I've recently been involve with a debate over this. I have a 01 Caddilac STS and my 96 crew cab 6.5. There is a guy in ON that tows a 34' Airstream with his Hemi power Chrysler 300C. Yes.. that's 8000lbs of trailer. He tells me that it's the best tow vehicle he has ever had. Before this he used a Chrysler Intrepid.

My question without bia and the legal issue of the GVWR is he right? I got to thinking about this.

I will use my two vehicles as an example:
My 6.5 has 190hp/385lb torgue. weights in at 6550 lbs. Has disc and drum brakes. Tall 245/75-16 tires. GVWR is 9000lbs. This gives me a payload of 2450 lbs.

My Caddy has 300hp/300lb torque. weights in at 3890 lbs. Has huge Disc on both ends. Low profile tires. have a payload limit (on door) of 1250 lbs.

From these numbers it would seem that the caddy would indead beat my truck in every performance test and it does. The old school of thinking is when you hook up a heavy load to the car the truck will have an advantage. I'm begining to doubt that. Power is power. The caddy has more. Brakes are better and if your trailer brakes are working then they shouldn't make a differences. I find it hard to believe that by hooking up say 8000 lbs the truck brakes become better. It just doesn't work that way. I think it would be even worst considering the truck weights 2500 lbs more. The low profile tires on the caddy should control sway better than the tall truck tires.

Another thing he said was if you look at the payload of todays 1/2 ton trucks vs a mini van. The mini van is higher.. In fact some mini vans are higher than some 3/4 tonnes.

This guy invited me over to test drive his combo. I think next time I'm over there I will take him up on it. Very different think from this guy. Kinda makes you go hmmmm.

Very different think from this guy. Kinda makes you go hmmmm.I'd say so....

He pulled a 34' trailer with his Intrepid???? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif I think if I saw that going down the road, I'd definately keep my distance....

-Jeff

maybe that's why he does it.. so he get's the road to himself.

I think that you'll find that the structural integrity of today's auto and minivan frames, along with the alxe load capicity is what the real limitation is.

The full size trucks have a very sound frame under them that allows the truck to carry an fairly large payload without overstressing the vehicle overall.

The power plant is not the weakest link in this case.

Also bear in mind the stability of having twice the weight in the tow vehicle. We don't want the "tail wagging the dog".

These kinds of posts scare me!:eek: Am I surprised when I come up on a Ford Explorer flipped over on its back while the trailer they were pulling is still upright? Never! :(

Trucks are geared to haul loads, cars are not. Truck brakes are normally bigger, with the exception of GM's stupidity on their 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton vans until 96, in order to stop heavier payloads. One should use the right vehicle for the right application, especially when towing. ;)

That 1250lb payload capacity on your Caddy includes the driver, any passengers, luggage, fuel, etc. An 8k lb trailers is normally going to put 800-1000lbs of tongue weight on the tow vehicle. UUUhhhhhhhhh? :badidea:

"He tells me that it's the best tow vehicle he has ever had. Before this he used a Chrysler Intrepid." Is anyone surprised? :D

You do have to give the 300M its due, it is a sweet vehicle, I'm not sure what the wheelbase is, but I can see it has a pretty wide stance on the road. I have to think he is exceeding the GVWR. However, I've seen people pulling 30' trailers with a lot less. :o:

Finally, don't undersize, under-brake or under-suspension your tow vehicle while relying on your trailer brakes to save your a$$! The brakes on my 5ver went out on me a few weeks back. Fortunately not in the wrong location or JJ's shorts would have had some serious tea stains in them! :rolleyes: JJ's out! :)

This is taken from his website. These are the combos he has for you to test drive.

A selection of cars, SUVs, minivans and pickups are always hooked up to a range of towables, ready for your test drive. Today's demo combinations are listed right here. (And if you're ever looking to test drive a certain towable unit, we can accommodate your request!)


2004 Ford Freestar & 28' Trail Cruiser
2003 Chev Truck & 30' SunnyBrook Solanta 5th Wheel
2005Chrysler 300C Hemi & 34' Airstream (You gotta try this!!!)
1994 Chrysler Intrepid and Airstream with Hensley Arrow
His website is http://www.can-am-rv.com/

He writes a monthly article for a RV magazine too. Has quite a following. I'm not saying I would try towing a huge trailer (maybe I would try only:lol: ) with my Caddy, but he got me thinking about what these tow rating really mean. Seams to me that the mfg are rating low tow ratings for cars so you can move up to a truck. Who knows.. This guy has done test on a slamon course and can make his 300C combo beat a unload duramax K2500.

This doesn't work for me anyways since I need my bed for the dirt bikes.

Another item to considered is RWD vs FWD. Front wheel drive vehicles are at a disadvantage for towing regardless of HP/TQ, since on acceleration the front tends to lift the vehicle up. Add a 10% Gross Trailer Weight onto the ball hitch (in this case that is 800 lbs), that would multiply the problem and induce wheel slip. On braking, the "see-saw" effect on the trailre increases the weight on the ball, lifting the front, also inducing wheel skid. Rear wheel drive vehicles tend to do better, as the load on the ball adds to the rear wheel traction on acceleration, but on a vehicle that is balanced close to 50/50%, there is no advantage between RWD or FWD.

As mentioned, there is a great deal of structural difference between framed and unibody or semi-unibody vehicles. His 300C and your Caddy get structural integrity through both the "passenger cage" of your vehicles. That is the formed floor pan, the verticla pillars, and the roof. Stressing these structural members, to a point that they may be distorted, can cause doors to fail to open, or close, trunk lids to stop opening or staying closed, and weaken the "protective" properties of the passenger cage.

Another item that has come up lately is the accidental triggering of the airbags caused by trailering in high winds. The twisting and push-pull effect has triggered airbags to deploy while traveling at highway speeds, because the sensors can interpret distortions to the framework of the car as a vehicular accident, which is shure to cause one.

Trucks are completely different vehilces. One, there is a ladder frame that runs from front to rear, essentially taking the weight of the vehicles into three parts. The engine, the passenger cabin, and the load bearing chassis of choice (box, flatbed, etc. etc.). The hitch is mounted to the rear of those rails, and they are sufficiently constructed to continue the distribution of weight across the entire frame. Two, the distribution of weight on trucks vary from 70-80% on the front axle while unloaded. Adding 800-1200 lbs to the ball serves to balance this distribution towards the rear axle. However, assuming that the vehicles axles are withing their weight ratings, braking will not shift this distribution below 40/60 fully loaded. On larger trucks, the heavy diesel engines may fall below 33/67% (F/R while fully loaded to GVWR), but does not cause the front to lift and front wheels to preaturely lock up.

Bottom line, what everyone is saying is safety first, bragging rights second. From this guys theory, I should have spent my cash on a Lambo instead of a 2-Ton truck to tow my trailer, but Lamborghini does not allow towing of any sort. And the 500 HP C6 is limited to 1000 lbs. "Hemi" commercials are getting to these guys heads. The commercials may not make any distinctions between truck and car engines, so these clowns believe that they can be used interchangeably.

:wtf1: RV sales guy! "Uh, yeah, you can pull that 8k lb trailer with your Buick Century Granny. Sign here please!" ):h Nuff said! JJ :)

where are they mounting the brake controller, have not seen any harnesses advertised for cars ;) load range E passenger car tires ?


:badidea:

Ski1, they don't need a brake controller cauz the RV sales guy gives them a rope and anchor to toss out the window just in case the cars brakes can't stop fast enough! :lol: JJ :)

Actually brake controllers are easy to install. It's just 4 wires. I'm having a good laugh at this too.. but the more I read about this guy the more he makes sence to me. If it wasn't for that GVWR thing I think he has a thing going. If you look at Euro countries, There Pontiac GTO is rated to tow 3000 kgs (6600lbs), but over here it's only rated for 1000 lbs. Wonder why? maybe because GM wants you to buy a high profit truck. hmmmm

Unibodies are being used in SUV with high tow ratings. (Grand Cheorkoo, Porche, VW, Caddilac SRX) I don't think that's a problem anymore. High load tires are not a concern because you are not carrying the trailer on the tires.. Only pulling it.

Whats this RV dealer trying to do; get somebody killled? I pulll a 34' Airstream and it has a GRVR of 9800lbs, I wouldn't pull it with anything less than my Dura Max.I am not talking about pulling around the block or thirty miles but 6,000 miles through hills, valleys rain storms trucks and buses pass all kinds of hazards. Going thru cities sixty miles an hour and roads so rough it seems like everything will fall apart. At my age I have pulled with cars but they had to be equiped to handle it; you didn't go very fast then fifty five miles per hour barely get up the mountians etc. no way I am goin back when you can pulll as fast as you want and be safe. Thats my two cents worth..:)

I don't know if this is related, but the Hensley trailer hitch people use a small (relatively) car, big trailer combination to illustrate the talents and abilities of their marvelous hitch to control sway under even these conditions. It may serve that purpose pretty well, but bolting a big, heavy trailer to what is essentially a very nicely styled and very powerful tin can (unibody) strikes me as an invitation to something really unpleasant.

TC

"High load tires are not a concern because you are not carrying the trailer on the tires.. Only pulling it." :eek:

Dave2001,

One might forgive your statements since you aren't the person out there peddling these "nightmares just waiting to happen". :o: That being said you need a good talking to. Please sit down, take a load off, ol' JJ's going to have a little father/son, brother/brother, whatever(?) talk wit' ya! :)

:) Safety first, always! The only way cars should tow trailers of any significant weight is by using weight distributing hitches. These hitches take the weight of the tow vehicle and trailer and distribute them across all the axles, hence there is added weight to the tow vehicle, its just distributed to the front wheels as well. Your getting into GVWR and GAWR ratings now and for most cars they aren't very high. :confused: I tried to find the GVWR for the 300M on Chryslers website, they don't post it, neither did Edmunds. If anyone has it please post it.

Next, cars generally don't have very long wheelbases, this is for a reason. Go park that Chrysler 300M in a parking space between 2 cars, then try and hit the same space with a 2500/3500 truck. Notice any difference? About 2 feet longer on average. :rolleyes:

While a shorter wheelbase is preferred for maneuvering into/out of traffic, parking lots, etc., the same doesn't hold true while trailering. I mentioned the number of Explorers and other short wheel base vehicles I've seen in accidents, there is a reason. When they get blown around, either by high winds or a tractor trailer rig blowing by them, the rig is very hard to control. Tractor trailers actually suck you into their lanes as they approach then push you off the road as they pass. Short wheelbase vehicles have a very hard time maintaining control while towing trailers in these situations. :badidea:

The law of physics takes over if the tail (trailer) starts wagging the dog (tow vehicle). Once the rear tires lose contact with the pavement it is not a pretty site! :o: The trailer usually wins that battle! :help:

Your comment about tires concerns me. :confused: The right tires are one of the most critical pieces of the towing puzzle. If the tires are not load rated for the right amount of weight they can disintegrate right under the vehicle. Don't ask how JJ knows that, I was young OK! Higher load rated tires have sturdier sidewalls and heavier belts to handle loads without swaying. Ever wonder why all those Explorers were having blowouts several years back? Underinflated/overloaded tires baby! :eek:

IMHO it is best to seek competent, safe trailering advice from sites like RV.net, the DP, or some other website where they aren't selling anything! :( Guys like RF3, RickDLance, and others can give you solid towing advice, even if they don't agree with each other all the time.

Hopefully you take this in the manner I intended it: You and your families, and ours safety! JJ's .02 cents worth. The End! JJ's done! :)

Tsckey, you are the one that stumbled on the prize answer for this question. I have a Hensley for my trailer and I understand the principal behind it and why it works. But there is/was an Intrepid that is pulling a big trailer like that. www.nosway.com It is in the Hensley's sales video that they send you as a promotional product. In it's simplest terms, the Hensley makes any trailer function and tow like a 5ver. It's basically an inverted fifth wheel/4 bar system. No sway, no nothing. I love it on my combination. Would I try and use it with my wifes' Monte Carlo SS? Absolutely no way. The Hensley makes the trailer take care of itself, all you need to do is provide the power to get it moving forward and have trailer brakes. If you see the Intrepid pulling the Airstream it's real. It's crazy, but it's real.

Some people will buy into anything.That guy is like Jim Jones.All that follow him will follow into a early grave. :badidea:

Sprintmod1, so where does the weight of the trailer go with the "Hensley Super-Duper anti-gravity hitch"? ):h

Sorry guys, but I have too much experience in marketing to let that one fly by! :D Could I hook that same Airstream up to a Yugo with a weight distributing hitch and pull it, yep! JJ's Yugo-hauler!! I like the sound of that! :rolleyes:

Buuuttttttttt, there is so much more to safe trailering than being able to pull something on a flat, dry surface with nobody else out there trying to blow or run your ass off the road. It doesn't matter how the weight is distributed, it is still there and during abrupt or evasive maneuvers it is going to want to go one way while the tow vehicle wants it to go another. My favorite is the rice burners that fly past you and jump in front of you and hit their brakes to go through the drive-thru. Now that is fun! :D

Nothing new here! Some are going to tow with an under-rated tow vehicle, while others will go to the other extreme and buy a MDT for a lightweight 5ver. Just be safe with whatever you tow with and operate within its limitations. FYI, in my younger days I towed our family pop-up camper (1500lbs +-) with our 79 Honda Accord 4cyl coupe. WWWeeeeehhhaaa!

JJ :)

I will use my two vehicles as an example:
My 6.5 has 190hp/385lb torgue.
My Caddy has 300hp/300lb torque.

Don't forget the difference between 385lb/ft torque at 2000RPM vs 300lb/ft at 6000+ RPM. Makes a big difference in tow capability. Torque curves are important for a reason, diesels are flat. Power is only good if it is where you can use it.

Kelly

JJ you are right about most everything you said. I'm not a young guy (I try to be) anymore and have towed my 8000 lbs TT across the country a few times. I understand the GVWR. I'm not saying to tow your huge tailer with a car but here is the math in my thinking. My STS has a carrying load (located in door jam) of 1250lbs. That is the total carrying capibly of the car including all passengers. My trailer has a tounge weight of 800-900 lbs, meaning I can still carry approx me and one other. I know this isn't much but I'm using an example. The tires on my car will hold 1850lbs each totalling 7400lbs of carrying capiablity. More than enough and I think the low profile tires will handle better because of less flex.

As for the short wheelbase, I agree under normal instances, but with the Helsey hitch it pretty much elimates that problem. I've used that hitch on my old S-Blazer towing a friends 34' TT for a trip that was 2000 kms. I thought I was going to die, but when I got on the road I was blown away at how well the hitch works. Basicly it locks the two vehical together making the working wheelbase the front tow vehicals tires and the back trailer tires. Can you imagine how stable that would be.

More about the GVWR. If you look at mini vans. (Caravon, Honda, Quest, whatever) most have a load carrying capablity higher than 3/4 ton pick ups. (GVWR minus actual weight of vehical = load carrying) I was surprise myself.

Like I said I'm not trying tell people to tow a huge trailer.. I just like talking about the science behind it. The guy who is doing it (Andy Thomson) is an engineer and he makes some really good points. I think he does the whole 300C/AS thing to promote his shop, but I do think that cars and mini vans are underated for towing.

This is a nice discussion.

Don't forget the difference between 385lb/ft torque at 2000RPM vs 300lb/ft at 6000+ RPM. Makes a big difference in tow capability. Torque curves are important for a reason, diesels are flat. Power is only good if it is where you can use it.

Kelly
You are right.. but the STS is still a V-8. It makes over 240 lb/ft at 2000 rpm and carries it almost to redline. My 6.5 probably makes more torque at idle then my STS does anywhere.

We all used to this all the time. Of course cars were really heavy back then....trailers were much smaller.....and we towed at 45 MPH and thought we were doing good. Worked great for it's time. That was the 40's and 50's. Now I wouldn't even consider it and can't figure out why anyone else would.

There is a guy in ON that tows a 34' Airstream with his Hemi power Chrysler 300C. The Chrysler 300/Hemi is only rated to pull 2000 lbs. It only comes with a 2.82 axle ratio. I don't think so!
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case680e, thanks, that was the info I was looking for earlier. :)

Guys, in a nutshell, if you are going to tow get a vehicle designed to tow. RV manufacturers are pushing the limits telling people they are safely towing with mini-vans and cars. No problems going forward, but when that 300lb buck darts out in front of you and you swirve to miss it that mini-van is going one direction and the trailer another. Safety first! Good discussion. JJ :)

JJ, I was only speaking of the Hensley in the terms of it's sway control. It can not be matched except for a fifth wheel. The tongue weight does need to go somewhere. As far as weight goes, you need something that can handle it, and that is not an Intrepid or a 300M!

If you ever get a chance, take someone up on driving a properly equipped truck and trailer with a Hensley. It is surprizing. I did not believe it's claims until I put one between my 01 8.1 2500 Suburban and my 32' trailer. And I have my time driving a fifth wheel to compare it to also.

I pulled a 30' three axle utility trailer from Santa Cruz, CA, to Ohio ten years ago with an '80 Olds wagon. Not by choice, my truck was wrecked and I had to get back home. The wagon had a 400" Pontiac motor, trans and engine oil cooler, 4 row radiator, 6 ply truck tires, about as good as a 1/2 ton p/u. The trailer weighed 9500 lbs, had brakes on two axles. I would never attempt such a thing again. Not enough brakes, rear axle ratio too high, etc. I cannot imagine pulling a trailer more than 2K lbs with any modern car. They advertise alot of hp, but they don't have anything else going for them. Not enough weight, cooling system, most of the transmissions are insufficient, the list goes on and on.

i think i have a video of this guy pulling the trailer, he had a few problems when i seen him in Colorado, i ended up making better timming did he did):h

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/cartrailor.wmv

I would make a lengthy comment on the obsurd idea of towing with todays cars but I'm late for my Flat Earth Society Meeting.

Sprintmod1, I will do that. I'm kind of an anal guy who loves to gather intel. :o: Good discussion guys! Every time we engage in these types of discussions we all take a little more away than we had before. Later. JJ :)

i think i have a video of this guy pulling the trailer, he had a few problems when i seen him in Colorado, i ended up making better timming did he did):h

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/cartrailor.wmv
You guys need to watch this video. This is that guy for sure!:exactly:

If that was a Yugo towing that trailer my plans for "JJ's Yugo Hauler" towing service are out the window! ):h About 20 years ago Mama JJ and I were on a trip in the NC mountains pulling a 30' Holiday Rambler Alumalite trailer. She was navigating and thought the Blue Ridge Parkway was a major highway since it was in bold on the map. Well????

Climbing at 6000' elevation our van had lost essentially 60% of its horsepower, I was crawling up to 6100' in 1st gear standing on the accelerator and maybe moving 3mph! We just prayed that we would make it to the top without rolling backwards. :o:

That might explain why I am so emphatic about having the right tow vehicle. It's not the planned trips that will bite you in the ass, it's those unplanned detours! Best to be prepared for the job! Later. JJ :)

:lol:

You guys would just about crap yourselves if you saw the stuff that goes on around here.

I moved to Australia about 18-20 months ago, and almost every camper, boat, and utility trailer is pulled by car. Even friggen' horse trailers! Every time I see it, I just shake my head. I will have to take the camera out on the weekend and get some pics. It really is rediculous.

Granted they aren't huge travel trailers, or anything, (maybe 25 ft?) and horse trailers are usually only for two. (unless they are being towed by a medium duty or something) But regardless I wouldn't even pull that with a stinkin' car!

Funny, yet scarry at the same time. I don't know how long the vehicles last putting up with that kind of abuse... I'd like to find out.

Towing with sedans and station wagons was a big thing in the 1960's.

Towing uphill using a Renault in the rain never seemed to catch on for some reason. :D

Looks like he forgot to hook up the trailer brakes too. :lol: