I know this has been discussed a million times but want to get a little more feedback before I take this plunge. What are the pros and cons ? performace and driveability issues if any, and performance ? I want to go with the powershot set up, with pane starting at 5psi and building up, 8-10 gal tank mounted into the tool box in back. Thanks again

I think that making extra power on lp is easier on the engine than adding more diesel. LP burns slower, so it makes its power through the power stroke rather than all at the top, which decreases peak cylinder pressures. It seems like the stresses on the parts would be alot lower. With mine, the engine is quieter while making power, which would seem to support my theory. An interesting thing about mine is that it makes less boost while on lp. On straight diesel, I have 4 lbs boost at 70 mph. With the lp on, it is 2.5 lbs. I believe this to be the case because unless a diesel is smoking, it has excess oxygen that isn't being burned going out the tailpipe. The lp is utilizing this oxygen, so you are making more power with the same amount of air being pumped through the engine. Consequently, the throttle backs off because the truck would speed up with more power being produced. My truck will smoke it I give heavy throttle until the boost catches up with the excess fuel from the lp. It sure makes great torque with the lp on!

Propane is an excellent addition to a turbo diesel provided it is used sensibly and in moderation.

Where it gets to be a con is when you start injecting too much, mixing types of spray etc...

How much power is safe with propane? 40HP? 60HP? 100HP?

I think that it is safe to the point of going rich enough to ignite under compression. Then it probably becomes the most destructive mod you could do. Since lp is going in with the air, it has to be kept lean enough to avoid being able to ignite under compression. Under normal conditions, even though the mixture is too lean to burn by spark plug ignition, it will burn when the diesel fuel is injected. A friend told me that a few years ago an lp setup was featured on some hotrod show. They dynoed a stock Dmax, at the wheels it was 196 HP. (Don't know why it wasn't more than that) They put lp on it, it then made 427 HP. I didn't see the program, so I can't vouch for its validity. I have never had my truck on a dyno, and I have no idea what real world numbers are safe and unsafe.

My Powershot system uses 4, 5 Gallon BBQ tanks hidden inside a "Tool box" behind the cab. (Total of 18 liquid gallons) I had a custom 4 into 1 propane hose made, It goes into the powershot. All 4 tanks are open at the same time. Two RV style hold downs keep the tanks secured to the box.

Everything is enclosed in the box except the boost line, propane line, and power switch wire. All can all be unhooked from the front, fished back into the box and locked up if I need to see the dealer.

Everything is made to be refilled and reinstalled without using any tools.

I really haven't seen any overall mileage gain, but the power Propane adds is nice. I've been very happy with it so far.
The Edge is a much bigger bang for the buck, if you are looking at power gains only. However Propane allows me to run a lower setting on the Edge and still get the power gains while not having any negative effects of the Edges higher power levels.

I get about 1000 miles between propane refills. My system comes on at 3 psi, at that point it is at .5 cfm. At 20 psi it is at about 5.5 CFM.

But.....can't we run a gasoline motor on propane?

So should we just mix a little gas in with our diesel and get the same effect?:eek:

I'm still trying to figure out what strength of Hydrogen Peroxide to inject.

Quotes,
"But.....can't we run a gasoline motor on propane?"

"I'm still trying to figure out what strength of Hydrogen Peroxide to inject."

:lol: Seriously though, Propane is an interesting issue. LLYDMAX seems to have a nice setup.
Please continue,

Greg McCall

And seriously you can inject propane into a gasser and get it to run. Quite a few of the dodge and other wackos are running it instead of gas to richen up for spraying.

I would like to get a deccent disscusion of what effects injecting a fuel with your air with different burn caracteristics than diesel has on your motor. I suppose maybe its like a K&N air filter? Yes we know dirt may not be the best on a motor but its at what point its actually bad?

I know people run propane sucessfully but I know people that run furds successfully, dont mean a furd is right for me;)

Gas engines use propane to control detonation so they can run higher octane fuel. Different purpose than on a diesel.

The key to success or at least not failurehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif IMHO with injecting any fuel with diesel is to be able to control the amount of propane, nitrous, water that is being introduced at any given time. Most products available have no way to do that and leave it up to the consumer to determine the "right" amount at the right time. That is the recipe for trouble. Most think, If a little is good, more will be betterhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif and that is not the case at all. The other misconception is that people think you are trying to run the engine on propane as well as diesel. Not enough is used to even start the vehicle. It takes a small amount at any given boost pressure to help complete the combustion. Propane doesn't make power on it's own. The more complete burn of the diesel fuel where the power comes from.


"My system comes on at 3 psi, at that point it is at .5 cfm. At 20 psi it is at about 5.5 CFM."

The amount that can be safely utilized at 20 psi can not be properly utilized at 3 psi. So what you get at 20 psi of boost you really shouldnt have at 3 pounds of boost. Tha'ts why the variable flow makes such a difference.

How much power is safe with propane? 40HP? 60HP? 100HP?

Most customers see about an 80-90 hp gain with the addition of propane injection and reasonable electronics enhancements. (like a Juice or single box) It is safe and very driveable power with no EGT concerns or "funny noises" Now, if you have 4 boxes stacked http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif with nitrous and water/meth etc., well then the you are not going to be able to run nearly the amount of propane (or any fuel except perhaps nitrous) that you could and at that point probably only half the amount of power would be able to be utilized and with all of the modifications, you are beginnning to push the envelope. What most people want is a fast and reliable daily driver that they can tow with and blow the doors off any thing that comes into view.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif


LLYDmax, with that low start time, you may want to reduce the flow amount just about a 1/4 turn or so. You won't really notice a decrease in power, but it should help to get you a longer range out of the propane. Remember, the sooner you start it, the more it uses all the way through. A heavy right foothttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif can make it go in a hurry!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Propane is slower burning than diesel fuel. Headgaskets and rods will only take so much abuse if you're using too much propane because it's still burning on the power stroke when the piston is coming back up.

Gas engines use propane to control detonation so they can run higher octane fuel. Different purpose than on a diesel.


Could you please explain both of these:confused: Thanks:)

Im sorry, that was confusing what I meant to say, was that it allows them to run higher boost on pump gas. More for ricers,

I duno bout running a sc but I was under the impression that when running N2O you couldnt run your regular fuel cell and then run your enrichment for the spray outa another cell being high octane fuel and expect that to controll detonation. The other fuel still wanted to ignight and it didnt really mix and raise its effective octane. You have to run the same octane for the carb or injectors as the inrichment. Not exactly apples to apples and I duno if its the same idea or not? Duno if I even explained myself well???

I guess what I am basicly asking is........

In a diesel does the propan mix with the fuel and alter its properties so its one differnt explosion(than it would be with straight #2) or for the most part are you dealing with 2 different bangs going on in the chamber at the same time????

Here is a good explanation of what takes place:


Introducing LPG gas into the combustion air intake of a diesel engine acts as an accelerant, promoting the even burning of the diesel fuel, and more complete combustion, resulting in more power being produced. Propane by itself will not self-ignite inside a diesel-fuel compression-ignition engine. During the compression stroke, the air/LPG mixture is compressed and the temperature is raised to about 400?C, not enough to ignite the LPG, which has an ignition temperature of about 500?C. When the diesel fuel is atomized into the cylinder under high pressure, it immediately self-ignites (diesel ignites at about 385?C.), and causes the LPG to burn as well. Since the LPG is in mixture with the air, the flame front from the diesel spreads more quickly, and more completely, including igniting the air/fuel mixture which is in contact with the cylinder walls, which are cool in comparison to the super-heated air inside the combustion chamber. Much of the cleaner burning of the fuel is attributed to this ignition against the "cooler" components of the engine, and accounts for raising the percentage of combustion from a typical 75% for a well-tuned diesel engine running on pure diesel fuel alone, to 85-90% with the addition of LPG. Obviously, this more complete combustion also gives a nice boost in power, with an accompanying increase in fuel economy and reduction of pollutants.

Thanks for the explination:)

Why have I heard some people talk about it screwing with the "timing" then if it dosnt go off untill the diesel is there? How could there be anyproblem with not using it in "moderation" wouldnt it just be like running way to much #2 or is it that it turns back to a liquid if too much propan is in the cylinder when it is compressed?

Any ideas on how one can decern what is too much? other than when parts get spit outa the side of the block you should use less next time?

Detonation will be the limiting factor. There is no way liquid propane would ever make it to the cylinder, so that isn't a concern. If you put in enough lp to get close to a stoichiometric (perfect mixture of gas and oxygen) mixture, then you will get detonation. Even though in theory the compression temp isn't high enough to ignite the lp, it will still happen. Stoich for lp is 15.6 to one, meaning 15.6 lbs of air to 1 lb of gas. This is what you strive for on a gasser, but they are a completely different ball game. The regulator that I use for lp is from a gas motor, but I don't use a fuel mixer like a gasser does. The regulator on my Dmax simply responds to varying amounts of vacuum on the inlet side of the turbo to control gas flow. So it is fully modulated, with a ball valve between the reg and the turbo to control the fuel curve. I run a 3/4" hose from the reg to the turbo, but don't have the ball valve completely open because of cruise control hunting. This setup yields about 50/50 diesel propane ratio. I am told that you can run up to 85% lp or cng, above that there isn't enough diesel being used to reliably ignite the mixture. My setup obviously uses lots of propane, which accounts for me having a 100 gal tank. I get 2600 to 3000 miles to a tank of lp, and up to 950 miles to a tank of diesel.

soooooo......

squishing the propane wont creat enough heat for it to self ignight but with it getting squished it may ignight of say a hot exhaust valve or any other hot spot in the chamber?

15.6 to one is considered the perfect mix for propane to go bang......any less than that and any more than that and it isnt as likely to go bang and it wont creat as big(hot) of a bang.

I suppose one could sit down and figure out what the LEL(lower explosive limit) of is propane and make sure no more than that goes into the motor since it physicly couldnt go bang. But with a constantly changing boost and then adding N2O into the mix that would get ugly. Plus just adding what ever the propane up to the LEL wouldnt result in much added fuel.

So how can you determine whats safe?

At least with our Al heads I would assume there is less hotspots in the chamber.....but I bet those exhaust valves are smoking hot.

Also out short stroke would help us compared to a cummins but if the propane is burning so slow that its still burning when the piston is coming up in a PS then what the heck is it doing in our motor at 3200(plus if you are talking about pullers swinging 3-4k)

How fast does propane burn and whats our stroke again????

Havent a clue, just thinking out loud........:confused: :confused: :confused:

Propane doesn't burn that slow, it just burns slower than diesel, and a bit slower than gasoline. Speed of burn is inversely proportional to octane rating. Natural gas burns slower than propane, and can stand more compression ratio in a gasser than propane, which will stand more than cheap gas.

I thought the higher the octane the slower it burned??? Isnt 93 less volitile and burn slower than 89 octane?

<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600">

<v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Source: Alternative Fuels Guidebook</v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Property Propane </v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Octane 104.5 </v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Auto ignition</v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Temperature 855F/457C</v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Stoichiometric</v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">air/fuel/ratio</v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">(by weight) 15.7 </v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">GASOLINE</v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">

<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Octane 84-95</v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Auto ignition</v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Temperature 495F/257C</v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Stoichiometric</v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">air/fuel/ratio </v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">(by weight) 14.7</v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">#2 Diesel</v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">

<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Octane n/a</v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Auto ignition</v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Temperature 600F/316C</v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">Stoichiometric</v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">air/fuel/ratio </v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png">(by weight) 14.7</v:imagedata></v:shape>
</v:imagedata></v:shape></v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
<v:shape style="WIDTH: 390.75pt; HEIGHT: 606pt" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:title='\\\\"comparingfuels\\\\"' src="file:///C:/temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.png"></v:imagedata></v:shape></v:shapetype></v:shapetype></v:imagedata></v:shape></v:imagedata></v:shape>

I didn't clarify that post very well. What I mean't was that propane burns slower than diesel, but not so slow that it is still burning in the exhaust stroke. Propane will do that if you are excessively rich on a gasser, but with proper mixture it doesn't. CNG has a higher octane rating than propane, and burns slower than propane. Because of that, you need higher compression and more advanced ignition timing to get good efficiency from CNG. Same holds true with propane and gasoline. Propane tolerates higher compression and earlier timing than low octane gasoline. The chart above shows propane at 104 octane rating, but in real life it isn't that good. My '91 gasser has 10:1 and will ping a little on lp when really working hard. With gasoline, 104 octane could probably stand 13:1. One of these days, I would like to put CNG on a diesel and see how it does. I have free gas on the property, but lack the compressor to get enough in a tank to get any range.

So is it supposed to not go bang before the Diesel goes bang? And if so how can you be sure of this or does that just fall into the dont inject too much? How do you know what too much is?

You are correct, the diesel ignites when injected, causing the lp to burn. If the lp preignites, you get terrible detonation (pinging) just like a gas engine except worse. If you want to maximize the amount of lp, keep adding until you get detonation, then back off some. I would prefer not to get that close, however. It would probably take quite a bit of lp to do that at high boost levels. Mine comsumes the same amount of lp as diesel and I am lean enough to avoid detonation, probably by quite a bit.

If you are using it as just a WOT power adder so as long as you dont get it kersploading before the big bang from the diesel and your motor dosnt injest a slug of liquid pane you are seeing no ill efects and running no added risk other than more fuel in there and more power?

If you are running it to supliment diesel fuel then you run the above risks plus a bit of problems since it is much "dryer" and has less lubricity than diesel?

The fact that propane burns different isnt an issue as long as you dont add too much?

Thoughts comments oppinions??????

The lubricity thing is a non-issue. Gassers that run straight lp last up to 4 times longer because of no fuel washing oil off the cylinder walls, and no carbon production. The diesel fuel is still providing lubricity for the valve contact surfaces. I suppose if you ran 85% lp in a diesel all the time, it would be harder on valves and seats. These materials are much better than they used to be, so I don't think it's much of a problem. Certainly no problem for the occasional WOT hotrodding. I had high nickel content seats and marine valves put in my '91 454 to ensure no valve recession. Those hard seats do make noise however. That motor sounds alot like a diesel at low speeds.

Propane doesn't burn that slow, it just burns slower than diesel, and a bit slower than gasoline. Speed of burn is inversely proportional to octane rating. Natural gas burns slower than propane, and can stand more compression ratio in a gasser than propane, which will stand more than cheap gas.
I always thought that octane was the fuel's resistance to detonation. Burn rate for each fuel is not necessarily a function, directly or indirectly, of octane. :rant:

Does anyone have a system that will cut off the propane flow during ****s, since the allison has the defueling when in between shifts to protect the transmission by cutting the engine power

I always thought that octane was the fuel's resistance to detonation. Burn rate for each fuel is not necessarily a function, directly or indirectly, of octane. :rant:
You are correct.

Flame speed (propogation through a mixture), depends mostly on molecular weight. Hydrogen is fastest, methane a bit slower...etc.

Octane number is a measure of resistance to spontaneous ignition...not energy content, or flame speed.

I would like to have a simple way to turn off the lp during shifts on my setup. I suppose one could design a circuit that monitored one of the injectors. When it saw the injector pulse width go to zero, it would shut it off until it saw it come back. I soft pedal mine through the gears to avoid stressing the trans.