Hi guys:

I'm halfway through my harmonic balancer replacement but...

Accessory belts are off. Pulley is removed from the front of the harmonic balancer. But I cannot break the big bolt in the center of the balancer free.

I am really a newbie mechanic so there may be some simple shop wisdom I am missing here. I understand I need to prevent the crankshaft from rotating and I have tried to wedge a small metal bar in such a place that it prevents the crank from turning when I give 'er to the bolt but no dice.

One suggestion out there in the world is to fit a breaker bar over my socket wrench, wedge it against the frame somewhere and bump the starter over to break the bolt free.

Rather than screw something up with my inexperience, I figure I'd reach out for sage advice from people with a lot more hours under their vehicles.

Any suggestions (that a child could understand)?

uhm do NOT bump to break....get an impact gun...it'll work better...if you can't get a gun on it....try and really long breaker and a hammer....

Yes... I can see it now... Starter turns over, bolt breaks free, engine starts, balencer flys off, and now you need a new crank while you're at it.

If you're workin on an engine, such as WORKING on it REMOVING things, do yourself a favour, leave the key alone.

Just checking here guys...that bolt is leftty loosey..correct? I have to do mine soon and I just want to make sure.

Lefty loosey is correct. I just use my 1/2" impact wrench. Haven't had one that wouldn't come off yet. I'm with the guys on this one. Leave the key alone. Borrow or rent a 1/2" gun, my Ingersol-Rand pops 'em right off and it's old and tired, like me!

The balancer itself can be very hard to get off, but you can get a puller for them. The puller is invaluable ...


PS: Yes, the bolt turns 'the other way round'. Hm, if you can get a bolt of the same size but longer than the one for the balancer, you can use a nut and some washers on that bolt to push the balancer nice and straight onto the crankshaft. They are a tight fit. Once the balancer is in place, remove the installation bolt and use the stock bolt, tighten to 200 ft/lbs. Use a torque wrench on it and tighten to specification, you don't want the balancer to come off ... That's a _lot_ of torque, so you need to somehow prevent the crankshaft from turning, like a helper blocking the flywheel. (The military service manual also says you should put lubricating oil onto the threads of the bolt before tightening it.)

BTW, there is a seal on the crankshaft behind the balancer (where the crankshaft sticks through the timing chain housing). It may be worthwhile to replace this seal while you are at it; they wear out over time, but they are inexpensive. Service manual says to lubricate the seal on installation.

Thanks for all the comments.

I have no air compressor so I'm headed out for a breaker bar and will see if I can persuade it free with a few short snaps of a hammer.

The key thing sounded pretty risky. One guy who wrote about actually said the front of his truck lifted off the ground and he dug a half-inch hole in his garage floor. Sounds exciting. But I'm not looking for exciting when it comes to my beloved old truck.

Well, someone here wrote the starter usually draws 750 amps and twice that when blocked. 1500 amps at 12V would be about 13HP ...

With the right tools, it's an easy job. The most difficult thing was installing the new seal without damaging it.

We had a flywheel holding fixture at the gm dealership i worked for. If i remember correctly it was a GM tool and you took the starter out and it bolted on there, Then we had a 5 foot long torque wrench we used to remove/install the bolt.

EDIT:
I appologize i thought this was on a duramax. Impact gun would probably be your best bet in the particular case.

Remove the power from the IP, use your breaker bar and socket, lodge it so when you crank it over, it can't move and blip the starter. I have to do this at work numerous times as some vehicles, there either so old or on so tight its impossible to remove.

Oh, and if it starts, the balancer won't come off, its pressed on with some serious force.

Don't mess around trying to bump the starter. It could be done, but there are much easier and safer ways. Some tool places have electric impact guns you can rent, that would do it. The way I do it is generally by putting a bar between the pulley mounting studs and having somebody hold onto it while I break the bolt loose. The best way is with an impact.

0lee is correct, it might be worth changing the front crank seal while you are in there. Since you are installing a new balancer this would probably be a particularly good idea.

Don't mess around trying to bump the starter. It could be done, but there are much easier and safer ways. .

Nothing dangerous about it unless your holding the bar, ;)

The harmonic balancer is off. I needed to remove the access cover to the flywheel to safely lodge something in there to stop the engine from turning and the crank bolt came free without excessive pressure using a breaker bar.

I did buy the harmonic balancer removal took - $16.99 at Checker. It made the removal a snap.

Now, the timing cover seal is stuck tight so I'm reading up on a safe way to get it out without scratching the crank. Any suggestions?

Also, for the installation of the new harmonic balancer - I am not having luck finding a longer-than-stock version of the M16 x 1.5 bolt that you guys recommend as a way of starting the install before using the stock bolt. The suggestions for starting the HB without the proper tool or a long bolt is to use a wood or brass block and start it gently with a hammer. I'm cleaning the snout and HB with fine steel wool and will use a slather of fresh engine oil and expect to be okay or is this a "take however many days you need to find the bolt or proper tool rather than starting the HB any other way" moment?

The removal tool doubles as an installer as well as I recall...

You should be able to pry that seal out with a screwdriver pretty easily as I recall.

Now, the timing cover seal is stuck tight so I'm reading up on a safe way to get it out without scratching the crank. Any suggestions?


Put some WD40 on it and carefully use a screwdriver to get it out? The manual only says to pry it out so carefully that neither the crank, nor the crankcase cover get scratched.


I'm cleaning the snout and HB with fine steel wool and will use a slather of fresh engine oil and expect to be okay or is this a "take however many days you need to find the bolt or proper tool rather than starting the HB any other way" moment?Using a longer bolt makes it easier; using a block of wood and a hammer is what the manual suggests. The problem with the hammer-method is that you have to be careful not to damage the balancer, and I think it's easy to misalign it so that it will be hard to get it on.

You could put the balancer into an oven and carefully heat it a bit before installing it. The metal would expand a tiny bit, so that might help a little. But don't heat it too much, I've no idea what temperatures the rubber parts can take. --- Same is for the new gasket, it might help to freeze it to get it into the crankcase housing.

If I had the bolt here, I could mail it to you, but I left it in Germany, and I don't know what happened to it. Maybe I can get it, but not anytime soon ...

turbovanman...please don't reccomend dangerous back country mechanicking methods to our less apt members...some of them are liable to kill themselves based on your suggestions....safety is number one in my shop, and that means any engine work to be done, disconnect battery and take the ^%$#ing key away...

After taking all of your advice, I have decided to be as cautious as my instincts tell me to be.

I am not touching the key. HB is off through proper methods (see previous post). I went out and bought a proper seal removal tool and the old seal is out.

I'm just cursing the fact that I don't have a large enough socket or piece of pipe to drive the new seal in safely (by the book) so I have shelved the project for the day and will get the right piece of equipment to get the new seal in tomorrow. And I have rented a HB installer - super cheap and at my neighborhood Auto Zone - so no wood or brass blocks or oven time for me.

After all my fretting and attempting something without the proper equipment, it seems that any new project like this is going to add as much new equipment to my tool chest as it is knowledge and understanding of this old truck to my noggin.

And you know what? I am totally fine with that. The extra day and $50 extra bucks doing it slow and right is worth it.

Yep, a job done right is always a good thing... And if you learn from it so much the better right? :cool:

I ran into the same problem when I went to install my front seal. I just went real slow and gently tapped it in with a light hammer. Just worked my way around real slow and it went right in. But of course getting the proper tool works as well (and a socket or piece of pipe is cheap)...

gotta say i would go with the air impact or now electric impact for pulling that nut off but i got to fess up and i have used the starter method more than i can remember with out incident but after countless blunders and cuts , scars and close calls and middle age i have started down the road of buying the correct tools. still nursing a smashed finger nail from last weeks brake inspection nice and black should stop hurting anyday now. glad the job is coming along.

Ignorance breeds workplace death statistics.

I don't plan on being a statistic.
4 years of his classes and my auto shop teacher never taught us the "starter bump meathod". For a reason no doubt, I'm sure he knew about it, but I'm also sure he knew it's dangerous.

And what safety concious shop would allow employee's to do such actions?

Common sense people, "improper usage of tool may cause personal injury/death" don't we see this on just about every electrical/power tool and even some hand tools?
Isn't a starter motor a tool? :badidea:

Yeah, always use the right tool if you can, even if it means that you have to go back to the toolbox 20 times or so to get it. The right tool makes it so much easier, but without, it's no fun, takes longer, and you eventually break things and hurt yourself.

How does the installer tool look like? I didn't know that you can get a tool for that.

The 'rental' was free - I had to post $33 bucks in cash though.

good for you...the right way is the best way...even if it is slower...we tried to rush a caddy tranny job in the show today and needless to say we are screwed...engine and tranny are suspended in mid air by tranny jacks...and the engine is not attach to the car....car is in air...and nothing holding engine from leaving engine bay...needless to say tommorow will be a very careful day installing an engine brace from the top of the car...on a ladder...

The removal tool doubles as an installer as well as I recall...

.

The installer tool is totally different from the remover tool.


turbovanman...please don't reccomend dangerous back country mechanicking methods to our less apt members...some of them are liable to kill themselves based on your suggestions....safety is number one in my shop, and that means any engine work to be done, disconnect battery and take the ^%$#ing key away...

Oh please, its not backyarder at all, I am a professional mechanic, ask around how many of us use that trick for stuck or stubborn bolts. If done correctly, its simple and quick with no damage.




You could put the balancer into an oven and carefully heat it a bit before installing it. The metal would expand a tiny bit, so that might help a little. But don't heat it too much, I've no idea what temperatures the rubber parts can take. --- Same is for the new gasket, it might help to freeze it to get it into the crankcase housing.



NEVER EVER put the balancer in an oven, you'll destroy the rubber ring or elastomer.

Ignorance breeds workplace death statistics.

I don't plan on being a statistic.
4 years of his classes and my auto shop teacher never taught us the "starter bump meathod". For a reason no doubt, I'm sure he knew about it, but I'm also sure he knew it's dangerous.

And what safety concious shop would allow employee's to do such actions?

Common sense people, "improper usage of tool may cause personal injury/death" don't we see this on just about every electrical/power tool and even some hand tools?
Isn't a starter motor a tool? :badidea:

Again, see above.

I wonder how many guys jack up a car/truck and don't use jackstands but are condoning the crank over trick?

i ALWAYS use jack stands...and i know for FACT the WhiteK2500 does too, any proffesional mechanic would use the proper tools to do the job...anytime your doing engine work like that the battery should be disconnected anyways...and there's NEVER a need for bump starting...you may be licensed...but it's a piece of paper...the shop's i've worked at would fire you on the spot...i bet you use torches on gas tanks too... remind me not to come to you next time i need my diesel tank leak fixed...

NEVER EVER put the balancer in an oven, you'll destroy the rubber ring or elastomer.


That's why I said "carefully heat a bit". The balancer sits behind the radiator when installed and is somewhat being fanned with hot air most of the time. Does it not withstand operating temperatures when installed as well as when it's heated in an oven?


Stevemedcroft, thanks for the pics! $33 is probably the price for the installer to buy --- if I needed one and couldn't get anything else and none to rent, I'd probably buy one for that money rather than trying without. Did you get it all back together?

this thread sounds more and more like the pres. election stuff that i can't stand. how about taking it easy on one another before the moderators must step in.

I did get everything put back together. The seal was tough but a piece of 2" PVC helped me tap it into place square.

For all my effort locating the proper installer, the one thread/bolt size combo it did not come with was the M16 1.5 needed to install my harmonic balancer so I lubed the crank shaft and HB with clean oil, slipped it gently on as best I could, laid a short piece of 2x4 across the front and tapped the wood gently with a hammer. Really gently. Hardly any pressure at all.

The HB slid on far enough to get the new bolt in and tighten it down. Then came the hard part - getting that bolt up to proper torque spec.

The book says 200 foot pounds. The two torque wrenches I have access to tapped out at 140. So I went to 140 then put the breaker bar on and went three grunts further.

The new HB has eliminated the wobble at the nose of the crank but my truck still idles rough (got glow plugs, fuel leaks and fuel injectors on my project list). It also did not get rid of the alternator belt lash but the pulley mounted to the HB is not perfectly round and I'll live with the lash until I can replace that pulley as well.

I appreciate the comments of all the people who wrote in this thread. Especially the much-more experienced mechanics than me. This is the biggest thing I've ever done on a car so it's all new ground and your wisdom, sensibility and warnings are all taken seriously and much appreciated.

Now, off to the glow plug thread...

The new HB has eliminated the wobble at the nose of the crank but my truck still idles rough

How does the old balancer look like, has the rubber come out? I'm getting some vibrations that seem to come from the engine --- the balancer looks fine, but who knows if it's still working as it should ... Is there some way to tell?

Rough idle can be due to a bad lift pump. Mine was still pumping and priming the filters, but the fuel pressure must have been too low.

That is a good question. The rubber (the only visible rubber in the thing is on the engine-facing side between the outer and inner ring) is very slightly cracked in one place and very slightly bulging in another. That is the only discernible difference between it and the new balancer. Off the truck, it doesn't seem like much but I guess it was enough.

The way this all started - the way I could tell something was off with my old one - is that I could visibly see a wobble at the balancer with the engine idling (I peered through the engine compartment from the passenger side fender until I could just see the balancer in profile while at the same time seeing something stable in my line of sight and could pick up the movement back and forth of the balancer as it spun). I was told that the wobble could be a crank problem as well but it seems I got lucky and it was just a balancer with 235k miles on it.

Is a lift pump the same thing as the fuel pump? The one on the bottom, front of the engine on the passenger side? Mine is leaking. Only bad enough to wet the area and leave a quarter-sized puddle on my garage floor in 24 hours.

I do plan to replace it but thought I would do glow plugs first. Sounds like this (and I assume at the same time the secondary fuel filter and a bleed of the fuel system) should come first?

Hm, I'll have to do a thorough inspection of mine. I didn't think it might cause the problem until now, but it can very well be. Maybe they can even stop working just from age, like the rubber getting hard over time, making them loose their dampening properties.


Is a lift pump the same thing as the fuel pump? The one on the bottom, front of the engine on the passenger side? Mine is leaking. Only bad enough to wet the area and leave a quarter-sized puddle on my garage floor in 24 hours.


Yes, that's it. It's sometimes called fuel pump, mechanical pump or lift pump.

Is it leaking fuel or oil? If it's oil, it's possible that the bolts holding it to the block need to be tightened. If it's fuel, there might be leaking more while the engine is running and drives the pump.


I do plan to replace it but thought I would do glow plugs first. Sounds like this (and I assume at the same time the secondary fuel filter and a bleed of the fuel system) should come first?


When the lift pump doesn't work right, the injection pump has trouble to get enough fuel and has to work harder. That may damage the injection pump. I'm on the third pump since I got the truck about 1/2 year ago: The first one may just have worn out from so many miles on it, but a bad lift pump probably accelerates that. The second pump started leaking from the rear bottom of the pump housing. Maybe they made a mistake when it was rebuild; I can't tell because one of the injector lines wasn't tightened enough and leaked to begin with. After that was fixed, it turned out that the pump itself leaked from the bottom of the pump housing. It lasted maybe 800 or 1000 miles. With the third pump, I got a horribly rough idle. It improved after I replaced the injectors, but it still wasn't good. I got a new mechanical lift pump, but it turned out that I couldn't get the fuel line off the old pump without breaking something because the fitting was overtightened. I returned the pump and installed an electrical fuel pump instead, and that finally cured the bad idle. All the time, the old lift pump was priming the fuel filters just fine, so it seemed to be working ...

So if your pump is already leaking, fixing that should have high priority. Besides potential damage to the IP (and driveability issues), leaking fuel is a fire hazard. Just find out where exactly the leak is, it could be the pump, a fitting or a fuel line. Also check your oil; it's possible (but apparently unlikely) that the lift pump pumps fuel into the crankcase.

You can switch to an electrical pump or get a new mechanical one. The mechanical ones are cheap but somewhat tricky to install; the electrical ones are more expensive but have the advantage that they make it easier to prime the filters.

If you go for an electrical pump, it's a good idea the remove the mechanical pump and the pushrod that drives the pump. You can get a fuel pump blockoff plate/kit in a parts store for that.

Clean fuel filters can make quite a difference. It's important to replace them regularly. If you don't know how old the filters are, it's a good idea to change them along while your working on the fuel system anyway.

i ALWAYS use jack stands...and i know for FACT the WhiteK2500 does too, any proffesional mechanic would use the proper tools to do the job...anytime your doing engine work like that the battery should be disconnected anyways...and there's NEVER a need for bump starting...you may be licensed...but it's a piece of paper...the shop's i've worked at would fire you on the spot...i bet you use torches on gas tanks too... remind me not to come to you next time i need my diesel tank leak fixed...

Nevermind, its lost on you, I guess you do EVERYTHING by book, :rolleyes:

I guess your one of these guys that believes shooting a diesel car/truck and it blows up, :eek:

I have welded up diesel tanks on the truck thankyou very much due to thieves punching holes in the tank to steal the fuel, guess I am writing this from heaven, :o:

That's why I said "carefully heat a bit". The balancer sits behind the radiator when installed and is somewhat being fanned with hot air most of the time. Does it not withstand operating temperatures when installed as well as when it's heated in an oven?



An oven will produce and I guess direct the heat into the rubber whereas on the truck, it will never get that hot and has a flow of cooler air, ;)



Yes, that's it. It's sometimes called fuel pump, mechanical pump or lift pump.




When the lift pump doesn't work right, the injection pump has trouble to get enough fuel and has to work harder.

So if your pump is already leaking, fixing that should have high priority. Besides potential damage to the IP (and driveability issues), leaking fuel is a fire hazard. Just find out where exactly the leak is, it could be the pump, a fitting or a fuel line. Also check your oil; it's possible (but apparently unlikely) that the lift pump pumps fuel into the crankcase.



Fuel pumps are bolted to the block and aren't called lift pumps. Lift pumps are additional pumps put in the system to help out a fuel pump.

Diesel fuel isn't a fire hazzard unless you a have a couple thousand degree flame somewhere, ;)

diesel fuel is a fire hazard...if you get into an accident....the wires catch fire...and all of sudden some one pours diesel on your now flaming block cause the oil and other fluids lit up....it's just gonna get worse...fuel pump lift pump mechanical pump...we still know what he means...welding a fuel tank on a vehicle without putting water in is a bad idea i don't care who you are...and shooting a car/truck doesn't blow it up...just makes it holier than thou...once again...if you want to be assinine and do things the dangerous way thats fine, but how bout teaching your kids instead of innocent people you don't even know....i don't care how long you've been a mechanic....or how proffesional you are....doing things one way that you know how is fine, but reccomending a novice try something that could potentially kill them, is just careless and downright criminal....when someone on this forum doesn't log in ever again...i'll always wonder if they've killed themselves bump starting a bolt....

I should probably start a new thread about this leak but what I at first assumed was a leaking fuel pump (because of the amount of fuel down there) turns out to be something else.

I followed the fuel up to the # 1 cylinder injector. I sprayed it down with cleaner and got a mirror under the injector. When the engine is running, there was a drip, drip, drip coming from the fuel line connector.

I removed the connector, cleaner things up as best I could and tightened it back down. The leak is now simply weeping - a little moist around the bottom of the connector after a 20-minute drive with no accumulation.

Quick question - I tightened the connector 'reasonably tight (not cranking with the wrench but snugging it one more time after it got tight). I have seen people talk about not over tightening that connector (torquing it actually). How do you torque something that you can only get a box-end wrench on?

Also, I think I need to get one of those copper washers and deep well sockets to pull the injector out and re-seat - is that worth doing or is a seep something I can live with?

You mean it leaks where the fuel line is connected to the injector?

Taking the injector out and putting it back in won't help that. If the flare fitting on the fuel line is not cracked and the 'female' part on the injector is ok, you can try to tighten the flare nut some more. I think there is some risk of crushing the flare fitting by pressing it too much into the female part of the injector with the flare nut, but I don't know for sure what makes them crack or how they crack.

The service manual says the injector takes 50 lb-ft, the fitting takes 20 lb-ft.

50 is a lot, 20 is almost 1/2 that ...

And a small leak is a fire hazard as well.

I haven't looked at how feasible this would be, but I was curious why nobody mentioned hitting the stuck bolt with a bit of heat? Is it surrounded by rubber or is there another reason you shouldn't try this?

make sure it isn't one of those fuel return lines leaking. if they are old and brittle at the end they can split. if i had the leak at the fitting i would try removing the line again and cleaning it up making sure no junk gets into the lines or you will ruin your inj.

I haven't looked at how feasible this would be, but I was curious why nobody mentioned hitting the stuck bolt with a bit of heat? Is it surrounded by rubber or is there another reason you shouldn't try this?

you don't want to be heating bolts attached to the crankshaft....that can cause premature crankshaft failure....

always use heat as an absolute last solution....torches are dangerous to use and often damage and weaken parts they are used on...as such please try impacting, and using pentrating fluids first....if the impact wants to get it but can't quite...try going back and forth and slowly working the fastener out....applying heat to many components is asking for trouble, especially around the engine bay area....if you MUST use heat...get a chemical called Kul-Therm and apply to areas around where the torch will be that may be harmed by fire...such as harness and wiring...but if you use a torch on a flywheel or crankshaft bolt(harmonic balancer as well), make sure you replace any heat affected components if you want the engine to be happy

diesel fuel is a fire hazard...if you get into an accident....the wires catch fire...and all of sudden some one pours diesel on your now flaming block cause the oil and other fluids lit up....it's just gonna get worse...fuel pump lift pump mechanical pump...we still know what he means...welding a fuel tank on a vehicle without putting water in is a bad idea i don't care who you are...and shooting a car/truck doesn't blow it up...just makes it holier than thou...once again...if you want to be assinine and do things the dangerous way thats fine, but how bout teaching your kids instead of innocent people you don't even know....i don't care how long you've been a mechanic....or how proffesional you are....doing things one way that you know how is fine, but reccomending a novice try something that could potentially kill them, is just careless and downright criminal....when someone on this forum doesn't log in ever again...i'll always wonder if they've killed themselves bump starting a bolt....

Are you honestly being serious? Diesel fuel will NOT ignite using a blow torch, aceteylene torch etc. You need to really do some research. Ever watch Mythbusters? I welded the tank up and guess what, NO FIRE, I wonder how that can be? I've also tried to ignite diesel using torches and go figure, NO FIRE. :rolleyes:

you don't want to be heating bolts attached to the crankshaft....that can cause premature crankshaft failure....

always use heat as an absolute last solution....torches are dangerous to use and often damage and weaken parts they are used on...as such please try impacting, and using pentrating fluids first....if the impact wants to get it but can't quite...try going back and forth and slowly working the fastener out....applying heat to many components is asking for trouble, especially around the engine bay area....if you MUST use heat...get a chemical called Kul-Therm and apply to areas around where the torch will be that may be harmed by fire...such as harness and wiring...but if you use a torch on a flywheel or crankshaft bolt(harmonic balancer as well), make sure you replace any heat affected components if you want the engine to be happy


Gee, wonder how using another way could avoid using damaging heat? :rolleyes:

think your best bet would be to have a helper hold the flywheel w/ a med-prybar while you break the bolt free....yes a hamer may help you to break it free if realy tough there is a tool for useing a impact hammer w/air hammer the tool could be used w/ regular hammer aslo I believe.

turbovanman...your going to be the next winner of the darwin award with that attitude....diesel is a fuel and while it may not ignite in liquid form...same as gasoline...all it needs to do is hit a temperature at which it turns to a vapor and then the vapors will ignite...violently so...so adding diesel to an already hot block...which cause diesel fumes...will the allow a flame to ignite said diesel fumes...mythbusters only shows that shooting a fuel tank will not ignite it...and hmmm maybe an impact gun or what everyone but you has been saying....DO NOT BUMP START TO REMOVE BOLTS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES...AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WILL I CONDONE DRIVING WITH A FUEL LEAK....

FredBlazingCamaro's advice is what got mine free.

I removed the inspection cover from the back of the engine. I had to drain the oil and remove the filter to get something to wedge in the flywheel up against the transmission case (it was simply in the way for the large flat-head screwdriver I used).

A medium breaker bar did set the bolt free without too much trouble once the flywheel was immobilized.