I done a bunch of testing since the tranny overhaul with a couple different tunes so i thought I'd share my new experiences with you all. I have a relatively new Hot juice with attitude and now that I can run it cranked up more the time I don't like it much because of the engine temp turn on. While it's waiting for the engine temp the tranny wants to know where the power is. It runs great after that. The juice lays down alright #s on the dyno, but it seems like the old one was stronger.
i also got a chance to test the VA200++ That's a great box for dyno #s but that's about it. I took it for a drive and I couldn't believe how choppy it was under acceleration. It was real strong off the line, but around the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts it gets hairy, almost like it's running full bore and cutting out before. I heard about his from a couple other guys, but it was worse than I anticipated....I'll stick with the Juice for now, but I'm defiantly going to invest in a custom PCM...

Ox

The VA doesn't get along with the Allison unless it is an ATS built Allison. Brandon's Suncoast handles it well, but mine does not. Not the boxes fault.

The 4.81 Hot OJ consistently hits 450+ non corrected and performs best of any that I have tested...

LOL... hey John, DTT's allison plays very well with the VA Box.

"This program was custom tuned in house on my Superflow SF 840 Chassis dyno. It produced 220 additional RWHP which is the strongest single box (regardless of any claims/ratings) that I have tested. There is no added rail pressure with this program. There is no transmission protect on this unit as it is for competition only. Driveability is excellent with great pedal response and only moderate smoke, but the cruise control may be a bit touchy." - JK(from KennedyDiesel.com)

" The VA doesn't get along with the Allison unless it is an ATS built Allison. Brandon's Suncoast handles it well, but mine does not. Not the boxes fault." - Kennedy(from earlier post in this thread)


HMMMMM..........

What were the numbers on the VA and the Mustang?

"This program was custom tuned in house on my Superflow SF 840 Chassis dyno. It produced 220 additional RWHP which is the strongest single box (regardless of any claims/ratings) that I have tested. There is no added rail pressure with this program. There is no transmission protect on this unit as it is for competition only. Driveability is excellent with great pedal response and only moderate smoke, but the cruise control may be a bit touchy." - JK(from KennedyDiesel.com)

" The VA doesn't get along with the Allison unless it is an ATS built Allison. Brandon's Suncoast handles it well, but mine does not. Not the boxes fault." - Kennedy(from earlier post in this thread)


HMMMMM..........

Blue,

The big VA driveability is excellent. No excessive rattle or surging and smoke management is easy to do with it. Only under a full throttle pass will it blow through the converter and hang up the shifts a bit. That is where the extra pressure of the ATS or having a different TCM helps.

I think the quotes above are being taken out of context and John has always been honest on what that box does and does not do. I have zero complaints about its street manners.

I have the VA box in my truck with just the transgo kit ( for now) and it blows right through my converter... stock converter. Thats a know brainer. I have put my VA on Tomacs ATS truck and it shifted awesome. I think it benifits from the co-pilot. Does that mean the box is junk? Not to me, I run it as a daily driven program and its is very smooth and responsive on my truck. Is it the best? Maybe not, but its not as bad as most make it sound.

Brandon,

I am not sure that I can agree with it blowing thru the converter..........
Is the rev limiter in the Stock ECM causing the problem or is it something else.......in the VA program.........and why does the TCM make a difference........

I know I ran the TCM in WI and it did help some but there are a few trade-off with it as well.

I will see If I can snap shot the VA under a full throttle run and get some info on what the tranny is actually doing.........because even on the Mustang dyno it would sputter at around 3200 rpm's.

Dipper,

IIRC the Juice and the VA put down low numbers on OX's truck........he is pulling fuel through the stock filter and a MEGA filter with NO LIFT PUMP........all his numbers were lower than expected.........in fact his best HOT OJ/Level 5 number was around 395HP and 790TQ and the VA came in around 418HP and I can't remember the TQ.........his truck fell off at around 2700-2800 rpms and the TECH II showed a decline in Rail Pressure at the time the truck started to fall off.

Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif NY

I'm not going to discuss dyno numbers but the VA just didn't perform well for me either. Driveabiliity on it was horrendous. John's HD TCM made it shift better, but it was still quirky at times. I've still got it and hope to test it on an ATS equipped truck in a couple weeks just out of curiosity (if I don't sell it first). Hopefully it performs well on the ATS equipped truck so I have a market to sell it. I certainly wouldn't sell it to anyone with a Suncoast transmission in good faith without warning them that they probably won't like it first.

I would have liked to test it more, but it only stayed on my truck for a week. Simply couldn't deal with the driveability issues. Finally got the Extreme and had absolutely no desire to go back to the VA box. Had I not made the decision to buy a new truck, I would have definitely continued testing of the VA and Extreme for some back to back dyno numbers. I have a feeling I know which would have performed better.

I'm not biased about anything for any reason. I do business with a lot of the vendors on the board and as a staff member I don't feel that having a one-way mind benefits the board in any way. I just call it as it is with any product I buy and use. It's my opinion and evaluation of the product. I simply couldn't find a good thing about the VA box. I don't think that should necessarily reflect directly on John, but something there just isn't right. I certainly wouldn't be so bold as to say that it's our transmissions (plural), but the combination of the Suncoast transmission (most of them anyway) and the VA box of John's simply doesn't work.

Brandon,

I am not sure that I can agree with it blowing thru the converter..........
Is the rev limiter in the Stock ECM causing the problem or is it something else.......in the VA program.........and why does the TCM make a difference........

I know I ran the TCM in WI and it did help some but there are a few trade-off with it as well.

I will see If I can snap shot the VA under a full throttle run and get some info on what the tranny is actually doing.........because even on the Mustang dyno it would sputter at around 3200 rpm's.

Dipper,

IIRC the Juice and the VA put down low numbers on OX's truck........he is pulling fuel through the stock filter and a MEGA filter with NO LIFT PUMP........all his numbers were lower than expected.........in fact his best HOT OJ/Level 5 number was around 395HP and 790TQ and the VA came in around 418HP and I can't remember the TQ.........his truck fell off at around 2700-2800 rpms and the TECH II showed a decline in Rail Pressure at the time the truck started to fall off.

Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif NY

Tony,

I have a Tech II and the plotting software. I have ran snapshots on the big VA many times and plotted it. I can definitely tell you that the box can waste a converter. I have compared it to the Juice, the Quad/Juice stack, with and without the TCM. The extra pressure of the ATS I think makes a big difference. Could the shift point be worked on it to work better on all trucks? Probably but nobody seems to know what VA is going to do with the tune.

Anyway, I just wanted to chime about the driveability thing because the big VA does not have the timing rattle and surge that you hate so much. Seems like everybody wants to harpoon folks around here lately. :(

Brandon,

It's not harpoon time, I stated in the past the VA had good power and manners, in fact I ran it to and from Wi, it's not about John or harpooning him, it's about the performance of the product.......or expectation that it will do what is advertised.

The Quad/Juice stack made good power as well........it was just noisy, did it go good, sure, but again it's not harpooning it, it is the performance of the product overall........

I am sure that your truck makes as much or MORE HP/TQ with the stack as the VA does........so is the Quad rev limiter doing something as it alters the ECM software TCM software.........If your truck runs as well in the 1/4 with a stack as the VA does then why not blow through the TC with your stack????

Not trying to argue but looking for an answer..........

or is it the Co-Pilot locking the TC down or the 350 psi line pressure in the ATS making the difference..
I called John the day I got the VA box back and questioned the shifting.........I had numerous phone calls and think it has to do with the programming in the VA............JMHO

Will I run it at the track, maybe.........like sp33d said if it works great on an ATS transmission then it should work on a Suncoast IMHO.........my tranny is not a stage IV, but JK has a STAGE 5 and it gives him fits.........so I have no answers.

T;) NY

I agree with Brandon about the drivability....I had no problems and it does seem very linear. The shifting is a problem on my truck, but a friends Co-Pilot equipped truck works real nice.

sp33d, you only had the box on your truck for a week?....but you are here now posting your results? Seems kind of weird....don't ya think? Even at that, the lower setting on the box with injectors would give you great power and no shifting quirks?.....did you try that?....just seems weird to me the way you describe your circumstances.

I don't think pressure in the trans has any effect on the shifting...the Allison would correct it in time anyway. The Co-Pilot on the other hand, is programmed to knock off a shift at a certain time and take a certain amount of time to do it.....which obviously is quicker than a stock computered Allison.

I can't explain why Brandon's doesn't do it though....although he has a 2wd....dunno, maybe?

Brandon,

It's not harpoon time, I stated in the past the VA had good power and manners, in fact I ran it to and from Wi, it's not about John or harpooning him, it's about the performance of the product.......or expectation that it will do what is advertised.

The Quad/Juice stack made good power as well........it was just noisy, did it go good, sure, but again it's not harpooning it, it is the performance of the product overall........

I am sure that your truck makes as much or MORE HP/TQ with the stack as the VA does........so is the Quad rev limiter doing something as it alters the ECM software TCM software.........If your truck runs as well in the 1/4 with a stack as the VA does then why not blow through the TC with your stack????

Not trying to argue but looking for an answer..........

or is it the Co-Pilot locking the TC down or the 350 psi line pressure in the ATS making the difference..
I called John the day I got the VA box back and questioned the shifting.........I had numerous phone calls and think it has to do with the programming in the VA............JMHO

Will I run it at the track, maybe.........like sp33d said if it works great on an ATS transmission then it should work on a Suncoast IMHO.........my tranny is not a stage IV, but JK has a STAGE 5 and it gives him fits.........so I have no answers.

T;) NY

Tony,

I was not calling you out on the harpooning, it just seems that there are more threads I am reading with this sort of stuff going on.

The Quad/HJ and the VA plot very similar on TC behavior on my truck. Mine does manage to shift through on both setups and that seems to be different than most other trucks. The extra RPMs on the Quad/HJ stack seems to help and it does make more power. No comparison on rattle and surge though.

I don't have all the answers either but I do know I will keep trying stuff. ;)

I didn't think I was being called out, we discussed this subject in Wi........:D

I too was looking for answers then as we are now........

I am going to have my VA at the next dyno day in MA in two weeks,

I know someone with a Suncoast 5 and a VA will be there to test this one I have back to back with there's UN-STACKED.

I will see if a 200++++ tune exists that shifts good, if so I will share my findings..........

T:cool: NY

I put 500 miles on the VA over the course of a week. That was all I needed to determine whether or not I wanted to drive it daily. I didn't see it improving. I did put the box on several other times for shorter periods to test with John's TCM and on some other occasions, but it just never shifted well. Truth be told I probably accumulated over a week of time with the box, but have no idea how many hours. Can I make a fair assessment? I don't know. I certainly would have liked to test it longer too, but didn't get the chance. I posted my results based on the testing I could do on it. If it wasn't enough for you or any one else that reads the post, they can disregard it.

So yes, I am posting my results for the week that I tested it. I couldn't see it getting better over time. No matter what I tried it shifted horribly. I posted the amount of time that I tested it so that others reading could judge for themselves whether they wanted to trust my opinion. It really doesn't affect me whether someone likes my results or not. And I never claimed it was the results that everyone else had. It seems that as many are having problems with it as aren't, and the problems are identical for all of them. No reason for me to get in a pissing match. It was my results and each person that reads them can make their own decision on them. I would have liked to test it more, but the truck is now gone and I have no need for it.

It did perform well on lower settings with the injectors. Probably would have performed well w/o the injectors too. But, I didn't buy a 200+hp rated box to run it on the lower settings! :)

I am curious to know what transmission upgrades you've got Dipper? Just trying to figure out myself why it acts the way it does on some trucks.

FWIW, I don't think any of us that are having problems with the VA box are trying to tear it down. I know a few of you that do like it think we are, but we aren't. We're simply stating our problems with it, like has been done with every other tune out there. I had to get four Quad programs sent before it finally worked. Juice failed twice.

I also realize it works well on other trucks. Wish it did on mine as it IS a strong running box. I think most of us would like to know what is causing the problem.

Brandon, hope to see the VA in action in Florida next month!

Didn't expect all that....wasn't personal(initially)..I just said the circumstances seem weird.....and I never said you weren't being honest.


I posted above about the box not agreeing with my trans....it was actually the same one you are responding to now.....guess you missed it.
What circumstances are you referring to?

Nope, didn't miss that you were having problems with the VA box at all... What I did miss, and still fail to see, was an answer to my question. What transmission are you running? You obviously don't have to answer if you don't want. I would just like to know as it seems to be isolated to Suncoast transmission, and only some of them. There has to be something different between the ones that work and the ones that don't. This is more to help those that want to use the box in the future, and because I like knowing these things.

Hopefully none of my comments have been taken personally as they aren't meant that way. I am trying to learn here about why the box made the truck shift so badly. Nothing more or less. My decision to post in this thread was simply to reinforce BlueOx's post. Maybe it's not my position to post on it anymore since I no longer have the truck and will never be able to use the VA box again.

So many attitudes so little time. I thought the purpose of us talking about this stuff was to help come up with solutions to issues for the stuff we enjoy. (i.e. DURAMAX and in this case VA++)

I have been running with full ATS & copilot. It ran and hit shifts right on the money for 2-3 days. After the alli learning curve kicked in it was missing the shifts and defueling aroung 3200 rpm on some shifts, especially the ones with loss of traction. No other drivabilty issues that I don't cause myself. Would custom TCM programming be advantageous or does the defuel RPM need to be increased? Or am I all wet? Either way this box is strong and I would like to come up with some solutions to work through this issue. I will try clearing the TAP cells next and upgrading my GM TCM program.

There is NO TCM flash to upgrade out of factory specs. Some have opted to run a different Allison series TCM but this will have many quirks.I don't think anyone will be hacking the TCM any time soon.


I do believe the concession was it is Rev limiter problems and this cannot be addressed with Plug and Play that I know off.

I haven't plugged one in on my truck so I can't comment further but I have ridden in a couple that were equipped with the box.

I don't seem to have the shifting issues with the big VA that some have. My box was not programmed by J/K, I don't know if this makes any difference. I plan on doing some testing in the near future and will post the results, good or bad. I too am looking for driveability and performance, the driveability seems fine, but if I can get better gains with something else I will.

Jim,

Run the BOX UN-STACKED..........give it a few days and miles to adjust to the lesser HP from the stack.........then see how it shifts..........I have a feeling you may change your mind on the characteristics of your VA........

Anyway, mine is available for you to test.........back to back..........we will see what differences there are if any........

Los Lobos, interesting that your ATS liked it at first, now it has the 3200 rpm stumble or whatever you are calling it..........

Sits right on that limiter and bucks.........same on my truck and Ox's on the dyno as well...........

Waiting for a fix.........or I have another paperweight for my desk.

T:cool: NY

"This program was custom tuned in house on my Superflow SF 840 Chassis dyno. It produced 220 additional RWHP which is the strongest single box (regardless of any claims/ratings) that I have tested. There is no added rail pressure with this program. There is no transmission protect on this unit as it is for competition only. Driveability is excellent with great pedal response and only moderate smoke, but the cruise control may be a bit touchy." - JK(from KennedyDiesel.com)

" The VA doesn't get along with the Allison unless it is an ATS built Allison. Brandon's Suncoast handles it well, but mine does not. Not the boxes fault." - Kennedy(from earlier post in this thread)


HMMMMM..........
Yep, you got it. This was written when I had the ATS transmission installed...

Ther is some THEORY that this may be a result of the Transgo valves and how they make the shift.

Now you guys remember a little comment how someone else's truck would hang at 3500RPM? His didn't babble as it had extended RPM's but it paused. I'll give you a hint, Mtomac made the observation while riding shotgun...

Things could have been done differently and changed here or there to possibly make the box perform better. Upping the rev limiter with say the Quad box may have helped, never tried it. Any number of stacks/combos/twists/turns could have made the box perform better. However, I had NO reason to continue the testing once the TTS Extreme arrived. It simply wasn't a comparison. I *would* have tested the box more this year had I kept the old truck.

This is definitely an odd box. John, you say there is theory that it's the transgo shift valves causing this? I believe Brandon has these same shift valves (correct me if I'm wrong). What would make his different? I really am interested to find out why it works on Brandon's. The ATS camp seems to do fine with the box, although one of the ATS equipped posts would indicate that if ran long enough for the Allison to relearn, it too has the same characteristics. This tells me that something the copilot is doing is temporarily allowing the box to do it's job.

Jim659, I'm not sure you have the same box that is being discussed. I'll bet you have one of the original VA boxes. I don't believe you can buy the box from anyone from John at this point, though this may not be accurate...

I still have all levels of the VA stuff for sale, and will continue to do so. In fact they ship a "lesser" tune as one of their release versions where there is a better file available. There are multiple levels of shift fueling available on the big file, but none seem to help.

I'll add further to this: The HJAT5 will have a noticeable pause at the same point at which the VA hits the RPM limit. This I believe, is because the HJAT does not fuel hard in the upper RPM's and it just patiently waits for the signal that the shift has been accomplished.

As for the Transgo valves, yes Brandon's truck challenges this theory...

interesting reading,but please explain the blow through the tq con bit,my impression is it is slipping,from what i know of a triple lock if its slips once it is done is this not correct?

Jess, not blowing through the lock up, just the fluid coupleing.

Look I'm not saying this box is a useless POS, just sharing my experience with it. What I gather now is that unless you have a Co-pilot it's pretty much no good for you. It is nice and quiet and the smoke is low, but I have a different view on drivability. To me how it performs is part of the factor not just how it sounds and smokes. Even easing into it, it was rough, at WOT it was just ridiculous.
I made those quotes because it seemed funny to me that come time to sell it's great for everyone. Like it says it's not bad on the Dyno. When the rubber meets the road the story changes.
Brandon, I didn't take anything out of context and I'm not harpooning anyone...I've got Kennedy stuff on my truck too, and if you remember I solved the Megafilter air problem for him on my dime as well. I don't understand the problem with the truth around here sometimes. Is what I said about it BS? Obviously not...others have had the same experience I did...
I hope most took this as observations, not gospel...

Ox

Things could have been done differently and changed here or there to possibly make the box perform better. Upping the rev limiter with say the Quad box may have helped, never tried it. Any number of stacks/combos/twists/turns could have made the box perform better. However, I had NO reason to continue the testing once the TTS Extreme arrived. It simply wasn't a comparison. I *would* have tested the box more this year had I kept the old truck.

This is definitely an odd box. John, you say there is theory that it's the transgo shift valves causing this? I believe Brandon has these same shift valves (correct me if I'm wrong). What would make his different? I really am interested to find out why it works on Brandon's. The ATS camp seems to do fine with the box, although one of the ATS equipped posts would indicate that if ran long enough for the Allison to relearn, it too has the same characteristics. This tells me that something the copilot is doing is temporarily allowing the box to do it's job.

Jim659, I'm not sure you have the same box that is being discussed. I'll bet you have one of the original VA boxes. I don't believe you can buy the box from anyone from John at this point, though this may not be accurate... sp33d, I have the big VA, I used to have the 230 tune but had it reprogrammed by Presicion Diesel here on LI, they have an inhouse programmer, JK knows danny over there too. I can't say my shifts are perfect, but nothing like some guys are complaining about. Tony, I ran the VA without the stack for 5000 miles. I'll take out the stack anyway and run it solo for the next two weeks. I know the 230 was horrible, but I only ran that on my stock Ally, the problem could be there and I just have nothing to compare it to, who knows?:confused:

sp33d, I have the big VA, I used to have the 230 tune but had it reprogrammed by Presicion Diesel here on LI, they have an inhouse programmer, JK knows danny over there too. I can't say my shifts are perfect, but nothing like some guys are complaining about. Tony, I ran the VA without the stack for 5000 miles. I'll take out the stack anyway and run it solo for the next two weeks. I know the 230 was horrible, but I only ran that on my stock Ally, the problem could be there and I just have nothing to compare it to, who knows?:confused:

Let us know the results. You've got the same trans that seems to be having the problems.

Jess, not blowing through the lock up, just the fluid coupleing.
Just so I understand stuff..........

1-2 shift....second gear TC lock-up at 22mph ?????, TC now locked.......does it or does it not stay locked on the 2-3, 3-4, 4-5 shift.........if so then throw that theory out the window as far as fluid coupling.

If it un-locks the TC on everyshift upshift after 2nd gear lock-up and re-applies then I might be inclined to see merit in that fluid coupling could causing it, however my other stacks and programs seem to do just fine...........???????

I await an answer on Allison function under full throttle T/H mode.

T:) NY

Just another point of reference:

I have the ATS with Co-Pilot and have run nothing but the VA200+ for the past 20,000+ miles. Drives and shifts great. No issues with drivability whatsoever, and very good power. I do keep the Co-Pilot really cranked up (6 main, 4 sub) even in rush hour traffic. Set it and forget it. Street, Strip, or towing, it is always set the same. I am sure the Allison is done learning.

Tony, tcc unlocks during shifts. I believe it stays locked on the 4-5 only

Ok, so what does the co-pilot do ??????? force a TC lockup and keep it locked under all shifts ??????

T;) NY

uhh...mine locks up in 2nd in T/H...

I have the ATS torque controller on my cummins, also ATS stage v tranny, I know they are totaly different, but I can set the torque coverter to lock up as low as 12mph, and it stays locked until I disengage it, about 55mph. The shifts are fast and clean, with all boxes and stacks, I know it does'nt mean anything, just talking out loud.:confused:

to the best of my knowledge, the copilot keeps the converter locked during shifts.

also keeps it locked until it shifts to first, regardless of conditions. first gear, tcc is hydraulically impossible.

Ox, in T/H, everybody's will

Ok,

Then the TC is told to lock under a certain set of conditions, if those conditions are not for some reason being met, then what..........:confused:

All I am saying is if it is HP/TQ that is creaming the TC then why do the big stacks or big programs not have the same issue ???? :rolleyes:

I ran a Quad/OJ stack and had great shifts, as well as the current Xtreme..........both making as much or more.........HP/TQ.......

So the argument is my SC-Triple Disk Converter is getting creamed by the VA and not the previous Stack or my current Xtreme.........or my A-B shift solenoids are not working correctly, but only with the VA...........

I do not know enough about the transmission workings to make a technical post, but I do know my truck and I do know my transmission having over 10K miles on it in 6 months of driving to know how it should shift, especially at the track.

So I guess I won't get the answer because the answer is not known...........:(

Ox, in T/H, everybody's will


that was my point.... :D

uhh...mine locks up in 2nd in T/H...What speed will it unlock at? I run mine on the street locked when I'm playing with another truck or car, and unlock it manually( force of habit from the ATS controller) will it unlock by itself?