Everyone That Is Worried About These Programmers And Air Filters And Exhaust Systems Voiding There Warranty. Obviously Need To Search For This Act On The Net And Read It. It States That It Is Illegal To Have Your Warranty Voided Due To These Modifications Unless They Can Prove 100% Without Any Doubt That That Modification Is What Contributed To Your Failure Which Is Virtually Impossible To Prove. Everyone That Is Nervous And That Has Never Heard About This Needs To Check It Out Asap.

Although your post sounds good, it's not entirely true. You're 'virtually impossibly' to prove clause is just not so. They have a bulletin w/ pictures on how to prove tuners.
They can count the times the DPF is regenning and plugging, and a tuner WOT dumps more fuel out the exhaust causing more re-gens.
They're is ways, some obvious some not.

Welcome to the Diesel Place!
- Jason

This has been common knowledge for a while. Well there is already proof that the programmers are added because they leave specific marking on the engine parts. You can use this as your defense when your truck breaks, but it will do nothing to get it working because you will be blacklisted on all GM dealer computers for warranty work. Sure you can get a lawyer, but how long do you think that process is. Years. GM wouldnt put out a TSB on these add ons if they didnt have ammunition to fight such claims. Work on these diesels isnt cheap either. You can keep your receipts and challenge GM with your mods, but Im leaving my powertrain stock.

Sure they can prove that you have a tuner but they also have to prove that that tuner is what caused the problem and not something else. I have been through this with a dealer in my area and a diesel company called Dick Laings diesel performance the guy i deal with there named Bil has masters degree in diesel engineering and he was the one that helped me through my proble once I started talking about this act with my dealer they had a whole different atitude about my edge juice with attitude I had in my 06 duramax. I had my truck in for service multiple times there after and never once took my chip out. Maybe It is not as easy as it sounds but it worked with my dealer.

yes they can tell...and they can void the warranty..but who cares ..I know I have too much fun playin

You got to pay to play. I would rather spend my time with my family then fighting GM and there bank roll of attorneys. And just so you know this is nothing new and has been disused on this forum since it started.

This has been beat to death - there have been 113 threads that have the word "Magnuson" in them posted on DP according to a search that took 3 seconds to do.

It all comes down to the relationship you have with the individual dealer on whether there is a problem with warranty coverage - HOWEVER - there's no doubt that GM (and Mopar and Ford) is going on the offensive and not paying for some claims that, in their opinion, have been caused by the use of tuners or other add ons. And frankly why should we all pay for damage caused by non-OEM equipment, since that cost gets spread across all the new trucks that are sold. Think you were wrongly excluded - hire a lawyer and sue for damages. Probably not right, but apparently GM thinks there are too many abusers...

As stated before many times - "You play, you pay"

Just my opinion...

I know I'll get flamed for this but here goes.

There is a fair amount of mis information and misunderstanding about MM warranty act on the part of dealers and owners. I make no claims to be an expert on MM, but do have some understanding of it from some coursework. It was enacted decades ago to prevent requirements that the mfg do all required maintenace for your warranty and for what is called "tying". That is requiring you to only buy maint items from the mfg. For example requiring you to buy oil from the dealer and/or have GM do the work. In this case the mfg must do the maintenance for free. It provides a means for owners to use aftermarket parts fluids etc. for maintenance for your warranty provided they meet mfg requirements, (for example using the correct grade and rating on oil). Note that the act deals with required maintenance for a warranty. It doesn't deal specifically with modifications or the implications on a warranty. While many aftermarket suppliers say it applies to other aftermarket updates, including performance updates that is a pretty grey area when reading the whole MM warranty act, and courts haven't necessarily argreed with this interpretation. Waving the MM act in front of a dealership for warranty work potentially related to performance mod's may not get much sympathy, and if you go to court, may not get much relief either.

On the other hand if a dealer says you didn't have me do your oil change therefore the warranty is void, and you have reciepts showing either you or someone else did oil changes with the specified oil as often as specified, MM will back you 100% and any court case would be pretty clear cut in your favor. Likewise if they try to void your entire warranty for performance mod, not just deny a warranty claim related to a mod. It is also a reason stuff like Dextron VI, Dexcool, etc. are readily available from sources other than GM. If it wasn't for MM you might not be able to get them anyplace but dealership.

bottom line, If Install an edge on level V and toast a tranny, don't expect much sympathy from a dealer to fix the tranny under warranty, nor expect MM to bail you out. If the dealer does fix it, consider yourself lucky to have a good dealer.

I know I'll get flamed for this but here goes.

There is a fair amount of mis information and misunderstanding about MM warranty act on the part of dealers and owners. I make no claims to be an expert on MM, but do have some understanding of it from some coursework. It was enacted decades ago to prevent requirements that the mfg do all required maintenace for your warranty and for what is called "tying". That is requiring you to only buy maint items from the mfg. For example requiring you to buy oil from the dealer and/or have GM do the work. In this case the mfg must do the maintenance for free. It provides a means for owners to use aftermarket parts fluids etc. for maintenance for your warranty provided they meet mfg requirements, (for example using the correct grade and rating on oil). Note that the act deals with required maintenance for a warranty. It doesn't deal specifically with modifications or the implications on a warranty. While many aftermarket suppliers say it applies to other aftermarket updates, including performance updates that is a pretty grey area when reading the whole MM warranty act, and courts haven't necessarily argreed with this interpretation. Waving the MM act in front of a dealership for warranty work potentially related to performance mod's may not get much sympathy, and if you go to court, may not get much relief either.

On the other hand if a dealer says you didn't have me do your oil change therefore the warranty is void, and you have reciepts showing either you or someone else did oil changes with the specified oil as often as specified, MM will back you 100% and any court case would be pretty clear cut in your favor. Likewise if they try to void your entire warranty for performance mod, not just deny a warranty claim related to a mod. It is also a reason stuff like Dextron VI, Dexcool, etc. are readily available from sources other than GM. If it wasn't for MM you might not be able to get them anyplace but dealership.

bottom line, If Install an edge on level V and toast a tranny, don't expect much sympathy from a dealer to fix the tranny under warranty, nor expect MM to bail you out. If the dealer does fix it, consider yourself lucky to have a good dealer.

Well said.

it is tough to deny that dealer's are now on the prowl for any car/truck with a tuner and then immediately trying to fault it to a warranty issue.

Well how about the fact that the dealer will void your warranty if you do not have all the records of service that correspond to the dealer maintenance schedule. I had issues with my 05' 1500 and at that time the dealer played hard ball with me because I did all my own oil changes. They wanted the receipts when I told them I did this service myself. This was all for a clunking in the steering related to the intermediate shaft needing lubed and nothing to do with the engine at all. Yet they made it a point to tell me without the receipts or service records my warranty was void and that they did not need to perform the TSB work. Although I felt this was total BS, it is in the fine print that you must have service records to keep the warranty. I asked about this when they pitched the extended warranty on my new truck during all the paperwork signing. This was a different dealer that also told me to keep the warranty valid that I must have the service records. I am not the type that likes others tinkering on my truck. Especially on basic things like fluid changes. Its like they are forcing you to use a high cost repair center or the dealership to do stuff anyone should be able to do in their driveway. As for the tuners, I was told the LMM's record all the ECU mods.... so reverting back to stock to take it in for service does not work. I was told you must use a second ECU when making changes and put the factory ECU in when you go back to the dealer. Those ECU's are not cheap at all.

ktmrfs gave a fairly good synopsis of the MM interpretations by most courts.

While I would suspect that most people want to believe that MM covers them when they "modify" the vehicle in any fashion, this just isn't the case. The greatest hurdle is getting through the red-tape and layers of BS. Today's manufacturer's warranties are well written and described; after all, they're done by corporate lawyers. MM does NOT cover you when you modify components (engine, ecm, tranny's, oversized wheels/tires, suspension, etc) past the design intent of the manufacturer. They have mountains of engineering data to back up what they do, and why.

Sure, perhaps your tuner didn't cause the wheel bearings to fail, but your over-powering of the drivetrain may have. And it's up to YOU to prove that they didn't.

Here's the key to understanding MM, and while it applies to all products, keep in mind we're talking about vehicles here:

When you use stock components on a stock vehicle with approved fluids following the proper maintenance schedule with proof of said maintenance, then the burden of proof is on the manufacturer.

However, when you MODIFY the vehicle past the design intent of the mannfacturer, any failure of components directly or indirectly related to the modifaction is YOUR responsibility to prove that the changes you made DIDN'T cause the failure.

Tuners, chips, etc CLEARLY overfuel the engine to a point where the design intent is exceeded. All problems associated with said changes are NOT covered under warranty, and MM gives no relief to such changes. It's not up to you to decide what is and isn't covered, it's up the to well written, fully described, lawyer backed, multi-billion dollar companies.

Who do you think is going to win?

yes they can tell...and they can void the warranty..but who cares ..I know I have too much fun playin

Gotto go with this one.

Whats the point in looking after someone else's future purchase? I too am having much fun and really am not worried about the warranty. No, I haven't got too much $$ but only have so much of my life left to enjoy it.

LETS PLAY!!

bottom line, If Install an edge on level V and toast a tranny, don't expect much sympathy from a dealer to fix the tranny under warranty, nor expect MM to bail you out. If the dealer does fix it, consider yourself lucky to have a good dealer.

No flames here, great post. Thanks for the real information.

Face it, if you change your truck and expect the dealer to fix something you broke, you're gambling.

The best attitude I've seen is just mod your truck and enjoy it. If it breaks and you want the dealer to fix it, you're gambling. Some say it's low/no risk gamble, others say high.

I'll keep saying it's a personal decision. I'm glad ktmrfs posted this info so all of the gamblers can be better informed if the warranty claim game begins.

I'm starting to lean towards the mod crowd, with diesel so expensive and the mods for mileage so achievable.

you'll die of old age before you ever resolve the issue as GM screws with you for 20 years.... and in the process you have a truck that doesnt work.

This isn't a problem on this board like it is with the FORD boards. Ford has a much more agressive stances on mods.

You fighting with a big company with lots of **%^ Attorneys with all sorts of time on there hands.

Good luck.

No one has mentioned the consequences of programmers and emissions violations. It is a federal offense to tamper/modify emissions equipment. If the EPA wanted to they could crack down and put large fines on anyone who has modified the performance of their vehicle.

I suspect this may be why some dealers are being a pain with regard to modifications. They don't want to be held liable if the EPA finds out they knew a vehicle was modified and didn't report it.

No one has mentioned the consequences of programmers and emissions violations. It is a federal offense to tamper/modify emissions equipment. If the EPA wanted to they could crack down and put large fines on anyone who has modified the performance of their vehicle.

I suspect this may be why some dealers are being a pain with regard to modifications. They don't want to be held liable if the EPA finds out they knew a vehicle was modified and didn't report it.
That's got a helluva lot to do with it. I'm keeping a watch out to see if any slap down consequences come along for all the guys that are deleting the DPF. EPA Really frowns on that.

Well how about the fact that the dealer will void your warranty if you do not have all the records of service that correspond to the dealer maintenance schedule. I had issues with my 05' 1500 and at that time the dealer played hard ball with me because I did all my own oil changes. They wanted the receipts when I told them I did this service myself. This was all for a clunking in the steering related to the intermediate shaft needing lubed and nothing to do with the engine at all. Yet they made it a point to tell me without the receipts or service records my warranty was void and that they did not need to perform the TSB work. Although I felt this was total BS, it is in the fine print that you must have service records to keep the warranty. I asked about this when they pitched the extended warranty on my new truck during all the paperwork signing. This was a different dealer that also told me to keep the warranty valid that I must have the service records. I am not the type that likes others tinkering on my truck. Especially on basic things like fluid changes. Its like they are forcing you to use a high cost repair center or the dealership to do stuff anyone should be able to do in their driveway. As for the tuners, I was told the LMM's record all the ECU mods.... so reverting back to stock to take it in for service does not work. I was told you must use a second ECU when making changes and put the factory ECU in when you go back to the dealer. Those ECU's are not cheap at all.

Key is to keep reciepts for maintenance even if you do it. For all oil changes etc. I put store reciepts for oil/filter etc. for each service in an envelope and file them away. Mfg car warranties and MM are very specific that you must have proof of service.

This can also be helpful in the case of an accident. I had an older car with a recently rebuilt engine/transmission/new paint rear ended, not major damage but enough to be expensive. Insurance Co. wanted to total it. I said fine, but it has a rebuilt ngine/transmission/paint etc less than 6 months ago lets talk $$. they said we will only if you have reciepts. Once I showed them the stack of reciepts for all the machine work/part etc. They gulped and realized it was going to cost way more than they thought and decided to repair which is what I wanted.

you'll die of old age before you ever resolve the issue as GM screws with you for 20 years.... and in the process you have a truck that doesnt work.

This isn't a problem on this board like it is with the FORD boards. Ford has a much more agressive stances on mods.

You fighting with a big company with lots of **%^ Attorneys with all sorts of time on there hands.

Good luck.


Ya ur probaly right about the whole ford thing....i mean they have to cover their a*** when it come to the powerstrokes because their junk and they cant take as much tinkering as the d-maxes lol:D

yes they can tell...and they can void the warranty..but who cares ..I know I have too much fun playin


I am with him. If you are worried about losing your warranty, then stay stock.

I gotta agree with Meeko on this one also. If you are going to tune it up better have the the ass to cover it up and pay for it. My new 08 has 400 miles on it and Im already bored. Miight have to do a little over time for Uncle sam to pay for toys but I think thats what its all about. If you leave it stock I guess you dont have to worry about the warranty. I think some people just like the "thrill of the Hunt" so to speak with getting away with screwing the General. Dont get me wrong I like free stuff as much as the next guy but take responsiblity,if you add 100 hp might wanna hold off on the new atv and put the money away for a tranny,just my very little 2 cents.

I gotta agree with Meeko on this one also. If you are going to tune it up better have the the ass to cover it up and pay for it. My new 08 has 400 miles on it and Im already bored. Miight have to do a little over time for Uncle sam to pay for toys but I think thats what its all about. If you leave it stock I guess you dont have to worry about the warranty. I think some people just like the "thrill of the Hunt" so to speak with getting away with screwing the General. Dont get me wrong I like free stuff as much as the next guy but take responsiblity,if you add 100 hp might wanna hold off on the new atv and put the money away for a tranny,just my very little 2 cents.
:agreed:

In my 02, the bottom line is very, very few have the resources, ie. legal fees, to fight the Corporate attorneys. And that is where you will be headed if you try and fight the voided warranty claims. Not only that, but the time frame in which your truck will be tied up will be ridiculous.


Sam

I've been in the GM business for 45 years now and thought I might make a few comments about the dealer's point of view.

The first point is that it is much easier for the dealer to give the customer what he wants. When we have to tell you that it isn't covered, most times it is an unpleasant situation and probably means that you've lost a customer. I can guarantee that GM doesn't come around telling us to deny warranty to save money. What does happen is that we have to retain the takeoff parts for 30 days after we've been paid by GM for their inspection. Each dealer is compared to the average of all dealers in the area as to warranty expense per warranty repair order. When the dealer's average gets out of line, GM or Ford or Chrysler is going to look at the repairs closer and to inspect the parts that were replaced. Believe me, they know what they're doing when the parts are inspected and, if they find discrepancies, they're going to dig deeper!

I have never felt that GM is unreasonable in their audits, but if things are not right, the dealer gets a chargeback and there's no way he can get reimbursed by you at that point.

One problem with the system is that a dealer that does diesel work will tend to have higher warranty expense due to the higher cost of the repairs. If he's surrounded by dealer that don't do diesel work, he faces a higher average cost than those who don't. I've never seen GM take advantage of this situation, but it might explain why the dealer might not like to handle warranty work on units that he didn't sell. I'd try to determine whether the dealer you're buying from has a viable diesel repair operation or whether he trys to pass off his diesel warranty work to another dealer.

A customer that threatens a dealer or is unreasonable can create a bad situation. Dealers are graded on customer satisfaction and if it looks like someone is going to create a problem, he might take a second look.

Most dealer want to do service work and they want to do it right the first time. While I'm sure that there are bad apples among us, most dealers will try to help if they can.

I've been in the GM business for 45 years now and thought I might make a few comments about the dealer's point of view.

The first point is that it is much easier for the dealer to give the customer what he wants. When we have to tell you that it isn't covered, most times it is an unpleasant situation and probably means that you've lost a customer. I can guarantee that GM doesn't come around telling us to deny warranty to save money. What does happen is that we have to retain the takeoff parts for 30 days after we've been paid by GM for their inspection. Each dealer is compared to the average of all dealers in the area as to warranty expense per warranty repair order. When the dealer's average gets out of line, GM or Ford or Chrysler is going to look at the repairs closer and to inspect the parts that were replaced. Believe me, they know what they're doing when the parts are inspected and, if they find discrepancies, they're going to dig deeper!

I have never felt that GM is unreasonable in their audits, but if things are not right, the dealer gets a chargeback and there's no way he can get reimbursed by you at that point.

One problem with the system is that a dealer that does diesel work will tend to have higher warranty expense due to the higher cost of the repairs. If he's surrounded by dealer that don't do diesel work, he faces a higher average cost than those who don't. I've never seen GM take advantage of this situation, but it might explain why the dealer might not like to handle warranty work on units that he didn't sell. I'd try to determine whether the dealer you're buying from has a viable diesel repair operation or whether he trys to pass off his diesel warranty work to another dealer.

A customer that threatens a dealer or is unreasonable can create a bad situation. Dealers are graded on customer satisfaction and if it looks like someone is going to create a problem, he might take a second look.

Most dealer want to do service work and they want to do it right the first time. While I'm sure that there are bad apples among us, most dealers will try to help if they can.

Thank you for being the voice of reason and posting in. :thumb:

Jason, you took the words right outa my mouth. I appreciate Six Dollars chiming in with that.

Another point that might have been made but didn't come off clearly is as follows.

The MM was created so we could change our own oil, etc with out refussal of warranty. Bottom line it was there to protect us. Modding trucks is "hurting GM" and their dealers through excessive and in valid warranty claims. Therefore MM wouldn't be enforced since it would hurt the dealers. Sometimes ya just have to have a little common sense. Screw with it and it is yours. Wanta play, gotta pay so best not over complicate the obvious.

My dealer installed an edge w attitude,took out the cat. converter on my old 05 LLY (it still was a pile). After I got my new LMM I talked to them about doing the same they said better wait and see how the new ones handle upgrades. That was a few months ago havent been in in a while. Point is its all about your relationship with your dealer.

Shit....You can barely get a dealer to fix a completely stock, manufacture error under warranty anymore. And if they do decide to take care of it, good luck on getting the original problem figured out in one trip to the dealer.

Shit....You can barely get a dealer to fix a completely stock, manufacture error under warranty anymore. And if they do decide to take care of it, good luck on getting the original problem figured out in one trip to the dealer.
Thanks for your post, I wondered why it had been slow at work now I know why.

My dealer installed an edge w attitude,took out the cat. converter on my old 05 LLY (it still was a pile). After I got my new LMM I talked to them about doing the same they said better wait and see how the new ones handle upgrades. That was a few months ago havent been in in a while. Point is its all about your relationship with your dealer.
Dealers can get in to deep SH*T for removing the DPF. Just FYI

Thanks for your post, I wondered why it had been slow at work now I know why.
Not sure where you work but if you check the 2 dealers here, you will soon agree, FYI!


give me a break..............



Oh yea, not to mention the nice dent I received from a LOaF Tech.....

However, when you MODIFY the vehicle past the design intent of the mannfacturer, any failure of components directly or indirectly related to the modifaction is YOUR responsibility to prove that the changes you made DIDN'T cause the failure.

Tuners, chips, etc CLEARLY overfuel the engine to a point where the design intent is exceeded. All problems associated with said changes are NOT covered under warranty, and MM gives no relief to such changes. It's not up to you to decide what is and isn't covered, it's up the to well written, fully described, lawyer backed, multi-billion dollar companies.

Who do you think is going to win?


Excellent point. And one the dealer / MFG can use to deny warranty on about any part of the truck, except maybe rust! So having a good dealer relationship important!

People also have to understand that used car salesmen, insurance salesmen, con artists and even aftermarket performance companies all tell people what they want to hear to make a buck. The exact facts may blurr a bit or they may out and out lie to your face. We as consumers have to be on our guard when they are shoveling it on high and deep!

I recall years ago Kennedy was telling people that the Juice would toast the Allison and he got slammed because everyone had been told that the Edge box defueled on shifts and monitored slip so it couldn't hurt the trans. Why is it we believe the good but not the bad?

Cause its what people want to hear.....

My dealer installed an edge w attitude,took out the cat. converter on my old 05 LLY (it still was a pile). After I got my new LMM I talked to them about doing the same they said better wait and see how the new ones handle upgrades. That was a few months ago havent been in in a while. Point is its all about your relationship with your dealer.

I have posted this over and over. If there are any grey areas at all, this is what its all about when it comes to getting your vehicle fixed under warranty

Dealers can get in to deep SH*T for removing the DPF. Just FYI



It wasnt a DPF just cat converter prob. same diff. Havent asked about removing the DPF like you said I think it will be a tuff sell.

It wasnt a DPF just cat converter prob. same diff. Havent asked about removing the DPF like you said I think it will be a tuff sell.
Where in WY is Story. I am in wy. Big city in the south east. HaHa big city.

I really think what the OP was getting at is the wholesale denial of warranty because of the exsistance of a mod, be it a tuner or anything else. Just because you have a tuner does not mean that GM can deny a warranty item. That is in there own words. GM says in there own warranty manual it may deny a warranty item though. There has to be some cause and effect for them to deny the warranty.

Though unlike gas engine tuners can really be said to be power addres on our diesel trucks. And while the engine in most cases can handle 300 extra HP the tranny can't. There is just not much headroom any longer with our tranny.

In the end we need to use a little common sense. If we are going to play sometimes we have to pay. Why would anyone who has already burned up on tranny want another stock tranny? We are really lucky that with just a push of a button we can the kinda of power that in a gas engine would cost thousands of dollars.

ktmrfs gave a fairly good synopsis of the MM interpretations by most courts.

While I would suspect that most people want to believe that MM covers them when they "modify" the vehicle in any fashion, this just isn't the case. The greatest hurdle is getting through the red-tape and layers of BS. Today's manufacturer's warranties are well written and described; after all, they're done by corporate lawyers. MM does NOT cover you when you modify components (engine, ecm, tranny's, oversized wheels/tires, suspension, etc) past the design intent of the manufacturer. They have mountains of engineering data to back up what they do, and why.

Sure, perhaps your tuner didn't cause the wheel bearings to fail, but your over-powering of the drivetrain may have. And it's up to YOU to prove that they didn't.

Here's the key to understanding MM, and while it applies to all products, keep in mind we're talking about vehicles here:

When you use stock components on a stock vehicle with approved fluids following the proper maintenance schedule with proof of said maintenance, then the burden of proof is on the manufacturer.

However, when you MODIFY the vehicle past the design intent of the mannfacturer, any failure of components directly or indirectly related to the modifaction is YOUR responsibility to prove that the changes you made DIDN'T cause the failure.

Tuners, chips, etc CLEARLY overfuel the engine to a point where the design intent is exceeded. All problems associated with said changes are NOT covered under warranty, and MM gives no relief to such changes. It's not up to you to decide what is and isn't covered, it's up the to well written, fully described, lawyer backed, multi-billion dollar companies.

Who do you think is going to win?


well said

Well said.

Yep, good read.