What lift pump would you guys recommend for a high horsepower Dmax? I don't want any problems with bursting and fuel starvation on the dragstrip. Thanks. Nick

I'm running a $75 Carter 7psi/100GPH pump from Jegs/Summit.

Wow! Just $75? You wouldn't have the part number handy would ya?

get on jegs website and do a search, shouldn't be hard.

Mike, why didn't you go for the 16PSI version of the same model?

How long has/does the Carter pump last? If it only last a couple of months whats one that will last longer?

I'm running dual FM100's in paralell. 150$ or so a pop but they have additional filtration built in. duno if just 1 would work or not? I did also spend over 100$ in AN fittings and such for my install but you could do it for less if you are on the cheap. They are made to be continuos duty liftpumps in a diesel application. You can also add a heater. Dont know how long they will live in reality though? Also have a strong beliefe that the filters are made by caterpillar

I believe TTS is working on a trick set up also but duno when it will get done or if it is yet.

Holley RED.................Works for me..........

E-Bay.............$30.00...........I had a connection for brass fittings.........Mackin and I run the Holley Red and the Xtreme without any issues.........

T:cool: NY

Ebay huh? Gonna check that out right now. For $30.00 I'll buy it right away through Paypal. Thanks

ebay.....my second home

Crap. Theres nothing there. Oh well.

Wix makes Cat's filters...T

By the way, GMCSLEHD is building SUPER DIESEL on demand high performance pumps like I run on my truck. It is a twin pump set up that flows big time at higher boost pressures (both pumps in unison), and less, via small pump, at lower boost pressures for quiet running. They FREE FLOW as well if it quits. They are built to order.

Carter electric fuel pump

Jegs part #180-P4600HP - $82
Summit part# CRT-P4600HP - $82

* Standard Pressure with 3/8'' NPT Inlet and Outlet
* 6-8 psi output
* No Regulator Required
* 100 gph Free Flow

They went up in price a few dollars since I last bought one.

I've had mine on the truck since last spring and it's still going but Eric had one on his truck that lasted about a year and a half.

I didn't go with the 15 psi pump because it's still 100 GPH and the 7psi pump never drops below 3psi with everything on kill.

Wix makes Cat's filters...T
I believe CAT makes CAT's filters. All inhouse I believe

Thanks mtomac.

I believe CAT makes CAT's filters. All inhouse I believe

yeah, what ratlover said!! :ro)

I have a Carter P4389 in the shop that I will probably never use if anyone is interested. New in the Box. It is built the same as the ones mentioned here with the same connections and mounting. Purchased 2 because of the deal I made. Only diff is the GPH and PSI rating. They can also be found by doing a basic search.
Back to topic: I've been using one of these to transfer fuel from my aux tank to my main tank for about 2 years with no problems.

Diesel Rated
72 GPH
5-7 PSI
No regulator needed

I have a question about these pumps(hopefully not a dumb one!).....it says 100 gph free flow, does that mean that if the pump dies or is turned off the engine will continue to run by means of the OEM pump?

I have a Carter in my hand right now, and if you try to blow through it, it has a lot of resistance. My guess is the truck will run, but not very fast. When I install, I will test it in the off position.

Free Flow is what a pump will flow with no restriction. So with the pump working with not having to build any pressure it will flow 100gph.

I would like to know the outcome! Are you installing it today?

I seem to recall someone's Carter lift pump failing on or around Xmas eve, and he was NOT able to drive the truck till it was bypassed...

I have a question about these pumps(hopefully not a dumb one!).....it says 100 gph free flow, does that mean that if the pump dies or is turned off the engine will continue to run by means of the OEM pump?
They will not free flow when the pump is not running. Thats why I prefer not to use it as a lift pump. I had used one for a while and then removed it shortly there after. I now use it for a transfer pump. I would not run one without a bypass. There are much better solutions out there.

I would like to know the outcome! Are you installing it today?

Naw, I'm supposed to be working. ;)

I need some additional parts that are arriving next week.

My only goal with a lift pump is to stop the P1093's from occurring. They do not happen frequently, but the happen enough to piss me off.

Been working on this for a long time now, and things are finally coming together. The control ckt has passed initial testing on Brandon's monster pump with flying colors, and should be in production in February.

The pump is getting there. Here's a quick peak:

Free Flow is what a pump will flow with no restriction. So with the pump working with not having to build any pressure it will flow 100gph.
Exactly! That free flow statement screwed me up when I purchased the pumps.

John
What's the gph and psi rating on that pump?

By the way, GMCSLEHD is building SUPER DIESEL on demand high performance pumps like I run on my truck. It is a twin pump set up that flows big time at higher boost pressures (both pumps in unison), and less, via small pump, at lower boost pressures for quiet running. They FREE FLOW as well if it quits. They are built to order.

SD;

do you have a pic of the version (or yours) that GMCSLEHD is developing? When is he gonna have 'em available? Cost?

Deadeye,

They're available on a built as ordered basis, probably 14 days lead time on an order. I just got started on this and will post a pic when I get one completed next week (if you PM me your email addy, I can send you pic of one on SD's truck). They cost $450 + shipping (PayPal fees also apply if used). Feel free to PM me with questions.:D

Also, to take advantage of the boost activated feature, you will need to be running one of SD's manifolds.

Josh

I am running SD's lift pump setup and it is great. I talked to him about it extensively before purchasing one and the deciding factor was that with the pump shut off it still starts and runs like stock caus eI tried it for a whole day to be sure. The small pump can't be heard with the eng running but the big Carter pump will let you it is running. The added filtration is nice also. Definately gets a great review from me , if that counts for anything :)

Here what it looks like.

Glad it is in and working good Bowtie Boy. It counts to me. I don't want to put out something we need that is hoky, or disapointing.

Actually rated in GPM. It will free flow out to 5+GPM based on 1/2" pipe. Pressure is minimal at about 6psi on an idling Dmax. Add a second unit inline and it will double the psi. It will attach directly to either (or both) the inlet or outlet of the next gen "universal" Mega head so there will only be 2 hose clamp filttings, no bypass etc. The key is VOLUME, free flow if shut down, reliability, near silent operation, and easy, simple one direction fuel flow...




John
What's the gph and psi rating on that pump?

John.........will this "next generation" mega filter still be located
under the air box........or do you have another location in mind?

I've been running the 6.5 replacement pump from NAPA....... but they don't seem to be holding up too well.

Think I'm gonna be needing a lift pump before summer...........

Looks like a great kit! I am still a little confused, which pump allows fuel to flow through it when it is turned off? I thought I read that both the Carter and AC Delco EP 309 pumps did not allow fuel through when not operating.

Thanks

I can promise you that the Carter wont allow flow, the ac/delco in my experience will flow, but not freely

Then SD's setup must be running something other than an AC/Delco as the primary pump. Any idea what it may be? Or does the OEM pump have enough suction to pull fuel when the additional pump is turned off?

Thanks again!

I believe CAT makes CAT's filters. All inhouse I believe

Cat makes equipment - bulldozers, excavators, etc. not filters, to my knowledge. The last I knew WIX does make CAT's filters for CAT as well as a slew of other OE mfg's.

John.........will this "next generation" mega filter still be located
under the air box........or do you have another location in mind?

I've been running the 6.5 replacement pump from NAPA....... but they don't seem to be holding up too well.

Think I'm gonna be needing a lift pump before summer...........
Universal mount. I still prefer the original Mega kit and stuff, but there is a need to have something for the other vehicles as well. Pump(s) can be used alone, or with filter head and can be mounted (without filter) in the hose between the tank sender and the first steel fuel line in the system. while still keeping the fuel flowing in one general direction.

Also can be mounted inside the driver's frame rail.

Been working on this for a long time now, and things are finally coming together. The control ckt has passed initial testing on Brandon's monster pump with flying colors, and should be in production in February.

The pump is getting there. Here's a quick peak:Been running this centrifugal pump for about 23K miles. It's nothing short af awesome. I have run the Carter and AC Delco pumps and this one is by far the best I've seen so far. There is simply no comparrison. So quiet you will not even hear it with the engine shut off. The impeller is rotated by a magnetic field created by the windings that are completely isolated from the fluid section. There is no shaft or seals to wear out. There is no need for a bypass as this pump will free flow while not running way more than the stock fuel lines are capable of flowing. It doesn't care if you are idling are running strong. And the real plus is that it should out last your truck.

Been running this centrifugal pump for about 23K miles. It's nothing short af awesome. I have run the Carter and AC Delco pumps and this one is by far the best I've seen so far. There is simply no comparrison. So quiet you will not even hear it with the engine shut off. The impeller is rotated by a magnetic field created by the windings that are completely isolated from the fluid section. There is no shaft or seals to wear out. There is no need for a bypass as this pump will free flow while not running way more than the stock fuel lines are capable of flowing. It doesn't care if you are idling are running strong. And the real plus is that it should out last your truck. And as a bonus you will gain at least 20hp due to the fact that the fuel is being sent through a magnetic field.
Will make you feel better, too.:joke::joke:

See how it works:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/trader/Graphics/Fuel_Saver_fixed.jpg

From here: http://www3.sympatico.ca/trader/fuel_saver.html
Note the flow direction. Always make sure the yellow points towards the engine !!

On a side note: It will stack with any !!!! box/programmer. :lol:

Been running this centrifugal pump for about 23K miles. It's nothing short af awesome. I have run the Carter and AC Delco pumps and this one is by far the best I've seen so far. There is simply no comparrison. So quiet you will not even hear it with the engine shut off. The impeller is rotated by a magnetic field created by the windings that are completely isolated from the fluid section. There is no shaft or seals to wear out. There is no need for a bypass as this pump will free flow while not running way more than the stock fuel lines are capable of flowing. It doesn't care if you are idling are running strong. And the real plus is that it should out last your truck.A Bear, do you have any pictures of this pump? Model number, where to get one, price, etc? Sounds interesting.

Thanks

Sorry, The picture didn't transfer when I posted the quote. It's the same one John Kennedy has pictured in post #27 of this thread.

Been working on this for a long time now, and things are finally coming together. The control ckt has passed initial testing on Brandon's monster pump with flying colors, and should be in production in February.

The pump is getting there. Here's a quick peak:JK, where can I get one of these pumps in the next week or so? My tank is enroute and I would like to get everything to install it by next week!

Thanks

Pumps will probably be late Feb the way things look right now..

I can promise you that the Carter wont allow flow, the ac/delco in my experience will flow, but not freely
I've never had a problem running a Hot Juice with the a/c delco pump turned off.


Actually rated in GPM. It will free flow out to 5+GPM based on 1/2" pipe. Pressure is minimal at about 6psi on an idling Dmax. Add a second unit inline and it will double the psi. It will attach directly to either (or both) the inlet or outlet of the next gen "universal" Mega head so there will only be 2 hose clamp filttings, no bypass etc. The key is VOLUME, free flow if shut down, reliability, near silent operation, and easy, simple one direction fuel flow...
I'll let you know what the flow is after I set a couple up on my test stand. I also plan on adding some back pressure to see how fast the flow drops offs.

Will the pumps be sold as a package with filtration or will they be available as a stand alone product?
I am very interested, please sign me up for one! ):h



Pumps will probably be late Feb the way things look right now..

The one I use is simalar to the AC/Delco 309. It has a very low crack open pressure like a soft check valve. The carter dosn't flow unless the engine is making 15 psi of boost or more. No massive fuel return from an agressive pump when not needed. The point is, it wont strand you if the small one fails. I have driven around on it with the pumps off in the TTS120 mode (BY ACCIDENT). It ran fine. GMCSLEHD has a pressure gauge set up with the same system on. He can tell you more about the pressure readings while running. I found it maintained line pressure and rail pressure. Good enough for me.

On SD's pump, I'm pushing fuel through three filters (30 micron,OEM,2Micron) and see 3psi at idle and 2psi at 75mph on the "309" pump. Under aggressive throttle (18+ pounds of boost) on the Extreme program, when the Carter kicks in, I still see 3+- psi after the third filter.

Josh

Will the pumps be sold as a package with filtration or will they be available as a stand alone product?
I am very interested, please sign me up for one! ):h

Set up as a modular system. Pump(s) alone, pump9s)/filter, control alone etc

Pump control is in final stages of testing:

Set up as a modular system. Pump(s) alone, pump9s)/filter, control alone etc

Pump control is in final stages of testing:
Can the pump be controled by a relay, so that I can use a switch in my overhead trippin mount?:)

Yes, if you want to use a bulky relay that is fine, but this is set up to be automatic. You could also switch the pink/black wire and get the same results.

Yes, if you want to use a bulky relay that is fine, but this is set up to be automatic. You could also switch the pink/black wire and get the same results.
:cool2: when can I get one......how much?

I like the looks of that too.......Nice work

Put me down for one as well:)

Shouldn't be long now. It's been well over a year in development (mostly procrastination on my part) but my New Years resolution was to get a few of these projects finished. When ready it will be listed with the fuel filters here:

http://www.kennedydiesel.com/detail.cfm?ID=324

:cool2: How much?

Nice work John,
Definately worth the wait and a nice factory look. You can put me down for one as well. Does it come with the OP switch? The one I have is over 2 years old and starting to leak past the terminals.

Yep, comes with the OP switch.

Steve

John,

How long can we expect your pump to last--miles/hours???

T-Rex, I think I saw a post where it was supposed to outlast your truck.:eek: :)

John,

How long can we expect your pump to last--miles/hours???
Typical life expectancy is 40k+ hours...

Based on my average of 46 MPH that would give me about 1,840,000 miles. Yep, I think it will outlast the truck. :D

more info on the holly red please, i have one in the barn not being used...

does it flow when off? supply enough pressure?

Typical life expectancy is 40k+ hours...
Is that 40,000 hours? If so that one hell of a motor. Most electric motrs are rated in the 1000 - 4000 hour range.

more info on the holly red please, i have one in the barn not being used...

does it flow when off? supply enough pressure?Ask WI Huck about his Holley pump. Life measured in months...

As for the life expectancy of mine, the word is 40k hours. I've had mine running continually since June, but there's no waty I'll ever have the patience to wait 4-5 years...

Even if it were to fail, the stator assembly can be replaced w/o removing the plumbing from the line just like swapping a filter...

John,

Would the life expectancy be reduced if a pre-filter isn't used, or does it matter?

I sure like the size of this pump. I wonder how long my FM100 will last, hmmmm.

John, will your pump have any components that would be vulnerable to biodiesel? Any nitrile, PVC, natural rubber etc.? Seem the stock AC Delco pumps on the 6.5s don't do too well with Biodiesel. I went through 2 mystery failures during the summer and fall of last year.

No worries about prefilters etc. One oring and the actual wheel are all I'd be concerned about. I believe the oring is nitrile, but easily swapped.
I have zero background with bio diesel or what it reacts with. There is a 150°f temp limit I believe.

University of Idaho has one of the best overviews on biodiesel I've seen. This was posted on the Alt fuel thread on this page. Link for the Material Compatibility page: http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Pages/biodiesel22.html.

Well, I'm really sorry that I made a prediction that I'm gonna need a lift pump by summer.

Summer ain't here yet...............and today that SOB quit running!


Lift pump #1.........NAPA 2P74001.........quit after 12k miles....9 months

Lift pump #2.........NAPA 2P74001.........quit after 14k miles....9 months

John............I think I may be needing that pump a little bit sooner...

:joke: is right. The Holley Red pump lasted me exactly one month when it sputtered and almost left me stranded. I pulled it out and now I am running a Stanadyne FM 100. That one is still working almost a year later, but is not making the PSI it once did. Others here are running two of the FM 100's together with success. I am waiting to see if this new pump will be the answer.

I was messing around with some friends today with my Quad/Edge stack. It still ran very strong and left a bunch of innocent bystanders stranded at the stop light for a few green/red light cycles before they got the courage up to drive through the smoke. :D ):h :ro)

I have since hooked up the Holley to a power source and it runs. PM me with an offer if you want it.

I was messing around with some friends today with my Quad/Edge stack. It still ran very strong and left a bunch of innocent bystanders stranded at the stop light for a few green/red light cycles before they got the courage up to drive through the smoke. :D ):h :ro)


):h :driver: :RockOn: ):h


mmmmmmmm.......smokey:D

BTW, Mark you have a REALY nice shop. Not that I have ever seen it or anything and if the cops ask I swear I have never been in Franklin WI in my life;) ):h

what about when your "werent" in Michigan. i seem to remember a lady in a white minivan???? needless to say there was lot o smoke coming from multiple trucks

yea....................I do have to say "it" looked like a rather large explosion from a distance):h

Sure that wasn't Franklin,WI this weekend???

what about when your "werent" in Michigan. i seem to remember a lady in a white minivan???? needless to say there was lot o smoke coming from multiple trucks
If I was in Wi this weekend......my trip to MI wouldnt hold a candle to it. Think adding 1 truck and no wind to the MI events :eek:

University of Idaho has one of the best overviews on biodiesel I've seen. This was posted on the Alt fuel thread on this page. Link for the Material Compatibility page: http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Pages/biodiesel22.html.

The head, being anodized aluminum will be fine. The metalic part of the rotor and stator assy is stainless steel. Th plumbing nipples are brass, so that would need to be changed. The oring that seals the head to the stator is simple enough to change. I didn't see Buna compatibility listed. The composite part of the rotor and any adhesives that may or may not be used in it's construction are still being investigated.

Well, I'm really sorry that I made a prediction that I'm gonna need a lift pump by summer.

Summer ain't here yet...............and today that SOB quit running!


Lift pump #1.........NAPA 2P74001.........quit after 12k miles....9 months

Lift pump #2.........NAPA 2P74001.........quit after 14k miles....9 months

John............I think I may be needing that pump a little bit sooner...

I will be looking at doing a couple of "in house" installs of the prototype unit(s) if you are interested. I'd want you to be down near the low fuel light on arrival if we plan to start at the tank sender/pickup area...

I will be looking at doing a couple of "in house" installs of the prototype unit(s) if you are interested. I'd want you to be down near the low fuel light on arrival if we plan to start at the tank sender/pickup area...
Count me in........tired of replacing Napa pumps.

Already have 7/16 hose from pickup to pump, and back to steel line behind fuel cooler.
If it needs to be replaced, I know all too well about diesel fuel coming out of the lines and spilling all over me while laying on a creeper..........even better when you do it outside on a windy day!!:eek:

I am going to the KO Engineering RASP Mechanical system when I am ready for a lift pump. Mechanical, Simple, Bypass capable,
The CTD guys have been killing holley blue's, mallory, etc like they are going out of style.

When K-O engineering get's the DMX application done... no more worries about the electron pumps.

Why doesn't someone else Email them and be a beta tester? I have too many Irons in the fire right now..... and just think.... you can take flak for a while! LOL

Stoner,

1/2" would be better. Best would be Trippin's pickup (I have on hand) to bulkhead and all hose to pump at 5/8"

John......Let's :grd: .

The head, being anodized aluminum will be fine. The metalic part of the rotor and stator assy is stainless steel. Th plumbing nipples are brass, so that would need to be changed. The oring that seals the head to the stator is simple enough to change. I didn't see Buna compatibility listed. The composite part of the rotor and any adhesives that may or may not be used in it's construction are still being investigated.
Thanks for looking into this, John. I'd be interested in a "final solution" to my lift pump problems.

John

The word of the day is Luranyl.

Although I cannot garauntee it, I would be surprised is Biodiesel caused a problem with the impeller.

Kennedy,
How many prototypes are you planning on running? I am alos about two hours away and could plan a trip if youwant an 05 as well!
Let me know, Darren in Baldwin, WI.

I think we did 11 heads. 2 are out, and one is on my test stand not anodized. I'll have to see. I think I have 3 pump units here, but can always order more. Just waiting to finalize the head rather than build inventory. Finishing up testing on my oil bypass filter kit tonight...

If you want to test one out west I will volunteer! I am in the process of plumbing in my tool/tank combo and would like to only open up the fuel line once :)

If your looking to do testing you may want to look at one of these. Althought not really called out for diesel they do look just like some of the one pictured above.

http://www.lainginc.com/D_Series.htm

If your looking to do testing you may want to look at one of these. Althought not really called out for diesel they do look just like some of the one pictured above.

http://www.lainginc.com/D_Series.htm
The pumps on that link, they do not put out much fuel with 8-9 feet of head. A vacum pump upstream would be doing all of the work anyways.

The pumps on that link, they do not put out much fuel with 8-9 feet of head. A vacum pump upstream would be doing all of the work anyways.
If you look at the D4 curves you will see the following numbers

7' head
2 GPM
17.5 Watts

or

4' head
4 GPM
19 Watts

Converting from feet of head to psi that would give you

16.1 psi
120 GPH
17.5 Watts

or

9.2 psi
240 GPH
19 Watts

Which will work just fine for a truck according to the chart. One would need to truely test one first to see if it would put that out because all the ratings are for water and fuel will not respond the same. There is no listing for how well it will suck from the tank and not all pumps will do that (some must be gravity feed), and no listing for the material the rotor is made from. So it must be tested but Dipper since you have the test results just post them for everyone. :cool:

For some reason I thought that chart was in GPH.

It is hard to believe such a small unit can pump so much fuel.

Big D have you ever looked at a pressure gauge while driving with your pump?

For some reason I thought that chart was in GPH.

It is hard to believe such a small unit can pump so much fuel.

Big D have you ever looked at a pressure gauge while driving with your pump?

Remember it's WATER not Fuel they are listed for. All we need now are real world test results on diesel fuel and if the pump will hold up to it, Dipper says he has them but I guess he doesn't want to tell. :confused:

With a specific gravity of 0.8 for diesel fuel, 7' head is 2.4 psi and 4' head is 1.4 psi.

If you look at the D4 curves you will see the following numbers

7' head
2 GPM
17.5 Watts

or

4' head
4 GPM
19 Watts

Converting from feet of head to psi that would give you

16.1 psi
120 GPH
17.5 Watts

or

9.2 psi
240 GPH
19 Watts

:cool:

With a specific gravity of 0.8 for diesel fuel, 7' head is 2.4 psi and 4' head is 1.4 psi.:confused: .............Now in english please:wtf: Thanx

With a specific gravity of 0.8 for diesel fuel, 7' head is 2.4 psi and 4' head is 1.4 psi.
Antt

How did you come up with that? I was not sure of the calculation so I did not post it but my guess was to convert from feet head of water to psi water to diesel. So that would be 1 feet head = 2.31 psi water. Water having a specific gravety of 1.

4 feet head water * 2.31 = 9.24 psi water *.8 specific gravity of fuel = 7.39 psi for diesel. This may or may not be correct.

It's just basically the pressure increase produced by the pump at the cooresponding flowrate.

head x SG x 62.4/144 = psi

That seem like its off. I found the conversion from feet head to psi in a plumbing specification guide which listed it as 2.31 to 1. With your numbers the 7 feet head water would only be 3.03 psi water. I do not know which is correct.

Diesel Tech

I can assure it's correct. The 2.31 feet of head to psi is for water at an SG of 1.0. In fact 2.31=144/62.4.

Diesel Tech

I can assure it's correct. The 2.31 feet of head to psi is for water at an SG of 1.0. In fact 2.31=144/62.4.
So if we applied a .8 multiplier would that not also be correct.

(4 feet head * .8 *144)/62.2 = 7.4084 psi

Not trying to argue just trying to understand.

To get the PSI output, you would not use the density of diesel fuel.
The "feet" of water column is just a way of measuring PSI (force), and PSI is the same no matter what medium it's applied against.

Diesel Tech

No, because it's feet of head per psi (ft/psi), so you need to divide by 2.31 not multiply and multiply the result by the specific gravity of 0.8; 4 feet head of diesel = 1.3867 psi.

But even this is not 100% correct because we've been discussing only static head.

If this is boring the other users and you're interested, I can PM you with more details.


So if we applied a .8 multiplier would that not also be correct.

(4 feet head * .8 *144)/62.2 = 7.4084 psi

Not trying to argue just trying to understand.

Liquid density in PPG X .052 X fluid height in feet = PSI at the column base.
In layman terms (Based on fresh water) 8.2 PPG water X .052 X 7 = 2.98 PSI at the base of the column or at the pump in this application.

Nope not bored.............Still tryin to pick up what your layin down though

Liquid density in PPG X .052 X fluid height in feet = PSI at the column base.
In layman terms (Based on fresh water) 8.2 PPG water X .052 X 7 = 2.98 PSI at the base of the column or at the pump in this application.
Would this not be the same depth x density x .00981 ?:eek:


You would then convert back to IMP

Antt

PM sent.

Not the same

Diesel density spec is 6.8-7.2 PPG depending on if it is #1 or #2 fuel.
On an average of lets say 7.0 PPG it would work like this. 7.0 PPG x.052 x 7 feet head = 2.54 Psi required to move the 7' column. So 7' head = 2.54 psi when relating to diesel fuel.

Inches of mercury, feet of water, pounds per square inch, joules?, are all just units of force.

The pumps performance table was not in PSI, but rather feet of water. All you do is convert to PSI. It has nothing to do with the specific gravity of the fluid you are pumping.

To get the PSI output, you would not use the density of diesel fuel.
The "feet" of water column is just a way of measuring PSI (force), and PSI is the same no matter what medium it's applied against.
This is also correct. Head is just used for GPH performance curves. The PSI that a given pump puts out at the pump discharge will be the same no matter what density of fluid is being pumped.

Inches of mercury, feet of water, pounds per square inch, joules?, are all just units of force.

The pumps performance table was not in PSI, but rather feet of water. All you do is convert to PSI. It has nothing to do with the specific gravity of the fluid you are pumping.
McRat you are definitely on board with pump operations.:beerchug:

its like 1/2=.5=50% just different ways of explaining it, but still the same thing

The pump curve is in feet of head, which is feet of head of the product being pumped. For a centifugal pump, the pressure (psi) indicated on a pressure gauge, at a given flow, on the outlet of a pump will absolutely be different for water than it is for diesel.

So are you saying the pump will draw more watts or less? Energy is never lost.

on the outlet of a pump will absolutely be different for water than it is for diesel.

This i understand...............The rest well...........Still got my interest though

....... McRat is saying that Energy is energy, no matter what color it is.

...... Duratys is saying that different fluids have different flow dynamics.


....... maybe I missed something?

Remember it's WATER not Fuel they are listed for. All we need now are real world test results on diesel fuel and if the pump will hold up to it, Dipper says he has them but I guess he doesn't want to tell. :confused:Sorry Chief...I don't have as much free time to spend on the board as you do....I have to work, ya know.....when I get paid for a job, I actually do it.

I had no problems....pressure was fine...did pull down just like all the pumps so far have...but the great thing about it was piece of mind. If the pumps fail...the truck will still run....is this enough for you Steven? I remember earlier you posted about having test results and not sharing them as they seemed to cause a dispute....I'm just taking your advice. That's why I would like to talk to Reggie Walton personally.....I know he doesn't frequent the board much and wouldn't mind helping the guy out if I could....

By the way...the commanded and actual stayed very close...almost even through the mid and upper but did begin to seperate slightly.... As far as lifting the fuel, the main pump will make up for what this pump can't...it is a flow through design....but I have a feeling you'll find a way to say it won't work or isn't good enough.

On edit: I did test the pumps with and without the Extreme....it took me awhile, again because I have to work for a living.... and I also tested the Trippin pick up with and without the pumps as well. Again I'm not sure if I should post all these results as they took me a few weeks to accomplish this all and it pissed some people off that I kept their parts longer than I intended.....not to mention, I don't want to create a controversial issue.

..gee Steve, you didn't have this many questions for me when I could tollerate you long enough to listen to you on the phone......go figure??????

I think it would be easier if we drop basic centrifugal pumps, fluid dynamics, fluid density and head pressure in general and focus specifically on how a centrifugal pump would react in the DMax fuel system alone. This will reduce the confusion of discussing these items in general. There is no easy way to explain centrifugal pumps in general.(Too many factors to consider with the different system designs)

The pressure dynamics of a centrifugal pump will indeed be different based on the various applications (head,fluid density and final pressure at the end of the line) The discharge pressure AT THE PUMP on a centrifugal pump AS IT APPLIES TO OUR SYSTEM will be constant at the max the pump will put out before it slips fluid. Simply due to the fact that it is deadheading into the system so to speak due to line size/friction, filter restriction and feeding a pos disp pump with way more volume than the stock DMax system can move. The pressure at the surface (OEM pump,filter area) will change due to the fluid dynamics based on inertia, load, line and filter restrictions, new filters, old filters, blah blah blah.

The main thing we are trying to accomplish here is maintaining pos pressure up to the Bosch gear (LP) pump suction. This will allow the gear pump to fill, make priming filters easier, keep vapors in solution, provide better filter media utilization and the list of benefits goes on. These mentioned centrifugal pumps will accomplish this with the added benefit of reliability. (Long life) I know because I've been running this one for over 24K miles while monitoring pressures at the pump itself and at the shrader test port.

In general I've been running and testing lift pumps on my truck for +70K miles (using 4 different pump types) Initially I dismantled my entire fuel system from the tank sender up to the LP gear pump, doing vac/pressure/friction psi loss related testing in search of leaks under vac which ultimately ended up being fuel vaporization under system vac/heat. As far as I know there was one other person who ran a lift pump on a DMax prior to myself. (Leo- CntrlCalDmax) A couple of weeks earlier I think. I did enjoy doing all this as it is what I've been doing for a living for over 27 years and my truck has become an addictive hobby. Believe me when the lift pump threads started back then myself and others were on the ropes as the attacts were numerous. I think all that has changed now as more people are on board with the benefits. I did not run the elaborate Fass,Fuel Perporator systems but judging from what I read here they also seem to do a good job. The only thing that I couldn't sell myself on with these systems was the massive fuel recirculation but it does appears to be a non issue.

Of the pumps I have tested the centrifugal pump mentioned here is the best by far and will last the life of your truck. IMHO if someone were interested in purchasing this pump the best place to obtain one would be from http://www.kennedydiesel.com/. He has already completed the testing leg work, modifications and made the necessary changes to guarantee their reliability with diesel fuel, not to mention a factory looking control harness to compliment the pump with additional features. I'm sure his prices will be competative and you will be supporting this site through a registered vender. Another plus is you can also customize your system through different pump arrangements to obtain the desired pressure and GPH flow you desire. 2 Psi increment changes are easily accomplished.

Hope this clears things up,
Tommy

This is something I've been working on for a long time. We've got the design and specs about figured out and should be ready to go soon. The units that I am using are not the ones pictured, and are being built specifically for Kennedy Diesel.

We see 6psi operating pressure on my Duramax...

6 psi would be plenty. :D Heck, I'd be happy with 5 psi. :cool2:


........ Kennedy, how much psi would you gain by placing another in series?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually rated in GPM. It will free flow out to 5+GPM based on 1/2" pipe. Pressure is minimal at about 6psi on an idling Dmax. Add a second unit inline and it will double the psi. It will attach directly to either (or both) the inlet or outlet of the next gen "universal" Mega head so there will only be 2 hose clamp filttings, no bypass etc. The key is VOLUME, free flow if shut down, reliability, near silent operation, and easy, simple one direction fuel flow...


Here Burner this was a quote from him earlier.

Thanks.

I stopped by the plumbing supply store on the way into work and picked one up. They have several options for this pump. I got the D4 version (highest output) with a stainless steel impeller, a stainless steel seperator, bronze houseing, 1/2" NPT in/out, with a viton o-ring. Should be able to get it up on the flow bench this weekend and will post the results once we have them. My guess from the flow charts on the web site we should see around 6 - 7 psi @ 100 - 120 GPH flow using diesel fuel for the test. It's a centrifugal pump which will allow the system to draw fuel through it when turned off. I think it will be OK for the truck making 400 RWHP or less but might be a bit short for the high HP trucks based on previous testing of higher output pumps on high HP applications.

Actually they will work at any HP level. Just tailor your pump setup to your needs. John has already proven this. It is now water under the bridge.

Actually they will work at any HP level. Just tailor your pump setup to your needs. John has already proven this. It is now water under the bridge.

:exactly: I guess I don't understand your "interest" DT as I thought you had already designed something? Will your LP solution have the standard six month order cycle or will it be even longer?

Brandon

Any time I see something that may work I look into it. There is alway several ways to skin the cat. The solution we have designed is for high Hp applications and incorperates a full flow bypass, filter assemble and feedback control electronics. This may cost to much for some looking for something less. If this pump will work for lower Hp applications and have a cost savings it's a benifit to our customers to offer them something with less features. Yes, it make take six months to do the testing and get them ready but I would rather do that then ship them out and let customers fight out the problems of air in the fuel system, fuel leaks, cutting fuel lines and failures. Since we already have the solution for these problems with our current design a simple bracket, pump and relay will have this system ready in short order if the pump passes our testing.

Gentlemen, I am going to put my dork on the line here and make some pretty bold statements. After that, I probably will not be allowed here on the boards any more, so pay attention.

You know, I used to be like the general populus around here (and elsewhere) and when a new product would come on to the market and look for the cheapest solution. It wasn't until I became a vendor that I truly understood the damage I was doing to worthy product developers and supporting vendors by performing such a practice. I have since changed my tune and would hope that I can get you to change yours.

I have been running John's pumps for almost a year now. Without incident! No loss of fuel supply, silent running, truly a work of art. These units are the answer to all your low pressure fuel supply issues. But now it appears that John's efforts to provide a viable fuel supply solution, at what will be a reasonable cost, are being usurped by some members on this board. This does nothing but really PI$$ ME OFF!!! Should these particular parties succeed, it will make the second time that I've seen JK screwed over first-hand developing a product. You guys need to remember this and patronize those businesses that research, develop, and test these products for our use. Not buy someone else's reverse-engineered version. I can reverse engineer something for cheaper $$$. But what good does that do but screw over my fellow vendors? I don't do that anymore, and I hope that you all will take my advice. Understanding how a product works and what it's capabilities are, is fine. Not to mention, it broadens a person's understanding of what is going on in their machine. But trying to stick it to someone, by copying the design and selling it as your own, is crap!

You may or may not like JK or some of the things he has to say. If you do not, don't purchase his products. Don't expect him to support products he didn't sell you. If you like him and trust the products and expertese he has brought to the market, then purchase his products. If you have already and will continue to do so, God Bless You.

I hope that most of you will realize that JK is only one vendor in this position. There are several other vendors that act like this, and are worthy of our business for their efforts in bringing Diesel Performance to the masses. Please, continue to support those that put in the time and effort to bring valuable products to market. Not those who would break down someone else's hard work and try to pass it off as their own!

Sincerely,
Aron Howlett
Amusement Ride Diesel Performance

BTW, the pumps I am running work just fine into the 600HP mark!

:Nothing_f Gentlemen, I am going to put my dork on the line here and make some pretty bold statements. After that, I probably will not be allowed here on the boards any more, so pay attention.

You know, I used to be like the general populus around here (and elsewhere) and when a new product would come on to the market and look for the cheapest solution. It wasn't until I became a vendor that I truly understood the damage I was doing to worthy product developers and supporting vendors by performing such a practice. I have since changed my tune and would hope that I can get you to change yours.

I have been running John's pumps for almost a year now. Without incident! No loss of fuel supply, silent running, truly a work of art. These units are the answer to all your low pressure fuel supply issues. But now it appears that John's efforts to provide a viable fuel supply solution, at what will be a reasonable cost, are being usurped by some members on this board. This does nothing but really PI$$ ME OFF!!! Should these particular parties succeed, it will make the second time that I've seen JK screwed over first-hand developing a product. You guys need to remember this and patronize those businesses that research, develop, and test these products for our use. Not buy someone else's reverse-engineered version. I can reverse engineer something for cheaper $$$. But what good does that do but screw over my fellow vendors? I don't do that anymore, and I hope that you all will take my advice. Understanding how a product works and what it's capabilities are, is fine. Not to mention, it broadens a person's understanding of what is going on in their machine. But trying to stick it to someone, by copying the design and selling it as your own, is crap!

You may or may not like JK or some of the things he has to say. If you do not, don't purchase his products. Don't expect him to support products he didn't sell you. If you like him and trust the products and expertese he has brought to the market, then purchase his products. If you have already and will continue to do so, God Bless You.

I hope that most of you will realize that JK is only one vendor in this position. There are several other vendors that act like this, and are worthy of our business for their efforts in bringing Diesel Performance to the masses. Please, continue to support those that put in the time and effort to bring valuable products to market. Not those who would break down someone else's hard work and try to pass it off as their own!

Sincerely,
Aron Howlett
Amusement Ride Diesel Performance

BTW, the pumps I am running work just fine into the 600HP mark!:agreed:

I've always been kind of fond of Ripoff and Duplicate but Rob and Duplicate is pretty close too.
...

:ro) AMIANTHUS :ro)

I have over 10,000 miles on my Holley Red pushing thru the Nicktane Cat Filter and the Stock OEM filter. I do not keep track of my engine hours so I would be guessing at that but have had Zero Problems with it.

It supplies enough fuel for what I am running right now as far as pressure, even without a gauge to monitor it at the filter head........I know this because while viewing data with the TECH II, I do not see more than a 3K psi drop from desired to actual fuel rail pressure. I do not know if that is too much of a drop in pressure, just posting what I have seen......

It is noisy :rolleyes: and I am looking for a better option as the bigger tunes, especially the Xtreme demand a lot of fuel.

Just my personal experience.......

T:cool: NY

Amianthus, I couldn't agree more.
I'm also running John's pump and know first hand that he has put fourth a lot of time and effort into this and his many projects. He has produced many excellant products from which we can all benefit.

Originally Posted by Diesel Tech
I've always been kind of fond of Ripoff and Duplicate but Rob and Duplicate is pretty close too.
Well since John Kennedy has already clearly stated this is not the pump he is using I cannot see how this applies. We have already design a high end solution and we are now looking at a low end product. Two different products for two different applications. Until the testing is completed on this pump we will never know the answer.

I, for one, am waiting on the new synthetic JK Mega filter and LP. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Is there an expected release date? I hope it's soon; I want the cleanest diesel possible to supply the injectors. <o:p></o:p>

Well since John Kennedy has already clearly stated this is not the pump he is using I cannot see how this applies. We have already design a high end solution and we are now looking at a low end product. Two different products for two different applications. Until the testing is completed on this pump we will never know the answer.

So we are to believe that without the prior post from Kennedy that you would have located a centrifugal pump as a solution? You have always said that a truck under 400 HP does not need a pump, correct? Now you are going to develop this pump to solve the very problem that you claim is a non-issue?

I think that the real reason is to harm another supporting vendor and spiteful at best. :shake:

Brandon

The spitefulness in your last few post is fine but do not make misleading statements to stick up for your buddy. I said that under 400 RWHP trucks run fine with the stock system. A smaller version pump system only gets the system back to what Bosch design it to be long ago. If you dig back to some of the old fuel pump threads you will find where I post this information along with the fuel pickup I designed back before your buddy jumped on the fuel pump band wagon! Back then your buddy stated fuel pumps were unnecessary, they did no good, so why then is he now wanting to make them! There are several manufactures making programmers, pressure boxes, gauge mounts and I'm sure there will be several making fuel pump kits. FAST and Preporator have been shipping kits for a few years already so we will offer two new versions............. so what, gives the consumer more choices.

I have been running John's pumps for almost a year now. Without incident! No loss of fuel supply, silent running, truly a work of art. These units are the answer to all your low pressure fuel supply issues. But now it appears that John's efforts to provide a viable fuel supply solution, at what will be a reasonable cost, are being usurped by some members on this board.
I would have no problem buying a pump from John. The only problem is you can't, so another solution has to be found. Both John and TTS talk about how wonderful their pump will be. That is the problem, it is nothing but talk. There is a demand for lift pumps, and outside of Air Dog or other very expensive solutions there is nothing. John has been talking about this pump for over a year, has place holder on his site, but you can't buy one. So until John has something for sale, don't cry that others are finding a solution, cheap or not.

Jim

Brandon

The spitefulness in your last few post is fine but do not make misleading statements to stick up for your buddy. I said that under 400 RWHP trucks run fine with the stock system. A smaller version pump system only gets the system back to what Bosch design it to be long ago. If you dig back to some of the old fuel pump threads you will find where I post this information along with the fuel pickup I designed back before your buddy jumped on the fuel pump band wagon! Back then your buddy stated fuel pumps were unnecessary, they did no good, so why then is he now wanting to make them! There are several manufactures making programmers, pressure boxes, gauge mounts and I'm sure there will be several making fuel pump kits. FAST and Preporator have been shipping kits for a few years already so we will offer two new versions............. so what, gives the consumer more choices.

I have been nothing close to spiteful. I have only asked questions trying to understand your motives. The people of this board can make their own decisions as to what is going on.

Yes, John is my friend. He has helped me tremendously with my truck and making it possible for it to do more then I ever thought it could. John has always been a proponent of lift pumps in any discussions we have had and has worked hard to come up with an innovative solution. It has not been rushed to market; it has been tested extensively and won't be released until it meets the needs of the diesel community properly.

I have no problem questioning your motives like you and others have done just like it has happened on your torque converter threads. I agree, it is about consumer choice and I know where I will exercise mine.

I would have no problem buying a pump from John. The only problem is you can't, so another solution has to be found. Both John and TTS talk about how wonderful their pump will be. That is the problem, it is nothing but talk. There is a demand for lift pumps, and outside of Air Dog or other very expensive solutions there is nothing. John has been talking about this pump for over a year, has place holder on his site, but you can't buy one. So until John has something for sale, don't cry that others are finding a solution, cheap or not.

Jim
Jim,
Did you call John and ask for a pump. When I called my pump was delivered to my door 2 days later. If I'm not mistaken he has a few pre production units available now.

Jim,
Did you call John and ask for a pump. When I called my pump was delivered to my door 2 days later. If I'm not mistaken he has a few pre production units available now.
well, then I'll give him a call next week. Bought stuff from him before and have been satisfied.

Jim

:cool2: :joke: has some ready "before" the release...... kinda the reverse for most of the .. up and comming stuff... we have see on here before. :rolleyes:

This is something I've been working on for a long time. We've got the design and specs about figured out and should be ready to go soon. The units that I am using are not the ones pictured, and are being built specifically for Kennedy Diesel.

We see 6psi operating pressure on my Duramax... Sounds good.... I do have a few questions:
1. Where is the 6 PSI measured?
2. What loading conditions... idle or full throttle?
3. What effect does loading have on PSI? (does it even matter?)

I have noticed something on my truck that I'd like your insight on -
After changing fuel filters (both OEM and post-OEM Mega) recently, I was priming & bleeding them. After everything was done I started the engine and it was surging a bit. No problem, fairly normal.... I pushed on the primer pump a few times and the engine almost immediatly started running "harsh", sounding much like a Powerstroke from a few years ago (CLACKety-CLACKety-CLACKety).
This was repeatable - pump up some pressure and it runs harsh, quieting down ~10 seconds after pumping is stopped. The difference between a normal idle and the harsh idle is very noticable.

My question is why would it do this?
If it idles that harshly with fuel system pressure, do I want to add a lift pump? Is this an indication of a possible problem with my engine? Does the fuel priming pump develop too much pressure? John, your insights & opinions would be helpful - or anyone else who could shed light on the situation.

Thanks!

HB,
That hand priming pump develops a lot of pressure. I once wrapped a 30 PSI gauge. It was pumped up tight but I could have easily gone further. The pump is only about 1.5 " in diameter so it doesn't take much hand pressure to get the PSI up there.

Hbruns,

Please call me and we can discuss.

My truck idels like normal with the liftpumps I am running if thats a fear of yours.

OK -
Talking to John Kennedy and reading your posts, it is looking like using the hand primer pump will generate too much pressure to the fuel pump, causing the harsh idle.

Right now I'm awaiting the soon-to-be released, tested & supported, trouble-shot, debugged, fully sacntioned and blessed lift pump solution from Kennedy Diesel (http://www.kennedydiesel.com/).

i didnt read all the way through this post but dont leave out Super Diesel's setup. It's a very nice setup and works very well. I like it cause the main pump is switched on and off with a hobbs. I have a pic if anyone wants to see.

The lift pump is required for modifed trucks running higher horse power correct? As running a stock truck or truck with say Attitude and Juice would not neccassarily require a lift pump like John has put together?

There are several reasons to run a lift pump. I don't know of a set HP level that it would be required, but I would make the argument that power above 400 HP would be a good idea.

Why stress the fuel system needlessly when such a simple solution exists? Not to mention that the positive pressure helps to ensure proper lubrication, adequate cooling, and sufficient supply (to limit the potential cavitation issues) to maintain elevated power levels. Why risk the damage?

I would say that a plain Juice would be fine. Beyond that, the truck will run at higher levels, but you'll be on borrowed time (IMHO).

Kewl,


I'm new to the whole diesel thing, always had gasser's so I like to clarify things twice lol.

Shouldn't be long now. It's been well over a year in development (mostly procrastination on my part) but my New Years resolution was to get a few of these projects finished. When ready it will be listed with the fuel filters here:

http://www.kennedydiesel.com/detail.cfm?ID=324
"This kit is in final stages of testing and should be ready mid to end of February." - JK

John, It is now mid to late February how is this project coming along?

Slower that expected (what isn't?) but I will have a bunch of pumps in hand shortly. The heads should be ready soon also. I should also have about 20 control harness/module assy's shortly with the major production to follow.

John - how's the progress coming? ETA? Not trying to rush you but I see there's been no posts for awhile.

Sometimes these things take unexpected turns. I should know. I hate it when that happens.
mike

Anything new?

Patiently waiting.................................:cool:

I'll have about 15 of the first run production control harnesses on Monday or Tuesday. That's all the news that I have for now.

John,

are the lift pumps ready for purchase yet? Pulling season is rapidly approaching.

Add me to the list of salivating dogs -- I mean waiting customers...

Nothing on his website yet but he may have initial run units available if you really can't wait. What with things thawing out and spring approaching a man's fancy turns to....MORE POWER):h

There's a big batch of motors due (actually past due) in any day now, and a smaller batch of first round pumpheads due in any day now. Once the first batch of heads is here and I approve the design or make revisions, we'll run a large batch of heads also. Same with the pump controllers, only the design is approved and waiting on production bids.

Just got the word that the chips for the pump motors are delaying them. Looking at 2 weeks...

John that's no good, Uncle Sam is going to want his share of the MORE POWER funds about that time:( Just kidding ;) I expect it will be top notch when it is all together and orchestrating the mix of components and vendors is never easy. Just like the waiting.... :exactly:we'll stay tuned.

On the plus side, the large batch of heads should be coming close by then also...

FM100's

Anyone know the psi rating of the FM100 lift pumps? I was thinking of running the single 5 micron but not sure if it will be adequate with the Extreme. From what I've read running 2 doesn't add any more pressure correct?

I finally got my Carter 8PSI on. I'm running it with a Trippin pickup and OEM fuel filtration.

Runs good. Let's see if the LayDownInFifth problem goes away tomorrow at the Diesel Drags.

I am running (2) FM100's in parallel and it maintains rail pressure very well with the Extreme. WOT desired pressure 23,200psi/actual 20,500psi(lowest pressure drop). All via TECH2 recorded runs.

Thanks. What micron filters are you using? 5's ?

I am running (2) FM100's in parallel and it maintains rail pressure very well with the Extreme. WOT desired pressure 23,200psi/actual 20,500psi(lowest pressure drop). All via TECH2 recorded runs.

John, how is the progress on the pumps coming?

John, how is the progress on the pumps coming?
I thought it was mentioned that a few are ready now. Maybe that batch is out. :confuzeld

I thought it was mentioned that a few are ready now. Maybe that batch is out. :confuzeld
Not yet, just got an email from John and a few harnesses are ready but the production pumps are still a few days out.......soon I hope :grd:

I hope I'm on the list... I've asked to be on it... Oh well

There's a big batch of motors due (actually past due) in any day now, and a smaller batch of first round pumpheads due in any day now. Once the first batch of heads is here and I approve the design or make revisions, we'll run a large batch of heads also. Same with the pump controllers, only the design is approved and waiting on production bids.Any news?

Looks like the motors should ship to me on Wednesday or Thursday. Pump heads are in production and should be ready by the time the motors get here.

First batch pump controllers are done, and major production batch is in the works...

OK, good news/bad news. I'll have a couple dozen units ready to ship soon, and supply should be good. The hangup has been getting them certified to run at the higher output. We had been trying to squeeze out a bit higher performance, but in the end this was not possible. This has caused a need to step them back a bit, but they will still produce approx 4 psi plus in std form and can be compounded to 8 psi plus. They will be weatherproof, and the heads are designed to be coupled together with only a single oring between them. A single unit will cover 99% of the applications, and those wanting to push things can go to dual units or beyond.

This has been a very trying experience, and I am relieved to finally have an answer...

Hell yeah! :ro) More pics please. :cool2: ............. rut-roe schaggy, forget the pics. :o:

Hell yeah! :ro) More pics please. :cool2: ............. rut-roe schaggy, forget the pics. :o:

At this point it really doesn't matter much any more. Picture on my site...