Mackin & Dieselpower,

Could we put together a sticky thread that details what each trans upgrade consists of and how it works? Just facts, so that the rest of us can understand the differences and then know what questions we need to ask for our particular use?

We could compile the info then lock the thread. This way it would for info only. Many of us "normal" users are uterly confused. I know that each are fully capable and none are a "bad" choice. But, Eric did state that each works a little different and some are better suited toward different extremes.

What do you guys think?

Thanks! :ro)

Speaking for one of the "normal users" I like this idea. This is an expensive upgrade and I feel the more information for the people that don't speak the tranny lingo could get the better. Good idea IMHO cdhd2001.

Here is my two ways of looking at it.

First, Excellent idea

Second, Bad idea

I believe in order to do it, Each trans manufacture can submit a post on how/what/why/ etc. This would be proof read by the moderators to ensure no bashing etc of other venders. As long as measures are taken to ensure it dont turn in to another pissing match it should work. Trans installers such as myself and Mike L would stay out of that part of it. Mike and I both have opinions on what works good for particular applications, but should not be taken into the "heart" of that thread.

How about it?

I just want a good informative post without the arguments. This idea has worked on previous posts/threads. Locking the thread after it is created is a good way to keep out the "peeing matches". :)

Here is my two ways of looking at it.

First, Excellent idea

Second, Bad idea

I believe in order to do it, Each trans manufacture can submit a post on how/what/why/ etc. This would be proof read by the moderators to ensure no bashing etc of other venders. As long as measures are taken to ensure it dont turn in to another pissing match it should work. Trans installers such as myself and Mike L would stay out of that part of it. Mike and I both have opinions on what works good for particular applications, but should not be taken into the "heart" of that thread.

How about it?

JMO but the current "pissing" contests have gotten out some great info. Without being able to "debate" amongst each other I think all you would get is a snapshot from thier website propoganda. I think everybody relizes that if they get to pissy and persoanl that potential buyers are going to say screw it I aint buying from jim bob since he is an ass.

I say we open a thread and say:boxing::grd: and let evey body weigh in and use thier own judgement. Its good to have question from the regular joes and comments by guys that have experience with it. Then copy all the usefull info(have a feeling a free for all will turn rather lenghty and full of BS) into a sticky thread that the mods can add to as they see fit. I think the mods can be trusted to NOT be BIAS(oops, meaned not:o: ) in copying to the sticky and the original thread can remain if anyone wants to read the full deal instead of the readers digest version.

JMO

I tried this a while back, and was shot down and called names:D
All i was lookin for was what each guy had to do to trash his tranny, so that i didnt make the saem mistake. I work too dam hard to throw that kind of $$ out the window.
I like the idea, i know it would help lots of guys out here. But like RATLOVER said the pissin matches give out good info too, you just have to read between the lines:cool:

I don't think this idea will fly. I think if you have questions about a product it should be directed to the manufacturer first and explained by him. You will wind up calling him anyways for further explanation because all the info can not possibly be put in a thread. Administrators should stay out of vendors business unless rules are violated; they should not be called on to explain a product unless they choose to share their experience with a particular product like we do.

mike

Wow, that was well said Mike.

It is nice to have everything handed to you on a silver platter but sometimes you need to dig. I agree with Mike L.'s reply 100%. That reply is full of unsaid information, the kind you find when you dig.;)


Burner----------------->:D

Mike L. I think you are correct from a "moral" standpoint.

I believe you will let products and experience speak for themselves rather than ramming something down someone elses throat and that is something that you don't see too much (although I wish it were the norm).

That being said:

1.) Many people don't have the time to call X amount of vendors and X amount of time on the phone/web. And even if they do, there is no guarantee that they are going to get valid information.......

2.) Many of the vendors selling "snake oil" type products are very vocal and flashy and put a lot of energy into marketing rather than product design. If they have an existing outstanding product that is fine, but that is usually not the case. "Squeaky wheel gets the grease, just as the loudest vendor [usually] gets the most sales"

With a side by side comparison of company A, B, C, etc. and what they offer (no sales pitches), and design features/specs, would allow the average joe to make a semi-informed decision.

I don't know how realistic the next part would be, but I have seen on many local forums here that guys are doing "dyno days" where there are many people to witness. It would be nice to have what people are running for tranny mods, engine/computer mods, HP/TQ figures (from dyno sheets), competitions they compete in, how long they have been running the tranny that way, any problems, and most important for the average Joe......how it shifts on the street for D/D duties.

I know that is asking alot, and I know I am new here, but I would be willing to compile the information if PM'd to me and verified by other members who were at the dyno. Does it mean people still couldn't lie.....NO, but I think it would be better than the posts that have gone into tangents here. What does everyone think http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/help.gif or it this just a http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/badidea.gif (by the way, I love the new smilies http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/grd.gif

I understand your point of view and agree with it 100% in an ideal world, but as we have all seen, there are many people/businesses trying to sell people on unsubstantiated claims. Giving the average Joe some basic information will allow him/her to weed through some of the BS and narrow the number of vendors he/she will need to call to get more information, and I do agree that anyone going to spend that amount of money should call the vendor/manufacturer before hand (I'm not saying this should take the place of that at all).



I don't think this idea will fly. I think if you have questions about a product it should be directed to the manufacturer first and explained by him. You will wind up calling him anyways for further explanation because all the info can not possibly be put in a thread. Administrators should stay out of vendors business unless rules are violated; they should not be called on to explain a product unless they choose to share their experience with a particular product like we do.

mike

I would say that the idea won't work. :(

Each Vendor has gone about the upgrade in a slighly different way.......:)

There are many smaller tweaks that are not going to be divulged.........:badidea:

Some require in house CNC machine work that eliminate the ability for a kit form.:damnit1:

Plus is boils down to what you need, what are you going to do with the truck, how big or deep is your wallet, etc. :eyecrazy:

I would not be "FOR" that type of thread as changes are made all the time to improve the kits and assmblies and intellectual property is at times "borrowed" as well.........so how best to protect that ?????

I would say "No" if asked, instead I would let the Q/A continue in an open thread ......:blahblah: ......the members here are not so agenda oriented that the info will be inncorrect, there will be personal opinions as always, but I think we are a good group.................:exactly:


Personally my Suncoast III is doing just fine.............it shifts great and has excellent street manners............



Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif NY

This might be apples to oranges but:

Imagine if the product was a Camcorder instead of a transmission -

One company makes claims of superiority, then the next company makes claims of superiority.

Next, one company says, "Yeah, but your battery burns up too fast"
Fired back is, "Your tape drive mechanism has alignment problems"
"Your service sucks"
"You use inferior chips in the board"
etc, etc.

Does that make you want to buy either brand?

Just my .02's from a business perspective. Trashing the competition can have undesired effects, that's why it's not the #1 message you see in advertising. Yes, it does happen, but it is actually fairly rare.

The #1 rule of a competitive business is don't badmouth your competition.

A dyno day will show little to no difference in the transmission modification world. Let's look at this from the outside the box a little. On the dyno the vehicle is run at a fixed speed then accelerated up. If it's a load type dyno (Clayton, Superflow, Mustang) the rate of acceleration is controlled by the dyno setup and if it's an acceleration type(Dynojet, Superflow) by the weight of the drum in the dyno. In either case the results are only accurate if the vehicle remains in one gear with the converter locked. With that in mind look at the possible results.
1. Nothing slipping, all will be the same
2. something slipping, all will be different
3. requires all work to be done on the same truck on the same dyno or results are meaningless.

So for the end user to get any meaningful information is pretty hard, and comparing results from one truck to another just will not work.

This very thread illustrates the inherent problem with discussion forums like the Diesel Place. Memebers want one thing. Vendors/Mnaufactures want another. And finally administrators are stuck in the middle.

Memebers want true,clear unbiased info. No snake oil, no sales hype. They also want friendly discussion with other like minded individuals. No heavy sales pressure, just friendship. The hobby aspect of it.

Vendors pay there 50.00 bucks a month. They want sales. They are running a buisness. Some expect a huge return on that 50.00 bucks a month they invest. Some spend most of there time working sales right on this very forum. Vendors want the particualr products they are selling to stand in a more favorble light and appear to be a neccesatiy. Some vendors loose sight of the hobby aspect. A few forget about it all together.

Administartators are stuck in the middle. They just want everyone to be happy and the hit counter to roll at a eye blurring pace. They understand the fragile balance between vendors and members. You can't have one without the other. Ecspecially on a free site. The advertizing revenue keeps the lights on. Vendors expect favorable treatment because they pay money to be here. They have alot at stake. Memebers expect fair treatment because they volunteer all of there time. Without the thousands of memebers and memeber post, there would be nothing here.

So here we are, back where we started.

I think the real question for members is " What can we do on our own without the support of vendors?"

I think the real question for vendors is " How far does 50.00 dollars a month go?"


I think the real question for administarators is " What can we do to acheive/maintain balance/fairness between paying vendors and volunteering members."

Just trying to get to the real issues here. Dr. Phil told me to say this.

I agree with Bronco to an extent. I am in the market for a tranny right now, and I am trying to wait until the DTT thing shakes out. All this bickering between the manufacturers of these transmissions isn't helping me a whole lot. But the good thing about this board is we have people like Mike L., and Eric who are supporting vendors, but don't actually manufacture the trans themselves. They are able to give unbiased info.(hopefully) of their tests, because they are dealers for more than one Trans. company. There are also members who test every product out there (like Guy) and can give unbiased feedback also. That is what I look for, not necessarily anything from the manufacturer. Obviously if a vendor only sells a certain brand of tranny then they will try to persuade you to purchase that particular trans. that's the way business works.

QUOTED from Bronco "This very thread illustrates the inherent problem with discussion forums like the Diesel Place. Members want one thing. Vendors/Maufactures want another. And finally administrators are stuck in the middle."


That statement has some merit..........:) .......members want to make an informed decision, Vendors want an informed membership so that the information is easily understandable,
We Administrators/Moderators try to not get stuck in the middle. ;)


"Members want true,clear unbiased info. No snake oil, no sales hype. They also want friendly discussion with other like minded individuals. No heavy sales pressure, just friendship. The hobby aspect of it."

The true, clear unbiased info is subject to personalities, etc......:idiot: ........What if I bought a "Put any name in here" transmission and it worked great.......then my buddy buys the same on and his truck it doesn't.......is it my fault because I recommend it because of my experience with it and then am I at fault because the next guy had bad luck ??? Thats not sales hype or snake oil..........it's sometimes how thinks work out, and it could be nobodies fault.......:eek:

The discussion between like minded individuals is what this forum is about.....:cool2: ..........I see the page views just like you do, a thread may have 50 posts and 5000 views.........so a lot more reading than posting is going on. The sales pressure is almost non-existant here, that is the policy of the DIESEL PLACE, we encourage Vendor Support but it will never be required for a FREE MEMBERSHIP HERE. :ro)


"Vendors pay there 50.00 bucks a month. They want sales. They are running a business. Some expect a huge return on that 50.00 bucks a month they invest. Some spend most of there time working sales right on this very forum. Vendors want the particualr products they are selling to stand in a more favorble light. Most vendors loose sight of the hobby aspect. Some forget about it all together."


Diesel Power sets the advertising terms with all Vendors, it is used to "PARTLY" cover his forum operating expenses, I do not think it even comes close to covering the hardware and software he has purchased to get to where we are today. :confused:

Vendors have as any business does an expectation that the advertising $$$$$ spent here will result in sales...........they are in the retail business............I disagree that the Vendors lost sight of the hobby aspect as most of them have these trucks and are constantly looking to improve them, as a result we all benefit from it.........:exactly:

"Administartators are stuck in the middle. They just want everyone to be happy. They understand the fragile balance between vendors and members. You just can't have one without the other. Especially on a free site. The advertisng revenue keeps the lights on. Vendors expect special treatment because they pay money to be here. They have alot at stake. Members expect special treatment because they volunteer all of there time. Without the thousands of memebers and memeber post, there would be nothing here."

WE DO NOT EXTEND preferential or special treatment to any Vendors, we extend fairness and will not allow Non Supporting Vendors to try and sneak under the RADAR and use this forum for covert marketing of the SAME products as Supporting Vendors offer. We do however allow open and free market forces between vendors as many will sell the same products here.
Bottom line is membership benefits from the competition via lower price and better customer service. I do not beleive any member/consumer wants special treatment, they understand that the $$$$$$$$$$ they are spending with any Vendor is for a purchase of a product and or service and they want to be treated with respect and fairly.


"So here we are, back where we started."

I think the real question for members is " What can we do on our own without the support of vendors?"

As a member here as well as an Administrator/Moderator it is to make your own informed decision, validate any and all facts if you can, you should PM other members and ask to see if they are happy.........and don't lose sight of the fact that there are a lot of talented people who are working to improve these truck all the time.

I think the real question for vendors is " How far does 50.00 dollars a month go?"

As a non-vendor I think to advertise to 12,000+++ registered members with the ability for millions to see the forums without signing up is a bargain if that is the monthly price.


I think the real question for administarators is " What can we do to acheive/maintain balance/fairness between paying vendors and volunteering members."


WE DO what we need to do without a HEAVY HAND like some other sights like to have.............sometimes the fight has to get a little dirty, without a bloody nose............to get the information to come out. We have learned more about Allision transmissions in 2 months than in 3 years.........



T:cool: NY

We have learned more about Allision transmissions in 2 months than in 3 years.........



T:cool: NY
Yep.
What He Said
PC=+1:D

So, back to the subject line. "Trans Upgrade - What each company does different?" Just like we have divided the performance boxes into pressure and timing catagories. I think a similar thing can be done with the tranny upgrades while staying away from the political who's better hype.

For instance:
ATS increases line pressure, adds clutches to C1, C2.......
Suncoast III Modifies Valve body, adds clutches to ......
.
.
.
And I guess the same could be done for Torque convertes too.

ATS triple disk with ??? sqin clutch surface at a mean center line radius of ??? Stall speed at ????
.
.
.

Now keep in mind some of this info is not on the respective sites and is hard to find here on the Forum if it is here at all.

Just a thought.

Consumer Reports is scheduled to do a "modified" Allison comparison in the future.
:lol:

It all comes down to who you trust.

Members? Some are pimps some are legit.

Vendors? Some spend more in marketing than R&D.
Hint: R&D=Research and Development,
Not Rob and Duplicate.

Administrators? Not to be trusted ever.

As for me, I've always had a bit of a problem with any kind of "Blind Faith". Gather info, process it through your brain and make a decision that is right for you based on your individual parameters.

The bottom line is everybody struggles with what to do with their Allison. ATS, DTT, Suncoast, TTS. There really is no bad decision here. The only bad decision is running a big program and not doing an upgrade.

Members? Some are pimps some are legit.


I fall into the pimp catagory right:pimp: ):h

Nope that was directed at myself, here in Los Angeles we like everything pimp.I fall into the pimp catagory right:pimp: ):h

Even the best products will catch heat on the Interwebberthingy. They don't check ID's at the door as well as they should.

How do you tell what works?

If it was run on a blue vehicle successfully, it's AOK~!:D

Even the best products will catch heat on the Interwebberthingy. They don't check ID's at the door as well as they should.

How do you tell what works?

If it was run on a blue vehicle successfully, it's AOK~!:D:agreed:

ROTFLMAO

Administrators? Not to be trusted ever.


:funnypost


:blahblah:


:badidea:



:thankyou2

I fall into the pimp catagory right:pimp: ):h
Well, at least that ain't as bad as 'Beta Test Whore'):h

But on the upside there is more cool stuff going on...... and i might get on that whore list too Eh?
:exactly:

Philip

Your true colors are showing.:ro) You are a stone sinner my friend. Repent!:eek: How about a couple of phone numbers bro?:cool2:

I can set up a "meeting" for you but I'm afraid the milage and the per diem charged would make it cost prohibitive compared to the services you could aquire localy. I would hook you up but my expenses are set, I have a fixed cost of doing buisness. I'm sure you understand, we are both buisness men after all.

PS I'm sure it all makes sense now why you recieved payment in cash and why all the bills were covered in glitter and smelled like a striper(cheap perfume and alcohol)