty on my 08 duramax if I use EFI live

Technically no any changing of the ECM will result in the loss of your engines warranty.

Does anybody know will I have any warranty on my 08 duramax if I use EFI live
My dealer was very cool about this and would cover the truck as long as I did not over power it (got EFIlive just for D.P.F. delete and mild economy tune)

did they have a problem with the D.P.F delete because thats what i want to do

please use the search feature. this has been discussed thousands of times

deleting the dpf is actually against federal law unless the vehicle is for off road purposes only and on road if you get caught.
It depends on your dealer about the warranty so yes, he can void your warranty.

My dealer was very cool about this and would cover the truck as long as I did not over power it (got EFIlive just for D.P.F. delete and mild economy tune)

That's fine as long as you can get back to your dealer when you have a problem. When your on the road and have a problem another dealer may not be nearly as accomidating.

According to my lawyer, federal emissions only apply to the state that the verhicle is registered in. If you state does not comply with the federal emissions and testing it means nothing. Only applies to the state in which the vehicle is licensed, registered in.

According to my lawyer, federal emissions only apply to the state that the verhicle is registered in. If you state does not comply with the federal emissions and testing it means nothing. Only applies to the state in which the vehicle is licensed, registered in.

Your lawyer is WRONG! Section 203(a)(3)(A) and (B) of the Clean Air Act states:

"Sec. 203. (a) The following acts and the causing thereof are prohibited-
(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any
device or element of design installed on or in a motor
vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design
after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or
(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to
sell, or install, any part or component intended for use
with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle
engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or
element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or
motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use"

That is the FEDERAL statute which applies in ALL states.

The EPA has the authority to enforce the rule. However if the state has adopted the federal rules into it's state air pollution regulations (inspection and maintenance program), then the STATE has the authority to enforce the rule.

In summary - it IS illegal in ALL states to tamper with auto air pollution equipment. Whether you get caught is another matter...

Your lawyer is WRONG! Section 203(a)(3)(A) and (B) of the Clean Air Act states:

"Sec. 203. (a) The following acts and the causing thereof are prohibited-
(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any
device or element of design installed on or in a motor
vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design
after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or
(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to
sell, or install, any part or component intended for use
with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle
engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or
element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or
motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use"

That is the FEDERAL statute which applies in ALL states.

The EPA has the authority to enforce the rule. However if the state has adopted the federal rules into it's state air pollution regulations (inspection and maintenance program), then the STATE has the authority to enforce the rule.

In summary - it IS illegal in ALL states to tamper with auto air pollution equipment. Whether you get caught is another matter...

His lawyer is exactly right. The code you are referencing refers to sale and post delivery of new vehicles by new vehicle retailers. The law is designed around what can be sold in the US, not what an individual can or cannot do. This is to prevent a new vehicle dealership from removing it, or offering to remove it post sale. Once an individual takes possesion of the unit......it's no longer governed by federal law, but state law. In which case, it is entirely a state issue.

This is why you cannot find any case law anywhere on this being applied to an individual.

Other examples in practical application. Under the same act: No 2-stroke vehicle or motorcycle may be sold in the US for operation on public roadways. This is why you will not see, in any dealer currently, a street legal 2-stroke motorcycle. Now, they are perfectly legal for offroad operation, so you can still buy them (from the manf. that still make 'em). But they are offroad only. However, in all but a dozen states.........there is no law restricting them from being made street legal. Add the safety equipment, take it to DMV for an inspection, and you get issued a standard vehicle title. This is why I have a street legal KDX220. Some states have created there own laws which apply to the individual........most have not.

As soon as I hear the term "lawyer" thrown in a sentence I throw up in my mouth a little bit.

His lawyer is exactly right. The code you are referencing refers to sale and post delivery of new vehicles by new vehicle retailers. The law is designed around what can be sold in the US, not what an individual can or cannot do.

Nope his lawyer is still wrong and so are you...

In 1990 the Clean Air Act was amended with the intention of including anybody, before OR after the sale, including the owner from tampering with an emission control device. This has been further clarified by several EPA guidance memos since 1990, two of which are quoted here.

This is an except out of the EPA guidance memo dated 4/97:

"April 1997 Note Regarding Memorandum 1A

From Cliff Tyree, USEPA, Office of Mobile Sources


CAA REQUIREMENTS: AFTERMARKET CONVERSIONS

In section 203(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act the following acts are
prohibited:

(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device
or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor
vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title
prior to sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or

(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use; or ........

Section 205 of the CAA

(a) Violations. - Any person who violates sections 203(a)(1), 203(a)(4), or 203(a)(5) or any manufacturer or dealer who violates section 203(a)(3)(A) shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $25,000. Any person other than a manufacturer or dealer who violates section 203(a)3(A) or any person who violates section 203(a)(3)B) shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $2,500. Any such violation with respect to paragraph (1), (3)(A), or (4) of section 203(a) shall constitute a separate offense with respect to each motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine. Any such violation with respect to section 203(a)(3)(B) shall constitute a separate offense with respect to each part or component. any person who violates section 203(a)(2) shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $25,000 per day of violation."

Also from the EPA Civil Enforcement guidance updated in 10/97:

Clean Air Act Enforcement EPA may issue an order to any person or company who violates the Clean Air Act. The order may impose a civil penalty plus recovery of any economic benefit of non-compliance and may also require correction of the violation.
Who must comply with the Clean Air Act? Manufacturers, repairers, consumers.

What are the penalties for noncompliance? Penalties for violation of stationary source requirements, fuels requirements, or most motor vehicle emission requirements (by a company or dealer) may be up to $27,500 per violation (per day or per motor vehicle/ engine). Violations of the tampering requirements (by a person other than a company or dealer), or defeat device provisions by anyone may incur penalties of up to $2,750 per vehicle or engine.
While it may (or may not) be true that no individual has been prosecuted at the federal level, certainly several repair facilities have, including Cole Muffler who was fined $238K for purposely installing 2-way cats on autos that required 3-ways.

As far as your claim that after a vehicle is delivered to the customer federal law no longer applies, but only state law:

...no state can have a weaker clean air program than the federal rule. If a state has an approved clean air program, it must be at least as stringent as the federal program. Absent a state program, the federal rule is fully applicable and enforceable... [U.S.C. Title 42, Chapter 85, Subchapter 2, Part A, Section 7543]

Finally, motorcycles are considered in the same class as Heavy Duty trucks for the purpose of the clean air act, an entirely different section of the rule so your analogy is not apples to apples...

And here is another EPA Guidance document that makes it clear that it is illegal for owners / individuals to tamper or remove emission equipment. Substitute "DPF" for "catalytic converter":

:Handshake:boxing::nutkick:it's on

Each night around 9:30-10:15 at night I get a faint to strong smell of weed, which is coming from the lawyer's house behind mine!!

That's where dealership relation falls in play. If u know the guys very well, you can run a 10,000 Horsepower tune and add 8 turbos and they probably will work on your truck. Get one of those big city asshole dealers than they'll try to figure out a way to deny warranty work if your tires a 3 inches bigger than stock.

Each night around 9:30-10:15 at night I get a faint to strong smell of weed, which is coming from the lawyer's house behind mine!!

What - you're saying a lawyer might actually do something illegal??

:muahaha:

Nope his lawyer is still wrong and so are you...


As far as your claim that after a vehicle is delivered to the customer federal law no longer applies, but only state law:

...no state can have a weaker clean air program than the federal rule. If a state has an approved clean air program, it must be at least as stringent as the federal program. Absent a state program, the federal rule is fully applicable and enforceable... [U.S.C. Title 42, Chapter 85, Subchapter 2, Part A, Section 7543]

Finally, motorcycles are considered in the same class as Heavy Duty trucks for the purpose of the clean air act, an entirely different section of the rule so your analogy is not apples to apples...

Snipped a lot of verbage for brevity.

You're still wrong........sorry. As I said.........it does not apply to individuals, unless that individuals state 1) has an emissions requirement 2) verifies the existence of the emissions equipment 3) actually prosecutes as opposed to simply failing the vehicle until it becomes compliant.

Any time you find an example of case law showing an individual being charged for an EPA violation under federal law for something that individual did to his own vehicle.........feel free to post it and prove me wrong.

My motorcycle analogy was to provide an example of a federal law, that no longer applied once an individual took possession, as such it stands.

Nevermind you seem to know it all...

But still, if you bothered to actually read the guidance you will see that individuals can't tamper with emissions equipment even if the state doesn't have a program - because if the state doesn't have a program, then the federal one is in place - its as simple as that.

Just because an individual hasn't been prosecuted (and I don't know or care if anyone has), it doesn't mean it can't happen.

I would be interested in a list of states were it is LEGAL to tear off emission equipment however...

End of story.

:blahblah: WHO CARES you are in the wrong place maybe take a look around that's what we do here, change things make trucks go faster, louder, bigger, badder, more smoke, awesome burnouts. Shasta what is it you are looking for.

Nevermind you seem to know it all...

But still, if you bothered to actually read the guidance you will see that individuals can't tamper with emissions equipment even if the state doesn't have a program - because if the state doesn't have a program, then the federal one is in place - its as simple as that.

Just because an individual hasn't been prosecuted (and I don't know or care if anyone has), it doesn't mean it can't happen.

I would be interested in a list of states were it is LEGAL to tear off emission equipment however...

End of story.

So you have nothing then. That's what I thought. Meanwhile......the rest of us will go on modding our trucks............least until we end up in jail;-)

:blahblah: WHO CARES you are in the wrong place maybe take a look around that's what we do here, change things make trucks go faster, louder, bigger, badder, more smoke, awesome burnouts. Shasta what is it you are looking for.

I don't give a rats ass what you do or don't do to your truck. I don't give a shit what you take off your truck, leave on, plug up or reprogram. All I was trying to do was to correct an error about the legality of removing emissions equipment. Nothing more. Why does that bother you so?

And not everyone posting here is modding their truck or even interested in doing it. I couldn't care less about it. I'm happy with my truck just the way it is. But there's plenty of room here for everyone... help, advice, modding, whatever. Look around yourself :rolleyes:

So you have nothing then. That's what I thought. Meanwhile......the rest of us will go on modding our trucks............least until we end up in jail;-)

And you have nothing either - I don't see any list of states where you say you can legally tamper with emissions equipment... I provided the statute citations that make my case. All you have provided is "my lawyer sez..."

My lawyer said I wouldn't lose anything during my divorce either - guess he didn't know shit; maybe yours doesn't either. Prove me wrong - give me just one state's statute citation that makes your case.

And why would you say "until we end up in jail?" I thought you said it was all perfectly legal...

Sorry for the inconvenience. I'm done.

Sorry for the inconvenience. I'm done.

Don't let the door hit you on yer 4th point of contact on the way out.

I have a question....
If it is illegal to manufacture a device to render emissions inoperative how are these companies getting away with the DPF delete programming? If I am reading those articles correctly then it would not matter if the truck was off road, raced, or it does not matter the use - if it was equipped then it must remain equipped if you hold those articles to the letter of the law.

Don't let the door hit you on yer 4th point of contact on the way out.

x2

So you have nothing then. That's what I thought. Meanwhile......the rest of us will go on modding our trucks............least until we end up in jail;-)


I can see it now!

"What were you in for?" - Murder, rape, kidnapping etc

"And you?" Robbery, theft, fraud etc

"And you?" Drug manufacturing, dealing/running cartel.

"And finally you sir?" "Uhh, I pulled the diesel particulate filter off of my truck.":uhoh2:

I can see it now!

"What were you in for?" - Murder, rape, kidnapping etc

"And you?" Robbery, theft, fraud etc

"And you?" Drug manufacturing, dealing/running cartel.

"And finally you sir?" "Uhh, I pulled the diesel particulate filter off of my truck.":uhoh2:
:funnypost:funnypost:funnypost:funnypost

Does anybody know will I have any warranty on my 08 duramax if I use EFI live

The 08 ECMs contain a programming history that can be checked by the dealer at any time. This was not the case on earlier models.

Most hot rodders will purchase a second ECM and keep the original in the truck for dealership visits. 2006-2008 ECMS are the easiest to swap out. 3 minutes or less.

That said, EFILive does give you control of the DPF System, in case you needed to do some testing of the system. :D

The FACT is that it is ILLEGAL to tamper with emissions equipment on a street driven and registered vehicle. The fine for removing catalytic converters can be upwards of $10,000 in worst case scenarios. The DPF falls into the same catergory as a catalytic converter. If you get pulled over by a cop, REGARDLESS of your local emissions laws (we have none, we have no testing of any sort) and he knows what he is looking for and notices that you do not have a cat/s or a DPF he CAN write you a citation and they NORMALLY are in the $200 range, of course that amount would differ based on where you live. Emissions control is a federal regulation, you removed your DPF, you are breaking a federal law, not a local one.

Now will this stop me from removing it? Hell no, ive been breaking emissions laws since I was old enough to drive. But the fact stands that it is illegal and you can be cited for it.

Everybody knows it is illegal to remove the dpf thats why I would NEVER run my drw ltz anywhere except off road w/o it. That being said for my offroad use only I would like to delete this feature and it sounds like with a second ecm i could still maintain my warranty any response is much appreciated. If this is the case does anybody know the best place to get one.

I normally keep core LMM ECMs in stock. However right now I'm out. :(

Is it correct about the warranty issue and how much does the ecm run

The ECMs run $400.

Technically anything you do to modify your truck could be used against you to void your warranty.

I am a little green in this area will they be able to tell i have swapped ecms if i put the stock one in before it had to go to the dealer

I am a little green in this area will they be able to tell i have swapped ecms if i put the stock one in before it had to go to the dealer

No.

That is great news i will be in touch soon when do you expect to have more in stock

The FACT is that it is ILLEGAL to tamper with emissions equipment on a street driven and registered vehicle. The fine for removing catalytic converters can be upwards of $10,000 in worst case scenarios. The DPF falls into the same catergory as a catalytic converter. If you get pulled over by a cop, REGARDLESS of your local emissions laws (we have none, we have no testing of any sort) and he knows what he is looking for and notices that you do not have a cat/s or a DPF he CAN write you a citation and they NORMALLY are in the $200 range, of course that amount would differ based on where you live. Emissions control is a federal regulation, you removed your DPF, you are breaking a federal law, not a local one.

Now will this stop me from removing it? Hell no, ive been breaking emissions laws since I was old enough to drive. But the fact stands that it is illegal and you can be cited for it.


Actually.........not true. Again.......federal law has no applicability. Now, if your state has an emissions program, and an inspection, and a set of tampering penalties......your cop in the above scenario could write you a citation for a state violation. Mostly though...at the state level.....you simply fail the test and you can't register the vehicle.

If your state has nothing...........your local LEO can't cite you for shit........you'll notice all your LEO citations have a place for state code violation......nothing for federal. Local law enforcement does not, and can not, enforce federal law and neither can your local justice court. Now, there are rare instances where local law enforcment will have shared resource agreements in place.........but there isn't any in existence for emissions laws.....feel free to post one if you know of any......I sure don't.

This is true no matter what some cops claim. Like the time I got a citation from the Sheriff's department for speeding on BLM land.........I shredded his dumb ass in court.........he looked like a total tool, pretty funny actually. The justice court judge reamed the stupid cop in front of the entire court room too, for wasting all our time. The judge also suggested that we file a lawsuit against the county and the county sheriff's department for unlawful detainment......which would have been really funny.

Which is irrelevant, because once the vehicle passes into private ownership.......there is no longer any federal applicability.

As I've stated numerous times........and nobody can yet do............produce one piece of case law where an individual was charged with a federal crime for modifying his own vehicle. It doesn't exist. Now, you can probably find some poor sod from the people's republic of California that got hit with a state emissions violation........but you'll not find one with a federal violation.

If somebody comes up with something......I have no issue with apologizing and saying I'm wrong. To date......nobody has.

Once the vehicle passes from the market to private ownership.......it's a state enforcement issue. Feds can't do shit all, nada, zip, zilch. That is......until congress passes an act that grants the federal government the ability to do so.


Think about it folks.........when was the last time you heard of an FBI catalytic converter sting?

I bet some of you guys are afraid to pull the tags off your mattresses too.

I can see it now!

"What were you in for?" - Murder, rape, kidnapping etc

"And you?" Robbery, theft, fraud etc

"And you?" Drug manufacturing, dealing/running cartel.

"And finally you sir?" "Uhh, I pulled the diesel particulate filter off of my truck.":uhoh2:


LMAO

BTW, you'll notice that there aren't any criminal penalties.....at the Federal level........for any violation (like the dealer removing the DPF for you), the EPA has no recourse other than issuing an order for civil penalty. Which means a civil court hearing. This is the other reason why I'm always laughing when people run around screaming about it being illegal, there's no criminal code! And even if the law applied to an individual making a change to his own personal vehicle (it doesn't).........the absolute worse that can happen is a civil order for a 2500 dollar fine. This from an agency with no enforcement powers, no powers of investigation, and no supporting criminal code. How many fines do you think they hand out to individuals?

Anyway......the whole thing is silly, IMHO. The only problem anybody removing this stuff will have.......is with their local emissions. And they aren't going to do anything more than deny your registration. This is reality.

Hey Trippin. Ive been meaning to send you the one I screwed up back in Nov. If ya dont remember EFI got unpluged from the computer during a flash then I couldnt ever get it to see the ECM. But if you was able to fix it.....Could you flash it back to stock so I can leave that one as my stock one.

I know that it is late here, and was heading to bed as tomorrow brings tons of work. I was thinking about a conversation that I had with the owner of the business that I work for about this emmissions stuff. I hope that I do not screw this up but here goes.

The government along with the environmentalists, or whatever you want to call them, decided to make us run ULSD. This swap of fuels also took away a percentage of the energy from the fuel...Some one chime in with that number. When doing this and adding more equipment (DPF), they took some of the power away from the trucks. This decreased mileage and effiecency. Then they decided to flush the dang things by dumping fuel through the motor to clean the filters. This also hurts MPG.

So in summary the same people that want to keep the environment clean and stop poluting the air, are the same people that make us use twice as much fuel today to get the same MPG and Power that we had yesterday....???????????????


:banghead:


:stirthepo

Maybe I am wrong.....

I bet some of you guys are afraid to pull the tags off your mattresses too.


Hey, are you saying that we can do that?:)

Oh my!!


Bigfeet

I normally keep core LMM ECMs in stock. However right now I'm out. :(

How easy is to swap them?
What are the steps?
Any drawing on how to?:rolleyes:

I can see it now!

"What were you in for?" - Murder, rape, kidnapping etc

"And you?" Robbery, theft, fraud etc

"And you?" Drug manufacturing, dealing/running cartel.

"And finally you sir?" "Uhh, I pulled the diesel particulate filter off of my truck.":uhoh2: good stuff i love it.made me laugh.

I have a question....
If it is illegal to manufacture a device to render emissions inoperative how are these companies getting away with the DPF delete programming? If I am reading those articles correctly then it would not matter if the truck was off road, raced, or it does not matter the use - if it was equipped then it must remain equipped if you hold those articles to the letter of the law.


They sell it as an "off-road use only" tune. IE: a truck that is going to remain on the farm and not be driven up and down the highways.

How easy is to swap them?
What are the steps?
Any drawing on how to?:rolleyes:
Look underneath ur hood, between the raditor and driver side battery. Pull it loose from the holder. There is two plugs on the side. To get them out there is little plastic handles on the top pull em up. You see how they work, kinda like a rachet. Good idea the have ur batteries unhooked too.

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa203.txt

(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any
device or element of design installed on or in a motor
vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regula-
tions under this title prior to its sale and delivery to the
ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or
render inoperative any such device or element of design
after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser;

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa205.txt

Any person other than a manufacturer or
dealer who violates section 203(a)(3)(A) or any person who
violates section 203(a)(3)(B) shall be subject to a civil penalty
of not more than $2,500. Any such violation with respect to
paragraph (1),(3)(A), or (4) of section 203(a) shall constitute a
separate offense with respect to each motor vehicle or motor
vehicle engine. Any such violation with respect to section
203(a)(3)(B) shall constitute a separate offense with respect to
each part or component. Any person who violates section 203(a)(2)
shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $25,000 per
day of violation.

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa113.txt
Way too long to get into.

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa304.txt
You can tattle on people / companies if you want to.




I can find nothing that exempts off-road uses from factory smog equipment from the clean air act. (If anyone can link it)

Your lawyer is an idiot. He/She does not deal with epa litigation, or you would have been told they are after bigger fish, like the people that sell the delete pipes, and software/hardware to defeat the computers. You know blocking the egr, and the "pcv reroute" are both under 203.3.a?
In theory that could be $2,500 for the cat delete pipe, $2,500 for the dpf delete pipe, $2,500 for the efi live, $2,500 for the egr blocker plate, $2,500 for the pcv reroute, as it is not in the intake anymore, it is vented into the atmosphere. That is $12,500 in civil fines, plus you can't drive your truck. Do I think Anyone will be targeted by the feds? No.

No, I cannot find anyone worth PROSECUTION by the EPA, But "the squeeky wheel gets the grease" So if we all strip off out cats, and dpf's, and blow smoke on the car next to us, then the epa will crack down more. It would seem to make sence that if you put your stuff back before the fines start, VS try to fight it, then you would not be prosecuted.

Every wonder why the dpf's came around? Smokey diesels, all they do is trap soot. The cats help with Acid rain, the egr lowers Nitrogen Oxides, PCV routes blow by back into the motor so it goes through the cat.

More stuff to read.

http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/seributra_d/ETest.htm

I have a question....
If it is illegal to manufacture a device to render emissions inoperative how are these companies getting away with the DPF delete programming? If I am reading those articles correctly then it would not matter if the truck was off road, raced, or it does not matter the use - if it was equipped then it must remain equipped if you hold those articles to the letter of the law.


They report the devices are only for Off Road purposes

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa203.txt

(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any
device or element of design installed on or in a motor
vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regula-
tions under this title prior to its sale and delivery to the
ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or
render inoperative any such device or element of design
after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser;

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa205.txt

Any person other than a manufacturer or
dealer who violates section 203(a)(3)(A) or any person who
violates section 203(a)(3)(B) shall be subject to a civil penalty
of not more than $2,500. Any such violation with respect to
paragraph (1),(3)(A), or (4) of section 203(a) shall constitute a
separate offense with respect to each motor vehicle or motor
vehicle engine. Any such violation with respect to section
203(a)(3)(B) shall constitute a separate offense with respect to
each part or component. Any person who violates section 203(a)(2)
shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $25,000 per
day of violation.

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa113.txt
Way too long to get into.

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa304.txt
You can tattle on people / companies if you want to.




I can find nothing that exempts off-road uses from factory smog equipment from the clean air act. (If anyone can link it)

Your lawyer is an idiot. He/She does not deal with epa litigation, or you would have been told they are after bigger fish, like the people that sell the delete pipes, and software/hardware to defeat the computers. You know blocking the egr, and the "pcv reroute" are both under 203.3.a?
In theory that could be $2,500 for the cat delete pipe, $2,500 for the dpf delete pipe, $2,500 for the efi live, $2,500 for the egr blocker plate, $2,500 for the pcv reroute, as it is not in the intake anymore, it is vented into the atmosphere. That is $12,500 in civil fines, plus you can't drive your truck. Do I think Anyone will be targeted by the feds? No.

No, I cannot find anyone worth PROSECUTION by the EPA, But "the squeeky wheel gets the grease" So if we all strip off out cats, and dpf's, and blow smoke on the car next to us, then the epa will crack down more. It would seem to make sence that if you put your stuff back before the fines start, VS try to fight it, then you would not be prosecuted.

Every wonder why the dpf's came around? Smokey diesels, all they do is trap soot. The cats help with Acid rain, the egr lowers Nitrogen Oxides, PCV routes blow by back into the motor so it goes through the cat.

More stuff to read.

http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/seributra_d/ETest.htm

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, as I've explained repeatedly.......the lawyer was exactly right. The reason why you can't find any example of an individual "being prosecuted" is because................the epa can't "prosecute" anybody.

Again...........I've repeatedly asked...........if you believe that EPA regulation, followed by a memo within the EPA constitutes Federal Law regarding what an individual can or can not do with their own personal vehicle.............find ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE. Just one!

And BTW.......some of you need to go back to high school and retake Civics. This time pay attention.........then you would understand what "issue an order for a civil penalty" means.

Thank you.......

I pitty you.
You spew propaganda, without merrit, and just because you can. The internet is a great place for people to get up on their soap box, and run their mouths (keyboards) without fear of anyone doing anything.
I (and several others) have shown you the statues yet you continue to say they don't exist. One of these days someone is going to shoot a plume of diesel smoke on someone who cares, and we will see what happens.
I just hope the stupidity of people doesn't cause the tree huggers to go to the tractor pulls, and drag strips looking for trucks that should have DPF's, and bust them when they leave.
It is really easy to follow a '08 that shoots smoke down the track, and nail them when they hit the street, because they all should have dpf's.

This thread is like pissing into the wind, there is no point. You are so sure you are right that nothing else matters. So live well, and be well.

ewbish

Care to respond?

DPF Fines (be wary)

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248462

Looks like maybe someone has gotten nailed.

ewbish

Care to respond?

DPF Fines (be wary)

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248462

Looks like maybe someone has gotten nailed.
Yeah they will go after a business. The lil muffler shop around my house wouldnt even weld tips on my Mustang a few years ago cause it didnt have ne cats. He was scared of being fined. But Im with Ewbish. I have never heard of a person being charged with tampering with exhaust.

Here is some how 2's on DPF delet

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197360

ewbish

Care to respond?

DPF Fines (be wary)

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248462

Looks like maybe someone has gotten nailed.

I had a much better response.......but it got deleted and I got clicked for a couple of days;-)

Anyhow.......my brother's, nephew's, 2nd cousin said he heard that the local Pizza Hut's manager's sister's boyfriend got a ticket...........is not what I would call an example of "case law".

For starters........and anyone can follow up here........the story refers to "pigs". Well, if we are to assume local cops........what did they write the citation for? If there isn't an applicable state law, what did that citation actually say? You see.....cops can't just "make it up". A local cop.....cannot enforce federal law in the absence of a shared resource agreement......and the EPA reg is a civil offense.......not criminal. Basically......I call BS all around on that story. Quite frankly, it has all the signs of being essentially fabricated.

And another thing........we are still apparently having a tough time with the entire "civil penalty" thing. The mere fact that "jail time" came up tells me.........shenanigans. It's a BS story. Maybe shop got busted under a state law and said state has a criminal penalty (CA or MA would NOT surprise me here)......maybe not. As an example of a federal violation.........it has more holes than the cheese on my hoagie I had for lunch today.

So, again........I present the challenge. The internet is a pretty damn big place. If in fact, an individual can be prosecuted under a federal emission law........there must be at least one single example of it. We live in the most prosecutorial country in the world........with a higher percentage of our citizens behind bars than any other country in the world.........so excuse me if the explanation of "they just haven't yet" doesn't fly. They haven't.......because they can't.

In fact.....I think they'd have a hell of a time even imposing a fine on a mod shop. Today, everything from the vent on your fuel tank, to the exhaust, including such things as the intake manifold, heck, just about every single component of the engine that touches fuel or exhaust (your emissions warranty that came with your owner's manual has a complete list of the what is considered part of the emissions system). Bottom line is.........you can't do ANYTHING that doesn't affect the emissions system.......short of hanging an air freshener from the rear view mirror. This would mean that we have essentially a multi-billion dollar aftermarket industry that is completely illegal, yet completely ignored by the same government that will rain down a 30 member interdiction task force complete with MP5's and black kevlar on a HS locker room because some 15 yr old sold a dollar doobie?

Or send a dozen armed and kevlare'd federal agents to enforce a child custody order?

Come on people. I'm sure the day is coming.......probably not to far in the future.......heck, Obama wants to set our thermostats for us.....but right now, nobody is going to go to jail on a federal rap for pulling off their DPF, no matter how many times folks post the same excerpt from the EPA.

Here is some how 2's on DPF delet

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197360
Here is my how too.......:weld: :stick_out:Moon:

I had a much better response.......but it got deleted and I got clicked for a couple of days;-)

Anyhow.......my brother's, nephew's, 2nd cousin said he heard that the local Pizza Hut's manager's sister's boyfriend got a ticket...........is not what I would call an example of "case law".

For starters........and anyone can follow up here........the story refers to "pigs". Well, if we are to assume local cops........what did they write the citation for? If there isn't an applicable state law, what did that citation actually say? You see.....cops can't just "make it up". A local cop.....cannot enforce federal law in the absence of a shared resource agreement......and the EPA reg is a civil offense.......not criminal. Basically......I call BS all around on that story. Quite frankly, it has all the signs of being essentially fabricated.

And another thing........we are still apparently having a tough time with the entire "civil penalty" thing. The mere fact that "jail time" came up tells me.........shenanigans. It's a BS story. Maybe shop got busted under a state law and said state has a criminal penalty (CA or MA would NOT surprise me here)......maybe not. As an example of a federal violation.........it has more holes than the cheese on my hoagie I had for lunch today.

So, again........I present the challenge. The internet is a pretty damn big place. If in fact, an individual can be prosecuted under a federal emission law........there must be at least one single example of it. We live in the most prosecutorial country in the world........with a higher percentage of our citizens behind bars than any other country in the world.........so excuse me if the explanation of "they just haven't yet" doesn't fly. They haven't.......because they can't.

In fact.....I think they'd have a hell of a time even imposing a fine on a mod shop. Today, everything from the vent on your fuel tank, to the exhaust, including such things as the intake manifold, heck, just about every single component of the engine that touches fuel or exhaust (your emissions warranty that came with your owner's manual has a complete list of the what is considered part of the emissions system). Bottom line is.........you can't do ANYTHING that doesn't affect the emissions system.......short of hanging an air freshener from the rear view mirror. This would mean that we have essentially a multi-billion dollar aftermarket industry that is completely illegal, yet completely ignored by the same government that will rain down a 30 member interdiction task force complete with MP5's and black kevlar on a HS locker room because some 15 yr old sold a dollar doobie?

Or send a dozen armed and kevlare'd federal agents to enforce a child custody order?

Come on people. I'm sure the day is coming.......probably not to far in the future.......heck, Obama wants to set our thermostats for us.....but right now, nobody is going to go to jail on a federal rap for pulling off their DPF, no matter how many times folks post the same excerpt from the EPA.

:lol:

After reading all the interesting comments, I figured out why California wants to start smog testing dielsels in 2010.

Not sure about GVW on our trucks but it is a first step. What do You think they will do next? Yep Trucks and who knows, maybe even off road vehicles.

My Guess to stop all the delete emmision stuff and put money into the till.

PS. They want to test classic cars too. What a Rip!

There is an easy answer to that one.

Move.


Bigfeet

That is a great consideration! Maybe after I retire:)

Nevada and Florida don't have personal income tax. Both are popular places to retire to for money reasons..

I am a little green in this area will they be able to tell i have swapped ecms if i put the stock one in before it had to go to the dealer
I was doing alittle reading over on EFI forum about this issue. And post #19 was very insterting. "didint work on mine i put a completley new un modded ecm in my truck and it still showed all my old check sums from my previous ecm. wich meens to me the info is stored also somewhere else. ambey the tcm not sure" So has anybody took their truck in for service with an switch ECM. Wish I knew someone that let me borrow their ECM and see if this hold water. But here is the thread and alot of info on EFI and how they can tell if ya had it or any other programmer on your truck.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=8471&page=2

The FACT is that it is ILLEGAL to tamper with emissions equipment on a street driven and registered vehicle. The fine for removing catalytic converters can be upwards of $10,000 in worst case scenarios. The DPF falls into the same catergory as a catalytic converter. If you get pulled over by a cop, REGARDLESS of your local emissions laws (we have none, we have no testing of any sort) and he knows what he is looking for and notices that you do not have a cat/s or a DPF he CAN write you a citation and they NORMALLY are in the $200 range, of course that amount would differ based on where you live. Emissions control is a federal regulation, you removed your DPF, you are breaking a federal law, not a local one.

Now will this stop me from removing it? Hell no, ive been breaking emissions laws since I was old enough to drive. But the fact stands that it is illegal and you can be cited for it.


I beg to differ, having been a municipal cop for 26 years, if the city or state does not make it a crime (law/punishment), for a federal "regulation", the "local" cop cannot write a ticket/citation for it. It's simply out of his jurirdiction (as are most immigration laws.) The same does not apply for federal lands like National Parks/Dunes, THEY are federal cops and HAVE the authority and jurisdiction....


on edit: And I didn't read to the end of the thread, cause this has essentially been said..

Well, GM now claims they can see if any of the last 10 ECM programs were other than factory programs. In the past several TSB's indicated they didn't have a way to detect if a non factory cal had been installed and then replaced by a factory cal. I guess the question is, do EFI/predator etc. have different cal ID and verification numbers than factory cal?

Here is text from a June TSB:

If a vehicle comes in for service for a driveability/powertrain concern as a result of a Power-Up Kit installation, the
dealership technician now can read the last 10 engine calibration part numbers and CVN history using a Tech 2 ®.
The dealership technician would input each ECM calibration part number into the SPS/TIS2WEB CVN database to
confirm the CVN history information. Refer to Tech 2 path table in this bulletin to verify ECM calibration.2007-
2008 LMM Tech 2 Powertrain Output Controls Path Table for NON-GM ECM Calibration
1.
2. Build the vehicle with the Tech 2.
3. Select F0: Engine Control Module.
4. Select F5: Module Identification Information.
5. Select F1: Programming History.
6. Turn Ignition On and Engine Off. Press ENTER Key to Continue. Important: An original production engine
operation part number programmed in the ECM from the supplier, which is the last part number shown,
would not be in the SPS/TIS2WEB database.
7. Record the Calibration I.D. Numbers and Verification Numbers from the Tech 2 Programming History Screen.
8. From SPS/TIS2WEB, record the Calibration Part Number into the CVN Database. Get CVN.
• If the CVN does not match the CVN database, an unauthorized engine calibration part was flash
programmed into the ECM.
• If the CVN matches the CVN database, we can assume a Power-Up Kit that flash programs engine
calibrations was not used.
2005-2007 LLY and LBZ Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN)
1.
2. Go to TIS2WEB
3. Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"
4. Enter VIN
5. Select "Get Cal ID"
6. Select "ECM Engine Control Module"
7. Select "Next"
8. Select "Complete History"
9. Print
10. Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2®
11. Plug in the Tech 2®
12. Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle
13. Select "Powertrain"
14. Select "Engine"
15. *Select "Engine Control Module"
16. *Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not
available.
17. *If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in
order to display the calibration information.
18. Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification
Numbers (CVN) on the printout.
* Steps may vary by controller.
Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM
issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.
If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified
calibration has been installed.
If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN
information.
If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to
document the case -- a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2® screen showing the VIN and the
CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout.