Anyone have good or bad info about these or Yank in general?
http://www.converter.cc/newproducts.htm

I do not like custom machined stators unless I know who did it and exactly what they machined off it. I also don't like any rebuilder getting into the game this late and learning on my truck. The big boys are on the cutting edge technology wise and are thinking of and doing things that the late guys never dreamed of. Some of the new stuff you read about is 3 years old. Do not buy yesterdays technology. Seems everyone wants a piece of the cake but does not want to put up the money and work for it.
mike

Mike, thanks for bursting my bubble. I called Joe today and told him to cancel my converter cause I was gonna Yank one off the shelf.. He told me to quick Yank-in his chain.

I do not like custom machined stators unless I know who did it and exactly what they machined off it. I also don't like any rebuilder getting into the game this late and learning on my truck. The big boys are on the cutting edge technology wise and are thinking of and doing things that the late guys never dreamed of. Some of the new stuff you read about is 3 years old. Do not buy yesterdays technology. Seems everyone wants a piece of the cake but does not want to put up the money and work for it.
mike

this reminds me of a recently offered multi-disc converter

I ran a Yank convertor in my Impala SS and I must say it was an excellent convertor. Just my opinion.

Sounds like the name of a "guy" magazine if you ask me.

Tom :eek:












Oh come on, you were all thinkin it, I just said it.

Silverado Man, what sold you on it? I didnt relize you had one of those in your SS... I know that car was pretty much no expense spared for you.

Sounds like the name of a "guy" magazine if you ask me.

Tom :eek:












Oh come on, you were all thinkin it, I just said it.
):h

this reminds me of a recently offered multi-disc converterYou are exactly right on Mike. Except that "recently offered multi-disc converter" ( that is mfg by PI ) hasn't any mods unless you define bending the pump vanes slightly positive a mod (very common simple operation), we do it a lot, but we also go to the trouble to braze AFTER the bending so the impeller vanes will not return to the original angle. The stator in the "recently offered multi-disc" is bone stock OEM. So all that "extra torque" these guys are feeling in the seat of their pants is actually that extra $200-300 they spent for nothing sliding up between their cheeks. Is it red? no Is it purple? no Is it grey? no Is it black?????
http://dieselplace.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=447238
Who said that?
Smoop;)

You are exactly right on Mike. Except that "recently offered multi-disc converter" ( that is mfg by PI ) hasn't any mods unless you define bending the pump vanes slightly positive a mod (very common simple operation), we do it a lot, but we also go to the trouble to braze AFTER the bending so the impeller vanes will not return to the original angle. The stator in the "recently offered multi-disc" is bone stock OEM. So all that "extra torque" these guys are feeling in the seat of their pants is actually that extra $200-300 they spent for nothing sliding up between their cheeks. Is it red? no Is it purple? no Is it grey? no Is it black?????
http://dieselplace.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=447238
Who said that?
Smoop;)
Well I guess I'll address this as I am one of those guys that spent the extra $200-300 and did a back to back comparison. Frankly the only thing I feel after reading your statement Smoop, is the smoke your still trying to blow up everyone elses cheeks. It must be pretty frustrating to say the least, to have someone outside the converter/transmission industry come in and design a better product, than your own.
I hear from many people about what a great guy you are .....but the impression I get from reading some of your posts is quite the opposite.

That's going to leave a mark!!!

I'll be serious here for a bit. (yeah, I know, it's a stretch.....)

With the different companies coming out with their versions of the single- and triple-lock converters, what should we non-professionals be looking for when choosing what one to install in our trucks?
As another member wrote in another thread, "converter design is more confusing to me than the internals of a transmission". I agree...
It would really suck to spend $1100 on a piece of garbage.

Thought this may be a valid point...

Tom

Tom, next time your over for beer, we'll discuss converters...we'll be drunk before it makes any sense

Trippin,

The converter we speak of is mfg by Precision Ind. for another vender.
I just called it like it is, if that offends you I can't be responsible. Sorry, The truth is the truth. If you want pics I could do that. I am not trying to stir anything I just think the consumer has the right to know facts. Blowing smoke? You are looking in the wrong direction. Nothing negative about the way it works, it just isn't anything more than what it is.
Smoop,:p

No one outside of the converter industry has designed a better one yet. Just as good? Maybe, but not better. I don't have to blow the smoke cause I can back it up. And I am not frustrated and I am a nice guy--------I think---- anyway Eric told that one time.
Smoop

My Spidey Sences R Tinglin...this Is About To Get Good. Letr Rip Boys!

I feel after reading your statement Smoop, is the smoke your still trying to blow up everyone elses cheeks. It must be pretty frustrating to say the least, to have someone outside the converter/transmission industry come in and design a better product, than your own.

):h As The Stator Turns):h

Stay Tuned!):h

But doesn't Precision make more triple disc converters than any other company? And haven't they been making performance torque converters longer that any other company? I have one of the "mystery triple discs". I drove a truck with your converter first Smoop, and I am glad I went with "mystery triple disc". On another note, isn't it funny on how your single disc has "evolved" over time to look very very similiar to the "mystery company's" single disc? Just something to think about.

I don't know how many converters Precision makes ( and don't really care)
Sun Coast Produces in excess of 6000 converters per year and has been since 1989.
No, Precision has not been making "performance" converters longer than any other mfg. I would have to guess ATI or B&M, not sure. I think PI was started in 1990, Terry would have to say for sure. Since there is very little difference between the SC 1050-3D and the "mystery triple as far as pump, turbine, and stator any difference you "felt" would have to be dillusional. The Sun Coast single disc converter was produced in 2001 with a solid billet cover. What's similiar about a ring welded on the cover in 2003 and a solid billet? Just something to think about.
History:
To my knowledge Precision Ind. was the first aftermarket converter mfg to produce a multi disc converter. ( not the square tab guys). We never claimed to have invented the multi-disc. I just have some different thoughts about how to get it done.
Smoop

Trippin,
Nothing negative about the way it works, it just isn't anything more than what it is.
Smoop,:p
Yet in the previous post you said "the additional torque we are feeling is the extra $200-$300" we spent and nothing to do with the design.
Now, you say "nothing negative about the way it works". Which is it?
I'm not sure if your acknowledging the fact that this modifed stator design works for our trucks and are just being critical of the manufacturing process or if you disagree with the design and are claiming it doesn't work.

Just so we are clear, I'm not the type to defend a previous purchase, I'm always on the look out for superior parts for my truck.
Do you have something that is better?
My credit card awaits. :cool:

Well. I guess it is time for an honest converter test in my truck. I have a converter in stock from all the companys so there will be no possible ringers. I will not test any single plates. This will take time. How many of you guys will believe my findings? I already know tomac won't.):h

mike

I await the results...........

How about some track tiimes too..........

Smoop

Think maybe you went too far with your criticism of the TTS converter. Steve has never done this to your product. The TTS converter installed in Guys truck was done without his knowledge. Guys was running an ATS. I got a phone call the next day from Guy wanting to know what changed. He could feel the difference. I trust Guys ability to give me facts. I also feel the difference. There is nothing wrong with Suncoast converters, I sell them, they are great. I think everyone on this board has figuered out that nobody blows smoke up my a$$.
mike

So, if the fin angles are changed that would, in my knowledge, change stall. Since those with the TTS are saying more low end, tells me stall is lower? If the stall is lower, its gonna pull at lower RPM and thus FEEL stronger? Just trying to understand

If the stator is stock, no changes there... What else is there?

I really want to know this myself. I think the big 3 all make good converters and I've never noticed any measureable difference between any of them. Obviously different trucks its hard to tell. Mike L, I'd be willing to bet that you and I are the only people that have installed/driven all three of these...

I havent noticed a difference in any of them thats tells me "Man, what a converter"

Trippin,

The stator is NOT modified.It is bone stock OEM. In an earlier thread DT inferred that it cost more to produce this "mystery triple", his words ,not mine. The truth being bending impeller fin angle requires very little( we use an inexpensive tool made in house)
takes about 60-90 secs. My original point in the other thread was justifying the additional cost. 1295---1495 for the additional $200 you are receiving absolutly nothing except a different color and what I believe is an inferior tab design. Round tabs allow the most cost effective (time wise ) milling. By plunge milling a semi-circle. However it has been my observation that this half round tab design sometimes produces premature tab wear, tabs wear into cover and this metal has to go somewhere, and produces a rattle when the tabs wear.This is why we use a different design. www.suncoastconverters.com (http://www.suncoastconverters.com/) (about Pro-Loc)

Mike, If Guy could feel the difference between ATS and TTS then I assume ATS was using their "optimized" milled factory stator, no smoke.

We spent lots of time and lots of money developing a product to compliment our converter sales. Now I get the comment "I just want to purchase your clutches because I've already purchased a converter" why? "Well it cost more so it must be better" or " I want to use a PI converter because it's a little cheaper" Guess what? same converter. I might add that know of no auto,trans., or clutch mfg that uses a round tab plate design. I wonder why?

Eric, you are right on.
Smoop

Eric

To test low end torque multiplication in the truck is pretty simple. Remove all power adders then just lightly step on the pedal say 0 - 20%. Feel how the truck moves. If it feels like your being pushed down the road or does it feel like you are being pulled down the road. Looking at the nose of the hood also help, a puller will give the front of the hood a slight raise when starting off. Then reinstall all the power adders and check how much RPM drop there is under power when the TCC locks in fourth or fifth gears. Now change the converter and repeat the tests. If it feels like one pulls and one pushes the puller has better torque multiplication. The one with less RPM drop under power when locking has better hydraulic coupling. I know which one will win! :)

Terry and I have been friends for along time, both of us grew up and went to school here in LA. Another friend of mine Smoop knows is Tony Garcin. Smoop should know all about Terry's converter covers as he used to buy them to build Suncoast converters from him until he copied them and made his own. What goes inside the converter is my design and is not stock, nor is it a Precision Converter. Anyone can call Terry and I'm sure he will tell you the truth, he has his ideas and I have miine.

You are exactly right Steve, years ago we purchased covers from Terry for the first Dodge multi-plate converters, never said otherwise and I stated Terry was the first. Copied his design? not hardly, for the reasons metioned previous we chose to mfg our covers in house so we control quality, supply and design.

Our buddy Tony stated in his earlier ads" billet covers cause main brg damage" give me a break. Now he sells them. What gives? If you valued you friendship with Terry so much why did you approach me last year about purchasing Sun Coast converters.
You did not like the price and that's OK, I respect that. My ego didn't dictate that I needed to get into the performance module business, I am blessed that I do this because I enjoy what I'm doing, not because I need to feed my wallet or my ego.
Smoop

Well. I guess it is time for an honest converter test in my truck. I have a converter in stock from all the companys so there will be no possible ringers. I will not test any single plates. This will take time. How many of you guys will believe my findings? I already know tomac won't.):h

mike
Mike,

I, for one, think this would be a good idea, since I have not bought a trans kit yet and would like to see some findings on all three (or four, if you consider DTT now) before I do. Just treat it very scientifically, get another person to help verify your findings if you can (maybe Guy, since he didn't know about the converter swap, but noticed something). Document everything!!!!

I realize that everyone has their opinions regarding the differences inherent in the Suncoast, ATS, TTS and DTT trans kits. But hey guys, lets try to keep this civil, ok? We people who haven't bought one yet may look at the churlishness of the different vendors and think badly of their products. I've seen that happen.....

Tom :eek:

So whats up with this Yank converter? Is it made by someone familar ( ATS, Suncoast,TTS) or are they building there own?

Maybe you already explained this, but I missed it.

The Hood attitude test is invalid because the hood always lifts on any acceleration, it always falls only on decel. Building tight converters is easy for any knowledgeable converter mfg. With a diesel it became a little more difficult to balance turbo spool with converter stall, if the converter gets too tight regardless of how you get there you create a slug off the line. For most trucks its not a "one size fits all" but TC design should be tailerd to use. Bronc, TTS does not build converters and I would imagine Yank builds his own since Terry says he copied all of his performance designs.:ro)

Smoop

Do you have something that is better?
My credit card awaits. :cool:
If my opinion means anything, I think he does, and I don't believe he is finished yet...

If my opinion means anything, I think he does, and I don't believe he is finished yet...
I have my doubts that you could judge a converters performance.

Smoop

Let's tell the truth here. I haven't talked to you or anyone at Suncoast for over two years. Last I called was when I was helping Transgo develop the shift kit for the Allison. Transgo suggested I give you a call as a possible supplier. I asked about converters that is true but your sample converter you sent rattled at idle and was worse than stock for normal driving. Remember the truck Transgo used was supplied by me as were the power adders. As a matter of fact you have purchased one of our programs through Dennis Perry at TS Performance and you do sell performance programming at Suncoast as well.
The hood test is completely valid! If one lifts the hood and one doesn't there is a real difference, if one lifts the hood more than the other there is a real difference, not smoke and mirrors.

We spent lots of time and lots of money developing a product to compliment our converter sales. Now I get the comment "I just want to purchase your clutches because I've already purchased a converter" why? "Well it cost more so it must be better" or " I want to use a PI converter because it's a little cheaperI am blessed that I do this because I enjoy what I'm doing, not because I need to feed my wallet or my ego.I spent two years getting a triple lock converter to work the way I felt it should. We spent lots of time and lots of money developing it. If you don't need to feed your wallet or ego then why not let the customers pick and choose what they want?

The reason "I" bought the little black converter and SC internals was because neither my distributer nor I was aware that SC made a lower stall converter for the Allison. Anyone else have something better? I'll swap it in next round or when my wallet recharges (whichever comes first).

Personally, I don't really care if a magic pig farted into a stock converter to make it what it is. I paid for something "different", and I hope "better". I can vouch for it being different, but it will be a while before I am sure it is better.

Fun to hear what you guys are working on, but if I can't buy it, it is worthless to me.

If my opinion means anything, I think he does, and I don't believe he is finished yet...
I hope he does come up with something better, I really do. Ultimately, we as the consumers benefit as each company pushes the other to the next level.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/party.gif (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=0&forumid=1#)


We spent lots of time and lots of money developing a product to compliment our converter sales. Now I get the comment "I just want to purchase your clutches because I've already purchased a converter" why? "Well it cost more so it must be better"
Smoop
Where it all went terribly wrong for me is when Mr. Smoop wanted to dismiss and depreciate the design of another product, that I suspect is starting to put a $$$$ hurt on his bottom line.

This thread started with an innocent question about the Yank converter, then Mr. Mtomac took his shot and Mr. Smoop jumped in. So here we are. I respect Mr. Mtomac for his accomplishements and HE is the reason I went with my ATS trans. I would purchase the ATS package again if I was in the market for an Allison upgrade. It has done everything I have asked of it and has no trouble shifting no matter what program I throw at it. However, the TTS converter has shown itself to be a superior unit in torque multiplication and performance. My results were during a blind taste test. :D

Now does TTS have the right to charge whatever they want based on their superior performance? They absolutely do! There are some that are willing to pay for the best and some that will bargain shop. To each his own.

I'm sure in time the other manfacturers will copy the TTS design and release their version of it. At which time TTS will have to lower their price to be competitive or improve the design to the next level. :eek:

Suncoast is a good product, just not the industry leader they once were as far as Allisons go. I suspect this would frustrate any business owner. The answer is to go back and improve the product, not tear down the competition. It sounds to me based on Mr. Kennedy's comment that Mr. Smoop is already embarked upon this improvement journey. Perhaps the first step was to purchase or obtain product from the competition. If this is the case then it seems Mr. Smoop has engaged in some Reverse Engineering of his own. :eek:

And now with DTT in the race, the plot thickens. :cool:


http://forums.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/lurk5.gif (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1549473690#)

Pass that popcorn please


T:eek: NY

I knew there was something I liked about you Trippin!):h

I wish I coulda made it to John's back in Sept to meet you, Guy. Straightforward and to the point. Thanks.

Tom http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=107

Pass that popcorn please


T:eek: NY
Here's the popcorn....Want another beer while I'm up?

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/cheers2.gif (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=0&forumid=1#)

Pass that popcorn please


T:eek: NY
With or without extra tranny fluid?

Actually rather than go off topic I want to keep this on topic...........:rolleyes:


I know we have a habit of corrupting great threads...........I want to see this one stay in the right direction :o

So I am going to refrain from going off topic

T:cool: NY

Would anyone like to explain to me why a triple disc is better than a single disc convertor?..... I hear a lot about 3 VS 1 but nobody has bothered to outline the reasons as to why 3 discs are better than 1..... DTT has a writeup on the subject, anyone else want to take a stab at it?

Juice
Post the writeup. Then we can discuss it and either rip it to pieces or agree. I am already against it; just so you know.

common sense says triple offers three times the surface area.... Thats a good reason. You could run pressure half as much and still hold better with three then one.
At least thats how I see it.. intersted in reading more though.

This seems to be a question i answer a lot lately. What is a multi disc clutch and how do i understand about them.

Before i get into the automatic transmisison explination here is an analogy i want you to keep in mind as a reference for the info i am about to explain for the automatic.

If you owned a standard transmission and you constantly rested your foot on the clutch, would the clutch last a long time ? or do you think you would be shortening the the life by doing so.

MULTI DISC CLUTCHES
If when considering a product and you don’t know the proper questions to ask you could find yourself in a little bit of trouble.

Here is ia more detailed breakdown so you can verify for yourself without bias using your service manuals.

On an automatic the tc clutch is released by hydraulic oil, the moment you start your truck up hydraulic oil (atf) pushes the clutch piston away from the front cover towards the turbine. If you have multiple disc clutches you are actually hydraulically applying the lock up clutch as the lock up clutch fibres are being squeezed by the atf.

2 of the 3 clutch fibres are on all the time the moment you start your truck up till you shut it off. They are constantly being dragged; this will result in premature failure. By the time the average person even figures out what is going on, they will not only have contaminated their transmission but they would be looking at contamination of the heat exchanger and the transmission cooler. It could turn out to be a expensive repair

You wont get much warning till the truck just up and quits.

The lock up clutch system is a simple device, its either on or off.

Torque converter clutch release oil is fed through the input shaft via switch valve. This valve simply supplies release oil or apply oil to the tc clutch. This information you guys can verify in your Chrysler manuals.

The oil is fed through the input shaft to release the lockup clutch the moment you start your vehicle. This oil pressure is always there pushing against the clutch piston until the lockup up valve cycles and turns the switch valve. Then the oil is released from in front of the piston which then becomes cooler flow oil.

The oem system is designed to only release a single clutch .

When you have a multiple disc clutch the release oil also becomes partial apply oil.
When you have 3 fibre discs you must have 3 steel surfaces for them to work against.
The other 2 dics must have their own apply plate so the center disc is actually being squeezed between the two pressure plates causing those two fibres to wear out. As these fibres are wearing out they are creating contamination.

Since the oil leaving the converter has now become cooler flow and goes through the switch valve and not the transmission filter the contamination first enters the heat exchanger then the transmission cooler then your return lube through the intermediate shaft . The contamination will now enter the transmission pan from intermediate shaft.

I know the repair bills for this type of damage is expensive because its nearly impossible to clean out the heat exchanger and the trans cooler.

Now if someone dis-agrees with how i described the lock up system works please feel free to comment on my discussion forum.

For those of you who want to follow along and don’t know who to believe or i lost you, get out your Chrysler manual , most of the information i am discussing is in there in a lot more detail. Look up the switch valve, the lockup valve and the cooler flow , and the tc clutch.

Having a Chrysler manual may be the best $95 you spend on your Dodge Ram.

After 1999 it is one of the best written books you will ever find on your Dodge automatic. Not only does it talk about how to change the parts it tells you what each individual part does and principles of operation.

If you guys have any questions please feel free to ask on my forum.

The major confusing issue that started the controversy between the latest triple disc company and us (DTT) is because it was stated that higher line pressures are not necessary to facilitate the tripple disc Torque converters.

When we as manufacturers make untrue claims like this we had better be able to back them up. This is the age of instant information; companies can no longer make outlandish claims without feedback from other competitors and or customers.

Transmissions seem to be more of a mystery to most consumers and gives the manufacturers a strong advantage over the consumers.

It is my intention to try and use this website as an equalizer to some of the CRAP being told to consumers out there about their transmisions.

Think really hard about this: TRIPLE DISCS ARE FAILING IN THE FORDS AT AN ALARMING RATE, you have only to look on the ford website to confirm this. COMPANIES suggesting this same system is the answer for the dodge is either not paying attention or must really believe the CUMMINS HAS LESS TORQUE THAT THE FORDs.

My best advice to you is to be careful that the advice you are following is not damaging to your transmission.

Do your home work carefully and if you dont understand something ask questions from various sources until you do.

EDIT: Taken from DTT's website.
http://www.dieseltrans.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12

Steve, Three different converters were sent to Transgo, not to you,one was a single disc, one unfortunatly had round tabs (yes they do rattle, one of many reasons we abandoned the design that your present supplier uses) Where Transgo chose to use them was their call.
Trip, Whats to improve? Our original TC was quiet a bit tighter than current design, but feedback wanted something that would improve turbo spool. We responded. The consumer always has the choice, but I'll bet he wants his choice based on accurate info.
Juice, your little essay sounds logical, but as a lot of his retrotric its flawed. Real world results don't jivewith what he says. The release circuit of a LU converter is not a sealed circuit as the apply is. Even though converter feed is exhausted at the rear of the impeller during fluid mode as opposed to LU, the fluid exiting the impeller that escapes the turbine has centrifugal and forward residual motion, this keeps the plates in a floating position when not applied. Examination of multi-plates with in excess of 100k miles confirms this. When you look at friction condition of plates after they have been stressed you will find that the sides adjacent to the cover and piston will show less signs of stress , this is also true in an internal clutch pack. Why? because the larger mass (cover and piston) disperses more heat than the steel seperator plates. The example of the Ford multi-plate failures is skewed (as usual) They failed (and rattled) because of flawed tab design and plate retention , not friction failures in normal duty applications. If increasing the # of disc doesn't improve capacity why not remove 5 of the OEM C1's and just use 1 disc? Good luck.
Smoop

Trip, For your information "Mr Smoop's" bottom line for 04 was the highest its ever been. We don't need to reverse engineer anything, why? Torque converters and transmissions are our only business and that is where we spend our energy. 40 years in the trans business (thats right 40, I have a few more years of experience than you) and 16 years in the converter business gives me a little insight in design and mfg.

Smoop:D

Juice, your little essay sounds logical, but as a lot of his retrotric its flawed. Real world results don't jivewith what he says. The release circuit of a LU converter is not a sealed circuit as the apply is. Even though converter feed is exhausted at the rear of the impeller during fluid mode as opposed to LU, the fluid exiting the impeller that escapes the turbine has centrifugal and forward residual motion, this keeps the plates in a floating position when not applied. Examination of multi-plates with in excess of 100k miles confirms this. When you look at friction condition of plates after they have been stressed you will find that the sides adjacent to the cover and piston will show less signs of stress , this is also true in an internal clutch pack. Why? because the larger mass (cover and piston) disperses more heat than the steel seperator plates. The example of the Ford multi-plate failures is skewed (as usual) They failed (and rattled) because of flawed tab design and plate retention , not friction failures in normal duty applications. If increasing the # of disc doesn't improve capacity why not remove 5 of the OEM C1's and just use 1 disc? Good luck.
Smoop
OK, First off, it is quoted off of DTT's site.
Secondly, Thanks you for Posting in response to this. This question has been asked quite a few times and to the best of my knowledge nobody has stepped up to the plate with a direct reply to the question.

Now for the next question. If a single disk can hold 880RWHP.1500 RWTQ, why would you have the need for a multi disc clutch? There must be a benefit to making a convertor like that. Or you would not be building one.

I am just trying to get all views on the topic. 3 VS 1 VS 5 discs.... There is a reason for everything and I hope other members will make informed buying decisions based on what they read, and what they feel will address their needs best.

Juice

I'll keep my TTS triple with the stock stall speed, but greater torque multiplication. :D

Lower torque multiplication is something many of us noticed right after switching to a triple. I had become acclimated to it over time, the difference for me was getting into my truck one day not knowing the converter had been switched, having all the torque multiplication back and wondering what the heck had happened.:eek:

I thought I was saving a few bucks parking my truck at Mike L's instead of LAX while I had flown cross country. Instead it cost me $1499.00 for a new converter.

They wanted an unbiased evaluation, and they got one. I was given the choice to keep the TTS converter and pay for it or they would reinstall my old one.

Anyone want to buy an ever so slightly used ATS triple? Only driven to church on Sundays. ):h

Both the Suncoast and ATS triples I have previously driven have exhibited lower than stock torque multiplication. Any thoughts as to why?

Trip, For your information "Mr Smoop's" bottom line for 04 was the highest its ever been. We don't need to reverse engineer anything, why? Torque converters and transmissions are our only business and that is where we spend our energy. 40 years in the trans business (thats right 40, I have a few more years of experience than you) and 16 years in the converter business gives me a little insight in design and mfg.

Smoop:D
If you haven't studied (Reverse Engineered) the TTS triple, how can you be so sure of it's design/manufacturing process, that you so easily dismissed in an earlier post?

I'm glad your bottom line is healthy and increasing, I truly am. :ro)
As I have stated before, we as the consumers will benefit from the competition among companies in your field.

I certainly don't have your experience in transmissions/converters, however I do have experience with 3 different triple disc converters, a Suncoast Allison and an ATS Allison using a Van Aken box and I can tell you which ones I prefer.:D

I might even be able to follow along if you explain to me your thoughts on stall speed and torque multiplication. :confused:

Trip,

I was asked to look at this "magic triple disc" and after seeing the posts regarding (wet roads, ice etc) I'll have to admit I was more than willing.
The only difference between a stock oem converter (other than the triple disc and billet cover) was that the tips of the vanes onthe impeller were bent to a positive angle. (common practice in converter mods). The D-max allison converter has what is termed a "positive vane angle on the impeller" except on the very tip of the blade the vane has a slight negative pitch. This is avery simple and common operation (no rocket science) however I feel if the vane is bent to a positive angle it should be furnaced brazed or tig brazed to prevent it from returning to it's original position by the force of the fluid. Maybe an oversight in this case. The Allison comes from oem with furnaced brazed impeller and turbine in place.

Torque multiplication and stall: I'll try to be brief. Do you realize you are keeping an old man from getting his proper rest?
I will not get into Engine torque and vehicle's weight effects on stall.

Torque multiplication is achieved by the re-direction of fluid exiting the turbine against the impeller blades. Stall and Torque Multi. have symbiontic relationship, (any thing that affects one affects the other) This can be termed the Stall Torque Ratio STR. STR may be altered by:
Converter or impeller diameter
impeller vane design and angle
turbine vane angle
stator design
turbine to impeller clearance
Stator design and impeller angle usually being the formost

Stator: # of blades, design, angle & length of blades, opening between blades(window) determines the volume & speed of fluid allowed to be redirected toward impeller.The stator does the torque multiplication fromthe time the impeller rotates up until the turbine reaches approx 90% of impeller speed, then the stator freewheels (becomes in-effective) on a one-way clutch or sprag. Impeller fin angle greatly affects when this fluid coupling occurs.
Example: gas motor @ drags, negative fin angle stall conv will produce high stall for launch but lacks coupling on top end (not good)
A good converter uses the proper combination and design to produce the desired results.
The unfortunate common practice of milling the backside of the stator to shorten the blade allows a larger window that gives the feeling of lower stall at the sacrifice of torque multiplication. This is a POS.
With the use of a clutch to achieve lock-up this allowed the use of a higher stall when desired and still have 100% coupling at speed. This is why there are numerous Dodge Cummins using Sun Coast triple or 5 disc converters and transmissions to achieve 9,10,& 11 sec 1/4 mile ET's. Garmon, Fletcher, Harris, Hellman, Prince, Stucky, Morrision, Gabby, and Perry. I apologise if I missed someone.
Anyway this is enough for today. I'm tired.
Bye
Smoop

Trip,

As for your difference in your ATS & TTs converter I can't speak to that. However I can say that Sun Coast has never dimenished torque multi-plication in the Allison converter. The fact that it was in a different truck may explain the reaction you felt.

Juice: The speed differential between turbine and impeller has a great affect on the clutch's capability to achieve LU. The greater the difference then then more work is required to make them the same. The prime example would have to be Cummins because Dodge designed the converter with a higher stall to address drivability concerns. The DC comes from the factory with about 400 rpm too much stall, when you add more power it gets worse. Since the impeller is already very "positive" you have to work with the stator more to address this condition. In order to increase clutch durability limited to a single disc one has to decrease turbine to impeller speed differential @ coupling. Doing this with the stator results in some very poor performance on low end.
When you add a large turbo like an HX40 (some of the ones on these drag trucks look like 30 gal drums) it drasticly increases turbo-lag= poor performance out of the hole. By using multiple clutches we are not restricted by differential speeds for durability concerns. This allows a little more creativeness with design. This is the primary but not the only reason.
Smoop

In closing I might add: Trip your converter does not have "stock stall".

If there are any Sun Coast conv owners that are not happy with their current converter performance. Return it and tell me what you want and it will be done at no charge, tighter, looser, whatever.
Smoop

If there are any Sun Coast conv owners that are not happy with their current converter performance. Return it and tell me what you want and it will be done at no charge, tighter, looser, whatever.
Smoop
Now that is tough to beat http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/rockon.gif

Now that is tough to beat http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/rockon.gif
Agreed.

This thread started with an innocent question about the Yank converter, then Mr. Mtomac took his shot and Mr. Smoop jumped in. So here we are. I respect Mr. Mtomac for his accomplishements and HE is the reason I went with my ATS trans. I would purchase the ATS package again if I was in the market for an Allison upgrade. It has done everything I have asked of it and has no trouble shifting no matter what program I throw at it. However, the TTS converter has shown itself to be a superior unit in torque multiplication and performance. My results were during a blind taste test. :D


Suncoast is a good product, just not the industry leader they once were as far as Allisons go. I suspect this would frustrate any business owner. The answer is to go back and improve the product, not tear down the competition. It sounds to me based on Mr. Kennedy's comment that Mr. Smoop is already embarked upon this improvement journey. Perhaps the first step was to purchase or obtain product from the competition. If this is the case then it seems Mr. Smoop has engaged in some Reverse Engineering of his own. :eek:

And now with DTT in the race, the plot thickens. :cool:


http://forums.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/lurk5.gif (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1549473690#)

I just wanted to interject a few comments in response here. I have read no further in this thread than the post that I am quoting. Guy has never run in his truck (to the best of my knowledge) a Suncoast converter, only ATS and TTS. I have never run a TTS converter, only ATS and Suncoast. I felt that the ATS and Suncoast converters were fine initially, but as power levels rose, they became too "loose" and needed adjustments. I have discussed something tighter with Joe and Clint at length. I've also discussed this with a thrid, and very obscure transmission shop and hope to try one of his designs soon. Suffice to say, I've had other converters from Joe from well prior to the release of the TTS unit. I don't have anything special from ATS yet as I am waiting for the cover to be set up to accept a different bolt.


As for who's a leader in Allison aftermarket? I'd say ATS first, then Suncoast, then a few others for the following reasons:

Clint was the only game in town when I put my ATS upgrades in. The only one to date to add electronic fluid manipulation. I've had my ups and downs with the ATS trans, and felt it was at it's best just before I pulled it to try the Suncoast. In fact, I dragged my heels on the Suncoast install to work through the ATS issues that I was having which in the end turned out to be a problem with incorrect hole sizes the ATS custom spacer plate.


Joe waited a bit longer to get involved, but near as I can tell, he was the first to release a friction/hydraulics based Allison mod. Additional clutches/piston machining, single sided C1's etc for a production or public release transmission. C1, 2, 3, and 4 frictions and steels built to Suncoast design specs. ATS as I understand was on a parallel course with the added friction in continual evolution of their product.


Now I'll read the rest of the posts in this thread...

I just wanted to interject a few comments in response here. I have read no further in this thread than the post that I am quoting. Guy has never run in his truck (to the best of my knowledge) a Suncoast converter, only ATS and TTS. I have never run a TTS converter, only ATS and Suncoast. I felt that the ATS and Suncoast converters were fine initially, but as power levels rose, they became too "loose" and needed adjustments. I have discussed something tighter with Joe and Clint at length. I've also discussed this with a thrid, and very obscure transmission shop and hope to try one of his designs soon. Suffice to say, I've had other converters from Joe from well prior to the release of the TTS unit. I don't have anything special from ATS yet as I am waiting for the cover to be set up to accept a different bolt.


As for who's a leader in Allison aftermarket? I'd say ATS first, then Suncoast, then a few others for the following reasons:

Clint was the only game in town when I put my ATS upgrades in. The only one to date to add electronic fluid manipulation. I've had my ups and downs with the ATS trans, and felt it was at it's best just before I pulled it to try the Suncoast. In fact, I dragged my heels on the Suncoast install to work through the ATS issues that I was having which in the end turned out to be a problem with incorrect hole sizes the ATS custom spacer plate.


Joe waited a bit longer to get involved, but near as I can tell, he was the first to release a friction/hydraulics based Allison mod. Additional clutches/piston machining, single sided C1's etc for a production or public release transmission. C1, 2, 3, and 4 frictions and steels built to Suncoast design specs. ATS as I understand was on a parallel course with the added friction in continual evolution of their product.


Now I'll read the rest of the posts in this thread...
You are correct John, but I have driven a few trucks with Suncoast triple converters. :D

Mike330R

To get back to your question. I know a few cars that have a YANK converter. From low HP to pretty high HP. All seem to be happy with them. My buddy runs one in his rock climbing bronco. He has had no problems. The customer service could be better though. He wanted to get the stall changed and it took many phone calls before they would even call him back. Just something to think about.
Chris

Smoop mentioned the possible effects of torque and weight on stall and JK mentioned converters being good initially but not so good as power increased.

It has always been my uderstanding that stall speed was completly dependant apon vehicle weight and flywheel torque. Rear end gearing would have a small effect as well.

So basically a converter in a bone stock Dmax might stall really low but when you flog it with a big tune it is gonna force a higher stall speed. Same goes with a heavy truck. A heavy truck will cause a higher stall speed.

I watch these threads closely because here at altitude with a small tune 50-70 HP the thought of an extremly tight converter bothers me. Correct me if I am wrong?

I watch these threads closely because here at altitude with a small tune 50-70 HP the thought of an extremly tight converter bothers me. Correct me if I am wrong?
Your wrong! :D

With a 50-70HP tune at altitude, I wouldn't think you would be a candidate for a triple. :D
But it is good info following the thread any way. :D

Smoop mentioned the possible effects of torque and weight on stall and JK mentioned converters being good initially but not so good as power increased.

It has always been my uderstanding that stall speed was completly dependant apon vehicle weight and flywheel torque. Rear end gearing would have a small effect as well.

I've said it before but I will say it again. The way you lower the stall in a converter plays a big part in how the torque multiplication works. Torque multiplication is affected by the way most of the TC manufactures are doing it today. Lowering the stall and keeping the torque multiplication is what you want and this is what we have achieved in our converters. Do the testing I mentioned earlier in this thread and you will see the difference. As HP/torque are increased you overcome the fluid coupling ability of the converter and greater stall is the result. So you need to worry about this when designing/modifing a converter.

Trip,

As for your difference in your ATS & TTs converter I can't speak to that. However I can say that Sun Coast has never dimenished torque multi-plication in the Allison converter. The fact that it was in a different truck may explain the reaction you felt.

Smoop
What would account for the "dead pedal" feel of a truck off idle after the install of one of your triples? Many besides me have felt the same.

In closing I might add: Trip your converter does not have "stock stall".
Smoop
After Reverse Engineering the magic converter, what do you feel my stall is?



If there are any Sun Coast conv owners that are not happy with their current converter performance. Return it and tell me what you want and it will be done at no charge, tighter, looser, whatever.
Smoop
This is a commendable statement. I hope some of you Suncoast owners take Joe up on his offer and report back your results.

Diesel Tech you are telling me that your converter gives me the best of both worlds. When it comes time for a rebuild I will find out.

As The Stator Turns......

As The Stator Turns......
Which way?):h

Even worst than a soap these upgrades are about like purchasing a computer. You can purchase the latest and greatest then before you warm the damn thing up here comes the new and improved, slicker than owl $hit release. With an upgrade in my VERY near future all this information has me totally :confused: . Like the wife tells me I'm not that good but I'm slow. Wonder what she actually means by that. :confused:

Even worst than a soap these upgrades are about like purchasing a computer. You can purchase the latest and greatest then before you warm the damn thing up here comes the new and improved, slicker than owl $hit release. With an upgrade in my VERY near future all this information has me totally :confused: . Like the wife tells me I'm not that good but I'm slow. Wonder what she actually means by that. :confused:My wife says that I'm not any good, but she also asks "Do you have to be the fastest in everything you do!" :(
):h

It's the quite way go get on and off that counts.):h

I'm waiting on the READER'S DIGEST version, could some one help me :D

It's the quite way go get on and off that counts.):h
Ya, the dismount can be a real "B":eek:

Like the wife tells me I'm not that good but I'm slow. Wonder what she actually means by that. :confused:

That might be a compliment. Tis better than Speedy Gonzales or the Flash. ):h

Thank God somebody hijacked this thread. ):h

mike

Thank God somebody hijacked this thread. ):h

mike

My head hurts! ):h What a minute! I just stole the wife's excuse! :eek: ):h