Here are my sheets from a brand new Mustand eddy current dyno.

Ambient was around 70, fan on the intercooler(although it doesn't do much).

Here they are...

Stock

http://www.fleeceperformanceengineering.com/images/TST%20Dyno%20Stock%20Resize.jpg


Edge on full boogie no defuel, Analog Pyro in the manifold hit 1450.

http://www.fleeceperformanceengineering.com/images/TST%20Dyno%20Edge%20Resize.jpg

I'm no expert, but:

That first one says: 251 HP, 442 Tq, the second 348 HP, 686 Tq

Those numbers are right in line with LLY performance.....

I take it you were using 125HP Juice on the second run.




Tom http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=107

a mustang dyno reads lower than a Dyno Jet dyno... the mustang dyno is calculated with actual weight and temps where as the dyno jet is only running against a drum.

example.. friends new Cobra is 390 factory.. on a Mustang dyno reads 315rwhp while a Dyno Jet will read 350-360.

the mustang dyno is more real world horsepower versus just a number with a dyno jet.

Well I just put these numbers up because burner was disputing the fact that my truck only made 211 lb/ft @ 2000 rpms. I have the Raw Data output, which I got that number from. I figured the graph would tell the story just as well.


Bottom line, they need some serious help on the low end. Like the TTS Tow tune or predator.

If you START measuring at 2000 RPM (stock) how do you expect very low end RPM torque numbers?
With the edge the measuring curve starts at least at 1800 RPM....

Just my 2C

I started measuring there, because that is the lowest RPM that I could go, before the tranny shifted out of direct. :rolleyes:

Plus, why does it matter where you start measuring.. If I would've started the test earlier the numbers would've been worse. Doesn't make much sense to me. We've tested 2 of them with identical results. The other was worse than mine since it was bone stock, no exhaust etc.

Not sure if you've been on the dyno or not, but you've got the truck rolling along, at a nice pace then you just roll on it, whenever the dyno sees the correct parameters (i.e. rpm or mph) then the test window starts. So the truck is under a certain amount of load (the roller inertia) the whole time, and when you lay into it from 1500 rpm or so the truck spools up spins the motor to 2000 rpm, in my case, and then begins the load test. So it wouldn't have mattered much if it was started at 1800 or 1500 even, the throttle was on the floor.

I'm sure someone else will chime in as I am far from a dyno expert......but to get the actual numbers that are seen on the truck on the road graphed on a dyno, wouldn't you have to do a pull down test. Dynoing like you posted above, you are not seeing the actual load until the turbo spools up. On the street, the truck makes more boost down low when it is loaded as opposed to just rolling it on the dyno at 1500-1800rpms and then laying into it, the boost isn't there...so neither is the power.

I don't think you get it.. the truck has to stay in 4th gear to be an accurate test... below that rpm.. it downshifts.. which is no good. So you get the truck rolling then mash the pedal, which is kind of cheating anyways. If you had the truck in 4th locked with a scan tool or something, then you could load it down from idle if you wanted, but 2g's is what mine downshifts at on the dyno so there ya go.. There are plenty of REAL (mustang) dyno sheets on here that look just like mine. Yeah it's a good motor but it's gutless down low. Plenty of people are working on a cure, sit back and watch.

from what i can tell, if you would start at a lower rpm, like dipper says, the motor would have some time to spool up, and make the 400 plus tq

brayden, i see what your saying about starting the test at a rated speed, so it does not downshift,i had to do it as well, but i feel if you were able to start test at a lower rpm, you would see diferent tq readings than 211 when spolled up, looking at mine in less than 50 rpm(start of the test) it was back at 450lbs of tq, which i feel was the time it took to spool up, also done on a mustang dyno:ro) http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL22/566829/847939/76758470.jpg

not to take away from this thread but the numbers that the edge is putting out is kind of weak dont ya think ? 348 hp ?? my truck put out 322 on the TTS Tow Tune alone !

well, on my truck it put out the claimed 120/250 but yeah your always wanting more :)

Comparing #'s from different dynos on different days is fruitless, however, my truck layed down 373rwhp and began to slip the trans at the ~700rwft/lb mark on level 5 before recovering. I believe stock ECM, -cat, 4" TTS exhaust was 265rwhp, can't remember exact #'s, I will post the dyno sheets from J/K's "Lie Detector" when I get home. John's procedure is very consistent/repeatable so maybe a fairer comparison would be my truck to his new LLY.

JK- Do you still have my runs?

I will be very happy when someone finds the torque in the LLY. 590 ftlbs at 1600, not. The LB7 was way closer to the claimed power peak. The "real world" power of the LLY is low (roll on passing, low rpm pulling) and the SOTP dyno feels it and so do others. I think GM has a nice engine from Isuzu (noted for low rpm, economical power, in the industrial world), but had to detune because of the weak link in the trans. The 1000 series Allison is rated for 520 ftlbs from design and if the motor was delivered as designed the warranty claims from daily rat racers would be huge. The way that GM detuned gives a very gradual build up in power to protect the trans, which leads to the problems in the LLY that owners are experiencing ( overheating, high rpm power; poor fuel mileage, need rpm to get it going; surging at low throttle and rpm, GM's funny programing and the engine wanting to go). I miss the "real world" power of my past Cummins motors (but getting use to it). I also miss being in control of that power with my foot (instead of the computor), but getting used to it. The rush from a real turbo diesel as the load spools the turbo and the engine starts to torque, is why I became addicted to a small diesel in a pickup as my daily driver 15yrs ago. I want it back, so programmers, get to work and I'll give you the money. I know, if I had the motor that Isuzu designed, the tranny would not be a problem with me in control of the throttle, but that would probably not be true for the masses from GM's point of view. All this, of course, is IMHO. Had a dream, Dodge and Chevy trucks humping in a field and out came the truck of my dreams, but then I woke and had to go to work. Thanx Geo.

Isn't the LLY wth the ally detuned in 1st and 5th gears to 520 lb. ft. of torqe at the flywheel?

yes

Why do these guys waste so much space on the charts for these? Starting way down at 1000 RPM and ending at 4,000 makes no sense at all. Totally ruins the shape of the curve, not that I've ever been a fan of Mustang's "crayola" plotting.

I have 244HP and 448 TQ as stock on my 2005...

I had 251/442 totally stock as well, and thank you for the support. Guess you're the only one people will listen to..

does any one know what the lly makes at 1400 to 2500 rpm for tq, might need a manuel tranny to accomplish, put this thread to rest

The point of a broad spread torque readout is to show driveability. Who cares if you have 1000ftlbs at 2700rpm. You have a 5spd tranny not 13spd. In a drag race or a long pull it is your torque spread that takes you from gear to gear and that relates to who gets there first. Any professional truck driver will tell you that. Larger torque spread, less shifting, first to the top of the hill. Mr. Kennedy, I don't know how you could develope any product without knowing this. Thanks Geo.

Ouch!

The point of a broad spread torque readout is to show driveability. Who cares if you have 1000ftlbs at 2700rpm. You have a 5spd tranny not 13spd. In a drag race or a long pull it is your torque spread that takes you from gear to gear and that relates to who gets there first. Any professional truck driver will tell you that. Larger torque spread, less shifting, first to the top of the hill. Mr. Kennedy, I don't know how you could develope any product without knowing this. Thanks Geo.
Please take a look at the Mustang charts, and you will see that the chart begins way before the test window occurs, and continues well past it. This is poor software setup and not only wastes space, but artificially "smoothes" the curve. Look at my Superflow charts, and you'll see that they begin just prior to the start of the test window and end shortly after. The cahart is also vertically taller and puts more emphasis on the plot and less emphasis on the vehicle details, and shop/dyno mfr advertising...

http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=564&stc=1





Test begins at approx 1500RPM and ends just across 3k, but there's no flat line BS from 0 to 2200RPM and 3200-4000, or 5,000 like the Mustang plots. Having these ranges included in the chart bunches the plot up over a very narrow area...

Well I just put these numbers up because burner was disputing the fact that my truck only made 211 lb/ft @ 2000 rpms. I have the Raw Data output, which I got that number from. I figured the graph would tell the story just as well.


Bottom line, they need some serious help on the low end. Like the TTS Tow tune or predator.
Throw out the data on the "upswing" of the Mustang curve. The Mustang does not at present have a test written that allows you to preload and hold a steady speed, so the 2000 RPM data is in the middle of turbo spoolup. Rest assured, that at 2k you are well over 420 RWTQ...

I don't dispute the torque #'s at a specific rpm (but the dyno operator can tune those numbers to his preference). I have 100's of hrs of dyno time (chassis and engine) developing 2-stroke and four stroke motors for racing and production. There are dynos and there are real dynos. Visit a good quality truck engine rebuilder and watch a fresh rebuild (real diesel engine) sit at full load for a 12hr shift to lightly break in, then another 12hr shift while the tech tunes in the electronics for trans, rear end ratio, tire size, driver preference (within manufacturer specs sometimes), fuel use, and emissions. You will be impressed with the ajustabilty of a modern commercial diesel stock. Then pay a visit to a real dyno at a factory (lots more of the money) and you will be more impressed. The spread of torque is the most important information when picking trans ratios and final ratios when designing a package for production or racing. Conversely, when starting backwards (already have a rear ratio and trans ratios in place), the spread of torque (torque is what accelerates you) will tell you which tune will pull the best. You need a large enough number to pull the load (not a problem with these engines in our light trucks with their low gearing, relative to a commercial application) and you need a large enough spread of peak torque to pull shift to shift. We only have a 5spd, so we need a larger spread of torque than a 6spd would need. The lower the rpm of peak torque the better the fuel mileage will be because your engine can lollygag up to speed but still be pulling hard. The reason we don't get this package from the manufacturers is warranty (rip that rear end out at 1200rpm) and liability (tire contact patch, watch them smoke) but we all want it. The ability of a turbo diesel to make a large flat torque curve at low rpm is the reason they are used as pulling rigs and deliver good mileage (compounded by the ability to cruise at high air to fuel ratios). That is why I like to see a full torque curve. I realize the expense of a quality dyno and don't intend to berate anyones efforts, but the lower rpm numbers and shape of the curve are very important in my choice of upgrades. I want the ability to rip my drive train apart at 1600rpm and smoke my tires with simple throttle roll on (but I won't I don't think he he). Thanx Geo.

Yes I realize that once the turbo spools there is good power there.. Therein lies the problem, shouldn't a VGT spool up in hurry. There's just a point where you mash it and nothing really happens. I know this is different (mechanical vs electronic) but hop in an 12v dodge and blip the throttle and you get whiplash, even if it's equipped with that joke they call an auto trans. I think that the LLY needs serious improvement on the bottom, and a tighter convertor too. And what's up with the serious power derating in 4lo. I use 4 lo to drag heavy (18,000 lb) trailers through the muck on the jobsite and 4 lo is a must. There is no low end torque in 4 lo, at least in my truck. It just doesn't do anything for about 3 seconds and then finally moves.

Anyways, Rant mode over. I'd just like to drive an LLY like it was intended to be, before all the derating, emissions, etc.

Oh and that nasty little problem (P1093 I think it is) happened again last night.. Lost about half the injectors electronically and couldn't reset it with the scan tool, had to disconnect both plugs at the ECM for 5 minutes. Then it worked fine..

Crazy

Hope my 05 is better.

I just ran my truck on a Dyno Jet. I was pretty dissapointed by the numbers I posted. I got 214.5 hp and 375 ft/lbs. Im basically totally stock other than my exhaust. I thought this truck should have been posting closer to 270-300hp. Maybe my expectations were too high. Whats everyone think about these numbers. Is this normal or is something wrong? Im not very experienced nor knowledgable on Dynos.

Geo,

Jannetty Racing posted the following from a Superflow dyno: I have August built 05 Crew cab dually, dynoed on my Superflow at 244 hp 444 torque.
I did the reflash and redynoed at 252 hp 460 torque.

These numbers place the reflashed 04.5 LLY's with the new 05's. Is the Superflow dyno one that meets the criteria you gave below? Can we trust these numbers? JJ :)

Thanx JJ I'll ask to have the reflash done again. It's only 5 more days till I call GM the 5th time about my surging and knocking. I'll tell them this. thanx geo.

Geo, glad to help. Is the Superflow dyno one that you would considerable reliable, I'm following up on the conversation you and JK had about them. If you've been following the LLY reflash thread you know we are all over the place with numbers, rumors, etc. :o Just trying to nail this down a bit. JJ :)

Don't think so JJ. Less expensive dynos (still not cheap) have quite a error factor (5to10%) due to variables (no climate room, correction factors, operator loading time). The comparison has to be same day, same operator, same technique. It could be done but why? The SOTP dyno is the only thing that counts. These trucks have plenty of power stock, it only matters if YOU like the power delivery. It,s always possible to put more there if YOU want (including ME). The difference in 10 or 20ftlb out of 450ftlbs is tough to measure even on a expensive dyno and the SOTP is real tough. Now, if somebody lowered the stock torque curve to the claimed 590 at1600rpm, your SOTP dyno would pucker and go wow! thanx geo.