I have noticed a few posts here warning about fuel additives so I thought I would tell you all a story about a customers DMax that I am working on.


I work for GM and have been working on a customers truck this last week. He had added a bottle of additive to try to correct for a hard start problem that has been occuring since almost new. He was on a trip last weekend and had a no-start problem aways away from home so he took it to the nearest dealer. They tested his fuel and found alchohol in it.


That dealer then contacted GM Tech Line for further addvise and once they were told about the alchohol they voided the guys warranty. Right then and there via phone!


Well, the guy had his truck towed back to us and we had one hell of a time getting GM to lift the void on his warranty. The only reason it did get lifted is because the service manager assured the regional advisor that this problem had been pre existing long before the customer used the additive.


So just a heads up on the additives. Dealers do have the equipment to test for impurities in the fuel, and they will test for it. If impurities are found, there is a very good chance that it will void your warranty.


Don't let a $4 bottle of additive void the warranty on your $40,000 truck!

i wonder what he used.. i know primrose has no alcohol in it..

howes is what I use in my big truck and my 2003 duramax.


http://www.howeslube.com/products/index.php/category/10Edited by: mpl897

What can the test for??? I bet it's easy to test for alcohol but I'm not sure they can easily test for other additives, at least at the dealer level.


There are places that actually sell Premium Diesel with additives in it. You mean GM would void my warranty if I bought Premium Diesel at a station that had it already mixed??


I'm betting this guy went in and admitted to adding something too. Then the dealer looked for an out and blamed the additive.

WHERE do they test the fuel? Out of the tank? After the OEM filter?

WHERE do they test the fuel? Out of the tank? After the OEM filter?





Why would that matter. They are testing for additives not purity.

Problem is, some guys like to pick up a bottle of PowerService 911 or FPPF Melt Down and use that! Regular use of a quality additive should NOT affect the warranty. If this were the case, everyone across the upper Midwest would have no warranty as MOST diesel fuel when winterized gets some form (no alcohol) of additive...





Additionally, I'd be skeptical of the dealer having the ability to test diesel fuel for alcohol. Most can't even retain the magnet in the Allison spin on!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


Sounds more like the dealer did not want to work on the diesel...

howes is what I use in my big truck and my 2003 duramax.


http://www.howeslube.com/products/index.php/category/10








This is the same stuff JEBAR was using when I pulled his EXTREMELY rusty OE filter off with 12k miles...

When the service writer asked ever use additives ?? What's an additives would be my response ....?? Volunteering info is NEVER a good idea ...
When dealing with Unknown Service people give specific info on problem allow them to get to a conclusion .... If they fail, get closer to the actual person performing repairs, offer only mer suggestions of resolve that your aware of....
The more corporative you are, the reciprocation will be there I have found ...
Again volunteering info on questionable things is never good ... Play dumb, sometimes it pays off ... So many people get themselves into trouble by speaking first in these incidents ....

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Problem is, some guys like to pick up a bottle of PowerService 911 or FPPF Melt Down and use that! Regular use of a quality additive should NOT affect the warranty. If this were the case, everyone across the upper Midwest would have no warranty as MOST diesel fuel when winterized gets some form (no alcohol) of additive...


How right you are! Use the right product, don't experiment mixing different concoctions and use the specified quantity.


Too often you read posts where certain people are trying crazy things.


Many times the car/truck manufactures realize that some times the do-it-yourselfer gets carried away, so they play it safe and say nothing is recommended or make it that the do-it-yourselfer cannot not do it. Example lubed for life differentials and front end parts.


I guess the best thing to do if you want to do it yourself is be knowledgeable. Tips from certain regulars on this forum like John K, Mac, George and some others help a lot to making an informed choicehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif. Thanks guys.

.... If they fail, get closer to the actual person performing repairs, offer only mer suggestions of resolve that your aware of....
The more corporative you are, the reciprocation will be there I have found ...
....

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif








Social engineering ?? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Is the regular PowerService additive ok for the max's? I just started using the PS additive yesterday, I've only run it in one tank and I've mixed it to specs on the bottle, should I stop and use something else?

kennedy,


I will have to keep an eye out for the filter rust, will change b4 10k though. maybe he runs lousy fuel,my fuel comes from truck stops and is more apt to be fresh (imho).http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Edited by: mpl897

1fatcat,


Your post caused a lot of comment. Thanks for offering it. You're on the line and it did indeed happen to your client.


Bob

1fatcat,

Thanks for the Heads-up........Paulhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

What can the test for??? I bet it's easy to test for alcohol but I'm not sure they can easily test for other additives, at least at the dealer level.


There are places that actually sell Premium Diesel with additives in it. You mean GM would void my warranty if I bought Premium Diesel at a station that had it already mixed??


I'm betting this guy went in and admitted to adding something too. Then the dealer looked for an out and blamed the additive.








I should have been more specific with this, sorry. Dealers have the ability to test for alchohol and water on location, not other additives. It is infact the alchohol that GM does not want to find in the diesel fuel, as they state that alchohol is naturally corrosive to metal fuel system components, rubber and plastic hoses and rubber seals.


They don't want to find water either, but I doubt they would void the warranty if they did. It is the water seperators job to take care of water in the system, so GM knows that this will happen and they are not concerned with it from a warranty view point.


I never asked the customer if he addmited to the other dealer about the additive, or if they found it from testing? But it does seem most plausable that he addmitted to adding it and they then used it as an excuse not to work on his truck.


But however it happened is not realy the main point here. The main point is that GM will not loose any sleep at night if they want to void your warranty because of alchohol in the fuel. They will void your warranty within minutes and without a "second chance"


This customer was lucky enough to get a second chance and his warranty reinstated because we faught for him. Other dealerships may not have been so willing to help him.


I do not know what additive brand he had used.

1fatcat...what dealer are you with? I've not had any problems with my DMAX yet, but would sure like to know of a good dealer such as yours if I do have any issues.

Saxon Motors in Elk River, Mn.

So,1Fatcat,


What additive would you suggest using?


I am still trying to figure this all out.http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


And it is getting cold around here now.

I would like to know how ANY dealer out there can detect alcohol in the fuel.. I deal with all of the special tools and test equipment at out dealer and I have never found any thing that will test for alcohol in fuel. I would also like to know how Tech Assist has any power at all to void a warrenty... They have no power what so ever! Ever tried to get your GM rep to pay you more diagnostic time on a test that " tech assist told me to do it" ??? Its not gonna happen. They only thing they can do is make recommendations, Your rep or similer is the only person who can void or block warrenty. Its good to see 1FATCATS dealer was able to assist this guy out of a situation he should have never been in in the first place...Guys, remember also that additive is used as preventive maint, not a snake oil...

I'm so doggone confused! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif I read one thing and feel okay, I read another and start to worry! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Please help!


I just started using primrose 405...Am I gonna get screwed if I need fuel system work, or am I gonna be okay? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif The fine folks at AV Lube assured me there is no alcohol in the primrose products. But what about the emulsifier Vs. demulsifier question? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif What warranty concerns should I have using the 405?????????????????????http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifKevinhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif





P.S. Did I mention I'm http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif !





I have to add that my truck is running better on this, the first tank of fuel with the Primrose 405 in it, than it has since it was new. I don't doubt anything George has told me regarding his products, and I in no way want to offend anyone. I just want to get a definitive answer. Thanks.Edited by: Fireman

Just read Eric's post...starting to feel better again...


Still a little http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif though!





Kevin

I would like to know how ANY dealer out there can detect alcohol in the fuel.. I deal with all of the special tools and test equipment at out dealer and I have never found any thing that will test for alcohol in fuel.
It’s called an alcohol tester…..it is not an essential tool, but most techs own there own. They aren’t that expensive when your talking about tools.

I would also like to know how Tech Assist has any power at all to void a warrenty... They have no power what so ever! Ever tried to get your GM rep to pay you more diagnostic time on a test that " tech assist told me to do it" ??? Its not gonna happen. <BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

The Tech Line / Tech assist should only be used when a technician has expensed EVERY RESORCE available to him. Tech assist is only going to hold your hand and walk you through every single step that you already should have done yourself….Including TSB research, Tech Link information, and recalls.

Tech assist doesn’t have the power to void a warranty, but they do have the power to pick up a telephone, push some numbers, and tell a story.

GM does the rest.

I wanna know who sells them and where to get them.. Dont care about cost.....(alcohol tester)


Sad part about tech assist is 90% of the operators are no smarter then the computer in front of them.. once and a while you get somebody decent, but usually not the case... I can tell stories too

I wanna know who sells them and where to get them.. Dont care about cost.....(alcohol tester)


Sad part about tech assist is 90% of the operators are no smarter then the computer in front of them.. once and a while you get somebody decent, but usually not the case... I can tell stories too








PUT ME DOWN FOR A JUICE DETECTOR AS WELL .http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif





Thttp://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifNY

Can the juice be detected if the box is removed prior to taking the truck to the dealer? Does it leave a "footprint" once having been installed?





Kevinhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

GM is WELL aware of the aftermarket mods that are avail on these trucks. They are somewhat behind the times. They think they have one over on us becuase what they are doing is checking the fuel pressure relief valve for tampering. Apperently some have put shims in them to allow higher fuel pressure before they unseat which the pressure type boxes need. The Programmer style boxes are the best as far as tamper hiding goes, they cant see that the wire connectors have been tampered withhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif You should see the emails I read from our ASM on what to look out for! I just tell him,," Huh, that interesting, I will keep an eye out for that kind of stuff" http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Kevin, the only footprint you will leave is the visual signs that the harness has been apart, like the wire loom not hooked into the clip or something like that. Of course, now with the attitude... that leaves the pyro probe....all depends on the dealer

...You should see the emails I read from our ASM on what to look out for


Eric,


Just curious... Anything about oil bypass filters, fuel filters and/or lift pumps in those emails?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

No, nothing on that type of stuff, they are more worried about these 'plug in devices that add power' They refer to website that show our trucks beating vettes in the 1/4 mile... One of the emails mentioned specifically Edge products and ATS diesel. Didnt say anything about them, only they they manufactured and sold performance parts. The emails were between area service managers and were in no way directed to the dealers. I have talked to field engineers regarding added filtration, lift pumps and the like and they all hold GM's position on them... even if they do like the idea, they wont admit to it and they all hold fast on the idea that the oem filter is sufficent. Now this represents only a handfull of them so I dont know how many of them feel the same way. I know some GM people have contacted filter suppliers for adding a secondary setup to trucks.... Dunno where that will go yet.


Can you image what would happen if our ASM walked back to the parts dept and seen boxes labeled " Edge Performance Module/ Attitude" ?? LOL Shhhhhhhhh!!!

I wanna know who sells them and where to get them.. Dont care about cost.....(alcohol tester)


Sad part about tech assist is 90% of the operators are no smarter then the computer in front of them.. once and a while you get somebody decent, but usually not the case... I can tell stories too








http://flightgadgets.com/asashfute.html


^^^^^^ That is a site that sells them, but I have never seen, heard of, or used there product. It was just a site I found with a quick search on the net. Weather or not the tool trucks sell them, I don't know, never asked.


The tester I own is actually a Briggs &amp; Straton tool. It cost about $7 and was purchased from a local small engine repair shop.


All it is is a glass cylinder with some numbers and lines on the outside of it. You pour in a certain amount of water, then a certain amount of the fuel sample, then cap it, shake it, wait a few seconds for seperation, and the seperation line tells you the % of alcohol in the fuel.


As you know, alcohol absorbs water, so the difference in seperated water/fuel before the test....and the difference after the test.........tells you how much alcohol is present in the fuel.


Gasoline is about 8-10%, that is considered normal. I've seen cars come in with almost 50% alcohol in the fuel! People who don't know any better fill their tanks with E85 when their car is not desighned or capable of running it.





EDIT.....I would recommend that if you want to buy one, look into the Briggs &amp; Straton tool that I own. The only reason I say this is because I have personaly used it and I know that it does work perfectly. It is also very easy to use.


Plus, the link I posted above seems to be for an airplane fuel tester. I'm not certain that it would work with automotive fuels?Edited by: 1fatcat

Is it possible that some stations add alcohol to their fuel? I was running Chevron for a while and noticed how much louder the engine was. I also noticed an odor from the exhaust that resembled an engine running with alcohol. I live out here in Southern California. There is no telling what kind of crap is spewing out of the pumps in an effort to please the environmentalists. Some pumps indicate that the fuel may contain alcohol, but I thought it refereed to gasoline. These are pumps with two nozzels. One for gas, and one for Diesel.

Is it possible that some stations add alcohol to their fuel? I was running Chevron for a while and noticed how much louder the engine was. I also noticed an odor from the exhaust that resembled an engine running with alcohol. I live out here in Southern California. There is no telling what kind of crap is spewing out of the pumps in an effort to please the environmentalists. Some pumps indicate that the fuel may contain alcohol, but I thought it refereed to gasoline. These are pumps with two nozzels. One for gas, and one for Diesel.

Cat, thanks for the link, I will check in to trying to locate one of these. I had no idea it worked so simple.

As you know, alcohol absorbs water, so the difference in seperated water/fuel before the test....and the difference after the test.........tells you how much alcohol is present in the fuel.





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Based on your description wouldn't any a product that absorbs water look like alcohol? I think it would be a pretty good check for additivies in general but not just good for alcohol.


The way I got it figured here is what happened. He brought his truck in and the tech asked if he ran any additives. He answers sure there is a bottle of it behind the seat there. The tech looks at it and sees contains alcohol right on the label. If he didn't read the labe or use some kind of test strip I don't see how you would know.


Edited by: Cruz_Man

The tester I own is actually a Briggs & Straton tool. It cost about $7 and was purchased from a local small engine repair shop.


All it is is a glass cylinder with some numbers and lines on the outside of it. You pour in a certain amount of water, then a certain amount of the fuel sample, then cap it, shake it, wait a few seconds for seperation, and the seperation line tells you the % of alcohol in the fuel.


As you know, alcohol absorbs water, so the difference in seperated water/fuel before the test....and the difference after the test.........tells you how much alcohol is present in the fuel.


Gasoline is about 8-10%, that is considered normal. I've seen cars come in with almost 50% alcohol in the fuel! People who don't know any better fill their tanks with E85 when their car is not desighned or capable of running it.




Just curious ... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif
Since Diesel fuel is hydrophobic - absorbs water - is this method valid for diesel? Seems like the amount of alcohol that may be added to diesel fuel is small relative to the amount that may be found in gasoline...

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Based on your description wouldn't any a product that absorbs water look like alcohol? I think it would be a pretty good check for additivies in general but not just good for alcohol.


Alcohol is the only chemical that I know of that absorbs water. The product name doesn't mean anything, its the chemical in the product that means something.

Just curious ... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif
Since Diesel fuel is hydrophobic - absorbs water - is this method valid for diesel?


Diesel fuel does not absorb water.

Ok so what would diesel fuel with an emulsifier do in the test tube? I thought it would absorb the water (break it up is very small particles and encapsulate it).

It basicaly turns into a foam imediatly after you shake it up, then within a minute or two it starts to seperate again with a few encapsuled water particles lingering around.

jbplock:


I think the word you were looking for is hygroscopic which means it absorbs water. Diesel is hydrophobic in that it lacks an affinity for water. Sorry for the English lesson.

jbplock:


I think the word you were looking for is hygroscopic which means it absorbs water. Diesel is hydrophobic in that it lacks an affinity for water. Sorry for the English lesson.

Kartattack,
Thanks for the clarification! I got my "big words" mixed up. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif
I guess I can't properly explain the chemistry but I'm fairly certain that diesel fuel inherently contains water. It can be in the form of free water or emulsified water. So, I'm just curious if this "feature" of diesel fuel would skew the results of the test described above - even without any alcohols.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Alcohol is the only chemical that I know of that absorbs water. The product name doesn't mean anything, its the chemical in the product that means something.


Diesel fuel does not absorb water





Sorry to take this even further off topic but here goes.


I can think of several dozen chemicals other than alcohol that absorb water.


Diesel fuel can under some conditions absorb water. Depends on how you define your control volume and what specifically you consider as water. I once participated in the design of a soil bioremediation facility to treat soil contaminated with jp-8 &amp; diesel. The process relied heavily on the interaction of the fuels with water acting as the carrier for the bugs which digested the fuel.Edited by: lvcatfish

FPPF Total Power appears to be free of alcohols, they claim no "harmful alcohols", and their MSDS (link below) appears to reflect that, so for an emulsifier it looks ok


http://www.fppf.com/msds/msds_TotalP.pdf