with the high fuel prices has anyone tried these hydrogen generators that use water to produce hho. they claim a 40-80 % increase in MPG. our local news tested one on a dodge durango before was 10mpg after was 18.3

I know of some fleets using it. They claim some gain im mileage, HP and torque, but not in the range that you're looking for. One thing is for sure, it that it will clean everything up.

I went to a a meeting with a bunch of Trucking company owners, mechanics and engine manufacturers. They put a truck on the Dyno with and without Hydrigen and they was absolutly no gain or loss in mileage, power or torque. Needless to say the companies that have already spent 10K to add the system to their trucks and the Hydrogen Generator mfgr ha da little egg on thier face. They actually projected the ECM and Dyno displays right up on the wall for all to watch.

The mileage increase with the Durango was driving technique, not the hydrogen generator gizmo. It takes as much energy to make hydrogen gas as you get from it. This is the same reason hydrogen fuel cell technology hasn't panned out, you can't make something from nothing.

Please see my signature

Hoax....

A builder I do work for installed one on his E150 no gains of any kind.

The mileage increase with the Durango was driving technique, not the hydrogen generator gizmo. It takes as much energy to make hydrogen gas as you get from it. This is the same reason hydrogen fuel cell technology hasn't panned out, you can't make something from nothing.
how can a 10 amp draw on a alt cost you a 3-4 mpg gain??? this is all it is taking to produce the hydrogen in the amount of 1 1/2 liter pr minute this is not a replacement for gas just a supplement to help. if you pay $10 k for one your nuts.. they cost around $800 or you can build one for $150 at home.

how can a 10 amp draw on a alt cost you a 3-4 mpg gain??? this is all it is taking to produce the hydrogen in the amount of 1 1/2 liter pr minute this is not a replacement for gas just a supplement to help. if you pay $10 k for one your nuts.. they cost around $800 or you can build one for $150 at home.

Please explain how to build one at home? I would love to experiment!!

look on you tube for hydrogen generators 1000's of videos on it. large pvc pipe 8-10 " around some ss wire or plates in the water w/ power to them a air tight cap w/ a backflow preventer & a hose to your intake.. when work slows down i'm going to build some a few different ways.. good luck let me know how it goes

how can a 10 amp draw on a alt cost you a 3-4 mpg gain??? this is all it is taking to produce the hydrogen in the amount of 1 1/2 liter pr minute this is not a replacement for gas just a supplement to help. if you pay $10 k for one your nuts.. they cost around $800 or you can build one for $150 at home.

Depending on the driving style of the operator, a Durango can get as low as 10 mpg or as high as 20 mpg. Same vehicle, same course, same weather, same everything - different driver. The hydrogen generator has nothing to do with it. But that 10 amps of electricity will only produce 10 amps worth of hydrogen, it's a zero gain. And 10 amps worth of hydrogen is next to nothing.

My girlfriends Durango already gets 18.5 mpg.

Try this: http://www.youcandriveonwater.com/ ;)

Try this: http://www.youcandriveonwater.com/ ;)

I've been driving on water for YEARS. (of course, I didn't get anywhere)

webpage looks like a PB Blaster can. This is where chemistry/stoichemetry (I failed english) would come in handy.

Depending on the driving style of the operator, a Durango can get as low as 10 mpg or as high as 20 mpg. Same vehicle, same course, same weather, same everything - different driver. The hydrogen generator has nothing to do with it. But that 10 amps of electricity will only produce 10 amps worth of hydrogen, it's a zero gain. And 10 amps worth of hydrogen is next to nothing.
It's a net loser for the user from the get-go. I guess it may work well for the sellers' bank accounts, though.

The alternator is maybe 80% efficient, so that means that for each 745.7 watt-hours (1 horsepower-hour) of mechanical energy provided by the engine (a little of which is absorbed by the drive belt), less than 600 watt-hours of electricity is produced by the alternator.

The production of hydrogen via electrolysis is about 50% to 75% energy-efficient, so that 600 watt-hours of electricity yields roughly 300 to 400 watt-hours of potential chemical energy in the hydrogen. By the way, most large-scale commercial hydrogen production is from natural gas (Methane, CH4), because conversion is usually cheaper than electrolysis even when you have lots of electricity from the grid to work with.

Then, when that hydrogen is burned in an internal combustion engine, most of it is converted to heat, resulting in maybe 70 watt-hours of mechanical energy at the flywheel.

To recap: using electricity from the alternator to generate hydrogen via electrolysis and then burning that hydrogen in an engine returns roughly 1/10th of the additional energy it consumes.

Next question: What about using a fully-charged battery instead of the alternator to generate hydrogen via electrolysis? That would work. But it would work a lot better if instead of generating hydrogen, you were to use that battery to run an electric motor in the drivetrain instead. You'd then have a plug-in hybrid vehicle.

According to website, 1 quart of water lasts up to 900 miles. So how much hh0 can be liberated from a quart of H2O?? I'm not sure, but it can't be much compared to a tank of 2 of gas.

From Wiki:

The energy efficiency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency) of water electrolysis varies widely. The efficiency is a measure of what fraction of electrical energy used is actually contained within the hydrogen. Some of the electrical energy is converted to heat, a useless by-product. Some reports quote efficiencies between 50% and 70%[1] (http://www.hyweb.de/Knowledge/w-i-energiew-eng3.html) This efficiency is based on the Lower Heating Value of Hydrogen. The Lower Heating Value of Hydrogen is thermal energy released when hydrogen is combusted. This does not represent the total amount of energy within the hydrogen, hence the efficiency is lower than a more strict definition. Other reports quote the theoretical maximum efficiency of electrolysis as being between 80% and 94%.[2] (http://bellona.org/filearchive/fil_Hydrogen_6-2002.pdf). The theoretical maximum considers the total amount of energy absorbed by both the hydrogen and oxygen. These values refer only to the efficiency of converting electrical energy into hydrogen's chemical energy. The energy lost in generating the electricity is not included. For instance, when considering a power plant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_plant) that converts the heat of nuclear reactions into hydrogen via electrolysis, the total efficiency is more like 25%–40%.

In a nutshell......this is ..???


A: a SCAM

B: GARBAGE

C: BUll$hit

D: All of the above

If you answered with D: all of the above...you would be more correct than the other 3.!

That, my friends is all that this Hydrogen yap is.!! Yes, you can separate O2 and 2H from a molecule of water...what you cannot do is create enough of the hydrogen to power anything but a well directed fart.! the amount of energy required to generate enough 2H to do anything is well beyond our vehicles electrical system to generate...by at least a factor of 100 if not more.

C'mon, give your colletive heads a shake.!! Did you really think it was going to be that simple and easy..??? do the math and do the science and you will see it is simply not feasible nor practical.

Suggested reading: Newton.


Looking to save money...??? Buying a Jetta or Golf TDI will do that for sure.! I am and have a real nice Duramax for sale...any takers.??
PM me.

Cheers,

Stk

Suggested reading: Newton.


Was waiting for someone to bring this up. I'll make it even easier.

The law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.

In other words, you'll get, at the very best, exactly what you put in, nothing more. Furthermore, when you add in the inefficiencies of systems such as the alternator (as elvis_knows mentioned), additional energy is actually lost as heat, etc...

Can't get something for nothing.

That's too bad, though... would've been nice! :)

I have experimented with hydrogen generators since 1983.
Having made two different types of high mileage carbs, I find the hydrogen generator the best and easiest solution to increasing fuel mileage.
First, you are not creating something from nothing as many have stated. You are using a material to convert from one form to another; ie, water to HHO.
Second, techniques to split the water to HHO have improved dramatically.
Third, application of the technology has to be done in a very scientific, sophisticated manner. So many of the devices I have seen are nothing more than 'toys'.
And finally, if you dont have the proper electronics to tweak your O2 sensor, you most likely will get worse gas mileage because of the additional oxygen you are putting into the system. The O2 sensor will recognize the additional oxygen and begin to dump more fuel into the system.
I would be remiss not to mention the dangers with 'experimenting' with this system. You MUST be cautious for many reasons, primarily flashback and without a vapor seperator device to inhibit water vapor from being vaccumed out of the generator, you are adding water to the mix. Also, if using a voltage amplifier system you can be the victim of electrocution.
All in all, the system does work if the technology is properly applied. It is not perpetual motion due to the fact that you are consuming water to manufacture the gas.
The diesel units I have built are quite large with large, very sophisticated electrodes, not just simple connectors or metal plates.
There are a lot of big money industries who DO NOT WANT this technology made public and will even most likely join blogs to discourage the use.
I know it works.
Regards,
Swamp Thing

Swampthing, can it be done on a small scale easily? Expensive? Is this something that should be left to the experts? Where is a good place to get the real facts and start research for it? Thanks

Hydrogen cars are here now. There are already many hydrogen cars on the road. California and Japan have hydrogen cars being used as fleet vehicles now. In 2005, Honda leased the first commercial hydrogen car to a family in Redondo Beach, California.

For the past 28 years, the Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) has been conducting research on hydrogen fuel cells for use in transportation, industry and residential use. According to the LANL, "Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Research at Los Alamos has made significant technological advances in Polymer Electrolyte Membrane (PEM) fuel cells, Direct Methanol Fuel Cells (DMFC), and related technologies such as the electrolyzer (a fuel cell in reverse, liberating hydrogen from electricity and pure water)."

Unlike many of the hybrid and "green" cars currently on the market, hydrogen cars offer the promise of zero emission technology, where the only byproduct from the cars is water vapor. Current gas and diesel vehicles emit all sorts of pollutants such as carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, nitrous oxide, ozone and microscopic particulate matter. Hybrids and other green cars address these issues to a large extent but only hydrogen cars hold the promise of zero emission of pollutants. The Environmental Protection Agency estimates that fossil-fuel automobiles emit 1 ½ billion tons of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere each year and going to hydrogen-based transportation would all but eliminate this.

President Bush has allocated approximately $2 billion in hydrogen highway research. California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is pushing to get 200 hydrogen filling stations built by 2010 stretching from Vancouver, British Columbia, all the way down to Baja, California. Since Californians buy one-fifth of the nation's cars, the new hydrogen car technology could simply replace the current gasoline engine automobiles in what is called "disruptive technology" where something so innovative comes along it simply replaces the old technology very quickly.

A more likely scenario is that dual-fuel automotive systems will be developed that can run on either gasoline or hydrogen as the hydrogen infrastructure is being developed. The conversion from gasoline-powered internal combustion engines to hydrogen powered combustion engines is agreed upon by most scientists and engineers to be a particularly easy transition and would buy time for hydrogen fuel cell cars to be fully adapted.

But, hydrogen cars are not isolated to those that burn the fuel in internal combustion engines. There are more hydrogen fuel cell cars being built currently than any other kind. There's also hydrogen-on-demand vehicles that are either using a hydrogen compound or electrolyzing water to create hydrogen, avoiding the compressed or liquid hydrogen refueling scenario altogether.

Honda has developed the Home Energy Station III that not only refuels a hydrogen car, but it can also power a home as well. The Home Energy Station III uses natural gas and an on board reformer to separate out the hydrogen for refueling the car. In order to create energy, it runs the hydrogen through a fuel cell and can thus generate power for a home as well.
In November 2007, Honda announced its new Home Energy Station IV that uses steam reforming of natural gas to derive hydrogen from both the steam and natural gas in equal parts. The Home Energy Station IV is 75-percent smaller than older units and provides hydrogen for a car as well as heat and electricity for the home.

The home refueling station is being tested at the Honda R&D Americas facility in Torrance, California. Honda is stating that the Home Energy Station IV will reduce CO2 emissions by 30-percent and energy costs by 50-percent compared to an average home that is on the grid and uses a gasoline-powered car.

General Motors announced that they are developing a home hydrogen fueling station for use with their line of Equinox Fuel Cell vehicles that they will soon begin rolling out. The General Motors hydrogen generator will be able to run on either solar energy or electricity.

Geez Bo...I would have to say that research is expensive, not only because of custom built parts that ya just cant buy off the shelf but also because sometime you build stuff that just doesnt work like you had planned.
Im being honest when I say that I cant really respond to your question but I will say this...a majority of our most useful products over the centuries have probably come out of someone's barn rather than from major corporations.
So, with that in mind, you could spend a bit of time to see what information is available, possibly online, determine if this is something you feel good about working with and go from there.
Regards,
Swamp Thing

First, you are not creating something from nothing as many have stated. You are using a material to convert from one form to another; ie, water to HHO.
Water has a lower energy state than an equal mass of hydrogen and oxygen. That's where the chemical potential energy of hydrogen comes from. In order to separate the hydrogen and oxygen from water, the covalent bonds have to be broken, and that requires an energy input.

When combusted, that chemical potential energy is released in the form of heat energy, and the same mass of hydrogen and oxygen reverts back to its lower energy state in the form of water.

Since Kevin Trudeau has moved from dietary cures, to weight-loss cures to debt cures, will it be too long before he starts hawking hydrogen-energy cures?

Hydrogen cars are here now. There are already many hydrogen cars on the road. California and Japan have hydrogen cars being used as fleet vehicles now. In 2005, Honda leased the first commercial hydrogen car to a family in Redondo Beach, California.
Except that they both involve "hydrogen," fuel cell cars have nothing to do with producing hydrogen via electrolysis and using it as a fuel in an internal combustion engine. Hydrogen fuel cells use compressed hydrogen gas, or hydrogen stored as a hydrate, as a fuel source to produce electricity to power electric motors.

I realize that manufacturers have hydrogen fuel-cell demo cars in operation, but in my opinion, hydrogen fuel cells will not win out in the marketplace, for several reasons: one is cost and another is the complete lack of a distribution infrastructure. The electric grid is already more extensive than the existing gasoline distribution infrastructure. As far as refueling at home, generating hydrogen via electrolysis and compressing it is slower and far less efficient than charging a battery. Most likely, the electric cars of the future will be powered by advanced batteries that can be recharged quickly, like these:
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2007_12/pr1101.htm
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/blogs/2007/12/how-will-toshibas-scib-battery-technology-impact-evs.html
http://www.gizmag.com/toshiba-scib-super-charge-lithium-battery/8506/
"The development of high-powered, long-lasting, rapid-charge battery cells offers the automotive industry a simple and extremely efficient alternative to Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, whose competitive advantage thus far lies in their ability to refuel in a similar manner to petrol-powered cars. Batteries are much more energy-efficient, delivering as much as three times more power from the electricity grid to the wheels as fuel cell vehicles are able to."

...Third, application of the technology has to be done in a very scientific, sophisticated manner... I know it works.
Regards,
Swamp Thing

Well, then you should have some really good data to present!

Until I see a properly set up experiment, and the results analyzed with solid statistical analysis, I call bullshit on the whole thing.

I've only seen the financial investment actually come close to saving enough to be worth while on large trucking fleets where saving 1/2 to 1 MPG makes a world of difference on the bottom line.

I call bullshit on the whole thing. :iamlost:


nwpadmax,

Norway is pioneering an initiative entitled HyNor, with the initial ambition of building five refueling stations along a 360-mile route, which forms the backbone of its petroleum industry. Norway is committing to sustainable fuels in order to set an environmental precedent, cut down on transport emissions, and to combat climate change.


Here's a picture of one of the HyNor hydrogen filling stations in Norway:

http://www4.hydro.com/electrolysers/library/images/stasjon_ill_490x167.jpg


Also, consider that there's a GM project entitled Project Driveway under which GM selected at least 100 initial drivers of the Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell from people applying to participate. Most of the drivers that GM selected live in California, within ten miles of the several '700 bar' hydrogen stations located from San Diego to Burbank, California.

These individuals drive the vehicle for three months. It is a free trial with GM covering the vehicle, insurance, maintenance, and fuel. Some business fleets will put the vehicles through a more extensive 30 month test. Over 3 years, 300 to 500 people are likely to try the vehicles for 3 months each.

The Equinox Fuel Cell is an electric vehicle with an electric drive motor, no engine, nickel metal hydride batteries, and a hydrogen fuel cell which generates electricity.

GM is making a priority of customer support. At the heart of the support is their OnStar system. OnStar is GM’s in-vehicle safety and security system. OnStar's innovative three-button system offers: 24-hour access to one of 6, and later 12, Equinox Fuel Cell Advisers; a connection to emergency assistance; along with access to OnStar Hands-Free Calling. Each driver will have one person to deal with at GM, a driver relationship manager. All drivers will receive training.

Detailed data acquisition and analysis will help GM develop a knowledge base that will influence the roll-out of the next generation fuel cell vehicle. Customer support will include three dedicated service hubs for vehicle prep, training, deliver, maintenance and vehicle return.

Driving range is still a challenge for all makers of electric vehicles. The Equinox Fuel Cell will typically deliver a range of 160 miles between hydrogen fueling, but only by using the higher pressure '700 bar'. In California, only the Irvine station currently offers the higher '700 bar' pressure as well as '350 bar'. All other stations offer only '350 bar'. The Equinox Fuel Cell only has a range of about 80 miles when fueled at 350 bar.

Another challenge is that a number of hydrogen stations are dedicated to one fleet and are not available to the public. Over the next few years, range will greatly improve from drivers of fuel cell vehicles. Today, fuel cell buses with ten times the weight of the Equinox have ranges greater than 300 miles.

The Equinox Fuel Cell uses 35 kW of NiMH batteries in a mild-hybrid configuration. In other vehicles, such as the Volt, GM is testing new lithium batteries. In its next generation fuel cell vehicle, GM could achieve a range exceeding 300 miles by reducing vehicle weight, having a more battery-dominate full-hybrid design such as E-Flex, using its fifth generation fuel cell, and by switching to lithium batteries.

To accelerate the presence of higher pressure stations with public access, GM is spending millions to establish nine temporary '700 bar' stations from Burbank to San Diego. Hydrogen will be made by large-scale reformation of natural gas that is truck delivered.

A number of existing California hydrogen stations use zero-emission hydrogen production by using electrolysis powered by renewable energy, such as solar. Others, such as AC Transit and USMC Camp Pendleton, make hydrogen with on-site electrolysis of pipelined natural gas.

RWH....

Dude, get a grip. I'm not arguing about fuel cells or compressed hydrogen. Everyone with a brain knows they work.

It's these bullshit electrolysis cells that I'm referring to above.

High-pressure compressed hydrogen does work as a fuel source either in fuel cells or internal combustion engine, but working with it isn't easy. It tends to leak.
This company was developing a system that stored the hydrogen in hydride form:
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/smarttank.jpg
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm

Although they had demo vehicles running several years ago, further development of this system has been stalled for several years. Based on the latest update, evidently they are still working on it.

RWH - you seem like a reasonable person. You do realize that the production of H2 gas takes more energy than is stored in the free H2, right? In fact, it requires 3-5x more energy to produce H2 than you can get by combining that back with O2. That's a FACT that has been proven over and over again - look it up if you doubt it. Energy balances don't lie and have been around for over a hundred years.

You also understand that the ONLY reason for fuel cell powered cars using H2 is to reduce tail pipe emissions, right? You do understand that there is MORE CO2 generated by a fuel cell car than a gas powered car, when you take into consideration the tons of coal burned to get the electricity to convert the water into H2. You also understand that it takes MORE energy to drive a mile with a fuel cell car than a gasoline powered car, right? The only benefit is the lowering of NOx's and other non-CO2 gases as the power stations coal burning can be scrubbed more effectively than a car exhaust. Not a lot better as cat converters are quite effective now.

jb

And if the hydrogen is stored in a high-pressure tank rather than bound to a hydride molecule, a not insignificant amount of energy is expended compressing the hydrogen, too.

Natural gas vehicles have the same problem, though to a lesser extent.

Of course, the energy to compress the hydrogen or natural gas is provided by electricity, which is better than using petroleum for tat purpose, but not entirely, considering how many natural gas fired electric power plants we have in the US.

Electric vehicles powered by fuel cells will most likely lose out in the marketplace to EVs powered by advanced fast recharge batteries like Toshiba's new SCIB Li-Ion batteries.

So if we powered the hydrgen source for these vehicles with solar, wind, or nuclear power they would make more sense? I mean you could produce and package your hydrogen without creating any green house gasses at all right?

So if we powered the hydrgen source for these vehicles with solar, wind, or nuclear power they would make more sense? I mean you could produce and package your hydrogen without creating any green house gasses at all right?

I've seen house-scale solar systems use an electrolysis cell and hydrogen/oxygen storage as an energy storage system. But then, it basically becomes no more than a fancy battery and isn't much more efficient than convential batteries. For transportation, it will probably prove much more efficient in the long run to just charge batteries than to use the electrical energy to create hydrogen. Of course effective range is an issue, but I envision a time when instead of gas stations, you'll have battery stations. There you'll just pull up and pull out your depleted battery, exchange it for a charged-up one, and off you'll go. Battery technology will have to get better to make this a reality, but we aren't all that far away.

I envision a time when instead of gas stations, you'll have battery stations. There you'll just pull up and pull out your depleted battery, exchange it for a charged-up one, and off you'll go.




Not me. I envision a time in the not so distant Democrat controlled future when you won't have to stop for gas, diesel, hydrogen, propane, CNG, Bio-D, ethanol, methanol, electricity, or even batteries. Nope, you'll just keep peddling your Schwinn down the road to the field you are assigned to pull weeds from by hand in the hot sun for 16 hours without a break. Then peddle back home for your one meal, weekly bath and a couple hours sleep before doing it all over again. Ahhh, the luxuries of the middle class (the schwinn...).

Not me. I envision a time in the not so distant Democrat controlled future when you won't have to stop for gas, diesel, hydrogen, propane, CNG, Bio-D, ethanol, methanol, electricity, or even batteries. Nope, you'll just keep peddling your Schwinn down the road to the field you are assigned to pull weeds from by hand in the hot sun for 16 hours without a break. Then peddle back home for your one meal, weekly bath and a couple hours sleep before doing it all over again. Ahhh, the luxuries of the middle class (the schwinn...).

:D It is the truth!!!

Heh, thats probably the most sensible thing I have heard in this whole thread, lol!