Just came from my local auto parts store, bought a bottle of


Rotella D.F.A., of course being the pure genious that I am I did not


read the bottle until after I treated my fuel http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif(dumb ass).


It did not indicate wheather or not it contained alcohol, nor did it


indicate if it was an emulsifier or demulsifier.


Has anyone used Rotella DFA if so do you continue to use it, if not


why?

Here you go -this is from their website. I use it and have no complaints:


Shell Rotella<SUP>®</SUP> DFA is an all-season diesel fuel additive with advanced additive technology specifically designed for today’s high performance, fuel-efficient, low-emission diesel engines. Using Rotella DFA regularly will help clean-up fuel injectors and other vital engine parts and it provides all season performance by preventing gelling down to -40° F. Rotella DFA contains both a special cold flow improver and a de-icer to enhance the low temperature performance of commercial diesel fuel. Rotella DFA is ashless and does not contain chlorine, alcohol or phosphorus.

Its an emulsifier......I used it for almost a year till I found FPPF Total Power for $68.04 for a case of 12. Was paying $36 for 6 bottles of the Rotella. The Rotella worked good for me. No problems.Edited by: Maverick

Maverick, where do you get for that price?! Thats cheap!!

I get a discount from the trucking co. I drive for but the everyday Joe can still get a good price for it. $85.92 for a case of Total Power. $92.76 for a case of 8+ Cetane Improver.


Call Badger Utility Inc. here in Wausau. 1-800-221-5760 or 715-359-8112.


http://www.badger-utility.com


Page 3 of 20 has the FPPF specials..... http://www.badger-utility.com/files/specials.pdfEdited by: Maverick

dang Maverick you seem to find all the good deals. I almost had something else you needed to pick up for me, then I saw they have a Waukesha location http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif so I guess I'll save you a trip on this one.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

Its an emulsifier......I used it for almost a year till I found FPPF Total Power for $68.04 for a case of 12. Was paying $36 for 6 bottles of the Rotella. The Rotella worked good for me. No problems.





Rotella DFA is not an emulsifier.


Rotella has a forum on their website, I asked whether Rotella was an emulsifier or demulsifier on that site :


Question posted by me...








GM has a tech bulletin stating that one should only use a demulsifier and to avoid emulsifiers (for dealing with water in diesel fuel).

The DFA spec sheet says that it "disperses small amounts of harmful water" AND "seperates large amounts of water". "Disperses" sounds like an emulsifier while "seperates" sounds like a demulsifier. Is DFA an emulsifier or demulsifier?

Also, some of the resident experts on another bulletin board that I participate in claim that a demulsifier will cause excessive corrosion (water falls out of suspension and corrodes bottom of tank, fuel filter, etc.) - is this true? Is there any component of DFA that deals with this issue?

They also state that using a demulsifier will ultimately result in engine damage and that the only way to deal with water in fuel is by emulsification.

TechExpert - please enlighten me.

thanks,
jeff




----------------------


Response from Shell :


Jeff –

DFA disperses small amounts of water by virtue of its deicing ability. This means water is attracted by polar additives that disperse it harmlessly in the fuel. This does not result in emulsion formation, or uptake of free water. Being dispersed in the fuel, water cannot form ice crystals that might plug fuel passages. The amount of water is so slight as to not cause harm to injectors (see below).

If fuel containing ROTELLA DFA contacts free water, it will shed that water rather than form an emulsion. In this case, the water remains in the tank bottom as a distinct layer, separate from the fuel. Any free water picked up from the tank will be separated at the filter, where it can be manually drained.

ROTELLA DFA contains corrosion inhibitors that reduce corrosion on steel surfaces, thus protecting tank, lines, and other steel surfaces when water is present.

Free water, or water/fuel emulsion delivered to an injector, can be a disaster. Water is instantly turned to steam with sufficient force to destroy injector tips. Not only is the injector ruined, but metal debris enters the combustion chamber where it can damage pistons and liners, as well as turbocharger fins.

--------------

That reply from an shell tech expert seems to mirror what others have said as to emulsify=bad, demulsify=good in high pressure fuel systems of todays trusks. I assume this is why GM is taking a hard stance against owners using emulsifying additives.

That reply from an shell tech expert seems to mirror what others have said as to emulsify=bad, demulsify=good in high pressure fuel systems of todays trusks.





Uh Oh! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/FAF_naughty.gif

Yes, even if the water is in emulsion it will still "destroy injector tips". If you get a bad batch of gas with alot of water, if you run an emulsifier additive , then all that water makes it to the injectors and you risk serious damage to your engine.


For those that worry about rust at the bottom of the fuel filter -&gt; The other point is that the corrosion inhibitors in Rotella DFA will reduce/prevent corrosion when free water settles out in tank/filter, etc.


The upcoming "GM approved" Racor pre-filter with water trap is sounding better and better to me. Two levels of water seperation with WIF and Heat on both filter units. I'll probably go with the supplied 10 micron aquablock filter.


jeff

So than Rotella DFA is ok to use.

Yes. it contains a demulsifier and contains no alcohol. It does not contain an emulsifier for dealing with water. GM recommends avoiding alcohol and emulsifiers to avoid engine damage.


jeff

I'm relatively new to this forum and diesel engines; but after hearing this I went out to the Primrose 405 product site because folks on this board have said so many good things about it - and it specifically indicated on the product's website that it has an emulsifier in it.


These products all swear to enhance the life/economy of your diesel engine. I'd like to hear what some of you 'seasoned' diesel owners think of Primrose. Should it be avoided specifically because of it's emulsifier?


Thanks in advance to your response.

I'm relatively new to this forum and diesel engines; but after hearing this I went out to the Primrose 405 product site because folks on this board have said so many good things about it - and it specifically indicated on the product's website that it has an emulsifier in it.


These products all swear to enhance the life/economy of your diesel engine. I'd like to hear what some of you 'seasoned' diesel owners think of Primrose. Should it be avoided specifically because of it's emulsifier?


Thanks in advance to your response.





Go to search and type in "emulsifiers" in the Search for block, and click on "Message Body" in the next block. You'll get 3 months worth of very intelligent argument on the subject.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I am glad this came up about Rotella DFA; I have been using for about a year now. A couple of times I forgot to add it and I can litterally hear a difference in engine sound. I think it is a good product and I also use their motor oil. Since we are ossue

Finishing my post since my computer freaked out,I was going to say I change the fuel filter about every 8000 miles. ESMO

Finishing my post since my computer freaked out... ESMO


Are you using the right additive in your computer?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

dmax lover..nice posts...its good to read clarity in what you write...cuz it gets pretty confusing with all the scientology surrounding petroleum, additives etc. Like you, i am searching hard to find the right products to abide by manufacturers recommendations and safeguard my engine. thanks alot Jeff..

I'm relatively new to this forum and diesel engines; but after hearing this I went out to the Primrose 405 product site because folks on this board have said so many good things about it - and it specifically indicated on the product's website that it has an emulsifier in it.


These products all swear to enhance the life/economy of your diesel engine. I'd like to hear what some of you 'seasoned' diesel owners think of Primrose. Should it be avoided specifically because of it's emulsifier?


Thanks in advance to your response.





Go to search and type in "emulsifiers" in the Search for block, and click on "Message Body" in the next block. You'll get 3 months worth of very intelligent argument on the subject.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

The thing that the tech rep from shell corporation adds to the previous "intelligent discussions" is that water in emulsion will seriously damage the injectors; The previous discussions assume that only free water can damage the injectors.

Given that this is the case, how can anyone defend the use of an emulsifying additive now? If you disagree - don't shoot the messenger - feel free to trek on over to the rotella site and post on the forum there - the shell techrep usually responds within a day or two.

I'll be buying shell rotella DFA; Stanadyne looks good too and blending the performance formula and the lubricity formula is tempting... Frankly, I like the shell rotella better simply because they don't make alot of wild claims.


jeff

Jeff, I think the major wild claim in the Rotella report is the part about the separated water remaining in a separate layer in the bottom of the tank. I believe this would certainly be the case in a tank in my backyard, but unfortunately, my tank moves down the road with me, enjoying the mixing action of every pothole, bump, stop, go and whatever as I roll merrily along. I don't believe that separate layer is going to remain separate very long in a real-world environment unless the roads in Oregon are a lot smoother than they are around here. (That being said, I do have Rotella DFA in my tank right now. Just not sure I'm going to keep using it.) I think the whole purpose of the emulsifiers is to prevent that layer of free water in the bottom of the tank in the first place. If it isn't allowed to build up, it won't reach a point where it will be able to damage the injectors. I think, maybe, I guess? The gurus keep stressing that it's preventive maintenance, not a fix.Edited by: jbh2000

I don't see the description of water settling as a "wild claim". I see it as a simplified description that the layman can understand. Making the statement "a demulsifier is used to increase the probability that water droplets will coalesce" might confuse some.

So what if I take the gurus advice and choose to use an emulsifier to keep the water from "building up" in my tank. Is this maintenance? I would deal with the "free water" because it is what I can see. And if I make it so I can't see it, then it won't hurt my engine? Right?

Both "free water" and "water in emulsion" will damage the injectors. At what point will the water in emulsion cause increased wear on my injectors? A little? A medium amount? At what point does the wear become "destructive"? Do I really want to find out by using an emulsifier and defeating the water trap?

jeff

I'm going to take a look see under my truck when I get the chance and see it there's a way to install a drain on tank that would be convenient to use[with a petcock}.


Seems to me the best bet is a demulsifier additive, let truck sit a while, open drain till water is gone and close.

I think I'll emulsify for awhile then demulsify for awhilehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif.


Good think buying beer isn't as complicatedhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif.Edited by: winmck

Dmaxlover...I don't think the water settling is a wild claim...I do believe that it is not going to stay settled unless the tank stays still. With the normal sloshing going on, I believe that the more water in the bottom of the tank, the more free water will make it past our decidedly inefficient filter. As water settles, where is it going to go?Dirty old man has a great idea. If we could mount a low point drain on the tank, I'd definitely demulsify. Shoot, I'm still demulsifying, but I'm about to change my mind.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

I have also been thinking about ways to get rid of any free water that might accumulate in the tank. A drain in the tank would be best but the tank wall thickness seems a little thin for installing one that would be reliable and not leak. But, I’m open to suggestions.
Another thought is to drain the tank down using my lift pump, then add some Power Service Diesel 911 along with a few gallons of fuel and pump out again. This should clear up any small amount of water. I would then top off with fresh fuel. The concern I have with this method is the Diesel 911. I received an email form Power service that said the 911 contains no alcohol but it doesn’t say that on the bottle. They are also elusive in their answers about how their products handle water. I may buy a bottle and try it out with an open container of fuel to see how it handles a little added water. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Dmaxlover...I don't think the water settling is a wild claim...I do believe that it is not going to stay settled unless the tank stays still. With the normal sloshing going on, I believe that the more water in the bottom of the tank, the more free water will make it past our decidedly inefficient filter. As water settles, where is it going to go?Dirty old man has a great idea. If we could mount a low point drain on the tank, I'd definitely demulsify. Shoot, I'm still demulsifying, but I'm about to change my mind.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


I am not concerned whether their is a bunch of water droplets in the bottom of the tank or a layer of free water - both are more likely to be retained by the water trap and decrease the chance of water damaging the injectors.


Those on this board who promote emulsifiers state that the fuel gets shaken into emulsion anyway and defeats any demulsifier added to the fuel. I don't believe this argument is valid; It is definitely self-serving since those making the argument are promoting emulsifying additives and profit from the sale of them.


On another topic, I was unable to find rotella DFA anywhere locally and ordered some stanadyne performance formula from oregon fuel injection close to me - got it the next day on my doorstep. Less smoke this morning on startup/warmup and seems smoother (but could be my imagination). But, I don't care so much about performance increase; I want lubricity, corrosion protection and demulsifier provided by the additive.


I have also ordered some "one shot" stanadyne lubricity formula and will drop this in every other fillup. VW recommends this for their diesels with Bosch fuel injection.


I do top off my tank whenever the guage reads half full; My reasoning is less chance for condensation/moisture in tank and also fuel is cleaner after it has been in tank for a bit (filtered fuel returned to tank?) - not sure about the second reason - is this right?


thanks,


jeff





Edited by: dmax lover

Jeff,
It seems we are in the minority around here but I’m with you on using a water demulsifying fuel additive. I have been using Stanadyne Performance Formula for about 5 years - first in my 6.5TD and now in my Dmax. Prior to that I always used Power Service. My personal conclusions after reading everything I could find on the subject was that the less water in the fuel – emulsified or free – the better. In the 19 years that I have owned Diesel’s I have always used an additive and I have never found any more than a few drops of water in any of my filters. Although I have never had a water-in-fuel problem, I still worry that if some small amount of water were to accumulate in the tank from a bad load of fuel or demulsification, it may provide a breeding ground for algae. So I’m still looking for a good way to periodically drain the tank and clear out any water that might be accumulating there.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Wal-Mart carries Rotella DFA.

Wal-Mart carries Rotella DFA.


This must be on a store by store basis. The Wal-Marts arround me just carry Power Service.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gifEdited by: JohnnyO

Wal-Mart carries Rotella DFA.


This must be on a store by store basis. The Wal-Marts arround me just carry Power Service.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif





I tried the walmart in woodburn, oregon and didn't find it.


On a positive note, after a few more miles running stanadyne I can definitely say that it runs smoother, quieter with less "foot into it" to move around. Works for me.


jeff

My wife is hating this web site already. I tell her I will be right back up from my office after putting my clothes in the laundry and two hours later - here I set still reading.


Anyways - back on topic here. I just bought a case of Stanadye from a local injection service shop. All they do is work on injectors and fuel delivery systems - primarily commercial diesels.


They recommend the Stanadyne (or course - they sell it!) and GM put a blessing on it, so that is what I am using as well. I can tell a difference in smoother running and better mileage. I am up just over 1 mile per gallon on two consecutive tanks now with Stanadyne. Don't know if that is good or bad - but will take what I can get.


The local Wally-World does not sell Shell DFA, and never heard of Primrose until I started doing research and found this site. Looks like I have some more reading to do. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

I have been reading this forum and been having a hard time deciding which way to go. I do belive in following GM recomendations, and reading the harm that water / alge will do is driving me nuts!


I think ?? that I will follow GM recommendations as it seems to me the issue of encapsulated water passing through the injectors could or would cause damage, and void the warranty if found in your fuel system. I do believe that using a demulsifier will allow water to seperate and settle to the bottom of the tank which brings up the next issue.


How to deal with the entraped water.


I like JBPLOCKS idea, so when my new truck arrives I will be checking out a way to install a drain in the bottom of the fuel tank. If this is not do-able "Thin Metal", I will build a replacement fuel tank. The tank might end up being mounted in the bed of the truck if necessary and pump fuel to the oem tank.


This will be a three fold setup:


allow more fuel storage


place to drain water


Allow for pre oem fuel filtration on new tank installed





I know this probably seems anal, butt I believe water, and dirty fuel are the biggest problems for the injection systems on these trucks. Any comments on this idea or what others think or are doing is welcomed.


Sorry for the long post, just looking to take care of this vehicle for the next 20 years.

I have owned two diesel tractors since 1988. I buy fuel from local stations, and have my own 150 gallon bulk tank. I have never used additives in the tractors until I started reading this forum. I have found minimal water in the tractor with the steel fuel tank, maybe a shot glass TOTAL over the years. It has a glass bottom on it's engines fuel filter. Filter get changed once a year. The bulk tank has a water seperator filter with a clear plastic bottom too. I might get a 1/4 ounce of water a year out of it, probably due to condensation, as it is a steel tank. Have never seen any water in the little tractor with the plastic tank.

How to deal with the entraped water. .... I will be checking out a way to install a drain in the bottom of the fuel tank.... might end up being mounted in the bed of the truck if necessary and pump fuel to the oem tank.


This will be a three fold setup:


allow more fuel storage


place to drain water


Allow for pre oem fuel filtration on new tank installed


I know this probably seems anal, butt I believe water, and dirty fuel are the biggest problems for the injection systems on these trucks. Any comments on this idea or what others think or are doing is welcomed.


04wanabemax,
Good ideas! FWIW, in the 19 years I have owned diesels I have never had a problem with water in the fuel and never found more than a drop or two of water in the filter when draining or changing. Probably just dumb luck but I’ve always used an additive and tried to consistently buy fuel from high volume reputable dealers. I also try to keep the tank half at least half full to minimize condensation and if I let the vehicle sit for more than a day or two I try to top it off first. However there is always the chance of getting a bad load of fuel – which is when the water separator and WIF sensor will hopefully do there job and warn us to shut down. Not to debate the emulsifier/de-mulsifier issue again, but if one were to get a bad load of fuel, it doesn’t matter which type of additive you are using since neither can handle a slug of water. So a tank drain sure would be nice. If you can figure out a way to add one that would be great!
I have also thought about periodically adding a little PS Diesel 911 when the tank is low, pump out the treated remainder with my lift pump and top off with fresh fuel.
My 85 VW Diesel had a water separator/drain right in the tank. When the car was new I drained it once and didn’t find any water. It also leaked for about a month after that. Once I got it to stop leaking I never touched it again and when I sold it with 175kmi it was still going strong with the original Injection pump and no water to be found. This is just my personal experience but I guess the point is that given that I’m ultra-anal and worry about every possible scenario, the chance of having a problem with water accumulating in the tank is low. It can and does happen, but if you carefully maintain your truck the chances can be minimized.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gifEdited by: jbplock

Sam's Club sells the Rotella DFA, I've never seen it at Walmart.

I wanted to share a few problems we have had at work, and I have become paranoid due them. I work for a local utility and we have a 50 Mega Watt generator run by two Pratt &amp; Whitney Jet engines. 2-3 years ago we had a fuel issue with a bad load of fuel. (This unit uses 100 gal per M.W.H, OR 5000 Gallons Per Hour at full load) we had approximately 3000 Gallons of water &amp; sludge mix dumped into our 1,000,000 Gal tank. Since the unit is gravity feed it pulls from the bottom of the tank. The unit tripped off line at a full 50 MEGA WATTS the first time the unit was run after being fueled. When the filter's were emptied (1 for each engine) we had 150 gallons of sludge / water mix in each. We then had to have the tank pumped and determined how much bad fuel / water sludge was in our tank. The fuel supplier determined the problem came from the loading point, but who knows if this was the point of origin or not.


On another note; This past week the temp here was -30 below in Montpelier Vermont, and I had trouble with our Internatoinal Diesel bucket truck 2002 (it stayed running but you could tell it was trying to gel up), I had put antigel additive in it before we left to got out to work at 11:00 pm. When arrving back at the shop at 9:00 am the next morning we found the fuel pumps were froze up. We have 10 large trucks and 10 3500/ 2500 diesels also and go through a lot of fuel which is also filterd at the pump and all fuel filters are changed at 3000 mile intervals.


This is my reason for being concerned about water in the fuel when being called out at all hours of the night, and planning on going cross country on vacation, not knowing what to expect for fuel along the way. Any thoughts? I will start a thread when I have installed my pre oem filter and tank water drain setup.

From all of the posts on this topic, I get the impression that everyone thinks there is a 1/4"-1" layer of water in their tank.


Doesn't fuel get drawn from the BOTTOM of the tank?


I don't think water rusting the tank is anything to worry about. I think that this whole topic might have been blown out of proportion. You probably get more water in your tank from condensation on a 1/4 full tank than you do from water in the fuel. On average I'd be willing to bet that there is less than a tsp. of water in anyone's tank. And don't forget that the water will be seperated out at the filter! A good demulsifier additive is a good idea for several reasons, but no one should worry about water desroying their tank.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Edited by: Mr. Mister

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifJust bought Rotella DFA for $2.50. Local Southern Califronia Walt Marts have a special now down from $4.85.


Marco Polo

My local Wal-Mart carries the Shell DFA. But the Instructions are not very clear on how much to use. It just says it treats up to 100 gallonshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif. I have the 26 gallon tank so I have been using about a quarter bottle for a Fill-up. Is that about what everyone else is using?

I keep an 8 oz. 2 cycle engine oil container; wich I cleaned out very well in the tool box, get 4 equal treatments. try to keep it up-rite that stuff has a way of leaking no matter how tight the lid is on. just an easy method for measuring and adding. Wayne.

My local Wal-Mart carries the Shell DFA. But the Instructions are not very clear on how much to use. It just says it treats up to 100 gallonshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif. I have the 26 gallon tank so I have been using about a quarter bottle for a Fill-up. Is that about what everyone else is using?


Look on the rotella website - I haven't looked in a while, but I am fairly sure that the mix ratio is 500:1; Lets see, 128 ounces per gallon times 26 gallons divided by 500 =&gt; 6.7 ounces. So yup, 1/4 bottle per tank (8 ounces) about right and Shell says no harm in overtreating it a bit.


jeff