i no this is a sore subject. but this is a helleva lot of money to spend.my ally has finally failed.and i need advise on preferred upgrade kit and converter.i run the jk va 150,but plan on going with 200++++ and something to stack with it to override speed limter and tire size<any suggestion>?i have heard some stories about va boxes barking before shifts.sure dont want to spend that kind of money and end up in this shape.also pros and cons on all major kits?i am going full tilt.i can do the lobor myself.just need advise on right kit ,as i only want to do this one time.
thanx for any help in advance
chays

p.s.i have heard some rumors about some NEW STUFF coming out,is there any thing to this?should i hold off aliitle while?i sure hate not getting to drive my truck!!!

Well, I don't think too many will disagree with me. The Suncoast Level 3 is about the best bang for your buck out there right now.

If you hold out for the new stuff you can bet it will not be cheap. Maybe better but not cheaper.

I would do a bit of research. Make some phone calls or talk to trans techs here.
Ask the people who run different things.

I think there is a certain closed thread you can read that should give you some info... Good luck

Knowing you plan to go with the VA200+ box, I'd recommend an ATS w/co-pilot upgrade right now. A lot of Suncoast people (though not all) have been having problems with that box. The ATS guys don't seem to have those problems. DTT's stuff is interesting too, but it's going to be a while before enough decent information and testing is out there to make a good decision on it.

P.S. I have one of those VA200+ boxes for sale. PM me if you're interested.

If your planning on going with the Big VA tune, I would advise against the Suncoast stuff. As a whole it doesnt seem to shift as good. ATS w/ co pilot or the DTT option may prove to be a better route. Nothing against the Suncoast stuff, I do a ton of them, but if the VA is your tune of choice....

im loving my ATS tranny, very streetable but it will really get down to business when you turn it up:ro) :ro)

im loving my ATS tranny, very streetable but it will really get down to business when you turn it uphttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/rockon.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/rockon.gifOh yeah!!!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/rockon.gif

Wait for the new stuff it will be worth it.Cheap is not always the answer you get what you pay for nowadays.A little extra now will be worth it later.

I am Bill Kondolay one of the co – owners of DTT. In a lot of these transmission threads guys seem to have lost sight that this transmission has no feelings. It relies on the laws of physics / i.e. Pascal’s law and the laws of friction. it does not choose A over B, If it seems that I am over simplifying from here on in it is not with the intent to insult, it is to include those of you unfamiliar with transmissions so you can follow along

PASCAL’S LAW first recognised by the French scientist Blaise Pascal states that “when pressure is applied to an enclosed fluid, the pressure is transmitted undiminished to every point of fluid and to the walls of the container “. In layman’s terms this means surface area times pressure equals force. This is relevant because a lot of you are confusing shift feel and seat of the pants driving with holding capacity.

Lets say company A runs 100 PSI, and company B runs 200 PSI of line pressure it is simple math using the laws of physics, company B is going to hold more power simply because it has more apply force. If you increase the surface area the same laws of physics apply.

If company is A is running a piston with a surface area of 10 square inches and company B is running a piston with a surface area of 20 square inches again the laws of physics will apply and company B will be able to handle more HP. Transmissions are not about black magic and you hear things like there is more than one way to skin a cat. In reality the same laws of physics still govern us all. I strongly suggest you guys look up some of these laws that govern the automatic transmission.

The laws of friction are still laws, company A says they have a surface area of 10 square inches, company B says have 20 square inches, company B says because they have double the surface area (20), they can hold double the HP of company A. You will find that statement to be false even though most of you will not believe that at first.

If you do a little research as I suggested no one will be able to cloud the issues for you now or in the future and you will be able to follow along as I put up the technical information on the DTT product line.

Bill, thats good info and it should help people better understand how these work..

Laymens terms are the best!

http://www.pacificp.com/transmission.htm
http://www.bullydog.com/sale.pl?item=153600 our local guy runs these and has never had any trouble that i know of and he is around 1200HP out of his LLY his site is http://www.davesdiesel.com/ ask for RICK 1-800-DIESEL-8

1200HP outa his LLY?

Come on Phil, its metric horsepower..ya know...

I think I could do more then what they dyno showed, if I woulda strapped it down better...

Maybe 4 LLY's added up?

1200?
Then I woke up!

call him i got you the # he has chips propane nitros bigger injector bigger exhaust bigger turbo different cam that's all i know off the top of my head. i am sure this is at the flywheel but ya his 2002 LB7 had 800 out of it without the bigger injectors or the bigger turbo.

when i went to go for a ride (because he said he would give me one) it was back in the shop b/c he popped the turbo on it so he was fixing it then. he is a tester for BD

sorry for giving you all wet dreams!

You aren't even old enough to have wet dreams yet, are you? Please tell "Mr. 1200 HP" to lay down the crack pipe):h

Bill Kondolay
I appreciate your comments and explanation. Its hard to argue with the laws of physics, Knowing things like this really help me in troubleshooting different systems. Whether it be a tranny, engine, pump, hydraulic systems. etc.
Joe

So basically we have two friends to help us "Pressure" and "Area".

A couple of ways I can see that our two friends can get us into trouble is when company A wants to give us lots of "Area" but they skin the cat the wrong way. They increase "Area" by adding clutches.......but to do this they must make the clutches and steels thinner to accomodate everything into the same stack/diameter as dictated by the Allison case and internals. We do in fact gain "Area" at the expense of rigidity in the clutch stack. :( The obvious result...clutches and steels flexing under load. And after a while the Allison goes -:t . Coating the steels to help insulate or get rid of the heat is just masking the problem. Now if someone was to increase the area by going larger in dia. and/or figure a way to keep the rigidty in the stack then we would experience our first step towards "Allison Nirvana". :D
(DTT?)

Of course we can always add pressure to help out our poor overworked clutches. However, the cat can get skinned the wrong way here as well. Increased pressure could cause driveability problems, harsh shifts, additional heat, unless we controlled that pressure based on rpm and boost just to name a few parameters to be considered. This is the second step to "Allison Nirvana".

Next we need to figure out a way to keep the TCM from adapting and undoing all of our hard work. Perhaps giving the driver control over how hard he/she wants the shift and when he/she wants it to occur with some sort of electronic interface. This is the third step to "Allison Nirvana".
(ATS Co-Pilot)

The fourth and final step to "Allison Nirvana" IMHO is to have a torque converter that contains enough clutch area to keep everything glued together under harsh amounts of torque, without sacraficing drivability in the form of low speed throttle reponse. ie "Torque Multiplication".... not to be confused with stall speed.
(TTS Multiplate)

Now the task is to find one company that can offer us all of these things in one kit.....as by now I think you can see I have used the best from many different companies on my voyage to "Allison Nirvana".

The answer is "Trippin's Transmissions". ):h

An exciting new company that exists only in the minds of the members of this board, whose sole purpose of existence is to stimulate the brains, of those who are interested in achieving "Allison Nirvana". :ro)

Void where prohibited.
Some assembly required.
You results may vary.




I think it's time for my meds.:eek:

Trippin out!

Guy

Go take a pill.):h So, Mr. transman, when you going to fix mine?:cool: You don't know how much you said; or did you.;)
mike

Some of that sounds vaguely familiar :cool:

http://www.pacificp.com/transmission.htm
http://www.bullydog.com/sale.pl?item=153600 our local guy runs these and has never had any trouble that i know of and he is around 1200HP out of his LLY his site is http://www.davesdiesel.com/ ask for RICK 1-800-DIESEL-8Davesdiesel is a joke. Kyle put the whooping on him up in Kenton the last time we pulled against him. Guess kyle must have been running bout 900-1000, lol):h .

Davesdiesel is a joke. Kyle put the whooping on him up in Kenton the last time we pulled against him. Guess kyle must have been running bout 900-1000, lol):h .
Don't cut Kyle short, I'm sure he'd whip on the LLY tooooo.

So Kyle must be over 1350hp ):h :eek: ):h

where was this at? muncie? or BG

FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND DAVESDIESEL RUNS GOOD PULLING, WHEN HE FORGETS TO SHUT OFF THE TANKS,(WHEN HE CHEATS) I ran in to him at a fair, the truck pulled like a freight train i seen his nos tanks in the back seat i didn't care I new I wouldn't win anyways, next year will be a different story...

he doesn't run the NOS or (drugs) as he calls it when it is illegal ...they do check ...or ask him he will show you. he doesn't run it when he doesn't have to because it is hard on everything. those were his words not mine. he pulled at Edon Daze in edon ohio and didn't even run propane b/c he didn't think he needed it. turns out he did because he got kicked... only got 3rd i think ....

i really don't think he cheats (but to each his own) he said his tank was empty when i ask him about the drugs he said they weren't legal here.

either way it is a heck of a truck making wow power

Oh i hope he wasnting cheating, if he did then??????? -:t

I personally have no transmission upgrade and at this moment don't favor anyone. However, I have to say with complete honesty that I am only going to choose a transmission upgrade that has been out long enough to have been subjected to enough power junkies to give me a real world idea if it will "really" hold up for my use. Three companies come to mind as a "safe" bet. The fourth has a lot of proving/proofing to do.

This is a high dollar decision, and I don't have $5,000 to blow on something that "may" hold up. Smoke and mirrors may make a sell, but they don't make happy long term customers. This applies to any business anywhere.

This is my honest personal opinion. Others are free to do and think what they want. The beauty of it is that we have a choice.

This is the quote of the day:ro)

I personally have no transmission upgrade and at this moment don't favor anyone. However, I have to say with complete honesty that I am only going to choose a transmission upgrade that has been out long enough to have been subjected to enough power junkies to give me a real world idea if it will "really" hold up for my use. Three companies come to mind as a "safe" bet. The fourth has a lot of proving/proofing to do.

This is a high dollar decision, and I don't have $5,000 to blow on something that "may" hold up. Smoke and mirrors may make a sell, but they don't make happy long term customers. This applies to any business anywhere.

This is my honest personal opinion. Others are free to do and think what they want. The beauty of it is that we have a choice.

he doesn't run the NOS or (drugs) as he calls it when it is illegal ...they do check ...or ask him he will show you. he doesn't run it when he doesn't have to because it is hard on everything. those were his words not mine. he pulled at Edon Daze in edon ohio and didn't even run propane b/c he didn't think he needed it. turns out he did because he got kicked... only got 3rd i think ....

i really don't think he cheats (but to each his own) he said his tank was empty when i ask him about the drugs he said they weren't legal here.

either way it is a heck of a truck making wow power
Why did he even have the tank in his truck, Tomac and the rest take the tank out so there is no ????.

I had the tanks shut off but the valve leaks, that must have been why i pulled so good ):h

I'm trying to remember where he placed at Muncie last year, did he even make it to the pull off?

Tim, that depends, was he spraying or not ?

No tanks, no question.

when i seen him he opened his door real quick and shut it as soon as he knew I was there(too late already seen the tanks), I spoke to one of the other trucks that came with him and asked him what he had done. he gave me some of his mods(omiting the propane), and I said" you got propane too", he doesn't say anything and I tell him" I looked under your truck and seen the tank" then he says he just drives it. These trucks whooped all the other trucks by I would say 30 to 60+ft davesdiesels truck pulled out the door, there were at least 10 trucks there most were fords, and one was a highly modified ford(propane too), three were dodges, two other d-maxes(not stock, both beat by over 60ft, mine broke)
maybe he does not cheat I do not know, but next year i will request that the tanks be removed at money pulls.

i agree they ought to have been reguardless so there is no question. as for me ....if you are going to make rules.....make it apply to all of them because rules not inforced are a joke.......btw i don't think he had the bigger turbo in for muncie i think he blew that up afterwords.


personally i would be pi$$ed if someone beat me in a pull for pride not to mention the ones for money.......:mad:

oh and idk if he place or not b/c i was not there......i don't think he did but i am not sure....

as for the hp i am assuming that is when he has all of the drugs and everything turned on high......but i know it is illegal to use them in the regulated ones

All this arguing about Dave's diesel, while interesting, has nothing to do with the original post. Now, what kind of tranny does this Dave run? That would go here.

Cummin, you will notice after a while that about 90% of the transmission topics go off on a tangent after about 5 posts. I think we expect it now for some reason...LOL

Trippin, there are just a few flaws in your tranny you wish to sell.


It is very easy in today’s marketplace to take a consumers money simply because they do not understand how a transmission works,so in their quest for transmission information most people believe they have to know the inner workings of a trans in order to ensure they got a good deal. In reality if a consumer knows which questions to ask there is no way company A, B or C can take advantage of them because they can do the math themselves.
First lets deal with this mis-conception that higher pressures equates to firmer shifts. Just because you have higher pressures does not mean you are going to get firmer shifts. If nothing in your separator plate has been altered then increasing your pressures can make it shift firmer. However, you can increase your pressures and have a softer shift if you reduce the orifice size in the separator plate. I can make a transmission shift firmer and leave the factory pressures alone by simply increasing the orifice size in the separator plate. My point is seat of the pants driving is not an accurate way to measure the transmissions capacity to hold a given amount of torque. It is easy to be deceived if your only gauge is seat of the pants driving.

Drilling a separator plate to give the illusion that your transmission can hold more torque based on the more aggressive shift feel costs nothing. Now if you owned a pressure gauge and tested the transmission pressures before it went to the transmission shop, and after it comes out of the transmission shop you would know what your gain was.

Let us start with the Transgo Shift Kit Modification so many have done including Juice. There are some really important questions you guys need to ask yourselves. What does this Transgo shift kit actually do for this transmissions VS what you think is does.

First thing to do is ignore the 600 hp labelling on the box when you get it.

Why do you guys think they are being put in? I can tell you from the transmission’s point of view what it does not do.

does not raise mainline pressure,
does not add extra clutches
does not make or have bigger pistons.
These are all the things needed for the transmisson to handle a given amount of torque . So one can surmise it was installed to improve shift feel.

Now hear me out: some of you builders out there may already know this so bear with me as I break it down. The laws of physics are absolute. No amount of sales jargon will change these facts. Surface area times pressure equals force.

I know this is the opposite of claims being made in the after market transmission industry today. I know I am probably going to piss off a lot of the after market by telling you guys this but I have a knack for pissing people off. They can get over it or they can try to disprove the laws of physics that govern this transmission.

For example if a transmission holds 400 hp before you installed your shift kit, it would hold about 395 hp after you install your shift kit Remember the law you guys, from that force you must subtract the release spring tension hence the lowered holding capacity.

Let us use a hypothetical number for example, if you have 1000 lbs of apply force and you have a set of springs that create 100 lbs of force from the opposite direction, you would now have 900 lbs of apply force holding your clutches from slipping .

If you changed out your springs to have 200 lbs of force from the opposite direction you would have 800 lbs of apply force holding your clutches from slipping and so on.

Transmission technicians that have already installed the Transgo shift kits in the Allison transmissions already know this but the average consumer may not.

This kit if installed according to the instructions replaces the OEM C2 clutch piston springs and installs stronger return springs, In other words your C2 clutch pack has less holding force than you originally started with. A lot of transmission shops do not have the in house resources necessary to test every product they buy to the extent that we can, so they must assume the manufacturers have done the appropriate testing ahead of time.

Will the Transgo shift kit make your transmission more durable and give you a better shift feel? , The answer is yes.

Now you guys must really think I am nuts because I just spent a great deal of time telling you the exact opposite. The transmissions ability to hold torque is based on 2 very simple laws of physics, Pascal’s law and the laws of friction. The Transgo shift kit actually reduces the ability to hold a given amount of torque but it increases your durability by modifying the trim valves.

In the earlier model Allison’s the OEM software will actually drop the pressure between shifts to make the shifts smoother. By dropping the pressures between shifts it makes the transmission shift smoother but it can hurt your clutches during the shift sequence. Therefore the Transgo shift kit will actually help your clutches live a little longer.

Stage 2 full boogie DTT Allison on MONDAY:ro)
Of course that comes after the 10+ hour drive, 2 packs of smokes, 20Gallons of diesel fuel, 9 cups of coffee, 1 stop for bladder and caloric intake!

Then a nice well deserved sleep in DTT's parking lot, listening to tunes and eating McDinner):h

Bill

The Transgo kit increased the apply area on the C2 piston by way of drilling a hole in it and nullifying C2 ballance piston. They went from 12 sq inches of apply to about 19 sq inches of apply. The springs in the C2 return were put in because of TCM complications. The shifts got too violent and TCM staying in fast learn could not handle the quality of the shift. Transgo even went further and increase apply area another 6 sq inches and the result was totaly violent. Diesel Tech played a big part in the TCM/Allison development. I agree with you that higher pressures are not the answer, it does( pressure) cover up a lot of holes for the time being. I like what you have done with your new idea as I have had similar thoughts over tha past year. I am not qualified to engineer these things, but I do have brain farts (some good and some bad). I am looking forward to installing the DTT upgrade.
mike

Trippin, there are just a few flaws in your tranny you wish to sell.


It is very easy in today’s marketplace to take a consumers money simply because they do not understand how a transmission works,so in their quest for transmission information most people believe they have to know the inner workings of a trans in order to ensure they got a good deal. In reality if a consumer knows which questions to ask there is no way company A, B or C can take advantage of them because they can do the math themselves.
First lets deal with this mis-conception that higher pressures equates to firmer shifts. Just because you have higher pressures does not mean you are going to get firmer shifts. If nothing in your separator plate has been altered then increasing your pressures can make it shift firmer. However, you can increase your pressures and have a softer shift if you reduce the orifice size in the separator plate. I can make a transmission shift firmer and leave the factory pressures alone by simply increasing the orifice size in the separator plate. My point is seat of the pants driving is not an accurate way to measure the transmissions capacity to hold a given amount of torque. It is easy to be deceived if your only gauge is seat of the pants driving.

Drilling a separator plate to give the illusion that your transmission can hold more torque based on the more aggressive shift feel costs nothing. Now if you owned a pressure gauge and tested the transmission pressures before it went to the transmission shop, and after it comes out of the transmission shop you would know what your gain was.

Let us start with the Transgo Shift Kit Modification so many have done including Juice. There are some really important questions you guys need to ask yourselves. What does this Transgo shift kit actually do for this transmissions VS what you think is does.

First thing to do is ignore the 600 hp labelling on the box when you get it.

Why do you guys think they are being put in? I can tell you from the transmission’s point of view what it does not do.

does not raise mainline pressure,
does not add extra clutches
does not make or have bigger pistons.
These are all the things needed for the transmisson to handle a given amount of torque . So one can surmise it was installed to improve shift feel.

Now hear me out: some of you builders out there may already know this so bear with me as I break it down. The laws of physics are absolute. No amount of sales jargon will change these facts. Surface area times pressure equals force.

I know this is the opposite of claims being made in the after market transmission industry today. I know I am probably going to piss off a lot of the after market by telling you guys this but I have a knack for pissing people off. They can get over it or they can try to disprove the laws of physics that govern this transmission.

For example if a transmission holds 400 hp before you installed your shift kit, it would hold about 395 hp after you install your shift kit Remember the law you guys, from that force you must subtract the release spring tension hence the lowered holding capacity.

Let us use a hypothetical number for example, if you have 1000 lbs of apply force and you have a set of springs that create 100 lbs of force from the opposite direction, you would now have 900 lbs of apply force holding your clutches from slipping .

If you changed out your springs to have 200 lbs of force from the opposite direction you would have 800 lbs of apply force holding your clutches from slipping and so on.

Transmission technicians that have already installed the Transgo shift kits in the Allison transmissions already know this but the average consumer may not.

This kit if installed according to the instructions replaces the OEM C2 clutch piston springs and installs stronger return springs, In other words your C2 clutch pack has less holding force than you originally started with. A lot of transmission shops do not have the in house resources necessary to test every product they buy to the extent that we can, so they must assume the manufacturers have done the appropriate testing ahead of time.

Will the Transgo shift kit make your transmission more durable and give you a better shift feel? , The answer is yes.

Now you guys must really think I am nuts because I just spent a great deal of time telling you the exact opposite. The transmissions ability to hold torque is based on 2 very simple laws of physics, Pascal’s law and the laws of friction. The Transgo shift kit actually reduces the ability to hold a given amount of torque but it increases your durability by modifying the trim valves.

In the earlier model Allison’s the OEM software will actually drop the pressure between shifts to make the shifts smoother. By dropping the pressures between shifts it makes the transmission shift smoother but it can hurt your clutches during the shift sequence. Therefore the Transgo shift kit will actually help your clutches live a little longer.
So I applied the two laws that rule the land of transmissions, then applied some electronics, described the proper way to deal with increasing clutch area......now where exactly did I go wrong? :D
How do you plan on dealing with the TCM trying to adapt back to a John Q. public type of shift?

Mike, it is quite possible you have a different shift kit from the one I have. In the transgo shift kit that Juice purchased the plugs for the C2 piston actually have a very tiny hole in them. Whether the hole is 35 thou or 100 thou, eventually the pressures will stabilise and you have less holding capacity because of the springs. The reason why you have a firmer shift is simply because the piston starts to move at a faster rate because of these orifices. We went through this when we were designing the C1 and C2 pistons. Mike call me , I am curious if the shift kit you got is different from the one Juice got.

Bill
I believe the holes in the C2 piston are .040. Should be the same as what Juice had. You have brought up an interesting thought on the apply and I will talk to you about that. I will call you monday as I don't have your # here at home.
mike

Bill
I believe the holes in the C2 piston are .040. Should be the same as what Juice had. You have brought up an interesting thought on the apply and I will talk to you about that. I will call you monday as I don't have your # here at home.
mikeHEY!

He's putting in my trans monday):h

HEY!

He's putting in my trans monday):h
NO WAY, he'll be on the phone ALL day w/ Mike.

Looks like Tuesday now Censored

NO WAY, he'll be on the phone ALL day w/ Mike.

Looks like Tuesday now Censored
:muahaha:

You guys definately have my attention. I think I am going to be glad that I waited. Time will tell. Please keep as much of the discussions on the boards as possible as a lot of us are learning a lot for your discussions. DTT has a lot of us sitting on the edges of our seats. Don't leave us hanging.

:exactly:

Bill, the statement you make about Transgo's kit reducing the ability to hold more torque is incorrect. You state because of the stronger C-2 return springs that torque capacity is reduced, this is not true. Either you don't comprehend or are purposely mis-leading, but any way here's why your are wrong. The OEM apply area on the C-2 piston is 19.92 "sq, but because C-2 oil is routed up to the balance piston it reduces the effective apply area by 7.97 "sg to 11.95"sq.
So now using 250 psi as a constant we have OEM apply =11.95 x 250=2,987.5# of apply force. Subtract 270# for the OEM return springs and now we have
OEM C-2 apply force =2,717.5
Transgo eliminates the C-2 balance oil by exhausting it thru the piston. Now with the Transgo kit we have 19.92"sq. 19.92 x 250 =4,980 # apply force. Subtract 450# for the stronger return springs and now we have
Transgo = 4,530 # C-2 apply force. Transgo increases apply force by 1,815 #s. Yes, if you increase piston area you should absolutly increase return spring proportionatly.

The Allison transmission is blessed with "back-fill oil", this keeps any air from entering the system. This oil is approx 2 psi, by venting this oil thru the (2) .040 orifice cup plugs instead of just plugging the holes, the air is eliminated and centrifuged oil cannot cause parasitic clutch drag. The C-1,C-3,C-4, and C-5 pistons all have these bleed holes. This does not make the clutch apply faster, in reality the piston moves slower.
Feed hole size: Feed hole size does not increase holding capacity once the clutch is applied. If there are no leaks in the circuit with flow/volume exceeding feed then once the clutch is applied feed hole size could be .050 or .500 and it just would not matter. Feed hole size (area) effects apply/release timing along with, clutch clearance, volume of circuit (CVI), oil pressure,return spring tension, friction capability of the clutch pack.
When the diameter of the apply piston is increased the the CVI is increased and the linear velocity of the piston is reduced. More so in the Allison than most transmissions clutch apply/release timing becomes very critical. The C-1 is a static clutch 1st thru 4th, releases in 5th and becomes a dynamic clutch on re-apply when making a 5th to 4th downshift. When increasing piston area is is necessary to change one or all of the other variables to maintain clean up-shifts and down-shifts with out cut-loose or bind-up. When Juice first posted his trans performance he stated " Downshift from 5th to 4th, bark the tires and go". Bark the tires on a 5-4? wet pavement, mega power or bind-up?
Trippin, perhaps you could enlighten us as to the parameters of reaction plate OAT and the effects of more vs. less. Hint: clutches and steels do not flex under load since they are being squeezed by flat surfaces, rather they distort when they are unable to dissipate heat quickly enough and retain high enough tempatures to actually change the molecular structure. You may want to check http://www.kolene.com/applications/sbn.asp as to this masking by coating. I'm sure the engineers at Hydramatic division of GM and the majority of performance tranny builders are not aware of this needless expense. Company A or B can use whatever equasion they choose to get their #'s about clutch capacity. This is the one I use: Md = rm x n x u x Fa
Md = transmittable torque
rm = mean radius ( radius to ID of facing + radius to OD of facing) divided by 2
n = number of facings
u = coefficient of friction
Fa = clamp load (apply pressure)
by increasing any of the above we can increase the capacity of the clutch pack. That is why I question the expense of boring a case and mfg. pistons to gain approx 4 "sq in the C-3/C-4 clutch packs. There are a lot more cost effective ways to skin that cat without entering the bind-up zone.

4th step to Allison Nirvana : The clutch area of a torque converter has absolutly nothing to do with "torque multiplication". "Allison Nirvana" may become "Allison Nightmare" if design changes for firmer shifts are made at the sacrifice of durability and drivability.
smoop

Trippin, perhaps you could enlighten us as to the parameters of reaction plate OAT and the effects of more vs. less. Hint: clutches and steels do not flex under load since they are being squeezed by flat surfaces, rather they distort when they are unable to dissipate heat quickly enough and retain high enough tempatures to actually change the molecular structure.
Are thinner steels and clutches more susceptible to distortion?

Are thinner steels and clutches more susceptible to distortion?
Yes.
Now a new debate enters the equation. Will the additional clutches dissipate the heat as well as the stock clutches with thicker lining and thicker steels? GM found that they didn't in the 700 TH and 4L60E. They went to a thicker steel in the 3-4 clutch. If we can keep the heat in check on the thinner clutches we are ok, but if we can't, they will distort quicker and lose longevety quicker than thicker clutches. One way to do that is with higher pressures for more clamping force as ATS has done. Guy, you remember your C4 clutches that were stock and pretty badly burned probably before the ATS update (C4 was not addressed at that time) and they held pretty damn good. One reason is the high pressure and the other is the Borg Warner lining. I believe your C4s were burnt prior to the ATS update.
mike

I'm kinda hard on second gear.:muahaha:

Guy,

I will assume this question is asked seeking info and not to solicit a particular
response. The reaction plate begins to deform when it absorbs more energy (heat) than it can dissipate thru cooling. The cooling has to be uniform or deformation will occur if there is a substancial variance in tempature. This varies with the method that fluid is delivered for the cooling. A thinner plate would retain uniform shape if it is cooled by pressurized fluid, uniformly delivered as opposed to a thicker plate depending upon erratic splash. As with anything extremes in either direction produced questionable results. Reaction plate oat (over all thickness) parameters change with diameters. For this discussion we will stay within the accepted Auto transmissions we are dealing with. From observations in the real world I would not go below .059 oat. This figure is well below our Allison reaction plates. When you add more frictions you add capacity there by lowering tempature. Example: your OEM torque converter had a single friction bonded to a piston
.180 thick, you now have 3 frictions bonded to .075 plates. Which do you perfer?
There are many more variables to arrive at the correct answer, but after observing auto trans clutch packs 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, for 40 years sometimesyou just know what will work and what won't.
smoop

Guy,

I will assume this question is asked seeking info and not to solicit a particular
response. The reaction plate begins to deform when it absorbs more energy (heat) than it can dissipate thru cooling. The cooling has to be uniform or deformation will occur if there is a substancial variance in tempature. This varies with the method that fluid is delivered for the cooling. A thinner plate would retain uniform shape if it is cooled by pressurized fluid, uniformly delivered as opposed to a thicker plate depending upon erratic splash. As with anything extremes in either direction produced questionable results. Reaction plate oat (over all thickness) parameters change with diameters. For this discussion we will stay within the accepted Auto transmissions we are dealing with. From observations in the real world I would not go below .059 oat. This figure is well below our Allison reaction plates. When you add more frictions you add capacity there by lowering tempature. Example: your OEM torque converter had a single friction bonded to a piston
.180 thick, you now have 3 frictions bonded to .075 plates. Which do you perfer?
There are many more variables to arrive at the correct answer, but after observing auto trans clutch packs 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, for 40 years sometimesyou just know what will work and what won't.
smoop
Thanks Smoop,
I certainly appreciate your point of view and experience.

Guy

Bill or anyone else that knows about DTT(or if anyone else wants to add thier thoughts as well) Forgive me if I havent seen the info already listed somewere......

Ultimate holding capacity is important but we arnt just running our trucks on a dyno seeing what #'s we can put down, we are out there driving these things. What if anything are you doing to the speed of the shift? Up and down.

:rockit:What Philip said. I would like to know this also.

just jumping in to follow

is anyone else confused here?

is anyone else confused here?
I was born confused, but as I get older I get smarter…. I think :lol:

Anybody what to chime in on who does what to the shift, why they think its the way to go, ect.?

Hello? Anyone there? Did this thread die? Why is no one responding?

**bmp, bmp, bmp**...is this thing on?:confused: Stefan, Bill, Smoop, anyone.

Hey, we had more important things to do then debate on the web this weekend. Smoop was busy playing "host" all weekend.

Great time at Suncoast !!!!

btw sorry for the off topic about the dave's diesel truck!:rant: he is runs the newest BD performance trans. don't think he has ever had a problem with the drive train in anyway shape or form......just motor problem:lol: ):h

I know Smoop has been busy this weekend. I was really hoping for a response from any of the tranny guys about how they are planning on controlling the shift.(a la co-pilot) It seems that the something like that might be the way to go...maybe an improvement on the co-pilot. But maybe another way would be better?:confused:

I have a co-pilot that I may put on top of my SC L IV for some playing....

Eric,
Let us know how the Co-Pilot plays with the SunCoast, I'm thinking of trying that too.
Josh

I have a co-pilot that I may put on top of my SC L IV for some playing....
I'm thinking about the co-pilot with the SC L III. I'm very interested in what you find. I wonder if it would help with the VA box?

I'm thinking about the co-pilot with the SC L III. I'm very interested in what you find. I wonder if it would help with the VA box?Thats exactly what i wanna find out:D