People post questions regarding towing heavy on the forum and we provide responses with absolutely no background or knowledge of their driving or towing skill. This can be dangerous! :confused:

Guys that have extensive experience towing heavy OR who operate heavy rigs with a CDL have extensive experience towing heavy, but giving advice to a towing novice can be a disaster waiting to happen. :o It is obvious to me when the heavy towers who know what they are talking about describe towing conditions that scare the "wajeebees" out of the rest of us. They are in their comfort zone based upon their skill and knowledge, we are out of ours because we lack that same skill and knowledge.

Hopefully we can all agree that just because someone has the money to purchase a 3500 dually that can tow 16-18k lbs, if they don't have the experience towing light/medium loads, they are likely not ready to get on the roads towing heavy with the big rigs? :eek:

QUESTION:confused: Should we ask people to describe or designate their driving/towing skill before we provide advice, especially for towing heavy! :)

I like the KISS rule: keep it simple stupid! 3 levels: Beginner (little, if any, towing experience of any kind; Intermediate (experience towing loads up to 10k lbs; experience using/adjusting electric brakes on dual/triple axle trailers, RV's, etc.); Advanced (experience towing heavy loads over 10k lbs; experience with proper load distribution, strapping down loads, experience with DOT over-the-road requirements; CDL licensed.

No pride of authorship on this, just planting a seed. I for one would feel better knowing the advice I'm giving is in capable, qualified hands. Others may feel differently. Whatcha think? JJ :)

JJ has a good idea. A bit of pedigree info couldn't hurt. Just because our trucks can pull an enormous load doesn't necessarily mean we know what we're doing with it. I have a good friend who is an OTR trucker and is amazingly skilled at what he does, yet even he confesses bewilderment when it comes to the ins and outs of heavy conventional trailers and WD hitches towed behind pickups and SUVs.

Even though my trailer grosses 11,700lbs, I'm definitely still on the steep side of the intermediate learning curve using JJ's criteria.

TC

JJ

I think it is a wonderful idea, but ... It will be difficult to prove one's claims, without some explanation, and even harder to verify, so we'll just have to take one's word for it, therefore let's be honest folks (keep it real, there are folks here that actually know the difference, and will call you on it).

Heavy towing and lifting training: US Navy, late 1973, Aviation Boatswain's Mate (Handling), Lakehurst, NJ. Capacities up to 100,000 #.

Hot-Shot business after retirement in 96. Delivery of new trailers, boats, livestock equipment, etc. (anything that can be towed and pays by the mile).

Schneider National Carrier (Intl. COE pumpkin trucks), Van division, logged over a million miles (log books available).

Got off the road in 2002 to persue Master's in Information Technology and Internet Security degrees, to be completed in Apr. 2005, with GI-bill (and an angel of a wife to keep the truck payments up).

Will continue to do recreational towing for as long as I am physically able to, since it is a hard habbit to kick ;) .

I maintain my CDL Class-A, DOT physical, base plates and ICC lic.

By your definition I will say that I am "experienced".

RF3, you definitely weren't one of the posters I was ever concerned about! ):h Most of us that post on a regular basis can tell the "beginners" from the "advanced". My concern was we may be posting advice that is prudent for our skill level but may be well above the skill level of the person asking the question. BTW, no one can ever accuse you of being lazy! :D Very impressive credentials.

If someone misrepresents their skill levels when posting then they are doing a disservice to themselves. Our conscious will be clear! It would be nice if there were a way people could designate this once so each time they post we know their experience level. Uh, moderator? JJ :)

Good Idea to me!!

Class A CDL For 10 years maybe 500000 + miles Tanker Endorsement Flat Bed Experience
15 Years of trailering my own trailers all over 10000 lbs+ some even 20000lbs+
My first trailer was a 4'X8' Flat bed lol.....Weight 800 lbs. Pulled it with a VW Bus!

By Your definition I will say that I am " Intermediate ++"

GG, I'm bumping you up to advanced dude! Congratulations! :D

We will have to tweak the rating levels some. I didn't intend that you had to have each of the qualifications in each category, they are moreso representative of a particular skill level. So far you and RF3 are advanced, I'm placing myself into the intermediate level even though I tow heavier than 10k lbs with the 5ver. Personally I don't consider my recreational use equivalent to commercial towing or heavy rig stuff like the advanced. Best to err on the conservative side. :o

The designator is for people posting towing questions moreso than to validate DP members qualifications. I just thought it was safer for us to provide advice tailored specifically to someones stated towing skill and experience. If DP members want to post their level that is fine. Fingers, you are advanced so I'll save you a post. ):h RickDLance, you to! ;)

It would be nice if people had to self-identify before posting any towing questions for the first time, OR have DP members identify their towing skill in their initial registration for others to view. This would serve as a screening tool for all of us. Main goal in all of this is to ensure we give the right advice whenever possible. JJ :)

500,000 miles in the last 4 years. Generators for Sprint, and then on to Doubles & Triples. Have 34 foot flatbed 3 axle and 49 foot wedge 3 axle. Class A CDL, DOT medical card, full 50 state DOT authority & MC#. $100,000 cargo insurance on each truck, and $750,000 commercial liability. Most of the time we tow at 26,000 gross or below. Have been over 32,000 gross and will not do it again. Even with good brakes on 5 axles it's not safe. The electric brakes most off us use are not that reliable.

Main goal in all of this is to ensure we give the right advice whenever possible. JJ :)

The best advice I've ever gotten was to anticpate the drivers moves in front of, next to, or behind you. Picture them doing the dumbest thing possible and leave yourself enough room to safely avoid a problem. Know the limitations of your truck and take it easy.:cool:

Started driving big rigs hauling grain 20 years ago.
2 yrs. O/O w/ flatbed/covered wagon hauling iron (hauling 56,000# single coils will give u gray hair running I-77 from Cleveland to S. Carolina)
2 yrs. O/O w/ 7 axle semi dump hauling asphalt, gravel, grain, millings, salt (u heard the dump bucket moto 'heavy,fast and CHEAP') max 130,000 GVW.
Excavator business owner 16 yrs. hauling all kinds of stuff.
Max of 16k behind many Dmax 2500s.

Let's see. By your info given, you are towing an 18000 lb trailer with your dually which must weigh @7000 lb, That's 25000. Isn't the max combined safety weight rated somewhere around 22500 by GM? And you want to be the site's internet cop and put everybody else into a "qualification" category before they're allowed to ask questions about towing? I dearly want to ask "who the hell made you God" but I'd rather just ask you to keep your nose where it belongs-out of the business of others. If you want to answer somebody's towing questions, just do it. If you feel the person is not qualified, no sweat- just don't start typing. Believe it or not, some of us will survive just fine without it.

OUCH Zip! :eek: Obviously I should have done a better job of choosing my words. Internet Cop, God? I'm humbled! In case anyone else misinterpreted my post I am only interested in ensuring we give "the right advice based upon the persons driving skills and ability coupled with their tow vehicle". I just didn't feel prudent giving out towing advice to someone I knew absolutely nothing about. Safety, everyones!

The guys that tow really heavy would not advise less experienced drivers to strap a heavy load onto their trucks and head up deadmans pass just because the truck can pull it. :confused: In essence this is what we've been doing. I only made a suggestion, one that I felt added a level of assurance when giving out towing advice, especially heavy towing!

You are correct on my GCWR, actually I thought I had posted that on this thread, but it is in my profile. I'm well within my driving experience, the rig's capabilities, etc. the few times I'm at 25k lbs. Now would I strap 25k lbs behind my truck, no, but not because my truck can't pull it, many guys on the site do, I just don't consider myself experienced enough with that kind of weight to be on the roads with it to manage it safely. But who would know that? Get the point?

Didn't mean to flame anyone, just add a level of safety when we answer towing questions. That was the only intent of the post. Nothing personal Zip! Later. JJ :)

JJ's just trying to protect us guys that don't tow much from biting off more than we can chew. Zip, if you had never pulled a 5er, would you want someone telling you its a piece of cake, just "go for it", or giving you beginner's advise you can understand? I vote the latter.

JJ -- Even though I've towed a 5er a couple times, that does not mean I'm experienced by any means! I would most certainly put myself in the "Beginner's" class.

I applaud your effort, JJ.

Tom http://dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=107

Yeah JJ!!!

Who died and left you in charge, you...tow bully!

I'm rolling ON THE FLOOR! LMAO:D

Dang mosquito! Where did I put that bug spray? ):h Always glad to entertain "Da Boyz"! :rolleyes:

I don't mind getting flamed if it brings safety to the forefront in our discussions. Although I do kinda like "JJ-Internet Cop"! :D Later. JJ :)

Your doing fine JJ. I think a little history behind who's giving the advise helps to back the advise. I've towed all sorts of 'RV' rigs and would put myself in the intermediate class. 'BUT', that's only limited to RV's! My advise outside of that is completely beginner.

P.S. It looks like we have the same comfort level with what our trucks can pull!

TT

Take it easy on JJ fellas. He only had the "gumshion" to state what many of us were thinking, after reading a few hundred posts that we did not feel comfortable with.

Hip, Hip, Hurray for JJ.

I've been a water safety and sailing instructor for over 20 years. I teach begginners to competitive yatch racing out of Annapolis. I've gone as high as having a Spanish 470-Class cup on my mantle peice for 1987, but had to quit racing soon after that, due to physical limitations that are service related.

I take the same safety approach on the road as I teach on the water. When leaving port, make sure that the weather is not going to change on you, because fair weather sailer and fair weather haulers face similar hazards. When a storm comes along, experience will get you back to safe harbor before a new ship-owner's wallet every time. If you doubt this, call Sea-Tow, and they will be glad to enlighten you with their statistics...they are the experts...they risk their lives and equipment everytime it storms to save new-money millionaires with lost, beached, capsized, or de-masted yatchs. Like non-commercial towing, the law does not require a special licence to take one of these things out on the water, and no-one does blood-alcohol level checks untill someone dies.

Non-commercial towing is basically unregulated. There are few "towing cops" out there to ensure that you are remaining within safety limits, with the exception of high mountain passes out west, so it is up to us to police ourselves. If we don't, then the government will have to, as the number of RV'ers towing heavy rigs with improperly equiped vehicles are growing every year, and so are the rates of accidents/incidents seen by the Highway Patrols. We all know what happens when the Feds get a hold of something, taxes and use fees come in to fund it, then lawyers sit down and start legislating laws based on statistics, not experience....and the whining begins.

Therefore, thank you JJ for looking out for the rest of us (or trying to). Some of us here understand the "intent" of this thread quite well, and you won't hear us whine about "civil rights", "privacy", or where your nose is.

Have you ever seen JJ's nose?

Glad to see the original intent was understood by most. RF3/TT/BAC, thanks!;)

MP2, shutup! ):h JJ :)

Guys,

I don't think it matters what you say to some people.. they will still continue to pull what ever weight they want to... there are just some that can't be edumacated on safer towing...

If they could haul 10 tons in a pickup they would. just to say they could... but then why do they make class 8 trucks??

ME.. I have my class A... I have hauled 20K trailers... I know what I am comfortable with ..

The other half maybe that with age some of us have become a little more reserved in our thinking of what we can and can not do.. as we have wifes and kids.. and want to get home to see them.. I know I think completely differently now than when I was 20.... but that is just me!

That is my .02 ..and I am sticking to it

Pete

JJ- I apologize for my outburst. it was in poor taste and I should have been more gracious, as you are, in saying what I want to say.
I am not an enemy of road safety. At 56, I've seen enough to learn a little bit about right and wrong, on the roads and off. What I meant to say is - I don't need to be pre-qualified before I post on this site. As with most other members, I feel like I'm smart enough to judge my own abilities and lack of.
I don't post often but do read many of the posts. I've been around a while. As far as I can remember, this is the 1st 'whining" I ever did. I hope this puts my thoughts in a more proper perspective than my 1st attempt. I do applaud your efforts.

Zip, nuff said - apology accepted! :) JJ

pushover

Only nasty mosquitos go for blood! Where's the raid? JJ ):h

i need an official JJ rating here.
8 years experience towing small landscape trailers
5 years experience driving straight trucks at 73,280#
5 years experience towing GCW 80,000#
Experience hauling wide (14') loads
Experience hauling overweight loads 100,000#
Cdl Class A with air endorsement
Extensive knowlege of truck and trailer air and electric braking systems.
Never towed over 10k behind a light duty truck aka my 3500

Chevmeister, that depends! Are you left or right handed? ):h Am I the only one that thinks your level is fairly obvious?

When I originally posted this I was suggesting that those "asking the questions" post their level of towing expertise moreso than those individuals providing the answers. We all know our towing expertise and could then weigh our answers moreso to that persons driving skills. However, I'm finding it nice to know each persons level of towing skill. If I'm going to tow a particular load I can access this thread and see who has experience with that type of load. :)

It might be a good idea to have an area on the DP, or a post like this, where guys can indicate their towing skills for others to access. This thread is likely to float to the back over time. Hmm? Any ideas? JJ :)

what do i get for 42 years of haulin my ass out of bed...:D

HeavyHardware,

That would depend on the size of the load your hauling, and how far you haul it, does'nt it?

If it requires a CDL, then your a pro but make an appointment with your doctor ASAP.

<< ;^ )

RF3, nicely said! :D

HH, that sounds more like "lifting" experience rather than "heavy towing"! ):h Since everyone has to haul their ass out of bed in the morning, even the rice burners, I would put you in the beginner category pending submission of some form of towing experience, which I have a sneaky suspicion you have. :p Later, JJ :)

All,
Well, time to test your theories and see if the advice works! (Hehehe). Okay, I'm a 19 year Navy Seabee Equipment Operator. Suffice to say I've hauled a few miles of OTR, including heavy and oversize loads. I will say that I'm fairly INEXPERIENCED with towing RV's. Wife and I recently rented a 29' TT rated at 10k full. My '04LLY had zero problems hauling.

I just purchased a 2005 Raptor 3018 Toyhauler. This is a bumper pull, not FW. The sticker on the frame reads 13000lb maxed out. Although I doubt I have enough toys to get it fully loaded, I don't have any doubt that the wife will try like heck to fill it to the gills. SOooooo:
Question 1: Will the factory reciever hitch at 12k be "safe"? (My guess is NO.)
Q#2: Quality/cost efficient Class V hitch
Q#3: Quality/cost efficient W/D assembly

I've done a little reading (RV.NET forum, etc) and have seen a HUGE variation. I'd like a 14,000lb setup. ANY advice would be HUGELY appreciated. I live in San Diego and would like to purchase locally if any of you know the area. Otherwise internet is fine.

Thanks!

Marbee40

Welcome to the DP Shipmate. Have'nt had a chance to talk to an EO in may years (Ret. USN). I know what you're talking about. Was an AB, driving Fire & Rescue, ambulance, R/W maintenance equipment and Crash Cranes in my early 20's while in Italy. Great OTR exeperience, and sea-stories. Also drove OTR as O/O for Schneider National after retirement. More s/s there.

My vote for the Class V is with REESE. Heavy duty throughout and no mods required to mount up to a GM truck. Mail-order from JC Witney and do the mechanics yourself.

As far as W/D, I've used the Reese also (for Class V there is a limited choice), and the "friction-type" of sway control is the easiest to install and maintain.

I recommend the sway control (even if you may not need it all the time) because toy haulers have variable weight distribution depending on what you're putting in them from one trip to the next. If you find yourself a bit tongue light, then the S/C will be a god-send, until you can unload or reposition it.

But others may have different recommendations.

Good luck.

Well said flyer!
For those of us with toyhaulers (actually, any trailer within it's range), a recomendation.

http://www.sherline.com/lm.htm

I'll be picking up one of these myself shortly. Perfect way to make sure you stay within the 10%-15% for hitch weight no matter if your taking extra items or not.

Sorry if this is a little :offtopic: .

Chuck

i stubbed my tow once.

All,
Well, time to test your theories and see if the advice works! (Hehehe). Okay, I'm a 19 year Navy Seabee Equipment Operator. Suffice to say I've hauled a few miles of OTR, including heavy and oversize loads. I will say that I'm fairly INEXPERIENCED with towing RV's. Wife and I recently rented a 29' TT rated at 10k full. My '04LLY had zero problems hauling.

I just purchased a 2005 Raptor 3018 Toyhauler. This is a bumper pull, not FW. The sticker on the frame reads 13000lb maxed out. Although I doubt I have enough toys to get it fully loaded, I don't have any doubt that the wife will try like heck to fill it to the gills. SOooooo:
Question 1: Will the factory reciever hitch at 12k be "safe"? (My guess is NO.)
Q#2: Quality/cost efficient Class V hitch
Q#3: Quality/cost efficient W/D assembly

I've done a little reading (RV.NET forum, etc) and have seen a HUGE variation. I'd like a 14,000lb setup. ANY advice would be HUGELY appreciated. I live in San Diego and would like to purchase locally if any of you know the area. Otherwise internet is fine.

Thanks!
To give my humble opinion to a fellow squid ):h , I'll try to answer your questions as to what I would do or have done.

Q1 - You're correct, go with you gut.

Q2 - Resse Titan Class V is my choice and contrary to the installation instructions, you don't have to modify the tire carrier to make it fit. There are other Class V's out there and Hidden Hitch would be another. JMO.

Q3 - I run a Reese Strait-Line hitch set-up. Very easy to hook up and Maintain. Pulls like a dream. Equalizier is another set-up but I like the Reese design better.

Hope that helps.

My neighbor is a long hauler......really nice guy....nice nieghbor.....but I wouldn't trust him to haul a brick in a wheelbarrow. He knows little of his equipment and has very little common sense. Is this an indictment of truckers....No.... but it's an illustration that they are just like you & I.......some of them really know their trade and others are clueless. Just watch them on the highway and you can get an idea of those who are aware of the basic laws of physics and those who are not. Putting a "trucker" label on doesn't mean a person knows his trade. I think most of us are able to read the posts....any posts...and get a fair idea of it's quality and this isn't any different than anything else......go to several home depots and ask the same question in each and see how many different answers you get.....some of them are laughable....no difference here in my opinion.

Interesting reading guys. :rolleyes:

Tip, good point! IMHO the absolute worst truck drivers are those that are "paid by the load". Logging trucks are the worst. They will run your a$$ over in order to squeeze one more run into a day. :o: I came over a bridge the other day with the 5ver in tow only to find a freakin' tree in the road that had bounced off one of the trucks. Yeah, they are still sticks that can slide off! :rant: Fortunately it wasn't crossways in the lane so I was able to maneuver around it.

jmg343, seek professional :help2: ! ):h JJ :)