How can you tell (or guess) the kingpin weight? I just finished loading my 45' 5th wheel, and have about 1000-1500# or stuff in the front of the trailer. Next I have to put the car in (about 3500-3700#). Right now, the truck is sitting down about 3", and there is about 1" between the rubber stopper on the frame and the axle.

Should I place the car so that the truck is sitting down about the same 3" (probably 50% of the car over the axles).

I guestimate that the GCVW will be somewhere abound 19,000# (truck and trailer). Are 5th wheels designed so that only a % of the total weight of the trailer will end up at the kingpin?

Thanks

5th wheels usually have 15 to 25 percent of the weight of the trailer on the kingpin. The only way to tell how much is there is to weight it. If the scale gives you the axle weights, do one pass with the trailer and the re-weigh with the truck alone. The change in the truck axle weights will be the pin weight. If the scale only gives you a gross weight, Pull up until the truck is off the scale and get a weight of the trailer axles. Then drop the landing gear (on the scale) and lift the weight off the truck for the second reading. The change will be the pin weight. If you are dropping 3 inches, you are probably too heavy on the pin and may be over the rating for the rear tires. That is just a guess based on my truck. Find a scale and see. Then play with the load position and keep it between the 15 to 25 percent pin.

45 foot, that is one long 5ver guy. You will find with a triple axle trailer your pin will change when you load that car in the back, sort of a see-saw effect which will increase the GVW but lessen the pin weight which may result in bucking. That is a considerable amount of weight on the rear end/axle.:rolleyes:

What kind of rig is this? Has to be triple axle! If this is a new rig you may want to go to the RV dealership loaded and let them make necessary adjustments. This is supposed to be their area of expertise, that is if they know what they are doing. Find a good service department and stick with them.

Oh yeah what case680e said. JJ :)

Just got from New York to Missouri with the trailer... I'll post pics later after I recover.

It's a Haulmark Elite II trailer (Tripple Axle).

I know it was HEAVY.... BUT...

When I first hooked the trailer up, there was about 3/4-1" between the axle and the rubber "bumper" on the frame. After driving, When I stopped and looked, the "bumper" was riding the axle http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif...

SO....

I put it on one of the CAT scales along I-70

What it said was:

Steer Axle: 4440
Drive Axle : 7920 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif
Trailer Axle: 10400
Gross Weight: 22760 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif

Now, there is NO WAY IN H*** that traieler weighs 16,000 lbs.

I weighed most of the boxes individually, and with the exception of maybe 6 or so weiging between 40 and 65 lbs, all the boxes with about 505lbs.

When I first "guesdtimated" the load of household "stuff", I took the weight of my single heaviest box (about 66lbs), counted the number of boxes I had, added half a dozen boxes, and multipliesd the number by the 66lb weight.

That gave me a weight of about 1900 lbs, ASSUMING EVERY box weighed 66lbs.

Most where between 30 and 45, with a few less than 10.

Now, add the car.

Title weight is 3555, but I just put in a new enxing with an aluminum block and composite intake, so subtract about 150, then probably add it back for fluids (about 4 or less Gal Gas, Oil, Coolant, etc). I would guess about 4000, or less with the stuff I had in it (27" TV Being the heaviest).

So again, ASSuming that ALL Boxes weigh 66lbs, 1980lbs.
Desk - 100lbs or so
Gun cabinet, 75lbs or so

That MOST of the stuff.

We're only at 6155 or so in cargo (probably less), a little over 2000 lbs below the trailers max payload.

The trailer should only weigh about 13,000 or less.

Ok... That being said,

I put the truck in the next scale empty.

Steer Axle: 4440
Drive Axle : 3200
Trailer Axle : 00 (Duh)
Gross Weight : 7640

Sounds about right for the empty truck.

I moved the car back about 4' and tied it back down.

Moved to the next scale. Looked at the "bumpers" and saw that after riding, I now still have about 3/4 - 1" between the rubber and the axle (didn't before I moved the car).

Now I get:

Steer Axle : 4400
Drive Axle : 7520 (still http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Trailer Axle : 10780
Gross weight : 22700 (Still http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif)

Now, I think that if there actually was 4320 lbs sitting on the kingpin, there would be NO space between the bumper and the axle.

Like I said, There is NO WAY that the stuff inside can add up to 9000 Lbs.
The only way I can see the trailer weighing that much is if every scrap of wood in the trailer is soaked to the core with water, or someone decided to weld lead bricks into the trailer...

Somethings amiss... and I'm tired...

I woild appreciate some insight to what's up here...

Thanks

That looks about right. A 1" gap is about 4,000 lbs. So I believe the scale.

Turn the car around, engine to the back of the trailer. BTW most cars wheigh in over 4000 lbs. Trailer will be 4,000 - 5,000 empty My 18' dump trailer is 7,500.

The car, with the new engine has almost 50/50 weight distribution, plus the stuff in the back seat and the trunk, so turning it around wouldn't change anything (would actually put more weight in front of the axles because of the stuff in the back seat and trunk).
Based on what others that have the same maks/model car I have, it probably would weigh around 3700 stock (iron block/aluminum intake, no driver). So, as I said, with the new engine, Probably quite close to 3550-3600 emply with almost no fuel and no driver).

According to Haulmark, the traielr should weigh about 6700 empty.

The thing is I can't see any way for the rest of the stuff to weigh that much, based on the weights I know, and my over-guestimating overall weight.

"According to Haulmark, the traielr should weigh about 6700 empty."


Maybe the 1 is missing so it should read 16700. JMO.
Ben

Cougar, is your unit Model #GGN845RT3? If so, the GVWR for that trailer is 15k lbs (3 5k lb axles). The base weight is 6780 with a payload capacity of 8220lbs. IMHO 4900lbs pin weight is a bit much for a 2500 SRW. Moving the vehicle back 4' only brought 400lbs off the pin, not the total GVW. 2 different scales within 70 lbs of each other is a fairly decent read wouldn't you say Fingers? Not sure what to tell you Cougar.

It is a nice looking trailer! JJ :)

It's an ETF85X45WR3. It is 15k GVW, and the base weight sounds right.

It didn't give me a lick of trouble towing. Aside from being quite a bit slower than empty, on the highway, it was almost like it wasn't there.

I was quite surprised by the pin weight and will have to look and see if it's even remotley possible for all my stuff to be 5k. I have my doubts...

Can anything be done to a 2500HD SRW to make it handle a heavier pin weight? Since the 3500SRW can handle more weight with different tires, would that be an option (Although I don't want to loose the Aluminum rims... I doubt the steel can really be stronger than the solid aluminum).

What I plan in the future is possibly two cars to go to meets or races. Would having one car all the way in the back and the second right in front of it balance out the trailer and reduce the pin weight, or figure out where one car should sit to reduce the pin weight, but still maintain enough weight on the hitch for stability?

Cougar,
The 22,700 total weight doesn't bother me. It just will be a little slower to get up to speed and need more room to stop. The rear axle is a problem. Your stock LT245R75 are only rated for 3042 pounds each, or 6084 for the axle. At 7920 pounds, you were 1846 pounds over the max load rating. This is a blow-out waiting to happen. As loaded, the trailer was 15,120 pounds. 15% minimum pin weight times 15,120 is 2268 pounds minimum recommended pin weight. Empty axle weight of 3200 plus 2268 of pin weight is 5468 pounds on the axle. This is 616 pounds under the tire ratings. It can be done if you can the weight farther back in the trailer. Keep moving it back until the truck axle is between 5468 and 6084 pounds. Moving up to 19.5 inch tires in load range F or G will get the tire/wheel ratings up and air bags can keep the truck level, but you are on your own if you make these mods. Adding another car will put you above 24,000 pounds and into the CDL license range. When you get the trailer emptied, get it weighed. It sounds like it is a lot heavier than you thought.

Like Case said, the limiting factor is the tires. One of the reasons I went with the tire/rim combination I did was the load rating. The 2500 axle has same capacity as the 3500 but has been downrated due to the tires. My tires are rated at 3,500 lbs each giving me a reasonable comfort zone. Air bags keep it from squatting too much.

If you take the time to learn how much your truck squats with a given load, you will be able to load the trailer and know your tongue weight by sight. You already know that at ~1" spaceing is 4,000 lbs. On my truck, a 3" drop at the bumper is ~3,000 lbs with the bags deflated.

Now this thread is going to get interesting!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/hihi.gif SRW 2500 towing above GVWR/GCWR/GAWR is going to get some attention. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Cougar, this issue has been hashed out several times on other threads. You might want to read some of those to gain some additional intel. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif But since we're here I'll throw my .02 cents worth into the discussion.

I'm a firm believer in safety, safety, safety! I'm from the old school of not pushing any tow vehicle at or above its uppermost limits on the presumption that everything will work 100% of the time. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/redface.gif Anyone that has had their trailer harness separate from the tow vehicle knows what I'm talking about - HANG ON! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif Admittedly I have been upwards of 25k lbs GCW towing with my 3500 which is above GCWR on my dually. This is why I went with a dually for those few times this might happen, sorta like insurance!

Cougar, where you plan to pull this trailer has a lot to do with how safe it is. If you will be pulling through mountains or long up/down grades IMHO you are overweight/undertrucked. You did say you were going to add an additional car, so say another 4k lbs above your previous run plus any incidentals you will need for that car. So you were at 22700lbs before, add another 4k lbs (+-) and you are up to 27000lbs GCW. HHHHMMMMMMMMMM? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

You stated that when you weighed your truck it was "unloaded" meaning no people, luggage, full fuel tank(?), etc. If you travel by yourself with one suitcase the weight difference is negligible. If you normally take your wife, buddies, kids, ??? you best figure another 800-1000lbs of weight on the truck. OK, by now you'z guys see where I'm going with this. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Yes a 2500 and 3500 have the same engine/tranny/axle, but there are reasons for using one over the other: weight! Each vehicle is designed for a particular application for a reason. No problem going forwards/backwards with this rig, it's those emergent situations where you may have to go side-to-side in evasive maneuvers while trying to brake that I cringe to think about. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif

There is a reason you see dually trucks that tow heavy, not just increased load capacity, but rearend stability. Does this mean a dually never loses control of a load, absolutely not! Just an increased margin of safety and stability. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif

JJ's off his soapbox! Cougar, I'm so glad to see you posting on the DP with your questions and concerns. Most people just strap a load on with absolutely no idea of what their vehicles can really tow. Hats off to the others posting as well. I learn something everytime we engage in these discussions. A few weeks back I saw a Ford Explorer flipped over compliments of a dual axle trailer they were towing. There are so many variables that go into towing safely, load distribution is as important as the tow vehicle. Sounds like you have your work cut out for you! Good luck. JJ http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

I definatley need to get the trailer weighed empty soon. Anyone know of a truck scale on I-70 near O'Fallon, MO that I haven't seen? I keep thinking about the stuff I have in it (besides the car), and I still cannot come up with 5000#.

Before I even got the trailer, I took the weights of the boxes I knew, and added more to the number of boxes I had, and multiplied by the heaviest box (remember, they don't all weigh 66#, most are aroung 30#). That number came out to just under 2000#. I added this number to the weight of the car, and at that point, I was still WELL under the max load at 6000#.

I think I'll have to call Haulmark on Monday too...

When I saw those weights, I almost had a stroke.. As far as a second car, if two cars are in the trailer, it would be just them.

As far as having two cars, the weight should be 7600ish (both MN12 Cougars), and ASSUMING the trailer actually weighs the 6700ish it's supposed to, the GVW of the trailer SHOULD be around 14,300ish. ASSUMING that is true, I would still be well under CDL weights. Even the possibility of having two cars is still well down the road, as I don't have two right now. Just thinking about the possibility in the future.

I think you mis-judged the weight of the boxes. I bet they were put in nearest the truck too. Moving the car 4' back only dropped the tongue weight 400 lbs.

Cougar281, had you not proceeded from one scale to another with almost the exact same weights you might suspect the scales. I agree with Fingers, what's in those boxes? Before you load anything into the trailer the truck and trailer combined weigh in around 15k lbs. That is one heavy trailer! :o

The weight adds up very quickly. Most people have no idea what their gross combined weight is, IGNORANCE IS BLISS! :( Given how heavy you posted before adding the second car you are going to be considerably heavier than you initially planned. Good luck! JJ

Oops, forgot one thing. Depending upon the manufacturing process used, aftermarket aluminum rims can be weaker than steel, especially for towing applications. They should be load rated. Check em out! JJ

Cougar, I did the same thing as Fingers with the Tires and Air Bags to help out. I also know that my trailer weighs over 1600# more than what the manufacture said (another thread)! The worst part is that it's all up front and on the pin. I'll probably have the axles moved forward this year to compensate as they have almost 2000# capacity left in them when I have it fully loaded. My goal is to get at least 1000# off of the pin.
JJ has a good point about the stability being better with the dually though. When I bought my truck, it was based off of what I believed my load requirements would be. Unfortunately, with the trailer weighing more than posted, and my figureing of my load off by about 1000#, I got shot in the foot.

Like Dave says, loading the cars further aft will help. Bigger tires and wheels may help handling and prevent blowouts but you are also overloading the axle, wheel bearings, brakes, suspension and frame. With a long bed, you can shift some of the pin weight to the front axle by relocating the fifth wheel 4" to 6" ahead of the rear axle. I always ran a 4" forward location on my long bed. Now I have a short bed and have a slider mounted at center which prevents getting any of the pin weight up front.:(

Here's an update to my overweight saga:
I finally got EVERYTHING weighed.

The car weighed 4180 with everything that was in it PLUS me, so it weighed about 4040.
EVERYTHING else in the trailer weighed in at 2375.

4040 + 2375 = 6415

In case you don't remember my weigh slips:
Steer: 4440
Drive: 7920
Trailer: 10400
Gross: 22760

The truck, without the trialer, with me, wieghed 7640
The trailer SHOULD weigh about 6780 according to haulmark (We'll say 6800)
6800 + 4040 + 2375 = 13215
13215 + 7640 = 20855.

I've got some mystery weight here (almost 2000#). I think I'll have to call Haulmark.

A word of caution. Something that has not been mentioned, nor, it seems , been considered.

Shifting the weight to the rear may reflect a significant difference, when weighing the vehicle as a static weight. However, the heavier the braking, the more weight is being transmitted to the kingpin. This can overload the drive axle, rims or tire rated capacities, possibly 2:1 if the load is already above the rated weights. Blowing a single rear wheel, with a very heavy load in the bed, can be very costly (both medically and mechanically) to rectify.

Lets go back to the scrimmage line and consider punting! 27,000+ lbs is a lot of weight to bring to a standstill in an emergency when all conditions are at optimum. Add a few less than favorable conditions to the equasion for a moment, then ask yourself if you have enough truck for that 45' Haulmark.

You can and should call haulmark, and ask the questions about the trailer. But don't overlook their recommendations for a tow vehicle (don't tell them what you have, ask them what the minimum should be. After all, they are in the market to sell you trailers, not trucks).

When we looked at buying 16-18K lbs trailers, we automatically eliminated any of the pick-ups on the market. The next consideration was maneuverability, both loaded and unloaded, then cost. We then got the truck that will tow the trailer we intend to buy (it does not work the other way around, the trailer would have killed our 3/4-Ton).

The Quick Trip Truck port at Mid-Rivers has a scale. North side of I-70 at Mid-Rivers Mall Drive. Only about 5 miles east of O'Fallon.:) You have to pass the first entrance and take a right. Lines you right up with the scale. I think it is $8 or $9 for the first weigh then only a couple of bucks for the second within 24 hours. At least that's what I remember from my weigh in a year ago.

Hope this helps.

Bill

The Quick Trip Truck port at Mid-Rivers has a scale. North side of I-70 at Mid-Rivers Mall Drive. Only about 5 miles east of O'Fallon.:) You have to pass the first entrance and take a right. Lines you right up with the scale. I think it is $8 or $9 for the first weigh then only a couple of bucks for the second within 24 hours. At least that's what I remember from my weigh in a year ago.

Hope this helps.

Bill
That's the one I weighed the car at wnen I unloaded it...

Here's an update to my overweight saga:
I finally got EVERYTHING weighed.

The car weighed 4180 with everything that was in it PLUS me, so it weighed about 4040.
EVERYTHING else in the trailer weighed in at 2375.

4040 + 2375 = 6415

In case you don't remember my weigh slips:
Steer: 4440
Drive: 7920
Trailer: 10400
Gross: 22760

The truck, without the trialer, with me, wieghed 7640
The trailer SHOULD weigh about 6780 according to haulmark (We'll say 6800)
6800 + 4040 + 2375 = 13215
13215 + 7640 = 20855.

I've got some mystery weight here (almost 2000#). I think I'll have to call Haulmark.


According to your numbers the trailer weighs 10,400 plus the 4720# (using your number earlier for the weight of the drive axle without the trailer) on your kingpin which comes out to a trailer weight of 15,120# The trailer must be heavier than advertised.

Truck, RV, trailer and other manufacturers would never mis-represent their specifications just to increase sales! :lol:

Scales don't lie, manufacturers? :exactly: The variations in weight from the manufacturers specs and the scales is cause for concern? Most manufacturers specs are for a completely dry, spec unit, no options, zip! Start adding extra axles, a drop down rear door, and other options and you are adding weight. Yours does seem to be to the extreme though!

RF3, as usual good points! Safety first! JJ :)

Manufacutures (RV I know) rate thier trailers without any installed options. Do you have any ie. extra doors, bunks, kitchen?

Here's a weigh slip from a couple years ago (36' 5er), without the airbags I have now the rear would only drop 1.5".

Steer Axle 3980
Drive Axle 6100
Trailer Axle 11640
Gross Weight 21720

Oh well, just read JJ's last post and he already beat me to my own post. Never hurts to double state!

I found this website a couple weeks ago. They make a scale you can use to measure your kingpin weight.

http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm