I have 15k miles on Delvac1 with an Oilguard bypass. I did oil analysis at 5k, 10k and 15k with AVLube.

At 10k all was perfect except high soot, 1.1. But TBN was 10.1 and viscosity was 13.6. 1.1 is not terrible, but I called Oilguard. Mark Meddock said it sounded out of sorts and wanted to see the oil for himself. I sent him a sample and at no charge he tested it. Soot showed 0.3. He said the oil is fine, keep it in.

At 15k AVLube showed <0.1 soot, but TBN was 5.15!!!!!!! I even had 2 1/2 quarts make-up oil added between the 10k and 15k samples!!! Viscosity 13.6, additives are UP from last analysis (probably from make-up oil added), oxidation stable at 14, and no water present.

So how does soot go DOWN over 5k miles and TBN bottom out even with make-up oil added? According to Oilguard, sub-micron soot cannot be filtered by their filter.

The ONLY thing I can think of, and I am pulling this out of my a$$, is if the soot really was 1.1, and with the cold weather I got some condensation/water in the sump, and the water reacted with the soot to form acid, that could account for a drop in soot and loss of TBN reserve????????

At a loss, SPICER

On edit, just spoke with George Morrison. He said, "No way your TBN is 5.15." Must be a lab error. Delvac1 can go 100,000 miles with bypass and have a TBN of 8. Keep the oil. He also mentioned that oil analysis is not rocket science and error is common. I am a little frustrated because a TBN of 5.15 should have signaled the lab that there was a possible problem. Then they could have used any left-over oil to double check the TBN before sending me the report. SPICER

Sending samples to two different places is a problem by itself. 2 1/2 quarts makeup is 25% of capacity and in IMHO too much lost in 5K miles. You might want to start over from scratch. Later! Frank

Sending samples to two different places is a problem by itself. 2 1/2 quarts makeup is 25% of capacity and in IMHO too much lost in 5K miles. You might want to start over from scratch. Later! Frank
Actually I did not use 2 1/2 quarts in 5k. Every time I sampled I kept a small bottle for myself. So between about 16 oz. from sampling and normal oil consumption the oil level eventually worked its way down. Over the first 10k I did not continually "top-off" the oil. It was still in the operating range so I left it.

Why is sending samples to 2 labs a problem? The only problem I have seen is that a sample at 2 labs will come back looking like 2 different oils.......not an exact science. SPICER

That's why George makes the big bucks. ):h

The only thing to go on when you are doing oil changes by analysis is the lab reports.

If you think something is hinky with the lab you're currently using, find another lab.

Really, what you want is the same lab tech doing the analysis. That way you'll get consistency. Unless you have some catistrophic event take place, the trends are much more important than the absolute numbers. IMHO...

Thanks Dave. You saved me a post. Later! Frank

I have had 2 reports consecutively that have advised to "change the oil now". At 10k it was a soot of 1.1. Now at 15k the soot is fine (<0.1) but the TBN is a pittiful 5.15.

George told me that these numbers can't be right. I agree, but I also paid $25 for each analysis with shipping. So where is the comfort in this?

A good lab tech would have seen the discrepency and double checked the numbers, or offered to retest for me. I guess I am looking for a new lab. Any advice? SPICER

The reason I run "regular" Delvac and change every 5k. Oil is cheap, the peace of mind is priceless.

If I was going to start using UOA as my indicator of oil changes, I'd go with George.

One, he has a rep a mile long and is very conscientious about doing a good job for his customers.

Two, He's a Dmax owner also and knows what the appropriate analysis should be and what looks "hinky".


I think he still sells complete Delvac 1 oil change kits for the Dmax. You get the analysis along with the oil.

Finding a good lab for oil is like finding a Doctor, you have to trust him not to kill you.

I trust George's skills and judgment.

Find out who uses him and ask them. Also, talk to the guys over at the oil forum. He hangs out there too.

That's the problem, I am using George/AVLube who uses Predictive Maintenance Services in Ohio to do their oil analysis for them.

I am doing the analysis in order to establish a baseline for the performance of my Oilguard bypass. I want to see how far I can go, see the trends, and establish an OCI for the future. I pay for analysis and TBN and get some wacky numbers it makes me wonder why I am doing it. Data with errors becomes somewhat useless and therefore a waste of money. With the money I have spent on oil analysis I could have changed out my Delvac1 a few times. The point is I want to see the trends, including TBN. SPICER

Use Blackstone Labs with Dyson Analysis interpretation and start using Lube Control and Fuel Power and your UOA's will improve!

Use Blackstone Labs with Dyson Analysis interpretation and start using Lube Control and Fuel Power and your UOA's will improve!
I wanted to add to my previous post, I trust George 110% and his knowledge is second to none, especially regarding the Dmax. I just don't like the inconsistency in my recent lab results.

What is Lube control. Is Fuel Power the FPPF stuff? I use Primrose. SPICER

I have a suggestion Spicer. Send another sample to George. He will make sure this one gets his personal attention. I had a problem with a fuel sample and George made it right. Later! Frank

I've had many samples done through George. We've tracked my 2002 since early on, and the analysis has come back excellent each time with Predictive Maintenance doing the work. I've also tracked my 2005 and have 3 analysis sheets so far prior to 3k


Arlen, There should be no need to additize Delvac 1 which is what is being suggested...

I've had many samples done through George. We've tracked my 2002 since early on, and the analysis has come back excellent each time with Predictive Maintenance doing the work. I've also tracked my 2005 and have 3 analysis sheets so far prior to 3k


Arlen, There should be no need to additize Delvac 1 which is what is being suggested...
I agree, I would never put an additive in an already perfect oil.

I don't doubt good analysis results with AVLube, I am just making the point that I have had 2 in a row with screwy numbers. SPICER

PM has done several for me and I have and account that uses them for everthing they have. May be you should do another just to double check.

I agree with JK as well that good oils never need and additive. You you have to use additive buy a better oil.

Greg

Well, by the time you get done analyzing the crap out of this load, you may want to just start all over with new oil and cut your losses. It won't take too long to eat up the cost of an oil change in lab work.

Of course, if you just want to be anal, that's OK too.

We had a contaminated filter at work which caused oil analysis to be screwy. We didn't find it until we had the filters analyzed. The vendor said bad batch. Who knows what that meant.

I wanted to add to my previous post, I trust George 110% and his knowledge is second to none, especially regarding the Dmax. I just don't like the inconsistency in my recent lab results.

What is Lube control. Is Fuel Power the FPPF stuff? I use Primrose. SPICER Spicer,

Lube Control is an anitoxidant for your oil and Fuel Power is not the FPPF stuff. Fuel Power is the top fuel add available today. Find them here www.lubecontrol.com (http://www.lubecontrol.com) . Run a search on the additive forum at BITOG (http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=5) and learn more than you want to know about UOA's at BITOG main forum (http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi). LC and FP are top choices in keeping an engine clean and keeping you UOA's looking great.

I know its not what your asking but I had the oilguard (took it off) and I didnt see any improvement in my oil "breakdown" problem.

At 5k (aprox) my oil starts burning. Before 5k no oil loss due to burn.

Between 5k and 7.5k my trucks starts burning oil like mad (aprox 2+ qts).

My opinion is that when oil burns its breaking down.

Ive tried delvac syn.

Ive tried scamsoil syn.

Im now using shell rotella syn. They all breakdown for me at 5k. Shell seems to breakdown less and burn less. Also my low oil pressure at hot idle seems to be a few pounds higher.

JMO.......

LC and FP are top choices in keeping an engine clean and keeping you UOA's looking great.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Again when using a quality oil it will keep the engine clean. To keep fuel clean use a good filter system and buy quality fuel. Do that and additives are not needed.

But I can't say much because about 20 years or so ago I got sucked into the Slick 50 scam because a friend was selling it.

Greg

I considered using Fuel Power, but I wanted to be sure that it did not contain alcohol. I sent several emails to LC, but they refused to state it did not contain alcohol. They would only tell me the product ingredients is proprietary information. I decided to err on the side of caution and assume that it did contain alcohol, and therefore I have not tried the product. From all the good things I've read about this product, I'd tried it if I knew definitively that FP did not contain alcohol in any form.

FPPF Total Power is the best fuel conditioner that I have ever used...

I considered using Fuel Power, but I wanted to be sure that it did not contain alcohol. I sent several emails to LC, but they refused to state it did not contain alcohol. They would only tell me the product ingredients is proprietary information. I decided to err on the side of caution and assume that it did contain alcohol, and therefore I have not tried the product. From all the good things I've read about this product, I'd tried it if I knew definitively that FP did not contain alcohol in any form.
If there was some oil additive out there that made a big difference, companies like Mobil would be using it as a part of their additive package. I don't care if Al Unser Senior thinks Prolong Super Lubricants or any other additive is the "Best Additive In The World". He is getting paid to say that, and it is all snake oil in my book. Mobil has more money in R&D than any Prolong or Slick 50 or Slippery S**t additive company. Mobil and the others have the money and are in fierce competition with each other to be the best for our engines. I doubt some rinky dink additive company has found the "Lubricating Holy Grail", I just don't believe it.

I also agree about the alcohol thing. If they won't reveal that it has no alcohol, it is probably NOT because it is alcohol free! If they had nothing to hide, they would reveal. Kind of like K&N air filters. The fact that they will not show us data does NOT make me think they have data that makes them look good. SPICER

OK, everything is cool now. Joe from Predictive Maintenance Services sent me an E-mail in reply to my questions.

My TBN was retested and it is 10.13, not 5.15. Whew!!! He attributes the discrepancy to machine testing error. He also stated that he should have cought the error and retested before sending me the results. He appologized. It's cool.

As far as my soot, he cannot retest my last sample but agreed that there was probably an error since the soot is now back down to <0.1. As you may recall, at 10k miles it tested at 1.1. At 15k, it was back to <0.1. Not logical. Joe said that a very dirty sample before mine is the possible explanation. However, he cannot confirm, but again appologized for the error.

Joe said that NOT changing my oil with the high soot at 10k was the right decision since the TBN and viscosity were perfect.

So I am at 15k on one oil change with the Oilguard. I will change the filters tonight only because I am EXTREMELY curious to see the condition of the filter. I will go to 20k or my next camping trip before I do a complete change, which ever comes first.

I told Joe I much appreciated his follow-up and concern in this matter. I will certainly stick with him and AVLube. SPICER

Spicer
Like you I do not believe in oil additatives, but it sure makes a guy wonder when he see's one of these sales pitches with the bearing load test. Did you know ford has a extreme pressure additive they push for guys that put there vehicles past the limit. Haven't checked with G.M. to see if they have. Sure makes a person wonder huh.

I considered using Fuel Power, but I wanted to be sure that it did not contain alcohol. I sent several emails to LC, but they refused to state it did not contain alcohol. They would only tell me the product ingredients is proprietary information. I decided to err on the side of caution and assume that it did contain alcohol, and therefore I have not tried the product. From all the good things I've read about this product, I'd tried it if I knew definitively that FP did not contain alcohol in any form. No alcohol in FP....been used with great success in diesel engines for decades.

To SPICER....do not be fooled and think fuel companies are doing all they can to provide the best, cleanest burning fuel. If Mobil or whomever wanted to have fuel that did not carbon up engines they could do it, but it cost $$$$$$!

Do not compare LC and FP to Slick 50 or any other snake oil, kerosene crap. Read up on BITOG and learn what these products do.

Click HERE (http://lubecontrol.softvu.com/cn/Relay/Relay2/preview_launch.asp?p_draftId=8bfae0819ebb4372996b7 bbeb07ffdd7) to read various PDF files and learn.

OCD, I don't think any one here is buying your snake oil BS ! ):h

Spicer, You can't argue with the big three from George.

1) Great Service
2) Great Products
3) Knows what he's talking about

LCD, Most members here are extremely reluctant to take a vendor's word for it, especially when it comes to products they stand to profit from.

Vendors have told us ALL ABOUT Amsoil air filters, K&N air filters, UNI air filters, etc.... We challenged them with "Show us some REAL data", not testimonial/endorsement/in house testing crap. We even begged the manufacturers to show us real, unbiased, independently generated data. They refused. Out of frustration, suspicion we were being lied to, and maybe a little motivation to PROVE THESE SNAKE OIL CREEPS WRONG, we did our own independent study through a lab. Guess what? We were right.

I think I speak for most members when I say we are not your average, trusting, idiot consumer. We demand real data, not insulting propoganda.

I looked at your website to learn more about these products. I have seen a hundred claims of improved performance before. My BS detectors came out instantly. I see nothing concrete in the claims/statements that I read. I have wasted enough of my time trying to prove or disprove the claims of vendors on this forum. Now it is their/your turn. Show us all some hard data. We are a tough sell. We are interested in protecting ourselves from inflated claims and snake oil. We are pretty smart and we HATE being taken for dopes. I am sure you are a nice guy. I am all for new and fantastic products. But we will NOT just take your word for it. SPICER

What ! You don't want to pay $29.95 for a can of diesel, kerosene and red dye #5 ??? ):h -:t But, But , But if you have oil in your truck it will make it better ! Trust me ! yea yea that's the ticket. Censored :D

I have said many times to read up over on BITOG and see what independent people are saying. First off we realize the members here are very much above average knowledge regarding this topic that is the exact reason we are here.

Same as the members over at BITOG, they are very much above average intellegence in regards to oils and fuels and we have overcome their doubts.

The link I gave above is all independent info, lab reports, testimonials with phone numbers (real people), UOA's.....what more can we do?????

When cities have been using these 2 products since 1984 and school districts using them as well it does say something.

All I can say is log in at www.bobistheoilguy.com go to the additive forum and ask the members to give their opinions.




Just give our products a shot and you'll see. LC and FP work different than any add out there. No alcohol, kerosene, diesel, teflon...ect.

All the products everyone here talks about will break up carbon and leave it floating in your fuel system or crankcase. This is not good. These peices will damage your engine. LC and FP dissolve carbon and varnish, remove water, add lubricity to your fuel, lower freeze points and increase potential energy in fuel.


All we ask is a shot, go over to BITOG and just ask about us.

SPICER....I'll send you a gallon of each for FREE to try if you'd like. Get a UOA now without them and then after using get another UOA.

None of the info in the link above is 'in house' all independent. Tell me what we can do and we'll do it.

Just a few


http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=002042#000003


http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000106#000002


http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001303#000000


http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000965#000010

The testimonials are from users, not experts. I really don't pat any attention to them. People who drop K&N air filters in their trucks often notice a "big boost in power". But on a dyno, it just ain't there!

I "tried" to read the lab info. Very small type, I must be getting old. The tests I saw were done on lawn mower engines.

You mentioned doing a before and after UOA to see for myself. What would I see? My oil analysis has been steady and excellent. What variables or components of the oil analysis will change?

Also, companies like Mobil and GM, what do they say about an oil additive? I have never seen them encourage its use. I have seen them discourage it.

It sounds like the additives are for "cleaning up engine and fuel system components" I guess I am not convinced I have that problem. SPICER

If I were GM or Mobil I would discourage oid adds too! Most are crap. LC is an anitoxidant and you would notice lower oxidation, lower nitration, and lower insolubles. Keep the soot from agglomerating. Not to mention lower emissions.

I am not sure what test you are speaking of on lawn mowers? The lab info can be easily read, when opening in PDF format use the magnify feature and blow the page up.

You mention Dyno test showing nothing for the K&N. Did you bother reading the Dyno before and after on the link I gave were HP went from 190 to 207? This was done independently. I am suppying the INDEPENDENT lab info, what more can I do?

These adds are to help PREVENT problems and get the most out of your engine. You said you were not convinced you had a problem? Never said you did. LC and FP help prevent problems. Don't wait for a problem to arise before you do something.

more comments

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000311#000002

Instead of making this a one on one conversation, I think this discussion needs to be opened up. I am no expert. I do not put much stock in testimonials. I use a diesel fuel additive called Primrose. It is sold and promoted by one of the most respected experts on this forum. I have ONLY been discouraged from using oil additives of any kind. This discussion is now way over my head. I do not have the resources or the time to prove or disprove any claims. I will start the thread. Then we can start the debate on that thread. People should not have to go to "Wacky oil analysis to learn about your products. Regards, SPICER

I think wacky oil analysis is just where this belongs. Especially if LCD is just going to run after every poster who says something about oil and shout about useing his products. The best thing IMHO you can do is stay away from additives in the oil. If you overwork your truck or operate in extreme conditions then change your fluids more often. The whole purpose of useing a premium oil is the existing additive package. More is certainly not always better.

I would like to post a correction. George has notified me that a particle count on an oil analysis is $25. I misrepresented him by saying it was $100. A ferrographic is $100, a particle count is $25 over the normal spectrographic oil analysis. I am unsure if the particle count can be done separately for a flat $25. Hopefully George will chime in. I also appologize for misrepresenting his prices and services. George admits the particle count is not on his website at AVLube.com and will get it there soon.

At this price I will at some future time test my oil for particle count. This will tell me definitively how well my Oilguard is working. SPICER

WOW ! I hope he does chime in because I would certainly find that very usefull info. I don't think you missreprented anyone as apparently a lot of us have been under the same impression of the cost and type of test needed.