A poster over on the "page" indicated that they announced the LLY numbers on a show last evening....310 HP and 560 lb-ft of torque. Has anyone else heard these as hard and fast numbers?


I'm surprised that there would be such a minimal increase in HP, and a torque increase that only matches the 6.0L PSD. If these numbers are true, you'd be able to beat a stock LLY easily with ANY chip/programmer on the market for the LB7.

I've not seen any numbers so I just checked GM's media web site as well as the GMC web site and there's nothing changed there.


Since my new truck is supposed to have the LLY, I'm quite interested in what GM finally says about it.

No matter what they do, a chipped LB7 will beat it. The question is how much power will the new turbo support?

Don't forget about all of the emmissions nonsense the new engine has.

the emission nonsence has nothing to do with the numbers..it was tuned to were it is now GM has bigger plans, this is just basically a design to get GM more of the market, they are plans for better in the future but im not about to spillhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

this is just basically a design to get GM more of the market, they are plans for better in the future but im not about to spillhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


A v6 dmax would be a well needed plan for the future.

the emission nonsence has nothing to do with the numbers..it was tuned to were it is now GM has bigger plans, this is just basically a design to get GM more of the market, they are plans for better in the future but im not about to spillhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


OK, but we've been hearing for quite a while now that the new engine would have a big boost in power ratings. Although F*rd has had teething problems with the 6.0L PSD, they were able to jump back to "best in class" HP and TQ numbers with the new engine. Now the Duramax is getting the variable vane turbo, improved injectors and fuel delivery, and has bigger displacement, but we can't even give the PSD guys grief over being second again? How hard would it have been to boost the HP at least to the level of the PSD and keep the torque at 560, or even slightly higher? The chips/programmers out there prove that the Duramax has a huge amount of untapped potential, and one would think GM would want those "best in class" numbers again. These numbers are second best and I don't see how GM plans on getting any more market share with them than they can get with the current LB7 design.


I'm not trying to give you a hard time Kool, I love your input to the Duramax forums. I'm just surprised that the numbers weren't as "exciting" as GM seemed to indicate they would be.

Don't forget, alli can only take so much.

Don't forget, alli can only take so much.


It was indicated that the Allison would receive some updates to handle the new power.Edited by: bluenote

Don't forget, alli can only take so much.


It was indicated that the Allison would receive some updates to handle the new power.





still.... I doubt they changed the torque conveter or clutches. 2 of the major weakpoints.

Motorweek said 325 hp and 540 lb/ft yesterday's show.


Jess

OK, so if we mix the two announcements, we can come up with 325 HP and 560 lb-ft of torque! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


That at least would let GM claim a tie for "best in class" numbers. Let's see what their official press release says, if and when it comes out.

I echo Kool's comments on the bigger and better that is coming down the road....post LLY.. no spillin from me eitherhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

I also heard, the 310 560 numbers on either the outdooor channel or whatever channel the tractor pulls come on....








Jon

I hate this cat and mouse stuff.......back in early '01 when I bought my '01 we were told the guru's at DMAX were working on the '04, bigger and badder was the news. Now the '04 is about to be launched and what do we get........news that the next version will be bigger and badder yet again....


I think GM is taking marketing lessons from the computer guys where everything is obsolete 6 months after it is released.


Let's see the '01 design lasted through the '03 model year, the '04 will likely be with us through the '06 year and then the '07 will be bigger and badder yet again...


No wonder people buy the boxes to leap ahead to bigger and badder right now!


Guess I will put my thoughts about getting the '04 on the back burner and see what is coming down the Pike, not what GM wants to hear, but it's their fault for playing games with us. Don't they get it yet? We want it all now and I mean right now LOL ha ha ha

If I had to guess, I'd bet that the 04's are going to be in the hp range people have talked about seeing in ads etc, 325/565. I would guess that GM's had enough with the other two mfg's walking all over them and are preparing to show that they're not going back to being a second rate diesel truck maker. Ford will step up and put say 350/600 and god knows what Dodge will do.....GM will be ready with their answer. Hows 360-370 sound in 06 ?? Totally guessing here, no basis, but good rumor material. I still think Dodge will be the wild card and could send everyone for a loop. GM has learned that building high quality, high horsepower trucks brings them market share and profits. Step it up boys and I'll never go back to Ford again. I love horsepower and torque and will pay for it.

OK, but we've been hearing for quite a while now that the new engine would have a big boost in power ratings. Although F*rd has had teething problems with the 6.0L PSD, they were able to jump back to "best in class" HP and TQ numbers with the new engine. Now the Duramax is getting the variable vane turbo, improved injectors and fuel delivery, and has bigger displacement, but we can't even give the PSD guys grief over being second again? How hard would it have been to boost the HP at least to the level of the PSD and keep the torque at 560, or even slightly higher? The chips/programmers out there prove that the Duramax has a huge amount of untapped potential, and one would think GM would want those "best in class" numbers again. These numbers are second best and I don't see how GM plans on getting any more market share with them than they can get with the current LB7 design.


I'm not trying to give you a hard time Kool, I love your input to the Duramax forums. I'm just surprised that the numbers weren't as "exciting" as GM seemed to indicate they would be.











ok this is kinda my take on what there doing...GM doesnt want to go all out right now...basically our main sales are due to the quiet diesel technology, along with the duramax's awsome quality....this is just a small stepping stone, toward what GM has planned for the 06 ive heard rumors but not gonna spill..lets just say, u will crap urselfhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif


but yeah, we have now hit 100% quality though hot test on both shifts, can the PSD say they did that, our quietness, and quality are what is selling us right now, the lil jump is to help boost the duramax, but this what is planned for the future, u will love

Not to make anyone mad, but who care about the future, I can say yeah in 05 or 07 or whatever I'll have the most power but bottom line is I am at the stop light NOW next to the more powerful powerstroke or cummins or ????. GM needs to get real and get on the ball, GM talks a great game with little follow through. Lets hope that someone has real hard numbers.

Lenny

Im still happy w/ my '02 at 470plus at the rear wheels and 800plus torque........line em up.......Ill leave the propane offhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Lenny,


As someone who sold new GMC trucks at one point in my life, I'd like to make a couple of observations.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but GM has something of a different marketing strategy, targeting different types of buyers. Otherwise, why would they continue to avoid pointing out the fact that they sell more pickups than Ford?


The GMC crowd, including me, is for the most part REALLY interested in the quiet aspect of this equation. Some of us tried the earlier diesels and were not impressed, so the quality aspect of the Duramax is important as well. That's not to say the Chevy guys don't look at those things, but the Chevy's are not marketed quite like the GMC,which is usually purchased by people looking for a second car, that can occasionally function as a truck.


I appreciate the input of folks like kool, who try to keep us up to date on what's going on, since I'm waiting for a new truck, it's important to me. The fact that Ford advertises more power does not concern me in the least, nor I suspect does it really concern any potential Duramax buyer.


When there are engine and power train improvements, it's nice to know what was changed. Since no one can build the perfect setup right out of the box, improvements are to be expected when companies care about their products. I would be more suspicious of a company who did not improve on existing products. And finally, an improvement on an existing design shows forthought in the original design, and is far less likely to reveal new unforseen problems with the design.


So when you do actually buy a new diesel, you are free to buy which ever make you want. If it's more advertised power that's most important to you, it's anybody's guess who'll be publishing higher figures then.Edited by: Zeeb

If GM is serious about getting market share they better keep an eye on the horsepower no one cares about or Ford will take it from them because Ford understands what people like me want, power. Why do you think Ford uses that as the main theme in their advertizing?

ford may have power, but there quality is one of the worst in the market, i would rather have an engine, that i could count on, and not have to worry about turbo's blowing up, or engines being bought back...to me, quality, is more important than power, and who cares if the PSD is more powerfull, there gonna be in the shop longer lolhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

But, But, But Quality is Job 1???? Isn't it????? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

The dealer here today said he'd heard the numbers of 310hp and 565 torque as well for the new enginehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif. Hasn't seen anything in print yet though.

<H2 style="MARGIN: auto 0in">This all came from the following web site…</H2>
<H2 style="MARGIN: auto 0in">http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/vehiclesel.jsp?year=2004&amp;regionID=1&amp;divisionID=1#</H2>
<H2 style="MARGIN: auto 0in">Distribution Updates</H2>
<H4 style="MARGIN: auto 0in">Updates for Silverado 2500HD</H4>
<H4 style="MARGIN: auto 0in">Week of <st1:date Month="12" Day="1" Year="2003">12/1/2003</st1:date></H4>
Effective <st1:date Month="12" Day="1" Year="2003">12/1/2003</st1:date>, the following changes will be made to the Vehicle Order Guide:
<UL =disc>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: black; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Mechanical section-Replace all mention of (LB7) Engine, Duramax 6600 Turbo Diesel V8 with (LLY) Engine, Duramax 6600 Turbo Diesel V8. Please see the order guide for details. </LI>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: black; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Mechanical section-Deleted (LB7) Engine, Duramax 6600 Turbo Diesel V8 entirely. </LI>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: black; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Mechanical section-Added option (LLY) Engine, Duramax 6600 Turbo Diesel V8 with a footnote that reads "Includes (TQ3) Battery, heavy-duty dual, 770 cold-cranking amps, (K05) Engine block heater and (K47) Air cleaner, high capacity". It is available on all equipment groups. </LI>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: black; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Engine/Axle section-(LB7) Engine, Duramax 6600 Turbo Diesel V8 has been replaced with (LLY) Engine, Duramax 6600 Turbo Diesel V8. Please see the order guide for details. </LI>[/list]

The following was “Published <st1:date Month="11" Day="28" Year="2003">November 28, 2003</st1:date>” Page 2


LLY Engine, Duram

Oh come on, are we going to hold it against Ford that their trucks warp brake rotors, have clunky front ends, steering doesn't work at idle, blinkers shut off constantly......never mind the awesome 6.0 programming, main seal leaks, injector failures and turbo washdown with fuel. Did I forget something? I'm surprised their stock isn't 0.

Pretty good sleuth work, but that's the dealer update which has been in the works since 11-19-03 according to a dealer only memo sent out by GM that day.


The only notable change on this spec from the LB7, is that the torque is listed @1600 RPM, where the LB7 was listed @1800 RPM. This is from the GM Media web site:


http://media.gm.com/division/powertrain/index.html



<TABLE style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" borderColor=#111111 cellPadding=2 width="90%" bgColor=#c0c0c0 border=1>
<T>
<TR>
<TD width="48%"><A name=lb7></A>Duramax 6600 6.6L V-8 Turbo Diesel (LB7) </TD>
<TD align=middle width="26%">What's New or Changed (http://media.gm.com/division/powertrain/products/engine/truckengines/l52a.doc)</TD>
<TD align=middle width="15%">View Photo (http://media.gm.com/division/powertrain/photos/04_truck/images/2004%206_6L%20V8%20LB7%20HiR_jpg.jpg)</TD>
<TD align=middle width="24%">Top of Page (http://media.gm.com/division/powertrain/products/engine/truckengines/04_truck_specs.html#top)</TD></TR></T></TABLE>
<TABLE borderColor=#c0c0c0 cellPadding=2 width="90%" border=1>
<T>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=777 colSpan=2> </TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Type:</TD>
<TD width=568>Duramax 6.6L V-8 turbo-diesel</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Displacement: </TD>
<TD width=568>6599cc</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Compression ratio: </TD>
<TD width=568>17.5:1</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Valve configuration:</TD>
<TD width=568>overhead valves (4 valves per cylinder)</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Assembly site:</TD>
<TD width=568>Moraine, Ohio</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Valve lifters: </TD>
<TD width=568>mechanical roller</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Firing order: </TD>
<TD width=568>1 - 2 - 7 - 8 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 3</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Bore x stroke:</TD>
<TD width=568>103 x 99mm</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Fuel system:</TD>
<TD width=568>direct injection diesel with high pressure common rail</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Horsepower: </TD>
<TD width=568>300 @ 3000 rpm 3500 Silverado and Sierra (Heavy Duty)
210 @ 2750 rpm Kodiak and TopKick (Medium Duty)
300@ 3000 rpm Kodiak and TopKick (Medium Duty)</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Torque (lb-ft):</TD>
<TD width=568>520 @ 1800 rpm Silverado and Sierra (Heavy Duty)
520 @ 1800 rpm Kodiak and TopKick (Medium Duty)</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Fuel shut off: </TD>
<TD width=568>3250 rpm Silverado and Sierra (Heavy Duty)
210hp - 2900 rpm Kodiak and TopKick (Medium Duty)
300hp - 3250 rpm Kodiak and TopKick (Medium Duty)</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Emissions controls:</TD>
<TD width=568>catalytic converter (California only)
exhaust gas recirculation (California only)</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width=203>Applications:<

<H4>From the same site...</H4>
<H4> </H4>
<H4>Week of 10/6/2003</H4>Effective 10/6/2003, the following changes will be made to the Vehicle Order Guide:


<UL>
<LI>Mechanical section-(LB7) Engine, Duramax 6600 Turbo Diesel V8, changed HP rpm from 3100 to 3000 and Torque rpm from 1800 to 1600 in the description.</LI>[/list]

Screw it, I'll wait for an '06!!!!!

<H4>From the same site...</H4>
<H4> </H4>
<H4>Week of 10/6/2003</H4>Effective 10/6/2003, the following changes will be made to the Vehicle Order Guide:


<UL>
<LI>Mechanical section-(LB7) Engine, Duramax 6600 Turbo Diesel V8, changed HP rpm from 3100 to 3000 and Torque rpm from 1800 to 1600 in the description.</LI>[/list]





Well that blows my theory out of the water. But there is this other post by Bartman concerning the GM dealer note on the LLY release:


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2270&amp;PN=3


It specifically talks about new performance figures to be released... When seems to be the biggest question now.

I think that if I was in the market for an LLY that I would rather see changes to improve reliability, durability, longevity, and lower repair costs as opposed to simply a dramatic increase in power. They make plenty of power now, and as we all know it can easily be increased.


If I recall correctly I think that when the CTD Dodge made it's debut it was only rated at 160hp. They were slow, had terrible throttle response and serious turbo lag. And although they were clogging onramps across the country they sold well because they offered the consumer a pack mule that would last forever at a time when "domestic quality" was an oxymoron.


Before the Dmax came about, the benchmark for diesel pickup power was around the 250hp mark. Now just a few years later we expect to see in the ballpark of 350hp for an updated engine release. This is all fine and good so long as some primary objectives are preserved. I would rather see GM elaborate on the principles that have provided the consumer with an attractive alternative in years past rather than abandon them for a more disposable yet power competitive platform. This is how a reputation for quality is built.


And yes I like power, and would rather have more of it. I run Juice but use it with discretion and get more power than anyone had expected from the LLY. --SS

thanx all..i take pride in my work, and my quality is number one..id rather see our engines outlast our competitors in the dust, we did get a perfect score 5.0 from JD power for our engine, that was for the last 3 months..so i think thats pretty dang good...i think this truck has good enough pep as it is....with the new LLY u have the injector fix, along with some other bugs that were worked out..starting DEC 8th u will not be disopointed:)

Kool and others,


I never ment to make anyone mad with my comment. I will say that these engines are awsome along with the truck, to me it's the total package. My friend has a early 01 with 50 or 60K on it, this kid (my age) beats his stuff so hard it's unreal, he's a good friend of mine and goes to the dealer for all required service and what not, follows the book for hard use. It has held up well and I drive the truck often, I fell in love with it the night he got it. I think they are great trucks all around. And will probably buy one.


Kool,


Keep up the good work, all my friends own hondas and toyotas and can't believe american products are this good. Well, it's because of the hard work that you guys put in day in and day out we have these products. It was not my intention to sound the way I did.

Lenny

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Z51_front.jpg

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/2D6_side.jpg

Hoot, what the heck is that...you been smokin' that wacky weed? Or is that the LLY color combo? Cool graphics. Speaking of KOOL, do you know when GM will offically announce spec's on LLY? I didn't mean to freak everyone out the other day but I want our brand to smoke the other two and I know it's got the goods to do it. I also like to burn the friggin' wheels right off the truck!! I talk a good story, I'm actually pretty easy on the old girl...16,000 trouble free miles.

That is the Computer Aided Design of the LLY. See the new head design?

I'll have to open my hood and take a look at what we have stock, I guess I've heard that our injectors are under the valve covers. I understand the leak advantage with the new set up but I'm a little confused on the labor savings on pulling the injectors, how many man hours to pull valve covers? Let me guess, there's more than valve covers to deal with pulling the covers... I'm starting to see what I think the LLY is all about. The Cummins has the real power to out haul (someone did a comparison with loads at 1/4 mile track) Fords twenty horse advantage. Low end and mid range is what we really use, I think I've floored my truck twice since I've owned it, you really get little in return for beating the daylights out of it. That's what I like about the Edge chip, it's all there in the first half of the throttle. Hopefully the LLY with the VVT will bring us there. Has Cummins really offically released 325/600 numbers? If you could stick a ALLI to it you'd have something.

I for one would like to have injector serviceability be easier on my engine.


If they should fail or if I want larger one's the thought of a 14 hour job does not appeal to be.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif


Also moving fuel lines that could potentially leak and filll the crank case with diesel sounds good.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


The improvements are probably due to the GM's concern over the injectors lasting thru warranty and if not being able to replace them cheaper.


If Bosch is making injectors for just the Dmax I could see a big $$$$$$$ but since they make them for a lot of diesels why is GM charging excessively for them





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifNY

hoot how did u get those pictures:)...but that engine looks basically like the lly, also i havent heard any strong #'s on the LLY, if i do hear i will try to post em

A little birdie spammed me

Hoot or Kool,


Would you by any chance have a top view? Also, anyone know how this VVT is going to work? Hydro or elec? Thanks

Lenny

Those are the only views I have right now.

It's been reported the GM VVT will be hydraulic, whereas Ford's 6.0L is supposed to be electronic.

It's been reported the GM VVT will be hydraulic, whereas Ford's 6.0L is supposed to be electronic.

Word is the electronics can't handle the heat.

OK.... I'll spill the beans.....

Once you have it loaded, click on the side bar numbers to view the different pages.

Update Article (http://www.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/dmax04/2004i_Update_files/frame.htm)Edited by: hoot

OK.... I'll spill the beans.....

Once you have it loaded, click on the side bar numbers to view the different pages.

Update Article (http://www.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/dmax04/2004i_Update_files/frame.htm)


That link kills IE on my computer.


Do you have those drawings in Vector format or only raster?

Yeah i get the same problem Amric, I asked hoot to e mail me that powerpoint so if he does I'll forward it to you.



Lenny

thanx all..


&lt;snip&gt;


with the new LLY u have the injector fix, along with some other bugs that were worked out..starting DEC 8th u will not be disopointed:)


kool, you guys still on target to start building LLY's Monday?

Here's some good stuff on the LLY from another forum on hp and tq of this new engine. Sound impressive...



<TABLE class=tableborders cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="100%">
<T>
<TR>
<TD class=darktable vAlign=top width="17%" rowSpan=2>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD class=small>Administrator </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD class=small></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD class=small>http://photos.thedieselstop.com/data/500/957texas-thumb.jpg
</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD class=small>Member # 957 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TR>
<TD class=small>Reged: 04/26/99 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD class=small>Posts: 16515 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD class=small>Loc: Midland County,TX, USA </TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD class=subjecttable width="83%">
<TABLE class=subjecttable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%">
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width="70%">http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/book.gif GM boosts power on Duramax V-8
<A name=#1516964>#1516964 - 12/06/03 06:58 AM </A></TD>
<TD align=right width="30%">
<TABLE class=tablesurround>
<T>
<TR>
<TD class=navigation noWrap>http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/edit.gif Edit </TD>
<TD class=navigation noWrap>http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/reply.gif Reply </TD>
<TD class=navigation noWrap>http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/quote.gif Quote </TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD class=lighttable width="83%">
Automotive News website:

Friday, Dec. 5, 2003
COMBINED DAILY NEWSLETTER


<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>


GM boosts power on Duramax V-8
DETROIT – The diesel engine horsepower race gained speed Friday with General Motors announcing a power increase for its hot-selling 6.6-liter Duramax V-8.


<HR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not a subscriber, so I can't read the details. But they should be published in other sources within a day or so.



--------------------
My Sierra Blanca is a '99.5 PSD CrewCab hot-rod Towing Machine! Click on my UserName to see my bio for more details on Sierra Blanca.

An Administrator on this site is a member, just like you're a member, and his opinions are no more valid than yours. So it's okay to disagree with me on truck subjects. http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Post Extras: http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/print.gif (http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/printthread.php?Board=UBB30&amp;main=1516964&amp;type=post ) http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/addreminder.gif http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/notifymod.gif </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD class=darktable vAlign=top width="17%" rowSpan=2><A name=Post1516969></A>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<T>
<TR>
<TD><A title="Member # 26624" href="http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/showprofil