please Help!!!!!

Now the story comes out in a different post than the last one I replied to.:D

The answer is no. Mine is in the shop today getting new injectors and as you may notice by my sig line I have one. I was there when the tech 2 was hooked up and there was no evidence present

The service manager says there will be a regional tech there with a scan tool of some sort tomorrow, so far they have told me that their computer says it has had a chip in it. i call B.S.!!

I think they're bluffing. Keep your poker face on, and call.

For sure, I will deny till i die! There is nothing aftermarket at all on the truck right now, it even has the stock air box and filter back on it.

Even if they can prove there was- that's not reason for denying warranty unless they can prove it caused the failure. If you have a cracked piston or rings that might apply but for other things it would be difficult if not impossible to prove.

The turbo broke and pumped 10 quarts of oil in the intake while it was running off at 6grand.

Were you running any kind of aftermarket boost controller?
The turbo broke and pumped 10 quarts of oil in the intake while it was running off at 6grand.

yep, it is bone stock now though.

used oil makes good high rpm diesel fuel!

With the failure you had - they will probably use a bore scope see the signs of a tuner in the cylinder indicating an aftermarket tuner and deny the warranty. Doesn't sound like you will have a leg to stand on in that case - especially with a blown turbo and run away motor.

With the failure you had - they will probably use a bore scope see the signs of a tuner in the cylinder indicating an aftermarket tuner and deny the warranty. Doesn't sound like you will have a leg to stand on in that case - especially with a blown turbo and run away motor.

I dont know what they are going to be able to see. the Duramax is known for spotting the cylinder walls even with no tuner at all. I would call their bluff. make them prove to you that they know what they are talking about.........

If ya broke it, ya broke it. Gotta pay to play.

Trust me, they can't tell. They will make up a line of Bull**** a mile long about different ways they can tell if you had a programmer. Anything they find inside the engine that looks suspicious you can simply remind them that its not going to look normal because it was running on engine oil at 6000 RPM or whatever it was. I have been through situations like this before with the dealer, just don't admit anything and you will be fine.

Toolman, be carefull of what you post here as GM has eyes and are not above searching these pages for info.

Plus some of the GM techs on here could be true blue and try to report you, luckily I don't see a locsation in your profile which may be good for you.

Merle

yea hope they dont check your garage. it has very unique featers and a licence tag to trace.

I dont know what they are going to be able to see. the Duramax is known for spotting the cylinder walls even with no tuner at all. I would call their bluff. make them prove to you that they know what they are talking about.........


yep they all have spots. Part of the induction hardening process IIRC.

FWIW, stock engines have the "flower power" pattern on the piston too.

the LMM is the only duramax so far that they can tell if it is, or has been chipped or modified at all.

the LMM is the only duramax so far that they can tell if it is, or has been chipped or modified at all.


I dont beleive that.

I dont beleive that.

They could get a key/count/flash trace like Dodge uses. Believe me they can.

At least DC does with Cummins on their 04.5 and up Dodges.;)

Wether or not GM has coded or enabled the feature is not known at this time.

Harness boxes cannot be proven:D

They could get a key/count/flash trace like Dodge uses. Believe me they can.

At least DC does with Cummins on their 04.5 and up Dodges.;)

Wether or not GM has coded or enabled the feature is not known at this time.

Harness boxes cannot be proven:D

and the van aaken isnt a harness box Juice??? :p::D


yes, if something is flashed into the ECM, it can technically be traced, all dmax's can do this. (the LMM's have the same ECM as the LBZ so Im not sure who gave Groot mis-information tho).

But is it likely you will be caught? No. Because Ive tuned trucks that went into the dealer for other issues. I left the tune in the ECM and they couldnt find anything. They even "looked for the presence of a chip".

ben

yep they all have spots. Part of the induction hardening process IIRC.

FWIW, stock engines have the "flower power" pattern on the piston too.

Since stock engines have the flower pattern, What are some other internal signs of a chip being/been used? Is the spots it?

They could get a key/count/flash trace like Dodge uses. Believe me they can.

At least DC does with Cummins on their 04.5 and up Dodges.;)

Wether or not GM has coded or enabled the feature is not known at this time.

Harness boxes cannot be proven:D

Good Info. Always wondered about the other company's on tracing programmers...

and the van aaken isnt a harness box Juice??? :p::D


yes, if something is flashed into the ECM, it can technically be traced, all dmax's can do this. (the LMM's have the same ECM as the LBZ so Im not sure who gave Groot mis-information tho).

But is it likely you will be caught? No. Because Ive tuned trucks that went into the dealer for other issues. I left the tune in the ECM and they couldnt find anything. They even "looked for the presence of a chip".

ben
I said that didn't I?:o:

Pont is, DC has enabled a key counter on the CTD. It counts the key cycles and ECM writes KC between flashes, so they can back track to last service and flash through STAR.:D

Make sure the tranny is not throwing any codes.

I dont beleive that.

heard it in a gm duramax training course...

Since stock engines have the flower pattern, What are some other internal signs of a chip being/been used?..


bent rods, melted pistons

Juice- My bad, I misred your post...im dumb. :D:o: :duh:

heard it in a gm duramax training course...


they are wrong because the LBZ and LMM have the same bosch e35/edc16 ECM. If the LMM can do it, than the LBZ can do it. So "only the LMM can do it" doesnt make sense.

ALL duramax's can do it. Pretty much any engine with a computer can.

NO duramax can detect a harness box (edge, van aaken, banks).

Juice- My bad, I misred your post...im dumb. :D:o: :duh:

LOL, I'm first though!:D

they are wrong because the LBZ and LMM have the same bosch e35/edc16 ECM. If the LMM can do it, than the LBZ can do it. So "only the LMM can do it" doesnt make sense.

ALL duramax's can do it. Pretty much any engine with a computer can.

NO duramax can detect a harness box (edge, van aaken, banks).

forgot we were talkin about a box here sorry my mistake. but, I brought my lbz in with the ppe previously in it and they couldn't tell sh**. my friend here at school has an lmm with a superchips in it...they new it had something in it, we both took our programmers out before we went...explain that one to me. i find it hard to believe that a gm diesel technician training course faced specifically towards the lmm was wrong about their own product...but yes a box is undetectable and im sorry i misread. and i mean no disrespect towards an admin but c'mon it was a gm rep.

and also i apologize for stealing the thread:)

I am going to end this confusion now. Look in my sig line.....Removed mine thursday last week, new injectors installed Tuesday this week. NO PROBLEM.

forgot we were talkin about a box here sorry my mistake. but, I brought my lbz in with the ppe previously in it and they couldn't tell sh**. my friend here at school has an lmm with a superchips in it...they new it had something in it, we both took our programmers out before we went...explain that one to me. i find it hard to believe that a gm diesel technician training course faced specifically towards the lmm was wrong about their own product...but yes a box is undetectable and im sorry i misread. and i mean no disrespect towards an admin but c'mon it was a gm rep.


Yes thats what I meant, they cant tell if there is a box. I said they COULD tell with a programmer.

that being said, three trucks that I tuned went into the dealer (injectors, I forget the other two reasons) with the tune still in and they had no idea.

the course was of course correct in that they can tell with a programmer.

dont hesitate to call me out ever, Ive been wrong dozens and dozens of times before...its how we all learn, by making mistakes!! :) ;)

Ben

It's an interesting topic. Where I work they don't really care so much about people using programmers. I guess it depends on the dealer. I'm sure if a truck came in that was obviously abused the rep might get involved though. As far a being able to tell, GM definately know whats going on, and have published many bulletins for checking for damages caused by "hop-up" products. I'll tell you right now, if you take apart a duramax that has or has had a chip it's obvious. Different pattern on the pistons, and GM publishes pictures of such to "inform" techs. Maybe I'm lucky but my service manager isn't looking to bust balls, especially if it's a regular "good" customer. He usually looks the other way during warranty claims. With the new LMM's it tracks regens, and expects to see 1 every 300 miles or so. I have heard talk of a copy of this data being sent to GM for certain claims (ie. dpf) and claim may bounce if numbers don't jive (ie. counter shows only 3 regens done with 9300 miles.)
Personally I can't wait to rip off my POS dpf.

GMs methods are not 100% accurate; the only surfire way to tell of a programmer are pistons that are actually melted, or bent rods.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c247/penguin1494/IMG_4860Custom.jpg

that is a piston from a bone stock LB7 that I took apart a while ago.

Please, keep us updated on what happens with your truck:).

This is a very interesting topic that is being discussed, in the mean time, Can GM really tell if there has been a programmer?

BTW, nice picture of the stock lb7 engine

Wow that sucks. I would deny it up and down. Besides just giving an instance, what would they do if you bought the truck used and the other owner claimed it to be never touched when really he ran a really hot tune, etc and beat the snot of it, they cant expect a buyer to be well educated and know what signs to look for? 6000rpm WOW so what else do you think happend? Valves, spun bearings???

GMs methods are not 100% accurate; the only surfire way to tell of a programmer are pistons that are actually melted, or bent rods.



that is a piston from a bone stock LB7 that I took apart a while ago.

You know it's funny, the picture that you just posted looks ALOT like the picture's they were posting 'this is what you piston looks like on a tuner' doesnt it? I think you hit the nail on the head when you said they're not 100% accurate.

what is a ZF6?

what is a ZF6?

Manual 6 speed trans. That was a option with the duramax instead of the Allison.

what is a ZF6?

A ZF6 is the standard transmission in the Duramax trucks.

Just as a heads up GM can tell. But in order for them to know for sure you must show like 3 of 5 signs of wear to confirm that you have a "power up device". In order to do that they must pull you engine apart to check many thing to include the bearings and under side of the piston. I am going through this with GM right now.

You know it's funny, the picture that you just posted looks ALOT like the picture's they were posting 'this is what you piston looks like on a tuner' doesnt it? I think you hit the nail on the head when you said they're not 100% accurate.
I dont remember seeing any pics like that in the tsb. Im gonna go look at it right now.

it has pics of cracked pistons, melted pistons, crosshatching completly worn off cyl walls,oil coking on underside of pistons, and piston pin bore damage. no pictures of the normal piston like the previous post.

Weird I saw one in a post that looked alot like what he posted. I wish i could find it to show everyone.

this is an interesting part of the tsb:

Engine Premature Wear and Breakdown Due to Improper Function of Fuel Injector
A fuel injector may fracture a piston or melt a piston but the damage will be limited to that cylinder only and all other pistons and cylinder walls are OK. In some cases hydraulic lock will occur on the suspected cylinder with an over-fueling fuel injector. Hydraulic lock on the suspected cylinder will cause a bent connecting rod. This can be verified with piston protrusion measurements.

Important: Copy aftermarket power-up kit check list when performing an engine disassembly investigation of overpower engine breakdown or non-function.

Aftermarket Power-Up Kit Check List
Piston cracked parallel to wrist pin.
• Piston cracked in lip area.

• Hole in piston connecting top of piston to oil cooling channel.

Melted Pistons.
• Lip of combustion bowl melted.

• Top of piston melted / missing.

Cross hatching polished off cylinder wall. Cylinder wall missing crosshatch on major thrust face of cylinder below ring belt travel.
Piston pin bore, Wrist pin, and Rod bushing.
• Scoring in upper piston pin boss/black discoloration/oil coking.

• Wrist Pin Wear.

• Rod bushing surface worn and discolored.

Carbon coking to underside of piston.
• Discoloration of underside of Piston.

• Discoloration and carbon coking buildup on underside of piston between piston pin bosses.

Accelerated rod / Main Bearing wear.
• Fretting on backside of bearing.

• Bearing surface distressed.

How to handle an engine failure suspected due to a power up Device.
Dealers should not automatically decline warranty assistance on engine failures due to the fact that a power-up device or modification is evident or suspected. The technician must identify that the failure is due to a power-up device by teardown analysis and diagnosis of the engine components. The following steps should be taken if an engine failure occurs and it is suspected that the modification or addition of a power-up device maybe the cause of the engine failure. If unclear of this process or direction feel free to contact your District Service Manager (DVM) (in Canada, DSM) for further support.

The technician should use proper engine diagnostics to lead him/her to the failed engine components. The attached check sheet should be followed and if it is determined that at least three of the check sheet items match the engine component failures then it can be decided that the failure is not a warrantable claim.
Engine failures that meet at least three criteria of the check sheet are considered failures that are not manufacturers defects in workmanship or materials
The dealership should contact the PQC, open a case to review the findings and make the final decision on warranty coverage. The DVM (in Canada, DSM) should be notified of the PQC decision.
Denied claims should be documented as follows:
a. The check sheet completed with the technicians detailed written findings of his diagnosis on the repair order.

b. Photographs of the failed parts should be maintained in the RO file.

The customer should be advised that the failure of their engine was not due to a manufacturer's defect in workmanship or materials and therefore the warranty claim is denied on this failure.

this is an interesting part of the tsb:

Engine Premature Wear and Breakdown Due to Improper Function of Fuel Injector
A fuel injector may fracture a piston or melt a piston but the damage will be limited to that cylinder only and all other pistons and cylinder walls are OK. In some cases hydraulic lock will occur on the suspected cylinder with an over-fueling fuel injector. Hydraulic lock on the suspected cylinder will cause a bent connecting rod. This can be verified with piston protrusion measurements.

Important: Copy aftermarket power-up kit check list when performing an engine disassembly investigation of overpower engine breakdown or non-function.

Aftermarket Power-Up Kit Check List
Piston cracked parallel to wrist pin.
• Piston cracked in lip area.

• Hole in piston connecting top of piston to oil cooling channel.

Melted Pistons.
• Lip of combustion bowl melted.

• Top of piston melted / missing.

Cross hatching polished off cylinder wall. Cylinder wall missing crosshatch on major thrust face of cylinder below ring belt travel.
Piston pin bore, Wrist pin, and Rod bushing.
• Scoring in upper piston pin boss/black discoloration/oil coking.

• Wrist Pin Wear.

• Rod bushing surface worn and discolored.

Carbon coking to underside of piston.
• Discoloration of underside of Piston.

• Discoloration and carbon coking buildup on underside of piston between piston pin bosses.

Accelerated rod / Main Bearing wear.
• Fretting on backside of bearing.

• Bearing surface distressed.

How to handle an engine failure suspected due to a power up Device.
Dealers should not automatically decline warranty assistance on engine failures due to the fact that a power-up device or modification is evident or suspected. The technician must identify that the failure is due to a power-up device by teardown analysis and diagnosis of the engine components. The following steps should be taken if an engine failure occurs and it is suspected that the modification or addition of a power-up device maybe the cause of the engine failure. If unclear of this process or direction feel free to contact your District Service Manager (DVM) (in Canada, DSM) for further support.

The technician should use proper engine diagnostics to lead him/her to the failed engine components. The attached check sheet should be followed and if it is determined that at least three of the check sheet items match the engine component failures then it can be decided that the failure is not a warrantable claim.
Engine failures that meet at least three criteria of the check sheet are considered failures that are not manufacturers defects in workmanship or materials
The dealership should contact the PQC, open a case to review the findings and make the final decision on warranty coverage. The DVM (in Canada, DSM) should be notified of the PQC decision.
Denied claims should be documented as follows:
a. The check sheet completed with the technicians detailed written findings of his diagnosis on the repair order.

b. Photographs of the failed parts should be maintained in the RO file.

The customer should be advised that the failure of their engine was not due to a manufacturer's defect in workmanship or materials and therefore the warranty claim is denied on this failure.

Thanks for sharing that. I'm curious why a Service Manager or Tech would even care. Does GM give them brownie points or is there a financial inducement. Especially if the customer played the game and came in stock looking without a bunch of racing stickers and such plastered all over his truck denying everything:cool:

Thanks for sharing that. I'm curious why a Service Manager or Tech would even care. Does GM give them brownie points or is there a financial inducement. Especially if the customer played the game and came in stock looking without a bunch of racing stickers and such plastered all over his truck denying everything:cool:

They care because GM only gives them so much for a motor change labor and parts wise; us customers pay quite a bit more.

They care because GM only gives them so much for a motor change labor and parts wise; us customers pay quite a bit more.
you nailed it. warranty work hurts us in the pocket and if its abuse it shouldnt be covered. you want a hot rod buy one.

and... if the dealer covers it and gm says NO then that dealer just ate the cost of the engine and labor.

-:tyou nailed it. warranty work hurts us in the pocket and if its abuse it shouldnt be covered. you want a hot rod buy one.

Take Note:wtf:

you nailed it. warranty work hurts us in the pocket and if its abuse it shouldnt be covered. you want a hot rod buy one.

We did buy a hotrod.

It just happens to be a Corvette disguised as a picup truck with an 8ft bed on it.

Heavy emphasis on 'PICKUP' because it really gets with the program when you step on it.

Seriously. If GM wanted to be 100% sure, they could lock out the ECM quite easily. It's not rocket science.
But they don't. Public key decrypt algorithm, and number of SW interlocks/translators.
They could also make the bale connectors fiberchannel or 1000Mbit, or even optical. (dongle to reflash GMPP only part etc)
But they don't.

To a point, if you play, you pay, but how much warranty money is BUILT INTO the initial price the customer pays?
You would be suprised to know that ALL WARRANTIES a manufacturer underwrites are PAID FOR by the consumer UP FRONT in the purchase price.
Wether you need it.... or not.

Try this on for size.
Go into a dealership AND TRY to buy a new truck without a warranty of any kind. Good luck on that one. With the option of getting a 5000+ warranty rebate, knowing you are going to mod your ride, who wouldn't?

We did buy a hotrod.


Seriously. If GM wanted to be 100% sure, they could lock out the ECM quite easily. It's not rocket science.
But they don't. Public key decrypt algorithm, and number of SW interlocks/translators.
They could also make the bale connectors fiberchannel or 1000Mbit, or even optical. (dongle to reflash GMPP only part etc)
But they don't.

how much more would all that make the vehicle cost would you pay$60k instaed of the 45 0r 50k you paid??its a cost issue

Try this on for size.
Go into a dealership AND TRY to buy a new truck without a warranty of any kind. Good luck on that one. With the option of getting a 5000+ warranty rebate, knowing you are going to mod your ride, who wouldn't?


and $1500 of every new car goes to the idiot assemblers retirement benifits too. im not against getting you truck fixed under warranty but if you add tuners to make it have hp and torqe it wasnt designed to handle why should gm pay for it. just like all these guys i read about with ridiculous boost pressure blowing out seals in turbo then trying to warranty it, the turbo would have lasted 100k or more if ran at normal boost. maybe gm should give you the option of warranty it could save them millions.

maybe gm should give you the option of warranty it could save them millions.


I don't think it would save them. It would probably cost them millions.

Out of all the diesel truck sales (just picking one demographic here) how many get modded? How many use up the warranty $$$ that was factored into the cost of the truck?

What does GM do with the leftover $$$$ per vehicle that never gets spent?

i think GM should stand behind their warranty, or build a motor that will handle mods better. I ran the guts out of my 03 cummins for 100K miles, with every mod i could get my hands on. B1 turbo, downloader-150 horse, module-100 horse, 150 horse injectors, methanol, intake, exhaust, 37 inch tires, etc. I never let up on it! and motor never missed a lick. It did take a rear end, several clutches, and the stock turbo took a crap, but you gotta expect a few weak links to break.

i think GM should stand behind their warranty, or build a motor that will handle mods better. I ran the guts out of my 03 cummins for 100K miles, with every mod i could get my hands on. B1 turbo, downloader-150 horse, module-100 horse, 150 horse injectors, methanol, intake, exhaust, 37 inch tires, etc. I never let up on it! and motor never missed a lick. It did take a rear end, several clutches, and the stock turbo took a crap, but you gotta expect a few weak links to break.
You so just contradicted yourself there...
They made the truck with certain operating characteristics in mind. We're lucky we have the freeplay we do with it in my opinion... If they just engineered it for 500 horsepower it'd just come from the factory w/ 500 horsepower and we'd mod it again...

I'm obviously on the you gotta pay to play field. I'm ok with it, and with that in mind even w/ efilive and my stock tranny I'm VERY careful with the kind of power the truck's capable of.
I'm sorry for your misfortune, I know I would be heartbroken if it was my truck, but I wouldnt personally be blaming anyone but myself.

You so just contradicted yourself there...
They made the truck with certain operating characteristics in mind. We're lucky we have the freeplay we do with it in my opinion... If they just engineered it for 500 horsepower it'd just come from the factory w/ 500 horsepower and we'd mod it again...

I'm obviously on the you gotta pay to play field. I'm ok with it, and with that in mind even w/ efilive and my stock tranny I'm VERY careful with the kind of power the truck's capable of.
I'm sorry for your misfortune, I know I would be heartbroken if it was my truck, but I wouldnt personally be blaming anyone but myself.

COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF. Broken parts are only as much at fault as the person on the go pedal. we have all broken things, and I would be willing to bet 90% of us that have broke them have said very shortly therafter, "boy I wish I had never done that"

was wondering how many of the clutches dodge payed for? i used to be a service manager and dident care what was added to the trucks we serviced if the customer was a good customer and dident show ther a$$ when they came in it got fixed all they have to do is put the right ansers in the right blanks and the claim gets payed 99% of the time. but if they showed thier a$$ i usually showed them the door,and most of the time couldent get them back in for at least a couple of weeks or more.

I paid for ALL of the fixes on the dodge, because I did push them too hard. The Dmax never got pushed!@

The Cummins pulled a 14K trailer all over creation durring the day and pulled sleds and made quarter mile passes at night! For 100K miles.

the LMM is the only duramax so far that they can tell if it is, or has been chipped or modified at all.

I dont beleive that.


heard it in a gm duramax training course...

I back GROOT on this one. It is the first and won't be the last. New Tech 2 software is coming out that will allow us to see the last 10 times it has been programmed and what not. Also confirmed this with a field engineer.

I back GROOT on this one. It is the first and won't be the last. New Tech 2 software is coming out that will allow us to see the last 10 times it has been programmed and what not. Also confirmed this with a field engineer.

no its not the first. Any duramax or Gen III/IV V8 can show this. Ask steve cole or anyone else who has spent a long time dissassembling GM's ecm code. :rolleyes:

The LBZ and LMM have the same ECM do they not. So what makes the LMM so special? I have the newest tech 2 software and nothing looks different to me.

There is no way to tell if a harness box has been installed or not. The only thing it could say with this is "the bale connectors have been disconnected". And you say "yeah so what, I disconnected my batteries or my battery went dead, ok?". Dealer cant do anything.

ben

no its not the first. Any duramax or Gen III/IV V8 can show this. Ask steve cole or anyone else who has spent a long time dissassembling GM's ecm code. :rolleyes:

The LBZ and LMM have the same ECM do they not. So what makes the LMM so special? I have the newest tech 2 software and nothing looks different to me.

There is no way to tell if a harness box has been installed or not. The only thing it could say with this is "the bale connectors have been disconnected". And you say "yeah so what, I disconnected my batteries or my battery went dead, ok?". Dealer cant do anything.

ben

I'm just relaying what i heard when i called gm for programming errors. I also confirmed it after talking with a field engineer. It will be data in the tech 2 that will tell you when it was reprogrammed.... I understand you can look right now and changes but no details... just numbers. So this will make it so ALL techs will be able to see. It will also record torque output...

Reverse a few of the earlier questions. If YOU designed and built something, sold a bunch to the general public, they souped up the product and broke it, then brought it back to YOU and said fix it on YOUR own nickle. Would YOU just penny up and pay for the repairs even though the person who bought it modified it and broke it. It's like the old saying, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. Translated, "don't tune it unless you're willing to fix it if it breaks". I'm thinking of getting a tuner for economy only, and I'm weighing the option of just saying to hell with the engine warranty. It depends I guess on what broke and whether it was in any way tuner related.

Any update on this Toolman? What are you at mileage wise?